CX Adds 4th Daily LAX, Increases ORD

YVRSpeedBird · Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:05 am

Amazing... let the "DFW is next" debate start

http://www.cathaypacific.com/cx/en_P...e_flight_frequency_to_Chicago.html

aaway · Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:15 am

Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Thread starter):
Amazing... let the "DFW is next" debate start

Guess DFW is being left for AA to launch. This also effectively kills any possibility of AA adding LAX - HKG.

YVRSpeedBird · Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:17 am

It's amazing how CX has expanded in North America over the last few years. The 77W has really done wonders for their network. Even with a morning departure out of HKG, the new flight still provides connections from MNL, SIN, CGK & BKK. Pre-emptive move on SQ should the latter be thinking of restarting SIN-TPE-LAX?

B747forever · Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:25 am

Amazing that they will start a fourth daily flight, yet nobody else can make LAX-HKG work.

YVRSpeedBird · Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:31 am

Quoting B747forever (Reply 3):
Amazing that they will start a fourth daily flight, yet nobody else can make LAX-HKG work.

Because perhaps the O&D market is already well-served & CX has the connectivity in HKG that no one else has?

aaway · Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:36 am

Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Reply 2):
Pre-emptive move on SQ should the latter be thinking of restarting SIN-TPE-LAX?

Pre-emptive, yes....not necessarily directed at SQ though. It was telling when SQ discontinued SIN-TPE-LAX. That was the first North America route it dropped during the recession.

I do believe that SQ will utilize 5th freedom via another port should they decide to reinstate another one-stop to LAX.

Sydscott · Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:40 am

Quoting aaway (Reply 5):
I do believe that SQ will utilize 5th freedom via another port should they decide to reinstate another one-stop to LAX.

SIN-TPE-LAX is currently the only unused 5th freedom SQ has that they could use to the US. So it's that one or nothing. (And the current SQ plan is for no further routes to North America)

SCL767 · Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:46 am

Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Thread starter):

Very impressive! With the addition of the new daily HKG-EWR service, CX will add 17 new weekly frequencies to the U.S. next year! Way to go CX!

Quoting aaway (Reply 1):
Guess DFW is being left for AA to launch.

According to Cathay Pacific's CEO-elect Ivan Chu, CX is evaluating launching HKG-DFW:
http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...-premium-rebound---dfw-next-123357

aaway · Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:48 am

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 6):
SIN-TPE-LAX is currently the only unused 5th freedom SQ has that they could use to the US. So it's that one or nothing. (And the current SQ plan is for no further routes to North America)

IIRC, SQ has an additional Japanese right via KIX. Certainly has never been used since it was granted in '08-'09. But also am aware of their current strategy focusing on the Asia (rather than North America) market.

B747forever · Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:51 am

Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Reply 4):
Because perhaps the O&D market is already well-served

By only one carrier with four daily flights. I would understand if nobody wanted to enter a long haul route that could only sustain one daily flight, but if HKG can sustain four dailies, I would like to see another airline stepping up and add some competition on that route.

ojas · Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:02 am

Brilliant, absolutely brilliant.

With the new flights, I'm sure CX will capture the premium clientele on BOM/DEL - LAX route offering them an early arrival into LAX.

YVRSpeedBird · Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:05 am

Quoting B747forever (Reply 9):
By only one carrier with four daily flights. I would understand if nobody wanted to enter a long haul route that could only sustain one daily flight, but if HKG can sustain four dailies, I would like to see another airline stepping up and add some competition on that route.

The 77W really changed the game for CX. When they operated with 744's, HKG/LAX was only served twice daily. The only other airline (apart from AA but they have other problems to deal with... & they already codeshare with CX) that could probably start (or in this case re-start) service is UA... with some Star Alliance connectivity in HKG, and somewhat decent connections in LAX. But they don't have the right aircraft. The 744 is no longer as competitive (not talking product-wise but economics-wise) as it used to be when they served the route, and the 772 will have payload restrictions that it may not be worth it for them, unlike EWR where they have massive connectivity state-side, as well as being the sole carrier on the route (until March 2014).

