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malaysia
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:01 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 45):
God. What are the chances of it being ratified? I know the last one got rejected, and pretty convincingly.

Out of interest, is it possible to indicate which stations would be outsourced?

What I hear from friends at UA is that they will shoot it down again, I think it had something to do with not enough improvement on the Health Benefits vs the first agreement, and something about bumping rights, and a few things. But I heard that the pay scales did go up, but the only stations protected are the hubs and some line stations, like SEA/HNL/PHX I think it was those that still have sUA crew and originally had sCo crew but outsourced that work group and will make it all sUA. so that leaves out all the regional stations and those that never had sCO crew in the past?
There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
 
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Jamake1
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:33 am

Smisek and his elk are completely tone-deaf. I just read through the full Q3 earnings transcript and felt the industry analysts on the call were waaaay too diplomatic in their questioning of United's poor Q3 results. I think it is past time that the financial community give Mr. Smisek a vote of NO CONFIDENCE as he has failed to deliver quarter after quarter. Furthermore, I believe that Mr. Smisek has lost considerable credibility with his employees on both sides of the operation (sub-UA and sub-CO).

Senior management fails to acknowledge that they have alienated and driven away legacy UA's best customers to AA and DL...by way of the disastrous SHARES meltdown. Corporate VP's making comments that sub-UA's IK and Global Service customers were "over-entitled" did nothing to bring them back. In fact, many of them have not come back.

Joint labor contracts were promised within one year of the merger, yet three years into the process, negotiations have slowed to a snail's crawl. Meanwhile, systemic inefficiencies continue to permeate the operation because internally, sub-CO and sub-UA are being operated as two different airlines.

The international product on the 747 fleet is vastly inferior to United's peers. Management's response to its own shortcomings is to hike up the price of alcoholic beverages in the Economy cabin...at a time when most of its peers offer complimentary alcohol in international markets.

I could go on and on, but I think the Q3 numbers speak for themselves...
Come fly the sun.
 
FlyHossD
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 4:44 am

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 34):
If they provided a breakdown it's probably almost exclusively related to the new pilot agreement.

Yet, DL's pilots are paid MORE than the UA's. Hmmm, let's see - didn't DL make a billion dollars more than UA for the Q3?

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 42):
It will be very interesting. UA's biggest issue is that their cost base is simply too high compared to the competition.

But it's not the labor - 3.5 years into the merger and there have still been only very limited realizations of the promised synergies.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:10 am

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 52):
it's not the labor - 3.5 years into the merger and there have still been only very limited realizations of the promised synergies

I don't disagree. Without doing a lot of digging into the subject, I think that it is (a) operational inefficiency [which comes from a lack of proper integration], and (b) bloated management and a top-heavy organizational structure, one which stifles productivity and innovation at the line level.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:16 am

Quoting coairman (Reply 27):
DL buys and keeps older, more gas guzzling aircraft than UA. As mentioned above, DL looks short term and UA looks long term with buying newer and more fuel efficient airplanes.

You mean 49 MD90s??  

Again, I still don't get how this program turned into "DL likes to guy old, used airplanes". They've also taken 10 73Gs, 10 77Ls, has 100 739ERs on order, 30 321s, and 10 333s (newer option). They're leasing 717s to reduce RJ flying. They're also taking on 40 CR9s.

Quoting coairman (Reply 27):
We aren't comparing apples to apples here as far as DL's performance versus UA's.

So how long are we suppose to wait until we can compare the world's largest airline to the world's second largest airline? UA is almost 4 years into this thing. That argument is getting very tired and worn out. Moreso than "when will DL retire their DC9s". And the answer is January...

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 42):
Can we be absolutely clear? DL is not outperforming UA because they fly MD90s

Thank you!!!
What gets measured gets done.
 
