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Jerseyguy
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Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:44 am

Does the $100 at the gate carry-on really make sense and save the ULCC money? I'm going to say no. Why? Well you have to figure who actually pays the $100 fee at the gate? People who aren't paying attention to the fees of the airline, people who are unaware. Those people are surprised you charge a carry-on fee and then get irate when you tell them not only do you charge a carry-on fee its going to be $100. They aren't going to hear that its because they didn't pay for it online (or booked it thru a 3rd party in F9s case) and even if they do they aren't going to care. This will only lead to losing a customer and creating a scene at the airport, on your facebook and twitter feed. True it does act as a deterrant to people paying for the carry-on at the gate and saving the cost of an extra gate agent but seems like dealing with the unhappy customers and the customers (including those who see the scene or read the social media feed) you will lose its just not worth it. Should you give the customer the incentive to paying it online, yes? But $100 seems like a fee that is outrageous to people, I say if you charge $20 or even $30 for a carry-on online, it should probably only cost $60 at the gate.

Does this really help the bottom line at Spirit and Frontier?

[Edited 2013-10-12 22:45:41]
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:34 am

Quoting Jerseyguy (Thread starter):
Does this really help the bottom line at Spirit and Frontier?

I suspect it does, but that doesn't make it OK in my book. At the gate, when someone is inexperienced and failed to read the fine print, it becomes extortion. I fly with companies that at least appear do a somewhat honest business by their customers. This sort of behavior speaks to me of a company in which the concept of a "valued customer" is foreign. I won't give Spirit, Allegiant, or Frontier my business.

It's a reason I love WN. They have a culture of doing an honest business with their customers. They take care of you when something goes wrong (I once got a $5 meal voucher from them for a 3h weather delay...even though it wasn't their fault) and they manage to offer different levels of service without it feeling like you're being squeezed dry.
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:53 am

Interesting...

Must have snoozed through that one. I had no idea F9 hand jumped into the Carry-on charge crapwagon, though the way they're headed, I really can't feign astonishment here. That's a real shame...

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
At the gate, when someone is inexperienced and failed to read the fine print, it becomes extortion.

I did a test book, hoping that this was some sort of exaggeration. No luck there. Not only does one have to get to page three of the booking process, but it is buried at the bottom and it's only clear to those looking for it.

I'm sure someone will say something about low fares being unsustainable and all, and if true, that would at least be a thin case for it. But this fare was a two week advance, saturday night stay, LAX - DCA. $761 they wanted as a base. SMH...

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
It's a reason I love WN. They have a culture of doing an honest business with their customers

They're good for now. But there's really nothing that can be banked on over the long haul. There was a time when F9 was a go to choice for domestic runs, for the entire reason of not having to deal with this crap. Four years later, here we are. Times change, no more of my money for F9, I guess.
Well, you know what they say. Whatever doesn't kill you...
... Must not be an MD-11.
 
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mariner
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:59 am

Quoting Jerseyguy (Thread starter):
Those people are surprised you charge a carry-on fee and then get irate when you tell them not only do you charge a carry-on fee its going to be $100.

Very few people are charged $100, unless they're trying to take a steamer trunk onboard.

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 2):
I did a test book, hoping that this was some sort of exaggeration. No luck there. Not only does one have to get to page three of the booking process, but it is buried at the bottom and it's only clear to those looking for it.

If you were booking Frontier, through the airline website, then I have no idea why you would be charged $100 for a carry on bag.

That charge for carry-on only applies if you booked through a third party website and at gate check.

http://www.flyfrontier.com/optional-service-fees

It isn't rocket science, but it is educating the pax to avoid overcrowding the bins.

mariner

[Edited 2013-10-13 03:29:14]
aeternum nauta
 
SCQ83
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:45 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
I suspect it does, but that doesn't make it OK in my book. At the gate, when someone is inexperienced and failed to read the fine print, it becomes extortion. I fly with companies that at least appear do a somewhat honest business by their customers. This sort of behavior speaks to me of a company in which the concept of a "valued customer" is foreign. I won't give Spirit, Allegiant, or Frontier my business.

I think it does not make sense in the medium to long term.

It is very interesting that Ryanair (which is notorious for all kind of outrageous fees and bad customer service - of which they were proud of it, probably as a marketing strategy to make customers think that they are always the cheapest option -) have changed their approach to be a "nicer" company http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/431...oss-vows-to-treat-customers-nicer. Having flown Ryanair this month twice, it has been certainly a more relaxed experience that I have had with them before.

The problem with those strategies, is that Spirit or Ryanair will be only flown when they only are the cheapest option available. And what is worse, a lot of passengers will be willing to pay a premium (call it a sort of "insurance") to fly JetBlue or Easyjet to avoid being shouted at the gate or pay a luggage fee that is twice what they had paid for their ticket. So you are not paying a plus to have a nicer experience, but to avoid having a nightmare.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:59 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 3):
If you were booking Frontier, through the airline website, then I have no idea why you would be charged $100 for a carry on bag.

This is true. But the question here is asked in the parlance of "is this a good idea for F9 or not?" I say "not" because we have to look at who is the most likely to get sandbagged with this. Will it be folks like ourselves, whom I think it can be said are tremendously educated with regard to air travel, or folks who see the lowest fare, go for it, and don't have the time or wherewithal to read the fine print?

I think it's the latter.

As for me, why I wouldn't fly with F9 over this... Simply put, as of now, the option not to still exists. So while I can still vote with my wallet, I will. As far as "training" PAX to be better about not packing every last knick knack for short trips, hey, I'm all for that. I'm no happier than anyone else when it takes longer to board over gate check issues. But I think hitting up occasional travelers at the last minute for $100 isn't the way to go about that, especially when their ticket prices aren't actually lower than the competition anyway.
Well, you know what they say. Whatever doesn't kill you...
... Must not be an MD-11.
 
srbmod
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:34 am

Until the Federal government starts taxing these fees like they should be, the airlines will continue to create additional streams of tax-free ancillary revenue. The ULCC model cuts the ticket price to the bone but makes money off of "optional" fees. The average passenger is not going to travel with a single bag that can fit under the seat in front of them, so these airlines will get extra revenue via either a checked bag fee or an overhead bin fee. They charge for drinks and snacks, something that is included in the fare on other airlines (Other airlines do have snacks and beverages that they charge for, but they still offer free items.). By the time one pays all of the various fees, that cheap flights isn't looking so cheap. The major airlines are looking for additional ancillary revenue streams, but are going in a different direction than the likes of Spirit, Frontier and Allegiant. They're selling priority boarding, FFP mileage.points boosters, discounted airline lounge access, etc. They're also bundling some of these together in packages. With overhead bin space being at a premium, there are passengers who will gladly pay a premium to get on earlier and pretty much have guaranteed space in the overhead bin.

