Airbus Deliveries To US Carriers Being Halted?

etops1 · Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:41 pm

I have a friend who's in Toulouse right now and is part of a team delivering a brand new A330-200 for USAirways . Tail number N289AY. Come to find out the delivery was cancelled due to the US government shut down. It's apparently affecting all Airbus deliveries to US based carriers . Anyone heard of this ? It has something to do with the Aircraft being N registered and not being able to obtain a US license to fly the plane .

KarelXWB · Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:44 pm

Yeah, here's some more information:

http://twitter.com/jonostrower

Quote:
And then there were two: US Airways says Airbus A330-200 stranded in France due to government #shutdown

Quote:
About 30 US Airways employees in Toulouse now who won a charity auction to ferry home to CLT, now flying scheduled flights home this wkend.

Quote:
Background: Embraer, Bombardier & Airbus can all give airworthiness tickets to all its jets via ANAC, TC & EASA. Boeing through FAA.

StTim · Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:18 pm

Imagine the bleats if the EU stopped registering Boeing planes during the shutdown.

trex8 · Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:02 pm

Why can't US register it elsewhere at least temporarily? I realize there will be additional costs to re register later but who knows when the clowns in DC get their act together.at least US gets their plane .
Y

ordbosewr · Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:08 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 7):
But perhaps customers will postpone further payments until the plane can fly away.

Payment to who?

If you buy a car and because the state will not issue registration. Does the dealership care? not one bit. They are already paid.

If Boeing or Airbus have not received full payment for the plane then I have another issue, but I am sure they have it fully paid for before the customer gets the plane.

Now, if you are referencing Boeing/Airbus Financing arm, that is different. I am sure the Financing agreement has language to protect both the carrier and manufacturer.

So I guess, this is my long way of saying. Nope, don't buy it.

KarelXWB · Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:13 pm

Quoting ORDBOSEWR (Reply 14):
Does the dealership care? not one bit.

He won't, but I wouldn't pay until I can take my car home.

Quoting ORDBOSEWR (Reply 14):
They are already paid.

Not entirely true, final payments are usually made on the day of delivery. So customers could delay the scheduled delivery days.

par13del · Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:31 pm

Quoting StTim (Reply 3):
Imagine the bleats if the EU stopped registering Boeing planes during the shutdown.

As these are government services if the EU related government agencies are shut down I would expect the same delay in deliveries of Boeing a/c to countries in Europe.
At present it may even affect Boeing deliveries if the FAA has any final release paperwork to be done and those employees are already off the job.

The issue for US and other carriers is whether Airbus and the airports will have any sympathy and not charge storage fees.
I say they should because you can be assured that when the government re-opens claims will be coming in for damages.

cessna53996 · Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:03 pm

B6 was supposed to recieve their first A321 this week from Hamburg, but it has been postponed due to the government shutdown.

zeke · Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:43 pm

This should effect all deliveries to and from the US, Boeing cannot do the job of the FAA. At least Airbus can deliver to countries that do not rely on FAA airworthiness approval, which is most of the world.

GCT64 · Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:02 pm

There's more here on the impact of the shutdown:

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-ne...rloughs-threaten-boeing-deliveries

Including possible delays to 787 deliveries from Charleston.

rwy04lga · Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:49 pm

Quoting StTim (Reply 3):
Imagine the bleats if the EU stopped registering Boeing planes during the shutdown.

Why would Boeing care? They'll have their money (most of it, anyway), it's the EU carriers that won't have their airplanes.

blueflyer · Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:20 pm

Quoting etops1 (Thread starter):
I have a friend who's in Toulouse right now and is part of a team delivering a brand new A330-200 for USAirways . Tail number N289AY.

The DOT issued a plan well before the shutdown listing exactly which offices will remain open and which ones will be closed, so I am a bit surprised that the inability to fly a new plane into the US is news to US Airways or Airbus. Was that plan not clear enough, or did US Airways and Airbus forget to look at it?

Quoting trex8 (Reply 6):
Why can't US register it elsewhere at least temporarily?

Can aircraft not registered in the US operate commercial domestic flights though?

Quoting zeke (Reply 13):
At least Airbus can deliver to countries that do not rely on FAA airworthiness approval, which is most of the world.

While true, it is equally true that the global aviation market isn't made up of similarly-sized players. Airbus being unable to deliver to customers in the US is a far bigger deal than if it were affecting customers in, say Kazakhstan.

cmf · Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:36 pm

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 20):
Why would Boeing care? They'll have their money (most of it, anyway), it's the EU carriers that won't have their airplanes.