CaliAtenza · Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:51 am

Quoting ojas (Reply 10):

With the new flights, I'm sure CX will capture the premium clientele on BOM/DEL - LAX route offering them an early arrival into LAX.

dont forget about KA's connection to BLR...and CX's flights to Hyderabad and MAA.

ojas · Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:55 am

Quoting caliatenza (Reply 12):
dont forget about KA's connection to BLR...and CX's flights to Hyderabad and MAA.

BLR, HYD, MAA - HKG do not even connect to the new flights in any form. You can run through the schedule of the flights and that will give you a clearer picture.

mdavies06 · Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:49 am

Does the new AA GRU flights connect well to these schedule? How long does LAX transfer takes? Is 3 hours enough?

SCL767 · Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:56 am

The addition of CX893 will permit faster connection times via LAX for pax arriving on LA600/CX7810 (SCL-LIM-LAX) that are connecting onwards to HKG.

commavia · Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:14 pm

Agreed - immensely impressive. CX will now be up to 80 weekly frequencies from the U.S.? Is that right? CX's utter dominance of HKG-U.S. continues. Great news for CX (and to a lesser extent, AA).

thekennady · Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:26 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 7):

I would think that HKG-DFW would be better served on AA metal. AA could get into a critical Asain market and with feed on both ends and the OW partenship it might work with a 772. Could AAs 772s make this route? AA 773 might be too much capacity for a 40 Pdew route even with connections on both ends.

747megatop · Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:46 pm

Any chance of CX expanding into SEA? SEA has a large Asian population and is a major business center after LA and Bay Area on the west coast.

Also, isn't a 4 daily frequency to LAX a perfect candidate for twice daily A 380 service (provided CX orders it) ? Or, is CX preferring frequency vs going big?

ldvaviation · Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:58 pm

Quoting ojas (Reply 10):
With the new flights, I'm sure CX will capture the premium clientele on BOM/DEL - LAX route offering them an early arrival into LAX.

They already are. And, the miles are being booked on AA.

timpdx · Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:04 pm

Good move for belly cargo in those 4 dailies. LAX and California in general is a great cargo market in both directions.

This and the EY announcemet...good day for LAX

LAXdude1023 · Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:09 pm

Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Thread starter):
Amazing... let the "DFW is next" debate start

Something tells me that this is in lew of DFW as opposed to in addition to DFW.

Sad, but thats probably the reality.

modesto2 · Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:15 pm

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 18):
Any chance of CX expanding into SEA? SEA has a large Asian population and is a major business center after LA and Bay Area on the west coast.

DL just announced HKGSEA on 332 equipment starting next year. I'd be surprised if the market could support that new service along with a CX flight.

AADC10 · Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:35 pm

Quoting aaway (Reply 1):
This also effectively kills any possibility of AA adding LAX - HKG.

It probably also kills any chance of UA restarting LAX-HKG as well.

747megatop · Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:57 pm

Quoting modesto2 (Reply 22):
DL just announced HKGSEA on 332 equipment starting next year. I'd be surprised if the market could support that new service along with a CX flight.

But DL does not have the advantage of a fortress hub with a lot of connections that CX has at HKG. If CX were to start this route it i think it would perform better than DL and maybe ease DL out of the market.

peanuts · Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:12 pm

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 23):
It probably also kills any chance of UA restarting LAX-HKG as well.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 24):
If CX were to start this route it i think it would perform better than DL and maybe ease DL out of the market.

I don't want to hear "kill" or anything of that nature.
I understand CX is the top dog. But if you pretty much control the NYC/LAX/ORD markets with multiple daily flights, I think there'd be room for a little competition on a different alliance. Kind of like LHR flying. Nobody will touch BA/AA there, but you keep them honest. There's enough to share.

Look at SFO. CX has 2 daily, not 4. Likely thanks to UA.

So.........yes, I'm talking to you DL.

a380787 · Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:31 pm

Quoting peanuts (Reply 25):
I understand CX is the top dog. But if you pretty much control the NYC/LAX/ORD markets with multiple daily flights, I think there'd be room for a little competition on a different alliance. Kind of like LHR flying. Nobody will touch BA/AA there, but you keep them honest. There's enough to share.