Frontier has made their fee structure one that punishes those who prefer to book their flights via third party channels as opposed to directly with the airline. Since the charges are separate from the actual fare paid, the third party travel sites don't get a commission off of it (A few hotels have started to do a similar thing involving resort fees. They lowered their room rates so that they appear higher on a search on say Expedia or Travelocity, but the hotels now charge a $20/day resort fee [which is about how much they dropped their room rates] which is paid separately and the travel site doesn't get a commission off of it.). I've only not booked a flight directly with an airline once, as it was part of a package deal on Travelocity and the airlines' own vacation arm wanted several hundred dollars more for the same hotel and flights.
 
AA94
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:04 pm

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 2):
I did a test book, hoping that this was some sort of exaggeration. No luck there. Not only does one have to get to page three of the booking process, but it is buried at the bottom and it's only clear to those looking for it.

Interesting. I just did a search on FlyFrontier.com, and on the third page there is an entire chart, photos and all, describing what the baggage allowance for your selected fare. It appears about midway down the page, and you have to scroll past it to click the 'continue' button to advance to the next step.

Personally, I'm not a fan of this approach, but let's at least call a spade a spade. It's hardly "buried at the bottom" or "only clear to those looking for it."
 
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mariner
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:34 pm

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 5):
This is true. But the question here is asked in the parlance of "is this a good idea for F9 or not?" I say "not" because we have to look at who is the most likely to get sandbagged with this.

As for Frontier, they no longer use Expedia, and as the contacts come up for renewal it's possible that they'll drop the others - like Southwest, who doesn't use third party agents.

As for Spirit, no one seems deterred by their fees:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101106601

"Spirit Airlines soars after boosting 3Q outlook"

And if you won't fly airlines that charge (some) for carry-on bags, you may eventually run out of airlines:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/michelin...-final-fee-frontier-carry-on-bags/

"Airlines Inch Closer To The Final Fee Frontier: Carry-On Bags

Yes, a few smaller carriers such as Spirit, Frontier and Allegiant, have implemented various types of fees for carry-ons. The big airlines haven’t rushed to join them. But as the New York Times reports this weekend, they’ve figured out a back door way to monetize those overhead bins."


mariner
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Indy
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:46 pm

I am all for fees for carry-on bags OR checked bags. Actually I am more for fees for carry-on bags because these are such a problem. It seems to me the entire boarding process could be sped up by encouraging bags to be checked. Since airlines cannot be trusted to do the right thing, I would like to see this sort of thing regulated. First off the fees must be taxed. It is an income and should be taxable. But probably the most important regulation should be forbidding airlines from charging fees for both. The exception of course being for oversize or overweight bags (and limiting the numbers). Airlines should have to chose one fee or the other. Not both. Since there is so little competition left in the U.S. I think the government is obligated to put an end to passenger abuses. Charging for both carry-on and checked bags is an abuse.
IND to RDU to OKC in 18 months. This is what my life has become.
 
TomFoolery
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:46 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 3):
Very few people are charged $100, unless they're trying to take a steamer trunk onboard.

Actually, I read the rules, and it defines the dimensions for carry on, and also states that there is, based on the fare basis (in this case, BASIC) there will be between $25 (if allowance is purchased on line) and $100 (if paid at the gate). If the dimensions are outside of the limits for 'CARRY ON', the bag will need to be checked. This will also carry a fee of up to $100 (for gate check, BASIC fare).

Quoting mariner (Reply 3):
If you were booking Frontier, through the airline website, then I have no idea why you would be charged $100 for a carry on bag.

The link that you provided does not indicate any exemption for those who book their BASIC fare through the website. It only offers the $25 cost basis if you purchase the carry-on bag allowance on the website. It does not indicate any exceptions for passengers who simply booked their ticket on the website.


I can only speak for myself, but it seems that unless you are an elite level member of the airlines' FF program, most of the major carriers slap you around with fees. Personally, this would make me not even want to bother seeking their services. If other consumers are put off, then this would seem to block an entire fresh customer base from wanting to provide future business. This would leave existing customers, who will eventually find other carriers to transport them. Unless the ticket costs were compellingly low, I am not sure how business could be sustainable. But that is what I said about Spirit too.
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mariner
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:01 pm

Quoting TomFoolery (Reply 10):
The link that you provided does not indicate any exemption for those who book their BASIC fare through the website. It only offers the $25 cost basis if you purchase the carry-on bag allowance on the website. It does not indicate any exceptions for passengers who simply booked their ticket on the website.

I'm not aware that you can buy a BASIC fare through the airline website - I've never seen it offered.

It's the fare for third party booking, online travel agent bookings, and the other the point of the exercise is to drive pax to the airline's own website, which seems to be happening.

As far as I;m aware, flyfrontier.com only sells "economy", "classic"and "classic plus".

mariner

[Edited 2013-10-13 11:03:15]
aeternum nauta
 
MIflyer12
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:17 pm

Quoting srbmod (Reply 6):
Until the Federal government starts taxing these fees like they should be, the airlines will continue to create additional streams of tax-free ancillary revenue.

The airline tax avoidance argument from ancillary fees is way overblown on airline forums. Even if the $100 fee drew the standard U.S. airline excise tax the carrier would keep $92.50, and that's a lot better than zero. More decisively, this is part of the pandering for the lowest displayed ticket price as sought by direct-buy consumers and corporate travel managers alike.

As for what the at-airport price should be, people will pay for convenience and flexibility (see drive-up coffee, or airport coffee, or unrestricted plane tickets, and people suffer financially when they fail to plan (example: feeding a family of five at the airport because they didn't eat before they left the house). I don't see a need for the government (through legislation or DOT rules) to mandate a free or restricted-price carry-on.
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:31 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 3):
Very few people are charged $100, unless they're trying to take a steamer trunk onboard.

Speaking of which . . .