Why wouldn't Boeing care? Airline do not make final payment and take ownership of planes they can't fly out. Now Boeing need to find space to store all planes and then scramble to make all deliveries later on.

Fortunately we are at the beginning of quarter so the chances of deliveries not happening for this reporting period is small.

INFINITI329 · Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:47 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 9):
I say they should because you can be assured that when the government re-opens claims will be coming in for damages.

Whom will these claims be submitted to? If you think the US government is going to pay out claims to airlines you are kidding yourself.

roseflyer · Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:52 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 13):
This should effect all deliveries to and from the US, Boeing cannot do the job of the FAA. At least Airbus can deliver to countries that do not rely on FAA airworthiness approval, which is most of the world.

Actually, Boeing can do the job of the FAA in places. It's called delegated authority and it does allow some deliveries to continue. Not all aspects of the FAA have authorized representatives where Boeing employees ensure that FAA regulations are followed.

Boeing delivered a Garuda 737 just today: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/GIA8011

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 10):
Each agency can designate essential personal and and keep those people working under a shutdown. The FAA could have done this for these personnel, but chose not to. It is likely that those personnel didn't want to work with no pay (which would be reimbursed after a resolution), and instead would rather stay home and hope for back pay without doing any work (many union and work groups in the government are trying get retroactively paid for not working during the shutdown).

Here's the report for what the DOT did. There only limited aircraft certification activities happening. New registrations, along with safety inspectors have been furloughed.

http://www.dot.gov/sites/dot.dev/fil...%20Plan%20for%20Approp%20Lapse.pdf

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 23):

The DOT issued a plan well before the shutdown listing exactly which offices will remain open and which ones will be closed, so I am a bit surprised that the inability to fly a new plane into the US is news to US Airways or Airbus. Was that plan not clear enough, or did US Airways and Airbus forget to look at it?

The plan was announced on September 27th. That's not much time and it was rather vague stating that limited aircraft certification would be available. I linked the PDF above.

hOMSaR · Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:56 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 23):
Quoting etops1 (Thread starter):
I have a friend who's in Toulouse right now and is part of a team delivering a brand new A330-200 for USAirways . Tail number N289AY.

The DOT issued a plan well before the shutdown listing exactly which offices will remain open and which ones will be closed, so I am a bit surprised that the inability to fly a new plane into the US is news to US Airways or Airbus. Was that plan not clear enough, or did US Airways and Airbus forget to look at it?

I guess the question is when did they go out there, and (perhaps more importantly) how long ago was the decision made to send the employees there? It sounds like the trip was a prize for some kind of charity auction, so given the advance planning that it would take to give 30 people a trip to France, you might as well send them even if they don't get to fly home in the new plane in the end. It's far more involved than rescheduling a couple of delivery pilots.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 23):
Quoting trex8 (Reply 6):
Why can't US register it elsewhere at least temporarily?

Can aircraft not registered in the US operate commercial domestic flights though?

There was a thread about this a few months back, and there have been examples of foreign-registered aircraft operating for airlines in the USA. I think one example was a TWA MD-80 registered in Ireland.

TZTriStar500 · Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:54 am

The political discussions on the US government shutdown are a side issue to the topic at hand. I can add information specifically to Airbus deliveries as I have been part of an led a few.

The main reason they are stuck is that the FAA office that processes registrations has been furloughed so they cannot fly under their reserved N#s without receiving what is called a 'Fly Wire' from them. This is actually a temporary certificate of registration that is valid for 30 days until the original is received. Once this is received, the temporary French or German registration is removed. Also, the FAA has a MIDO representative in Toulouse to issue FAA Certificates of Airworthiness that would make the aircraft airworthy for US operation.

It is quite possible that this representative has been recalled back to the US. Therefore, any new Airbuses destined for US registration and operation are indeed stuck and have only their temporary French or German registrations and EASA certificates of airworthiness. They cannot be ferried back to the US in this state.

iowaman · Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:06 am

Just as a reminder please keep off topic political debates out of this thread. The non-aviation forum is the place for civilized political posts on the U.S. federal government shutdown. A thread is available for those who want to: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 2 (by iowaman Oct 4 2013 in Non Aviation)

[Edited 2013-10-04 18:16:13]

trex8 · Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:11 am

Quoting TZTriStar500 (Reply 17):
The main reason they are stuck is that the FAA office that processes registrations has been furloughed so they cannot fly under their reserved N#s without receiving what is called a 'Fly Wire' from them. This is actually a temporary certificate of registration that is valid for 30 days until the original is received. Once this is received, the temporary French or German registration is removed. Also, the FAA has a MIDO representative in Toulouse to issue FAA Certificates of Airworthiness that would make the aircraft airworthy for US operation.