At least UA is also in NYC-HKG and ORD-HKG to somewhat keep CX in check. So sad HKG-LAX is 4x daily on CX and yet they have a monopoly.

Launching EWR ... making LAX 4x daily ... making ORD 10x weekly ... I'm still waiting for DFW for all the "imminent launch" I keep hearing.

jfk777 · Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:41 pm

Will LAX have more Cathay flights then LHR one of these days ?

Newark727 · Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:43 pm

Quoting aaway (Reply 8):
IIRC, SQ has an additional Japanese right via KIX. Certainly has never been used since it was granted in '08-'09.

Not strictly true. Right after the Tohoku earthquake and tsunami, flight SQ11/12 moved from SIN-NRT-LAX to SIN-KIX-LAX for a period of around two months, as I recall. Obviously that wasn't a planned move on SQ's part, though.

CXGabriel · Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:47 pm

It's great to learn CX adding more NA flights! With this news, I think it indicates DFW launch may not happen soon. LAX is a great Latin America gateway, adding a 4th daily flights makes any connections possible in LAX. ORD is an excellent connection point for domestic U.S. for mid-west, ohio valley, and the south from HKG, so is DFW. It seems to me that CX's priority is to strengthen the schedule/connection at ORD first by having a day flight and a night flight. I predict that ORD will soon be twice daily before DFW launch.

When CX starts receiving the A350-900, we'll see more destinations launch in Europe and North America.

aaway · Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:43 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 21):
Something tells me that this is in lew of DFW as opposed to in addition to DFW.

Sad, but thats probably the reality.

Again I'm finding myself in agreement with you. 1000mi greater stage length catering to (largely) the same connecting markets, and a MUCH SMALLER local market..

modesto2 · Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:02 pm

Quoting peanuts (Reply 25):
Look at SFO. CX has 2 daily, not 4. Likely thanks to UA.

Don't forget SQ's HKGSFO service. The route has 4x daily:

CX 2x
SQ 1x
UA 1x

nomorerjs · Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:35 pm

Will UA respond to CX adding 3x more weekly flights? They seem to be in fighting mode with DL and ORD-HKG is a strong yield route.

bharathkv · Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:39 pm

Btw what about SFO? SFO has the largest indian population in US but CX 870 and CX 879 (the return flight) fly full everyday and the other flight CX 872 and CX 873 do not even connect most of the indian destinations. So why is that CX and for that matter other carriers keep on adding more service to LAX but not to SFO. I have always seen this happen and sounds not right.

IndianicWorld · Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:56 pm

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 33):
Btw what about SFO? SFO has the largest indian population in US but CX 870 and CX 879 (the return flight) fly full everyday and the other flight CX 872 and CX 873 do not even connect most of the indian destinations. So why is that CX and for that matter other carriers keep on adding more service to LAX but not to SFO. I have always seen this happen and sounds not right.

LAX may well be the higher yielding and have a broader demand mix.

HKG demand is a lot more than just Indian connection pax afterall.

LAXdude1023 · Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:13 pm

Quoting aaway (Reply 30):
Again I'm finding myself in agreement with you. 1000mi greater stage length catering to (largely) the same connecting markets, and a MUCH SMALLER local market..

Though I will say I have to wonder why a.net isnt jumping up and down clamoring that its too much capcity for ORD-HKG. ORD-HKG is roughly the same size as DFW-ICN and a.net swore up and down that there was no way DFW-ICN could support KE and AA.

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 33):
SFO has the largest indian population in US

No, NYC does. The Bay Area is number two though, followed by Chicago, DC, Dallas, LA, Philly and Houston.

johnclipper · Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:00 am

HKG-LHR is up to 5x daily now.

nomorerjs · Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:16 am

ORD-HKG also has a tremendous amount of premium traffic. Does DFW-ICN equal that?

Comparing ORD-HKG to DFW to ICN is like comparing ORD-LGA to DFW to DTW.