I was in the off-airport rental car facility at MIA yesterday. I watch families roll two luggage trollies off the Miami-Mover train and wondered how they got it all on the plane they arrived on.

Yes, I'm aware neither F9 or NK serves MIA. But still . . . .
 
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mariner
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:39 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 13):
I was in the off-airport rental car facility at MIA yesterday. I watch families roll two luggage trollies off the Miami-Mover train and wondered how they got it all on the plane they arrived on.

Bin space is - or was - the most contentious issue, at least at Frontier, it generated more complaints than anything else, and based on this article I assume it is true for other airlines:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101108005

"Airlines cash in on every inch, even the jammed bins overhead

People have crammed all sorts of things — including a kitchen sink — into airplane overhead compartments.

But now the battle of the bins, that preflight scrum over precious carry-on space, has turned into something else for airlines: the business of the bins.

After starting to charge fees for checking baggage, airlines are finding new ways to make money from carry-ons. Overhead compartments, it turns out, are valuable real estate — and these days, they go to the highest bidders."


mariner
aeternum nauta
 
srbmod
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:46 pm

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 12):
The airline tax avoidance argument from ancillary fees is way overblown on airline forums. Even if the $100 fee drew the standard U.S. airline excise tax the carrier would keep $92.50, and that's a lot better than zero. More decisively, this is part of the pandering for the lowest displayed ticket price as sought by direct-buy consumers and corporate travel managers alike.

There are 53 airlines worldwide that have ancillary fees and they collected $27 BILLION in such fees last year. An increase of 19.6% from 2011.


http://www.ideaworkscompany.com/wp-c...e-78-Ancillary-Revenue-Top-101.pdf
http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/05/travel/ancillary-revenue-fees-airlines/

United collected over $5.3 BILLION in ancillary revenue last year. Delta collected $2.576 BILLION in ancillary revenue last year. 38.5% of Spirit's 2012 total revenue was off of the ancillary fees they charge. Southwest Airlines made $1.65 BILLION in ancillary revenue last year. We're talking billions in potential tax revenue here in time when a lot of places could use the money. Spirit, Allegiant and now Frontier have business models that depend quite heavily on ancillary revenue in order to deliver profitability.
 
BN747DFWHNL
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:56 pm

Quoting Jerseyguy (Thread starter):
But $100 seems like a fee that is outrageous to people

Because it is outrageous. Spirit's signs at the check-in counter read, "We don't want to charge you $100...." Of course they do; that's what they're literally banking on; otherwise, they wouldn't do it.

The problem with this stance is that, if the airlines are going to say it's for weight reasons, then they also need to be charging passengers for weighing more than the standardized number they plug into weight calculations for the aircraft. Of course, that would really be outrageous (at least for now, until it finally happens, just like fees for bags and food).

If we have to pay more if a bag is over 50 lbs., then why aren't they doing the same thing for people who weigh 50 lbs. or more than the standard weight they're figuring the average passenger weighs? It's the same argument, but the airlines know that's a line they can't quite cross...yet. It's coming, just like the "breathing-our-recirculated-air-onboard-the aircraft" fee.

Quoting mariner (Reply 3):
It isn't rocket science, but it is educating the pax to avoid overcrowding the bins.

So, airlines fleece their customers with ancillary, non-taxed baggage fees instead of just putting the cost in the overall price, and it's the passenger's fault for hauling more stuff on board to avoid such fees? I completely agree with you: it's crazy how much people are trying to bring on board, but it's the airlines' own fault/doing for adopting such an unpopular model. I have to travel with some items that cannot be brought on board in carry-on baggage, so my fare is automatically $50 higher than someone else's because I have to check a bag (sending the equipment ahead isn't less than the baggage fee). The only education here is the further realization that airlines are shafting their customers right and left.

[Edited 2013-10-13 12:07:14]

[Edited 2013-10-13 12:14:10]
 
ORDJOE
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:28 pm

Quoting Jerseyguy (Thread starter):
People who aren't paying attention to the fees of the airline, people who are unaware. Those people are surprised you charge a carry-on fee and then get irate when you tell them not only do you charge a carry-on fee its going to be $100. They aren't going to hear that its because they didn't pay for it online (or booked it thru a 3rd party in F9s case) and even if they do they aren't going to care. This will only lead to losing a customer and creating a scene at the airport, on your facebook and twitter feed.

Yeah and at the end of the day most of these flyers are Ma and Pa kettle that are willing to spare nothing to shave a few dollars off the cost of their plane ticket and pat them selves on the back for getting such a good deal even if it means wasting ours of their life to connect or risk these fees. Yes they might plaster their FB or twitter, but at the end of the day they will still go with NK or the like if they are just a few dollars cheaper than WN. You get what you pay for.
Do I like it, no, and that is why I will pay a little for to avoid NK, or other ULCC's. I find they often are not worth the savings.
 
UALDUDE
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:08 pm

If people just follow instructions and read, they can do it ahead of time and save the money, but they don't. Then they get mad when they are punished for not following instructions. They, the airlines, don't want to mess with this at the gate and this discourages that, well, most of the time for people with commons sense.
 
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andrefranca
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:20 pm

Whenever I flew F9 never saw anyone paying the 100 for the carry ons! as many people said: If you read their terms, you'll be good to go!

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
It's a reason I love WN. They have a culture of doing an honest business with their customers. They take care of you when something goes wrong (I once got a $5 meal voucher from them for a 3h weather delay...even though it wasn't their fault) and they manage to offer different levels of service without it feeling like you're being squeezed dry.

In Brazil people don't care if it's the airlines' fault or not, the law says you MUST get your 7,5 USD meal voucher after 2 hours delay! good for travelers, not so good for the airlines.
 
srbmod
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:50 pm

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 19):
Whenever I flew F9 never saw anyone paying the 100 for the carry ons! as many people said: If you read their terms, you'll be good to go!