COSPN
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:28 am

I will vote Yes    on the Ramp TA because it is crazy to have 3 separate work groups AirMike (still not part of Continental yet) UA, and CO 3 years after the so called "merger" they are cutting the free HMO from the UA guys, but nothing is really "free" anyways..its time to move forward, turn the page and see if the new UA will sink or swim..
 
coairman
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:20 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 54):

Delta has done a great job merging and becoming incredibly profitable. Bravo to DL!   DL truly dominates it's hubs and I think that can contribute to some of the profitably. UA's most dominant hub has been IAH , but the remainder Mainland US hubs have less than 70% market share and many of them have tremendous competition from strong competitors.

I would say after most of the joint labor contracts have been passed. The second major group represented by the IAM could pass a new contract by next Tuesday. Then the F/As and MX would be next. Also it seems that much more hub optimization needs to occur regarding increasing hub profitability at all 10 hubs. 10 hubs are a lot of hubs to manage. Change is in the air, especially after listening to UA's 3rd quarter conference call.
The views I express are of my own, and not the company I work for.
 
adtall
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:39 am

Quoting coairman (Reply 56):

UA has 10 hubs? Out of curiousity (and I really don't know), what's the 10th? I count EWR, CLE, IAD, ORD, IAH, DEN, LAX, SFO, and GUM. Thanks in advance.
 
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jetblastdubai
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:16 am

Quoting adtall (Reply 57):
UA has 10 hubs? Out of curiousity (and I really don't know), what's the 10th?

I believe UA considers NRT a hub.
Every zoo is a petting zoo......if you're a man!
 
gigneil
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:32 am

They made a half BILLION dollars in profit.

There is no construction of the situation that can represent that as doing badly, poorly, or even ok. They're doing great.

Great. DL did better. So what?

NS
 
panamair
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:43 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 59):
There is no construction of the situation that can represent that as doing badly, poorly, or even ok. They're doing great.

Sorry, but $500m profit based upon $10 billion in revenues is not great in the current US airline environment. Especially when almost all of the competition is doing much better on a margin basis. Especially when you are the largest airline in the world with supposedly the best network out there.

Even Smisek and team have acknowledged this and started the analyst call yesterday saying that United is currently underperforming financially.
 
brilondon
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:21 am

Quoting stlgph (Reply 2):
Looking to boost ancillary revenue by 9%

This is what scares me, what else will we have to pay for that was included with your fare in the past?

Quoting codc10 (Reply 6):

Pretty poor showing for the strongest quarter of the year, at least relative to Delta. The clock is ticking on Smisek & Co

Yes, but we should not be comparing a well run company with one that is still getting its house in order .

Quoting kordcj (Reply 11):
Here come the cheerleaders cheering on the fall and imminent collapse of UA because DL made more money. Who knew making half a Billion dollars in 3 months was a bad way of running a business, especially an airline.

Yes, but when you hear something you don't like you criticize the messenger and not the content of the message. Yes, I admit I have a bias towards DL and not a big fan of the Tulip, but I have noticed in the past few months that UA is getting a little better and hope that they will improve as all the problems with the merger are ironed out. Unfortunately, they did miss the mark on some of the metrics that are used by the market and we will have to wait and see how they are doing at the end of the fiscal year and what plans they have to move forward.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
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jetblastdubai
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:18 am

So now the blame game begins....management vs. labor, labor vs. labor, those with a 'good' contract vs. those without one etc.

This is only going to lead to more internal problems and finger-pointing so someone had better get their act together fast before moral drops even farther.
Every zoo is a petting zoo......if you're a man!
 
United1
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:36 am

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 62):

So now the blame game begins....management vs. labor, labor vs. labor, those with a 'good' contract vs. those without one etc.

This is only going to lead to more internal problems and finger-pointing so someone had better get their act together fast before moral drops even farther.

I don't see any blame game going on (except on this board...and this board loves to fling it) listening in on the conference call yesterday UA talked about what the issues are and some of the changes that they are going to be making. One of them is their pricing and that's an easy fix to make (and has already been done.)

Quoting brilondon (Reply 61):
This is what scares me, what else will we have to pay for that was included with your fare in the past?

They are already on track with their 9% increase this year...most of that was done by changing the way that Y+ is priced. Instead of pricing based on distance/route they changed it to a dynamic model taking demand into account.