They can't fly under a foreign registration, maybe as a leased aircraft, to the US and get registered then??

TZTriStar500 · Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:26 am

Quoting trex8 (Reply 19):
They can't fly under a foreign registration, maybe as a leased aircraft, to the US and get registered then??

Technically yes as there have been EI (Ireland) registered lease aircraft and some airlines lease aircraft from Europe like Sun Country and Transavia and they keep their PH registration. However, these aircraft still require US Certificates of Airworthiness and these can be done by FAA DARs for used aircraft. A US Certificate of Registration and a US Certificate of Airworthiness are two different things. An FAA DMIR can issue an FAA CofA, but I am not certain if the FAA requires these to be issued directly from them as Airbus is a foreign entity and therefore cannot have a DMIR on staff. US airlines do not want to complicate things with foreign registered aircraft. This actually can limit what they can do with it and how they operate it if its not US registered.

Gemuser · Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:27 am

Quoting TZTriStar500 (Reply 20):
However, these aircraft still require US Certificates of Airworthiness

No they don't. They require a C of A from the authority of the country of registration (basic requirement under Chicago Conv). What they DO require is FAA APPROVAL to operated a foreign registered aircraft under a USA airline approval. I'd guess that if the FAA is not issuing normal registrations then it is not issuing these types of approvals either.

So trex8 your idea still wouldn't work.

Gemuser

zeke · Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:29 am

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 14):
Actually, Boeing can do the job of the FAA in places. It's called delegated authority and it does allow some deliveries to continue. Not all aspects of the FAA have authorized representatives where Boeing employees ensure that FAA regulations are followed.

I do under stand that, I have held various delegations in the past. The 737 example you have given is actually mainly done prior to the shutdown, Boeing cannot issue a new registration (N number)), that has to come form the FAA.

TZTriStar500 · Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:10 am

Quoting gemuser (Reply 21):
No they don't. They require a C of A from the authority of the country of registration (basic requirement under Chicago Conv). What they DO require is FAA APPROVAL to operated a foreign registered aircraft under a USA airline approval. I'd guess that if the FAA is not issuing normal registrations then it is not issuing these types of approvals either.

So trex8 your idea still wouldn't work.

Gemuser

You are correct, my mistake. 14 CFR 121.153 allows for this if it has an appropriate airworthiness certificate issued by the country of registration, but only for leased and chartered aircraft with other restrictions namely that a copy of the lease/agreement has to be filed with FAA Oklahoma office.

Another local FAA element I missed is that once the aircraft is delivered, the airline's local FSDO or CMO has to then approve its addition to their respective Op Spec. With the FSDOs and presumably CMOs closed as well, this cannot occur either.

PHX787 · Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:58 am

Quoting etops1 (Thread starter):
I have a friend who's in Toulouse right now

Are you talking about Peter from PHX SPotters? He's been posting about the trip for a while.

That US Airways A330 looks so amazing on the ground but it's a damn shame she can't come home

Mir · Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:28 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 11):
Quoting trex8 (Reply 6):
Why can't US register it elsewhere at least temporarily?

Can aircraft not registered in the US operate commercial domestic flights though?

They can, but a commercial operator is going to have to file paperwork with the FAA in order to use them on their certificate. And that's not going to be possible with the government shut down either.

-Mir

solarflyer22 · Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:55 am

Yeah I would think both B and A would be pretty annoyed. There is not room to store them if this goes on for 2-3 weeks possibly. All the FAA inspectors are furloughed.

Pohakuloa · Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:20 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 11):
Can aircraft not registered in the US operate commercial domestic flights though?

Quoting hoMsar (Reply 15):
there have been examples of foreign-registered aircraft operating for airlines in the USA.

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Glareskin · Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:00 am

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 10):
Quoting StTim (Reply 3):
Imagine the bleats if the EU stopped registering Boeing planes during the shutdown.

Why would Boeing care? They'll have their money (most of it, anyway), it's the EU carriers that won't have their airplanes.