This is a recent development, as the airline in the last few months changed their ticket and baggage policies as they are changing to the ULCC business model. They're trying to get people to book directly with the airline instead of via a third party site like Expedia, Orbitz, etc. The carry on fee is only charged to tickets bought through a third party site.

http://www.flyfrontier.com/plan-book/fare-options
 
freakyrat
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:47 pm

When I booked my flight to DEN on flyfrontier.com, I booked a Classic Fare which really wasn't all that much more and includes a free cary-on and a free checked bag and a free soda on board plus early group boarding. Folks the Basic fares in some cases do not even cover the costs to operate the aircraft when you figure fuel and crew expenses in.
 
gustywinds
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:54 pm

A Basic fare passenger traveling on F9 can never say they were never aware of the carry on bag fee. A passenger is told online when they check in for their flight and must click that they acknowledge. If they wait till the airport and use the kiosk, they again must click an acknowledgement before they can complete the check in process and receive their boarding pass. It's a lot cheaper to check the bag at the counter. That's what F9 wants people to do. Shame on the passenger if they try to work the system and try to avoid the $25 fee for checking a bag and think they'll sneak their bag onboard. Then, they'll get hit with a $100 fee at the gate. I've seen it one time while traveling F9 in ABQ.

http://www.flyfrontier.com/customer-...l-support/baggage/carry-on-baggage

As Mariner pointed out and it's outlined in the above link, the only passenger type that gets hit with a carry on bag fee is the Basic passenger. This is the passenger that booked through a third party site and the passenger that F9 is paying high commission fees for. Call it penalizing those people who didn't book directly with F9 if you want but F9 is trying to change behaviors.

The fact is, F9 is a business and it should charge for its a la carte services. Unbundling will continue. As Bill Franke has been quoted as saying, the ULCC model is like a cafeteria where you walk down the serving line and pick and choose what you want to eat. F9 gives you the entree and you have to pay for your sides. The legacies charge you for the whole meal, even if you just want soup and a salad.

I do not have a problem with the NK model as long as you know how it works. I have been pricing fares on WN, F9 and NK from DEN to FLL, and even with paying for a checked bag on NK, it is still half the price of F9. So, I might have to give them a try.
 
mt99
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:55 pm

Rant 1: It seems that airlines do not charge "what it costs them". they charge "as much as they can". So to a point, the rise of fuel is a bit of red herring.

Rant 2: (with a tad of jealousy + partly kidding) Why do airline employees get free flights? I mean they charge me $25 for my little bag yet they have a hand full of full grown adults flying first class for free? and i my fiends in the industry are any indication - boy do they milk it... I understand its parts of your compensation.. but still  

- Anyways, take that with a pinch of humor - i know its a tough job  
Step into my office, baby
 
LittleFokker
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:12 pm

Quoting srbmod (Reply 6):
Until the Federal government starts taxing these fees like they should be, the airlines will continue to create additional streams of tax-free ancillary revenue.
Quoting Indy (Reply 9):
First off the fees must be taxed. It is an income and should be taxable.

Unless I am mistaken, these fees are not "tax-free." They may not be subjected to the same sales taxes that apply to the base fare, but as long as the company is counting it as revenue (and I believe all do), then the fees are taxed via the general income tax that the company pays each year.

Quoting Indy (Reply 9):

I am all for fees for carry-on bags OR checked bags.

I firmly believe airlines screwed the pooch going after fees for checked bags vs carry ons. Who values the ability to carry on and overhead bin space the most? Biz travelers! Which group of people is the least price sensitive traveler? Biz travelers! Let those whose time is not as critical go ahead and fill up the cargo bins, while those who wish to avoid the time involved with going to the ticket counter and baggage claim can pay the premium to do so.
"All human activities are doomed to failure." - Jean Paul Sartre
 
Indy
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:02 am

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 24):
Unless I am mistaken, these fees are not "tax-free." They may not be subjected to the same sales taxes that apply to the base fare, but as long as the company is counting it as revenue (and I believe all do), then the fees are taxed via the general income tax that the company pays each year.

Apparently it has to do with excise taxes. Honestly I am not sure what those are.

I think you are completely right in your stance on the missed opportunity when it comes to carry-on bag fees and business travelers. And this fee nonsense has created such a boarding nightmare. People constantly bringing on bags that should have been checked just to avoid a fee. You have aisles blocked while people try and find space for their large bags. There is far too much standing around waiting for some clown to find space for a bag he/she had no business bringing on in the first place.

Fortunately I usually fly F when I go somewhere and I avoid the whole bin battle. But I see it all the time with the people just standing in the aisle waiting for someone to find a home for their large bag and get out of the way. It is ridiculous.
IND to RDU to OKC in 18 months. This is what my life has become.
 
tyler81190
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:55 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 9):
Since airlines cannot be trusted to do the right thing, I would like to see this sort of thing regulated. First off the fees must be taxed. It is an income and should be taxable. But probably the most important regulation should be forbidding airlines from charging fees for both.

Now, I know what I am about to say is blasphemous... but here it goes. Technically Airlines are a company, which by definition is there to make money for its investors and employees. In no other industry do you see any kind of regulation of prices or fees, for example, the doctors office. $112 to take my blood pressure? I would rather pay checked baggage fees at an airline.

Second, I firmly believe any company of any private industry should be able to charge what it wants for what ever t wants to charge for. An airline is NOT public transport, if you don't like the fees of the industry, take greyhound instead. Air service is a premium product in the grand scheme of things, as the train may take 2 or 3 days to cross the US and a plane only takes 5 hours.

As far as taxing all of these fees, I am totally for it, but I think passengers would be more upset about that than the airlines. Your $25 bag just became $26.20 or some odd amount, I think most passengers would not like the idea of un-even fees more than the fee itself.

EDIT:

Also the Feds shouldn't be able to tell a company they can charge for one thing but not the other... It isn't how our economic system was designed to work.

[Edited 2013-10-13 17:57:48]
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:05 am

The $100 is a PENALTY, rather than a fee, as there are MULTIPLE decision points before the gate to pay MUCH less for your carryon.
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srbmod
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:25 am

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 26):
As far as taxing all of these fees, I am totally for it, but I think passengers would be more upset about that than the airlines. Your $25 bag just became $26.20 or some odd amount, I think most passengers would not like the idea of un-even fees more than the fee itself.

That's what has happened at many hotels in regards to resort fees (another similar fee travelers are having to content with more and more). For example, a $25 resort fee in Las Vegas is $28 once the local hotel tax (12%) is added to the fee. If you're staying somewhere more than a night or two, that resort fee really adds up. My last trip to Las Vegas, the resort fee added an addition $140 to my bill.

If airlines started to be taxed on the bag fees, they would probably do like hotels and add the tax into the fee.