Quoting panamair (Reply 60):
Even Smisek and team have acknowledged this and started the analyst call yesterday saying that United is currently underperforming financially.

I can't argue with that but there are a few on this board who see to think the sky is falling and that UA is closing up shop tomorrow....that is simply not the case.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
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jetblastdubai
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:57 am

Quoting United1 (Reply 63):
I don't see any blame game going on

I had a couple long chats with the FAs on #976 this week....there's definitely in-house tension out there. They want a contract but it seems like the UA side of the equation isn't budging on some of the work rules that the CO side of the team either have or had in the past. They specifically mentioned that CO FAs were allowed to work transcon round-trips and it seems that the UA people weren't going for that at all. They'd also like to be able to fly any aircraft in the fleet as it would give them more bidding options but that's still on hold.

Never flown a CO-crewed long-haul trip so haven't had the chance to engage in any conversation with that side of the equation. Granted I only got one side of the story and I'm sure there are more issues but they've had THREE stinkin' years to get this worked out. Maybe all this "Delta this and Delta that" news will get someone's attention at WHQ and make something happen sooner than later.
Every zoo is a petting zoo......if you're a man!
 
United1
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:18 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 64):
They want a contract but it seems like the UA side of the equation isn't budging on some of the work rules that the CO side of the team either have or had in the past. They specifically mentioned that CO FAs were allowed to work transcon round-trips and it seems that the UA people weren't going for that at all. They'd also like to be able to fly any aircraft in the fleet as it would give them more bidding options but that's still on hold.

That's tension...I think I define tension differently...that sounds like the UA and CO unions working on negotiation with each other. They do have contracts btw (all of which were agreed to post merger IIRC) they are working on negotiating a single contract.

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 64):
but they've had THREE stinkin' years to get this worked out

Did you know it took DL about 3 years (I think a bit longer actually) to finally de-certify its unions? Union negotiations take time and while we would all like it to be done yesterday that's not a realistic.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
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Jamake1
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:37 pm

JP Morgan just downgraded UCH to underweight from neutral due to the company's discouraging Q4 guidance.

http://www.theflyonthewall.com/perma...derweight-from-Neutral-at-JPMorgan
Come fly the sun.
 
BrianDromey
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:40 pm

US still runs two airlines, nearly a decade later, apparently getting quite a lot of benefits from this.

The big story here is not cost, it's revenue. Simply put UA trails it's peers. Despite being the largest airline, with the "best" network it has not been able to leverage this. Simply put the product and the brand need reimagining. UA needed to do more three years on than scratch out CO and scratch in UA. The products, the uniforms, the procedures, the lounges, the seat coverings, etc should all be consistent, UNITED if you will. UA has fallen into the same trap as always, it needs to grow the top line, not just cut the bottom.
 
justloveplanes
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:47 pm

Well,

Is there anyone here with enough information to figure out how UA's margins and profit would increase if its unit revenue matched Delta's?

Quoting panamair (Reply 43):
They have a revenue problem these days as well. Unit revenues have been lagging not only Delta, but American. Sorry, but for the world's largest airline that supposedly has the 'best network', they are underperforming on the top-line front.

  

So they are behind Delta and American on both of those, and looking at the contract discussions, probably productivity, which they also need to solve.

What is an unknown is that refinery Delta purchased, how much of an effect that is having. That one is hats off to Delta for out of the box thinking. They said effective, which I take them at their word is doing the job it was supposed to and act like a massive and affordable hedge. This might be a permanent advantage to Delta that UA and AA can't easily match.

The other big difference is Delta's fleet strategy, which helps the bottom line immensely NOW (maybe not later)... they have MUCH less aircraft of leasing payments than UA or AA (or anybody else, except Lufty, which appears to do the same thing, buy and drive). As long as cheap, used and reasonably efficient aircraft are available, this is a permanent edge to Delta. Aside from their 747's, don't see any big gas guzzling holes at DL. DL's risk here (mitigated by their refinery) are oil spikes for extended periods of time that only more efficient aircraft can deal with, and that time may or may not come. Also if used airplane prices go up, which would happen if folks held onto their 737 and 320 and 767 longer.... like DL  

So UA has to first of all come out of it's unit revenue hole; downgrading the level of the soft product isn't helping (my opinion). They need a productivity based union contract second and the rest is internal management. They are having lots of trouble with their 747's too it seems like. Don't know why. Wondering if the 787 issues had an effect on unit revenues...
 