LAXdude1023 · Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:26 am

Quoting nomorerjs (Reply 37):
Comparing ORD-HKG to DFW to ICN is like comparing ORD-LGA to DFW to DTW.

You just made that up and its nothing like that at all. ORD-LGA is many, many times larger than DFW-DTW while ORD-HKG and DFW-ICN are similar in size. I dont think you have a clue how much traffic either one generates and you are compensating by belligerence.

ORD-HKG does have more premium traffic, but the yields are high on both. That might go in the toilet if ORD-HKG becomes a 3x daily flight.

United Airline · Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:58 am

I suppose UA will increase flights between Hong Kong and the US once they recieve more aircraft/

Why doesn't SQ add flights to the US to compete?

MarcoPoloWorld · Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:29 am

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 33):
Btw what about SFO? SFO has the largest indian population in US but CX 870 and CX 879 (the return flight) fly full everyday and the other flight CX 872 and CX 873 do not even connect most of the indian destinations. So why is that CX and for that matter other carriers keep on adding more service to LAX but not to SFO. I have always seen this happen and sounds not right.

Oh, I always assumed that they moved CX872 to a midnight departure to accommodate south Asia connections? If that isn't the case, then what was the reason for that? Simply to reduce turn-around time at SFO? Otherwise, I'm not sure who wants to board a plane in HK at midnight, sleep in flight, only to arrive at SF at late evening? The previous late afternoon departure of CX872 of about 1620-1700 was great to catch a wide range of incoming intra southeast Asia connections at HKG and still be able to arrive SFO at a decent time during the day (good for both o/d and connections), better than CX870 whose departure time works well only if you originate in Hong Kong or nearby like TPE because of it's earlier departure time.

I think in the absence of CX adding a third daily to SFO with better timings or correcting the existing schedule, I would agree with you that this is a disappointment for SFO - especially considering how perfect the new 4x LAX schedule will be.

thekennady · Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:21 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 38):
That might go in the toilet if ORD-HKG becomes a 3x daily flight.

Not necessarily true. This is a Mega Hub to Hub route that has connections on both sides. As you know ORD is the only Gateway to HKG in the Midwest as DL dropped DTW-HKG. ORD is in a very good position to connect passengers to HKG and southeast Asia. So you have traffic from Southeast Asia to ORD and east of the Rockies, you have ORD-HKG O&D going both ways. 3 daily flights is not totally unrealistic due to the circumstances ORD benefits from. With more options form ORD it will stimulate demand and pull additional passengers heading to/from the HKG and southeast Asia region.

celestar · Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:24 am

I regularly took CX from HK to NA. Had been one of the first flights when they opened up to ORD.
I am not too surprised at frequency increase to LAX but to ORD, that is really surprising. On some of my HK to ORD flight, the loads were more like 75-80% range. I think there must be some good reasoning behind this ORD increase.

From what CX is doing, they are adding frequency instead of single plane capacity. It is then no wonder that they are not interested in A380.

I was on one of the 5 flight from LHR to HKD recently, that flight was 100% full with business class almost 99% full! I often wonder how many passengers really travels between LHR to ASIA!

United Airline · Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:14 am

I think UA will restart HKG-LAX once they recieve more B787s. They can still do it. Also AA can consider starting it too. CX is flying 5 times daily to LHR but BA and VS are still doing very well (BA twice a day and VS once a day).

bharathkv · Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:02 am

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 40):
Oh, I always assumed that they moved CX872 to a midnight departure to accommodate south Asia connections? If that isn't the case, then what was the reason for that? Simply to reduce turn-around time at SFO? Otherwise, I'm not sure who wants to board a plane in HK at midnight, sleep in flight, only to arrive at SF at late evening?

I think CX 872 and CX 872 have good timings for HKG-SFO passengers.

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 40):
The previous late afternoon departure of CX872 of about 1620-1700 was great to catch a wide range of incoming intra southeast Asia connections at HKG and still be able to arrive SFO at a decent time during the day (good for both o/d and connections), better than CX870 whose departure time works well only if you originate in Hong Kong or nearby like TPE because of it's earlier departure time.