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 24):
Unless I am mistaken, these fees are not "tax-free." They may not be subjected to the same sales taxes that apply to the base fare, but as long as the company is counting it as revenue (and I believe all do), then the fees are taxed via the general income tax that the company pays each year.
AAAE Calls On Congress To Close Airline Baggage Fees Tax Loopholes

If bag fees and other currently untaxed fees were subject to the 7.5% Federal tax that airline tickets that would generate a significant amount of tax revenue. United based off the $5.3 billion in ancillary revenues for 2012, would have paid nearly $400 million in taxes on those fee if the loopholes had been closed. That's money that could be used for needed upgrades to airports as well as the ATC system.
 
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mariner
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:50 am

Quoting srbmod (Reply 20):
They're trying to get people to book directly with the airline instead of via a third party site like Expedia, Orbitz, etc. The carry on fee is only charged to tickets bought through a third party site.

Even then, it doesn't always apply. Priceline, for example, has found a way around it, so that their customers booking on Frontier don't pay a carry-on bag fee:

http://blogs.denverpost.com/thebalan...ines-carry-on-fee-loopholes/10490/

"Third-party websites find loopholes to Frontier Airlines’ carry-on bag fees"

Easy-peasey. All four fare types are available to Priceline (and the others) and most of them offer the cheapest one - Basic, which has a carry-on bag fee - to their customers.

Priceline offers the very slightly ($10-$20?) more expensive "economy" fare to their pax and thus there is no carry-on bag fee.  

mariner

[Edited 2013-10-13 18:57:14]
aeternum nauta
 
Indy
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:58 am

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 26):

Second, I firmly believe any company of any private industry should be able to charge what it wants for what ever t wants to charge for. An airline is NOT public transport, if you don't like the fees of the industry, take greyhound instead. Air service is a premium product in the grand scheme of things, as the train may take 2 or 3 days to cross the US and a plane only takes 5 hours.

The problem is that airlines have merged away so much competition. They have basically become unaccountable. I disagree with the idea that airlines aren't public transportation. They may not be government owned but they are every bit as critical. Think of a utility. Your power company is a business. Do they have a right to charge whatever they want? No. Travel is essential and since we are much larger than most countries air travel is critical. Take away air travel and see what happens to the nation. If it were 10 to 15 years ago I would say charge all you want because your customers would just leave and go somewhere else. But with accountability out the window regulation is necessary.
IND to RDU to OKC in 18 months. This is what my life has become.
 
FlyFree27
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:24 am

Bare with me here since im not a customer and am veiwing this from my job stand point. I think this is a good idea because its a control factor. F9 has A319s, a lot of them, over half their fleet. Now this aircraft holds a lot of people for how short it is because its wide, now this brings in the effect of overhead bin space. By effect I mean lack there of. I work for AA and we used to be an all 80 station now were an all 319 station. When we were an 80 station the only gate check bags we had were strollers and the Ocasional 22. Now we get any where from 10-30 22s and the usual amount of strollers and this is affecting our on time departures. It takes time to get 20+ bags down from the jet bridge and on to the plane. Now from a customer stand point this sucks.
 
OB1504
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:14 am

Quoting Jerseyguy (Thread starter):
This will only lead to losing a customer and creating a scene at the airport, on your facebook and twitter feed.

In the words of Spirit Airlines CEO Ben Baldanza: "Let him tell the world how bad we are. He's never flown us before anyway and will be back when we save him a penny."

Quoting Jerseyguy (Thread starter):
Does this really help the bottom line at Spirit and Frontier?

It certainly can't hurt it.

Quoting BN747dfwhnl (Reply 16):
The problem with this stance is that, if the airlines are going to say it's for weight reasons, then they also need to be charging passengers for weighing more than the standardized number they plug into weight calculations for the aircraft. Of course, that would really be outrageous (at least for now, until it finally happens, just like fees for bags and food).

It's not for weight reasons, but to expedite boarding. That's why the carry-on bag fee is intentionally higher than that for the first checked bag. How many times have you seen a passenger in row 30 stop at row 1 and try to stuff his/her oversized carry-on bag into a clearly full bin just because it's the first one he/she saw? Repeat that times 178 passengers on an A320 and it adds up to a meaningful difference in boarding and deboarding times, which is sorely needed as Spirit's on-time statistics are poor to begin with. Spirit wants their passengers to sit down, shut up, and give them more money. If they're going to hold up boarding by fumbling with the overhead, they have to pay for it.

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 19):
In Brazil people don't care if it's the airlines' fault or not, the law says you MUST get your 7,5 USD meal voucher after 2 hours delay! good for travelers, not so good for the airlines.

How is that good for travelers when laws like that (particularly the free baggage allowance of 2 bags at 70 pounds each) would keep out airlines like Spirit that would stimulate demand with ultra-low fares? You're paying for the baggage whether you want to or not.

Quoting Indy (Reply 25):
Apparently it has to do with excise taxes. Honestly I am not sure what those are.

7.5% of the fare. As baggage is no longer seen as part of the base fare, the charges collected separately and exempt from that tax only.

Quoting Indy (Reply 31):
The problem is that airlines have merged away so much competition. They have basically become unaccountable. I disagree with the idea that airlines aren't public transportation. They may not be government owned but they are every bit as critical. Think of a utility. Your power company is a business. Do they have a right to charge whatever they want? No. Travel is essential and since we are much larger than most countries air travel is critical. Take away air travel and see what happens to the nation. If it were 10 to 15 years ago I would say charge all you want because your customers would just leave and go somewhere else. But with accountability out the window regulation is necessary.

I can't choose my power company. As a Miami resident, I have to give money to Florida Power & Light or I won't be able to use my computer to write this post. I can, however, choose my airline. I'm going to Las Vegas in December, and I can choose between American, Delta, Frontier, Spirit, Southwest, United, US Airways, and Virgin America. How is that a lack of competition? We're actually reaching the tipping point where airfares can't get any lower than they already are (without breaking out formerly included services like carry-on baggage), and the remaining airlines have to compete on service and product again like they used to during deregulation. The free market works.
 
tyler81190
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:16 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 31):
The problem is that airlines have merged away so much competition. They have basically become unaccountable. I disagree with the idea that airlines aren't public transportation. They may not be government owned but they are every bit as critical. Think of a utility. Your power company is a business. Do they have a right to charge whatever they want? No. Travel is essential and since we are much larger than most countries air travel is critical. Take away air travel and see what happens to the nation. If it were 10 to 15 years ago I would say charge all you want because your customers would just leave and go somewhere else. But with accountability out the window regulation is necessary.