Rdh3e
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:27 pm

Quoting COSPN (Reply 46):
Outsourcing line stations wont help.. its the extra layers of management, making 100K plus.. they outsourced cargo, but added more cargo managers..

They did not add managers (any employee can look it up) not sure where you heard they added managers.

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 52):
Yet, DL's pilots are paid MORE than the UA's. Hmmm, let's see - didn't DL make a billion dollars more than UA for the Q3?

I merely said that is why labor costs went up, didn't use it to say that is why UA is lagging DL.

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 62):
So now the blame game begins....management vs. labor, labor vs. labor, those with a 'good' contract vs. those without one etc.

No one is blaming anyone.

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 64):
had a couple long chats with the FAs on #976 this week....there's definitely in-house tension out there. They want a contract but it seems like the UA side of the equation isn't budging on some of the work rules that the CO side of the team either have or had in the past.

As said above, this is an issue between the UA and CO flight attendants where their contract desires are so far apart it's almost hard to believe.
 
jayunited
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:29 pm

Quoting codc10 (Reply 6):
Pretty poor showing for the strongest quarter of the year, at least relative to Delta. The clock is ticking on Smisek & Co.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
Even when you compare it to the same period in DL's merger, which has about a 3 year lead....
Quoting delimit (Reply 10):
Given the relative strength of the market compared.to 3 years ago, the contrast is rather more stark.

I think you guys are correct if we compare where UA is now to where DL was at the 3 mark in there merger with NW its obvious that UA is way behind where DL was at this point. Every quarter it is one excuse after another as to why UA performance isn't where it should be 3 years into this merger. In a lot of instances I defend UA on this website because I am an employee but there is no defense for this abysmal performance even though this 3rd quarter performance was better than our performance in 2012 it still wasn't enough.

When I read Smisek & CO response on Flying Together (employee intranet) he keeps saying the same thing over and over again. "I'm very disappointed with UA financial performance although we have the best route structure we need to do more to optimize not only our route structure but our aircraft as well and do it in a cost effective manner." He also keeps touting UA is replacing older aircraft with newer more efficient aircraft amongst other excuses. But when I look at DL they have a mixture of old and new aircraft, DL has a rather larger narrow body order outstanding and they also have some wide bodies on order as well but yet some how DL have figured out how to optimize their fleet. UA (Smisek & CO) have blamed this quarters poor performance on to many "low yield" bookings and in a private video on the employee intranet UA even had executives talk about a few things and what stood out for me was the conversation about our revenue from baggage fees having dropped this past quarter as more and more customers decide to check their bags at the gate for free. I hope that video is never made public because blaming the customer for deciding to check their bags at the gate is really disgusting. If a customers bag can make it thru the x-ray machine whats wrong with them using that loophole and checking their bag at the gate for free. I'm sure DL has a lot of customers who are using that same loop hole and checking their bag at the gate but yet DL performance was still much better than UA's. When leadership start blaming customers for their failures then I think its time for leadership to go.

What our 3rd quarter performance showed is that all these fare wars UA engaged in with so many other airlines really did hurt UA's bottom line and although UA has billions in the bank the decisions made by senior level management really did cost this airline hundreds of millions of dollars. Saying we had to many low yield bookings this quarter is part of the reason for our poor performance well in my opinion UA made those low yield booking available so of course customers are going to book the lowest available fare but you don't blame the customer for that. I have to wonder how much money did UA loose trying to fight of competitors with some of the low ball fares we saw this past quarter in certain markets?