Maybe because their parking is getting full?

brilondon · Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:29 am

Quoting ORDBOSEWR (Reply 4):
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 7):
But perhaps customers will postpone further payments until the plane can fly away.

Payment to who?

If you buy a car and because the state will not issue registration. Does the dealership care? not one bit. They are already paid.

If Boeing or Airbus have not received full payment for the plane then I have another issue, but I am sure they have it fully paid for before the customer gets the plane.

Now, if you are referencing Boeing/Airbus Financing arm, that is different. I am sure the Financing agreement has language to protect both the carrier and manufacturer.

So I guess, this is my long way of saying. Nope, don't buy it.

Neither Boeing nor Airbus cares whether you can register you purchase in your respective countries. The airlines still need to fulfil their obligations to the manufacturer of the product.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 5):
He won't, but I wouldn't pay until I can take my car home.

No one is stopping you from taking your car home, in fact they would love you to take your car home, you just can't drive it. Your car dealer has nothing to do with the government processes of registering and licensing. You will already have paid for this when you signed the purchase agreement for you car.

Gemuser · Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:52 am

Quoting brilondon (Reply 28):
Neither Boeing nor Airbus cares whether you can register you purchase in your respective countries.

I think you'll find thet the contract between the OEM & the airline requires the delivery of a REGISTERED & certified aircraft under the rules of the customers country.

Gemuser

etops1 · Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:48 pm

> Wow . This is really a bummer . That affects our schedules at US I bet . What a bunch of nonsense . The powers that be need to get their act together .. Fast ! I am assuming this hurts AA, B6 , and NK as well with their deliveries as well.

[Edited 2013-10-05 05:52:22]

[Edited 2013-10-05 05:53:10]

brilondon · Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:29 pm

Quoting gemuser (Reply 29):
I think you'll find thet the contract between the OEM & the airline requires the delivery of a REGISTERED & certified aircraft under the rules of the customers country

I doubt it. The manufacturer stills has to be paid for their product and the contract between the manufacturer and the purchaser is still enforceable. I don't have any knowledge about the particular contracts signed between Airbus and US so I don't know anything about that contract. If you do and can give us a particular clause it would clear this up.

rwy04lga · Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:55 pm

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 27):
Maybe because their parking is getting full?

And they can't park them elsewhere? Or does it HAVE to be PAE?

art · Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:09 pm

I can see that gaining a US registration is a problem (presumably delaying things for Airbus and Boeing where the client is US-based). Does anything stop Boeing export clients registering aircraft outside of the USA and flying new aircraft out of the USA? I'm thinking that perhaps the process involves de-registering the aircraft in the USA before it can be registered elsewhere.

mjoelnir · Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:19 pm

Will Boeing have a problem with flight testing if the government shutdown continues?

cmf · Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:09 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 28):
Neither Boeing nor Airbus cares whether you can register you purchase in your respective countries. The airlines still need to fulfil their obligations to the manufacturer of the product.

I have not seen the contracts but I consider it is a safe bet to assume they include a force majeure clause.

Gemuser · Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:40 pm

Quoting art (Reply 33):
I'm thinking that perhaps the process involves de-registering the aircraft in the USA before it can be registered elsewhere.

If the new production aircraft have a "normal" US registration then yes, de-registering is required before the authority of the airlines country can register it, as an aircraft cannot be legally on two aircraft registers at the same time. However I believe Boeing has a series of "test" registrations ("trade plates") that they can allocate, reallocate at wim for testing purposes. These, I presume, would not be affected by the shutdown.

Gemuser

PHX787 · Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:36 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 34):
Will Boeing have a problem with flight testing if the government shutdown continues?

As long as the ATC is still working I don't see why not.

NAV20 · Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:43 pm

It's only a temporary thing. The officials who have to grant the necessary permissions just aren't at their desks at the moment. My guess is that everything will be sorted out within a week or so, and things will return to normal.......

ltbewr · Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:08 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 38):

Problems include that there is going to be a loss of that time, domino affects adding more delays, possibly some staff laid off if further Federal budget cuts are upheld, limits on paying or no overtime pay to make up for lost time. I would assume that the paperwork is going to be processed in the order it arrived with perhaps some very limited exemptions.

wn676 · Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:27 pm

Here's 289 at the delivery center in Toulouse, ready to come home when this mess gets sorted out:

The weather reflected our mood pretty well that day. Wish we could have taken her back...

kanban · Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:08 pm

Sheesh that model number under the radome is tacky...

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