Well, my point is, why should this be government regulated? No one looks at Cable companies fees, or drug manufacturers prices after mergers, or health insurance for that matter. (with the exception of recently) Why is it that everyone wants to tell an airline what it can charge and no other industry? I am all for lower prices, but from a democratic standpoint, I just see this going way too far if we regulate more and more. Today it is cary-on fees, tomorrow we could be back to fare regulation, or awarding domestic routes again.

Airlines are NOT a government corporation, and therefore, should be able to charge what they want (I know that no one likes extra fees) but it is their right, just as it is Ryan Air's right to charge you to pay for your ticket in some instances, or to have a pre-assigned seat (btw AC does that too)
 
tyler81190
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:18 am

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 33):
The free market works.

You beat me to it... haha
 
ridgid727
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:21 am

Quoting mt99 (Reply 23):
Rant 2: (with a tad of jealousy + partly kidding) Why do airline employees get free flights? I mean they charge me $25 for my little bag yet they have a hand full of full grown adults flying first class for free? and i my fiends in the industry are any indication - boy do they milk it... I understand its parts of your compensation.. but still

My travel privileges are well earned. Why do airline employees get up at 4:00am, or stay at the airport till 2:30am for a delayed flight, deice aircraft in sub-zero weather, marshall aircraft in 100plus or well below zero. Do lav service, clean aircraft bathrooms that somehow got human excrement on the ceiling, or clean up diarrhea from an aircraft seat. check people in who smell like cold sex from 4 days ago, or like they dined on garlic or curry for the last month. Deal with customer complaints because the coffee onboard doesn't taste like their large vente that they had to buy at the airport, or why do airline employees work on Christmas Day when you are with your family or you get to see your young kids be surprised at what Santa did overnight on Christmas morning. why do airline employees deal with someone at a ticket counter who spits at them in every word they utter? Have to deal with someone who is denied boarding because they have lice jumping out of their hair or smell so bad that other passengers in the gate area complain that they are offensive. Or try to find someones cell phone that they left in a seatpocket 4 flights ago. Or tell you 4 or 5 times to turn off the device, and you play it to the hilt, or work extremely extended hours for days on end when weather hits the east coast to rebook and redo reservations so passengers can get where they need to be. So a space available seat on a company aircraft isn't earned?? But still, you are the reason we as airline employees do these things, and listen to people like you complain about one of the privileges we have.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:36 am

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 4):
Having flown Ryanair this month twice, it has been certainly a more relaxed experience that I have had with them before.

I guess their marketing is working then.  
Quoting BN747dfwhnl (Reply 16):
Because it is outrageous. Spirit's signs at the check-in counter read, "We don't want to charge you $100...." Of course they do; that's what they're literally banking on; otherwise, they wouldn't do it.

They are basically BEGGING their passengers to prepay the penalty so that they can avoid the delays and confusion at the gate.

This argument reminds me of when I am counseling an employee and they get an attitude with me. They don't realize that I'm basically pleading with them to change their behavior for the good of the business and their experience, but some people will always see it in the negative - a punishment, "you never liked me", etc. Hello? Did you not pay attention to all of the times that we made you aware of xyz?

Quoting BN747dfwhnl (Reply 16):
So, airlines fleece their customers with ancillary, non-taxed baggage fees instead of just putting the cost in the overall price, and it's the passenger's fault for hauling more stuff on board to avoid such fees?

Fleece?

Scenario 1: Base Fare $100 Ancillaries $80 = Fleeced
Scenario 2: All Inclusive Fare $225 = Now that's better

Oye.

Quoting freakyrat (Reply 21):
When I booked my flight to DEN on flyfrontier.com, I booked a Classic Fare which really wasn't all that much more and includes a free cary-on and a free checked bag and a free soda on board plus early group boarding.

Great example.  
Quoting gustywinds (Reply 22):
I have been pricing fares on WN, F9 and NK from DEN to FLL, and even with paying for a checked bag on NK, it is still half the price of F9. So, I might have to give them a try.

Sorry you don't understand, but if you take the lower fare, you're actually being fleeced.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 23):
Rant 1: It seems that airlines do not charge "what it costs them". they charge "as much as they can". So to a point, the rise of fuel is a bit of red herring.

Rant 1: It seems that airlines have often not charged "what it costs them" BECAUSE they can only charge "as much as they can". In other words, we've had countless YEARS where airlines were unable to even cover their costs with the fares. Suddenly, they figure out a way to earn a profit and you have a problem with it? In the end, who cares how they make a profit, as long as at the end of the day they are able to?

Is a game? Sometimes. Is it a charade? Sometimes. Is it necessary? Sometimes.

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 26):
Air service is a premium product in the grand scheme of things, as the train may take 2 or 3 days to cross the US and a plane only takes 5 hours.

I think that's a point that often gets overlooked. To get on a plane and be 1000 miles away in a few hours, in a totally different climate, and only pay the cost of a night out with the wife at a nice restaurant? Ya, let's all complain about it.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 27):
The $100 is a PENALTY, rather than a fee, as there are MULTIPLE decision points before the gate to pay MUCH less for your carryon.

Exactly.

Quoting Indy (Reply 31):
The problem is that airlines have merged away so much competition. They have basically become unaccountable

Perhaps, but we just recently sent out son to visit grandpa in Alaska on a $200RT fare. It's been years since we've seen that. I just made a roundtrip to SoCal for $178RT. Airlines are about to go nuclear on SFO-SEA. And this is all AFTER merger-mania.

Quoting Indy (Reply 31):
Think of a utility. Your power company is a business. Do they have a right to charge whatever they want? No.

Simply not a fair comparison. I have more than one choice in virtually any medium- to long-distance citypair in America. Short distance I might not but there are cars, buses, and trains, depending on where you're going.

I don't even get a choice with a utility.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
mt99
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:37 am

Quoting ridgid727 (Reply 36):
But still, you are the reason we as airline employees do these things, and listen to people like you complain about one of the privileges we have.