In the end I have to wonder was going to war with all these other airlines worth the cost? I understand that UA has to defend itself when another airline enters its turf but it seems like UA has done more damage to itself than any competitor could ever hope to achieve. Although 2013 has been much better for UA than 2012 we are not where we should be and the time for excuses is running out. This airline has potential what we need is leadership who understands the potential and knows how to make UA live up to its potential. When I look at DL from an outsiders point of view I see an airline that is well managed an airline that is moving in the right direction and leaders who understand the business they are in, these are things UA does not have.
 
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jetblastdubai
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:27 pm

Quoting jayunited (Reply 70):
UA has billions in the bank the decisions made by senior level management really did cost this airline hundreds of millions of dollars
Quoting RDH3E (Reply 69):
No one is blaming anyone.

Which one is it?   
Every zoo is a petting zoo......if you're a man!
 
masseybrown
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 4:57 pm

Quoting justloveplanes (Reply 68):
What is an unknown is that refinery Delta purchased, how much of an effect that is having. That one is hats off to Delta for out of the box thinking.

During the Carter Administration's oil crisis, AMR, with a lot of Texas bluster, bought some producing oil fields. They lost a bunch of money on them and quietly sold them a few years later.

To date DL isn't doing so well either, although refining is currently the "sweet spot" in the oil business. I'd say the jury is still out on the wisdom of DL's refinery investment. Fortunately the profitability of the airline business is allowing them the luxury of time to fine tune their oil operation.
 
apodino
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:03 pm

I was trying to scrutinize the earnings statement a little more. Interestingly enough, Express has a 10 cent higher RASM than Mainline, which is understandable because many of the Express markets are usually used by business travellers, where Mainline includes some places like MCO and LAS. The problem is that UA is still only getting 1.9 Billion in revenue from the express operations, where 7 Billion in revenue comes from the mainline side. Also troubling is that they had an 11 percent drop in revenue to Asia compared to a year ago, where Europe had an 11 percent gain. I don't know what the yields on these are, but I suspect that Asia is a concern for Smisek & Co.

I will post more on this in the future, as I am trying to interpret Delta's earnings statement for comparison, but it is hard to find a lot of the key measures on that report.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:10 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 72):
To date DL isn't doing so well either, although refining is currently the "sweet spot" in the oil business. I'd say the jury is still out on the wisdom of DL's refinery investment.

I think it's safe to say the airline is doing so well it can cover up side projects like the refinery 
Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 67):
Simply put the product and the brand need reimagining.

The product has never been better and the brand is a non issue, except on a.net where people still self-immolate over such things.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 59):
There is no construction of the situation that can represent that as doing badly, poorly, or even ok. They're doing great.

Always there to provide a confident assessment with no basis in fact or context... UA HR is on the other line offering you a job 
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
apodino
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:15 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 72):
Quoting justloveplanes (Reply 68):
What is an unknown is that refinery Delta purchased, how much of an effect that is having. That one is hats off to Delta for out of the box thinking.

During the Carter Administration's oil crisis, AMR, with a lot of Texas bluster, bought some producing oil fields. They lost a bunch of money on them and quietly sold them a few years later.

To date DL isn't doing so well either, although refining is currently the "sweet spot" in the oil business. I'd say the jury is still out on the wisdom of DL's refinery investment. Fortunately the profitability of the airline business is allowing them the luxury of time to fine tune their oil operation.

According to DL's earnings statement, they lost 90 Million on the refinery, but that was more than made up for by their fuel hedging for the quarter.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:22 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 75):
According to DL's earnings statement, they lost 90 Million on the refinery, but that was more than made up for by their fuel hedging for the quarter.

Are the two even remotely connected? I'd think they could hedge all they want without the refinery; everyone else does.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
airtechy
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:25 pm

Delta is in the very enviable position of being dominate in the majority of their hubs, having a good balance of newer and older aircraft that they can optimize their routes with, a mostly non-union workforce that is well paid and is going to get a lot of profit sharing rewards, and a large .. and getting larger .. corporate customer base.

Even though I believe the pilot contract runs until 2015, it wouldn't surprise me if they are already negotiating the next one. Having labor peace allows management to concentrate on their main task of making money.....and they really seem to be doing that in spades.

Jim
 
Prost
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:26 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 75):
According to DL's earnings statement, they lost 90 Million on the refinery, but that was more than made up for by their fuel hedging for the quarter.