Totally agree with you. I have taken the previous late afternoon departure of CX 872 and it connected onward journey from SE Asia to SFO really well. The only problem was that CX had to make the CX 873 aircraft sit at SFO for at least 8 hrs or so.

LAXintl · Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:18 pm

Quoting timpdx (Reply 20):
Good move for belly cargo in those 4 dailies. LAX and California in general is a great cargo market in both directions.

These long flights dont mean much for cargo. CX has daily freighter to move such instead.

IrishAyes · Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:55 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 21):
Something tells me that this is in lew of DFW as opposed to in addition to DFW.

It's unfortunate that this is so typical of CX, a la adding HKG-EWR (when there are already 4x daily prexisting flights to the NYC region).....although some speculate this may have been a reaction to SQ exiting nonstop SIN-EWR.

With premium traffic rebound the strongest in North America, and high load factors, CX should really step out of their comfort zones for once.

Quoting CXGabriel (Reply 29):
LAX is a great Latin America gateway, adding a 4th daily flights makes any connections possible in LAX.

Not in the slightest.

DFW provides more seats to Greater Latin America as a whole than LAX does. LAX's connectivity to Latin America is concentrated solely/primarily on Central America, and even within that realm, DFW provides approximately the same number of weekly seats to Central America as LAX does (~45,000 year-round).

Furthermore, LAX's Central American traffic is HIGHLY fragmented among non-OW carriers (OneWorld only holds 5% of LAX-Central America traffic), whereas DFW's Central American ops are predominantly AA (92%).

Discounting this, DFW provides more seats to Upper South America than LAX (~5,000 vs. ~3,000) and Lower South America (~3,500 vs. 600, which is represented by LA's seasonal LAX-SCL nonstop, although this number will change when AA adds LAX-GRU).

LAX also has no nonstop service to the Caribbean, although arguably this is less significant as that is a tiny market to Asia.

Finally, without question, DFW is a far superior airport to connect through over LAX. Everyone knows this. Just look at how successful Qantas' DFW ops have been for this reason alone. Within a few short months, QF upgauged DFW from 3x to daily. People will go out of their way to avoid LAX for connections.

Put simply, there is little to no value that LAX provides to CX in terms of offering OneWorld connectivity onward to Latin America that DFW cannot offer by leaps and bounds.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 38):
I dont think you have a clue how much traffic either one generates and you are compensating by belligerence.

[Edited 2013-10-09 11:49:06]

flythere · Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:05 pm

After all these frequency increase, it would go like this for CX in Hong Kong.

28 weekly New York
28 weekly Los Angeles
14 weekly San Francisco
14 weekly Vancouver
10 weekly Chicago
10 weekly Toronto
7 weekly Newark

111 ULH Tran-Pacific flights each way every week, most on 777-300ER with a few on soon-to-retire 747-400.

If you put those double-digit 748F freighter services into count, the traffic size is quite staggering indeed.

747megatop · Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:21 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 46):
Finally, without question, DFW is a far superior airport to connect through over LAX.

When it comes to international-to-international transfers either airport is the same in terms of clearing immigration and customs, right? Other than that, yes, DFW definitely provides a better experience for connecting passengers.

Here is what Quantas says on their website of ALL passengers having to clear immigration & customs in DFW and LAX (I guess the same applies to CX?) -

http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airl...las-fort-worth/global/en#transfers

"All customers travelling on Qantas operated flights from Australia to Dallas/Fort Worth will clear customs and immigration in Dallas/Fort Worth."

http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airl...irport-guide-los-angeles/global/en

"All Qantas customers arriving from Australia must clear customs and immigration in Los Angeles."

WROORD · Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:23 am

I am not surprised that ORD is getting three more frequencies. The Mayor of Chicago wants ORD to be the premier gateway to/from Asia. Chicago is advertising itself in Asia as the tourist destination and recently I read that the number of foreign tourist have doubles. I can see more Asian tourist walking around downtown everyday. Since my offices are located in one of the historic buildings I see more tour groups from Asia as well.
Having said that you will see more flights from ORD to Asia in coming months and years.

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