My friends who have nice 9-5 cozy desk jobs do not do any of what you mentioned. and still get the same benefits

Dont take my comments to seriously .. i said before that i say it with a fair amount of jealousy (and respect)  
Step into my office, baby
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:50 am

Quoting ridgid727 (Reply 36):
My travel privileges are well earned. Why do airline employees get up at 4:00am, or stay at the airport till 2:30am for a delayed flight, deice aircraft in sub-zero weather, marshall aircraft in 100plus or well below zero. Do lav service, clean aircraft bathrooms that somehow got human excrement on the ceiling, or clean up diarrhea from an aircraft seat. check people in who smell like cold sex from 4 days ago, or like they dined on garlic or curry for the last month. Deal with customer complaints because the coffee onboard doesn't taste like their large vente that they had to buy at the airport, or why do airline employees work on Christmas Day when you are with your family or you get to see your young kids be surprised at what Santa did overnight on Christmas morning. why do airline employees deal with someone at a ticket counter who spits at them in every word they utter? Have to deal with someone who is denied boarding because they have lice jumping out of their hair or smell so bad that other passengers in the gate area complain that they are offensive. Or try to find someones cell phone that they left in a seatpocket 4 flights ago. Or tell you 4 or 5 times to turn off the device, and you play it to the hilt, or work extremely extended hours for days on end when weather hits the east coast to rebook and redo reservations so passengers can get where they need to be.

So you've worked in restaurants too? Oh, except I don't have pictures of myself sipping a glass of wine by the pool during my layover in PV. lol

J/K   Ya, that's a pretty nasty list. And you guys deserve the benefit that you get.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Type-Rated
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:52 am

Way back when before all the heavy duty security came to airports I saw a guy take a shower stall to the gate and tried to have it checked on a DC9. Then there was a discussion between the gate agent and the shower stall person. When we closed the doors I didn't see either the person with the shower stall or the shower stall itself.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
tyler81190
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:07 am

Quoting ridgid727 (Reply 36):
My travel privileges are well earned. Why do airline employees get up at 4:00am, or stay at the airport till 2:30am for a delayed flight, deice aircraft in sub-zero weather, marshall aircraft in 100plus or well below zero. Do lav service, clean aircraft bathrooms that somehow got human excrement on the ceiling, or clean up diarrhea from an aircraft seat. check people in who smell like cold sex from 4 days ago, or like they dined on garlic or curry for the last month. Deal with customer complaints because the coffee onboard doesn't taste like their large vente that they had to buy at the airport, or why do airline employees work on Christmas Day when you are with your family or you get to see your young kids be surprised at what Santa did overnight on Christmas morning. why do airline employees deal with someone at a ticket counter who spits at them in every word they utter? Have to deal with someone who is denied boarding because they have lice jumping out of their hair or smell so bad that other passengers in the gate area complain that they are offensive. Or try to find someones cell phone that they left in a seatpocket 4 flights ago. Or tell you 4 or 5 times to turn off the device, and you play it to the hilt, or work extremely extended hours for days on end when weather hits the east coast to rebook and redo reservations so passengers can get where they need to be. So a space available seat on a company aircraft isn't earned?? But still, you are the reason we as airline employees do these things, and listen to people like you complain about one of the privileges we have.

You forgot getting yelled at because the weather is bad, and how you ruined christmas because TSA opened all the presents, or actually being spit on by an unhappy passenger. It is really a well earned benefit...
 
tyler81190
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:09 am

Quoting type-rated (Reply 40):
Way back when before all the heavy duty security came to airports I saw a guy take a shower stall to the gate and tried to have it checked on a DC9. Then there was a discussion between the gate agent and the shower stall person. When we closed the doors I didn't see either the person with the shower stall or the shower stall itself.

I have had someone try to convince me that 3 cary-on bags were actually just two bags because the two roller bags were sitting next to eachother.... And someone literally try to carry on a bathroom sink, in the box...
 
ridgid727
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:24 am

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 41):

You forgot getting yelled at because the weather is bad, and how you ruined christmas because TSA

Or tell you their doctor said they have to fly first class because of a condition in their leg, and argue with you when you tell them the fare difference is $769.00, and then tell you that your company will be hearing from their attorney.

[Edited 2013-10-13 21:30:24]
 
Jerseyguy
Topic Author
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:24 am

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 42):
. And someone literally try to carry on a bathroom sink, in the box...

Bathroom sinks are smaller, its the kitchen sink that shouldn't be accepted as a carry-on LOL
 
tyler81190
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:51 am

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 44):
Bathroom sinks are smaller, its the kitchen sink that shouldn't be accepted as a carry-on LOL

You obviously haven't seen some of these bathroom sinks... it must have had part of the counter top in there... it was bordering an oversized bag for 62 linear inches...
 
skycub
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:08 am

How did I know that the MOMENT the original poster mentioned Frontier, that a certain poster would be ALL OVER this thread telling us how Frontier is special and different and doesn't really apply to what is being talked about?

How did I know?

Oh...and I am sure this post will be deleted in a few minutes. LOL.

Maybe this thread should be in one of the SEVERAL Frontier threads currently going on... or perhaps we should just throw it in the NEW ZEALAND aviation thread.
My opinions are my own. They are not representative of my employer, my union or my co-workers. They are all mine.
 
Jerseyguy
Topic Author
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:18 am

Quoting skycub (Reply 46):
Maybe this thread should be in one of the SEVERAL Frontier threads currently going on...

Could we get off of the whole there are too many Frontier threads? Its the law of the board and can't be changed   For the record I talked about Spirit Airlines too as they also have this $100 carry-on at the gate fee. Seems like most people think that it does help or it doesn't hurt and I guess I can't disagree too much with an airline that makes a nice profit every quarter.

Quoting skycub (Reply 46):
How did I know that the MOMENT the original poster mentioned Frontier, that a certain poster would be ALL OVER this thread telling us how Frontier is special and different and doesn't really apply to what is being talked about?

How did I know the minute I started a thread with Frontier in it you'd be here complaining about how many Frontier threads we have LOL
 
Indy
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RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:36 am

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 34):

Well, my point is, why should this be government regulated? No one looks at Cable companies fees, or drug manufacturers prices after mergers, or health insurance for that matter. (with the exception of recently) Why is it that everyone wants to tell an airline what it can charge and no other industry? I am all for lower prices, but from a democratic standpoint, I just see this going way too far if we regulate more and more. Today it is cary-on fees, tomorrow we could be back to fare regulation, or awarding domestic routes again.