I'm not an accountant, and I'm not questioning your reading of the statement, but what was the $3 million profit on Trainer that was mentioned on the conference call? Is the $90 million lost you are mentioning cumulative, and the $3 million profit I'm mentioning quarterly?

What I'd be interested to know (bringing this back to UAL: moderators-happy) how much did the reduced crack spreads help UAL's earnings? Would we even be able to glean that information from the statements?
 
brilondon
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:36 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 75):
According to DL's earnings statement, they lost 90 Million on the refinery, but that was more than made up for by their fuel hedging for the quarter.

I read this as the cost of running their own refinery and not a loss in the traditional sense, but I am not sure how they account for that cost to produce their own fuel. Also, do they sell the fuel to other airlines or is it only for DL to use. If it the later, then they will always loose money on this venture a it was never to make money but as a counter measure against the fluctuations in the price of fuel.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
bkflyguy
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:46 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 79):
lso, do they sell the fuel to other airlines or is it only for DL to use.

I believe all of the Jet A produced goes to NYC - part of the purchase included a pipeline to NY Harbor. The non-Jet A is exchanged with other companies for a corresponding amount of Jet A at other airports. e.g. Delta trades all of the diesel produced for a corresponding amount of Jet A based on price, I'm sure.
 
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airzim
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:11 pm

Quoting jayunited (Reply 70):

The problem is Jay, the excuses are in fact real issues that seriously need to be addressed. And to be honest, an employee posting on a public forum complaining about their employer solidifies in my mind that the rank and file of United need to get their s*it together and stop whining about the things they can't control and start taking responsibilities for their actions.

You need to take a serious look in the mirror about how you want to discuss the place you work in public. It also pretty clear in your posting that you don't have the foggiest idea what you're talking about because if you did, you wouldn't be on here discussing it.
 
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TVNWZ
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:24 pm

Quoting airtechy (Reply 77):
Even though I believe the pilot contract runs until 2015, it wouldn't surprise me if they are already negotiating the next one. Having labor peace allows management to concentrate on their main task of making money.....and they really seem to be doing that in spades.

If they keep putting up numbers like they have the pilots, and everyone else, will want a bigger slice of that. It will be interesting to see how that goes and how much , and fast, costs climb in the next couple of years.
 
Prost
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:27 pm

Delete
delete
delete

[Edited 2013-10-25 11:28:25]
 
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mbm3
Posts: 758
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 10:54 am

RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:32 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 16):
That doesn't surprise me. I've seen some pretty low fares on UA, fares that make you wonder why they're so low. It seems like they could be charging higher fares.

Those low fares to fill the seats in secondary markets are riding on the back of extortionist pricing at many, if not all, of the hubs. Both business and leisure fares are out of control here in Cleveland, much more than just the "hub premium" that Mr. Smisek used to preach in the CO days. From what I have been told, other hubs are similar and I just do not see how it is good business to alienate your best customers in one's misguided efforts to wrangle control over a bloated, inefficient organization...

Quoting codc10 (Reply 6):
Pretty poor showing for the strongest quarter of the year, at least relative to Delta. The clock is ticking on Smisek & Co.

It is all about the bottom line numbers for the UACO BoD and very soon they simply will not be able to cut expense any more, they will need to do a "D" check on the company. And that starts from the top.
Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
 
T5towbar
Posts: 445
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:25 pm

Quoting airzim (Reply 81):
The problem is Jay, the excuses are in fact real issues that seriously need to be addressed. And to be honest, an employee posting on a public forum complaining about their employer solidifies in my mind that the rank and file of United need to get their s*it together and stop whining about the things they can't control and start taking responsibilities for their actions.

You need to take a serious look in the mirror about how you want to discuss the place you work in public. It also pretty clear in your posting that you don't have the foggiest idea what you're talking about because if you did, you wouldn't be on here discussing it.