The difference is that you have serious and real choices if you don't like what your cable company does. You can get satellite from a few different providers. Heck in some areas you can even pick your cable company. If you don't like those options you can get Fios service and if you don't like that you can get something like Netflix. There are plenty of real choices if you don't like what your cable company does. In fact that is what I do. I refuse to pay the ridiculous rates they charge for poor programming. I get all I need from my HD antenna and from Netflix.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 37):
Simply not a fair comparison. I have more than one choice in virtually any medium- to long-distance citypair in America. Short distance I might not but there are cars, buses, and trains, depending on where you're going.

I don't even get a choice with a utility.

You get the choice for power. You can use the power company or you can get your own source of power like solar and wind. But see how that works? You have "choices" but they are not practical. The same goes for travel. If I want to go from IND to SAN I have choices. I can pay whatever the few airlines left tell me to pay or I can take any number of unreasonable approaches that either cost a fortune or require days of travel. Travel anything over 500 miles and air travel is the only real practical way to go. Go by train? It will take a couple of days. By bus? Every bit as long. Driving? Same. The choices that people imagine exist don't really exist. While it may not be as exaggerated as paying the power company versus living off the grid, you cannot compare the reality of air travel to that of any other method in the U.S.

Do you guys really believe the airlines should be able to charge whatever they want given the few airlines we have left in the U.S.? And for those of you that believe it should be that way, I would bet you have a line that you do not want crossed as well. A completely free market is a very bad thing. Imagine over sold fights with no real penalty to the airline. Imagine delays were you just got left hanging and there was no penalty to the airline. What about getting stuck on a plane for several hours without compensation? Regulations exist to protect consumers from abuses that have happened, do happen, and will happen. If there was so much integrity in business, regulations would never be needed.

What would you do if you woke up tomorrow and every gas station in the country started charging $8 a gallon. Would you just shrug your shoulders and say "oh well its a free market?"
IND to RDU to OKC in 18 months. This is what my life has become.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:38 am

Quoting skycub (Reply 45):
How did I know that the MOMENT the original poster mentioned Frontier, that a certain poster would be ALL OVER this thread telling us how Frontier is special and different and doesn't really apply to what is being talked about?

How did I know?

Oh...and I am sure this post will be deleted in a few minutes. LOL.

Maybe this thread should be in one of the SEVERAL Frontier threads currently going on... or perhaps we should just throw it in the NEW ZEALAND aviation thread.

Yet somehow his posts were 100% more relative and informative than this one. "LOL"  

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
OB1504
Posts: 4016
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:10 am

RE: Does $100 Gate Carry-on Make Sense 4 Airline?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:07 am

Quoting ridgid727 (Reply 35):
My travel privileges are well earned. Why do airline employees get up at 4:00am, or stay at the airport till 2:30am for a delayed flight, deice aircraft in sub-zero weather, marshall aircraft in 100plus or well below zero. Do lav service, clean aircraft bathrooms that somehow got human excrement on the ceiling, or clean up diarrhea from an aircraft seat. check people in who smell like cold sex from 4 days ago, or like they dined on garlic or curry for the last month. Deal with customer complaints because the coffee onboard doesn't taste like their large vente that they had to buy at the airport, or why do airline employees work on Christmas Day when you are with your family or you get to see your young kids be surprised at what Santa did overnight on Christmas morning. why do airline employees deal with someone at a ticket counter who spits at them in every word they utter? Have to deal with someone who is denied boarding because they have lice jumping out of their hair or smell so bad that other passengers in the gate area complain that they are offensive. Or try to find someones cell phone that they left in a seatpocket 4 flights ago. Or tell you 4 or 5 times to turn off the device, and you play it to the hilt, or work extremely extended hours for days on end when weather hits the east coast to rebook and redo reservations so passengers can get where they need to be. So a space available seat on a company aircraft isn't earned?? But still, you are the reason we as airline employees do these things, and listen to people like you complain about one of the privileges we have.
Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 40):

You forgot getting yelled at because the weather is bad, and how you ruined christmas because TSA opened all the presents, or actually being spit on by an unhappy passenger. It is really a well earned benefit...
Quoting ridgid727 (Reply 42):

Or tell you their doctor said they have to fly first class because of a condition in their leg, and argue with you when you tell them the fare difference is $769.00, and then tell you that your company will be hearing from their attorney.

                          

It's even worse for the contracted employees who get absolutely nothing in terms of travel privileges from some airlines.

Quoting Indy (Reply 47):
You get the choice for power. You can use the power company or you can get your own source of power like solar and wind. But see how that works? You have "choices" but they are not practical. The same goes for travel. If I want to go from IND to SAN I have choices. I can pay whatever the few airlines left tell me to pay or I can take any number of unreasonable approaches that either cost a fortune or require days of travel. Travel anything over 500 miles and air travel is the only real practical way to go. Go by train? It will take a couple of days. By bus? Every bit as long. Driving? Same. The choices that people imagine exist don't really exist. While it may not be as exaggerated as paying the power company versus living off the grid, you cannot compare the reality of air travel to that of any other method in the U.S.

Do you guys really believe the airlines should be able to charge whatever they want given the few airlines we have left in the U.S.? And for those of you that believe it should be that way, I would bet you have a line that you do not want crossed as well. A completely free market is a very bad thing. Imagine over sold fights with no real penalty to the airline. Imagine delays were you just got left hanging and there was no penalty to the airline. What about getting stuck on a plane for several hours without compensation? Regulations exist to protect consumers from abuses that have happened, do happen, and will happen. If there was so much integrity in business, regulations would never be needed.

What would you do if you woke up tomorrow and every gas station in the country started charging $8 a gallon. Would you just shrug your shoulders and say "oh well its a free market?"

As you said, regulations are in place to protect passengers from abuses, as they are ultimately buying a service which must be rendered. However, charging whatever the market will bear is not an abuse. It's what our entire economy is based on.

Also, someone flying IND-SAN has at least 6 airlines to choose from. There is only 1 railroad and maybe two 2 lines that could get this hypothetical passenger there. Should we regulate the bus lines, too? What about the railroad, which is already government-owned and hemorrhaging money? Air travel is not a right.

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