But everybody already knew what the real problems were and they did not address them. They knew that the labor issue needed to be settled first and foremost. But they dragged their feet on it. So we are still running TWO separate airlines still. Plus other decisions that management made caused issues as well. The SHARES issues. The 787 grounding. The fare war with VX. This was public knowledge before and during the merger.

This is all on the upper management.
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
 
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airzim
Posts: 1411
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:41 pm

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 85):
But everybody already knew what the real problems were and they did not address them. They knew that the labor issue needed to be settled first and foremost. But they dragged their feet on it. So we are still running TWO separate airlines still. Plus other decisions that management made caused issues as well. The SHARES issues. The 787 grounding. The fare war with VX. This was public knowledge before and during the merger.

This is all on the upper management.

Again, employees talking out of their arse without a clue of what's actually going on.

If you folks don't realize that you're in this together and stop being so sanctimonious and pointing fingers at who's at fault and work together, you reap what you sow.
 
aaexecplat
Posts: 499
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:49 pm

RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:26 pm

Quoting jayunited (Reply 70):

Jay. You are missing the forest for the trees...the problem isn't the various small issues UA trots out every quarter or fare wars with competitors...the problem is that they went to war with their customers. First they called us overentitled, then they slashed MP benefits across the board to levels BELOW AA and DL, and simultaneously, their penny-wise pound foolish decisions created a very volatile operation that lags its peers in reliability and stability.

When AA saw what was going on at UA, they opened the floodgates and engineered the biggest status match program they have done in the 12 years I have been EXP. While I don't have any public numbers, I spoke to several agents about the scale of the call volume, and let's just say it was overwhelming.

THAT is the reason why PRASM growth is lagging. Elite benefits are worse on UA than DL, AA, and US and operation is unreliable. HVFs don't want to deal with this kind of stuff. The elite benefits are secondary, but the reliability factor has cost UA tons of corporate high value contracts.

THAT is also why they are having to discount so much on average/across the system. With many HVFs gone, there is now additional pressure to reel in the infrequent traveler and kayaker...an they are more price sensitive. At the same time, there is pressure to generate ancillary revenue via fees to make up for the loss of HVFs, which further erodes the elite proposition. One such example is the recent lowering of Star Alliance Gold Baggage Allowances and the introduction of PQD. Both are geared to encourage more fees.

In the meantime, the competition can engage in fare wars more readily because they have picked up a ton of HVFs that give them some cushion. UA, with its relatively razor thin operating margins is far more vulnerable at this point.

If UA wants to get out of the death spiral, it needs to realize that ALL customers are a good thing...not just a small subset that there are very few of. And they need to "get" that to make money, they need to spend money. Driving all the Silvers and Golds away with the massive reduction of RDMs sounds great on the surface until the Gold that was previously flying TPAC in J and F 2-3 times a year leaves and now flies AA/JL/CX or even one of the non-JV Star airlines like TG or SQ.

For full disclosure, I am AA EXP and UA 1k and due to scheduling issues, I will be shifting the lion share of my flying (about 175k) from AA to UA next year. That is ONLY happening because UA flies a couple of flights that I absolutely need. Otherwise, I would be flying mostly AA. And everyone I talk that travels as much as I do to thinks the same way. UA needs to break that cycle and quickly.
 
jayunited
Posts: 2137
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:07 pm

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 87):

   I have to agree with everything that you said in your post you are spot on.

Quoting airzim (Reply 81):
The problem is Jay, the excuses are in fact real issues that seriously need to be addressed. And to be honest, an employee posting on a public forum complaining about their employer solidifies in my mind that the rank and file of United need to get their s*it together and stop whining about the things they can't control and start taking responsibilities for their actions.

You need to take a serious look in the mirror about how you want to discuss the place you work in public. It also pretty clear in your posting that you don't have the foggiest idea what you're talking about because if you did, you wouldn't be on here discussing it.

First of all never once did i post a complaint about UA I posted the truth and everything that I post is all public knowledge except for the baggage fees and there is nothing wrong with posting that information on this or any other website. Secondly posting truth on this website is not whining it is simply the truth. I know the truth is hard to face especially when it is a company that you work for but the only way for things to change at UA is for us to face the truth about where we are. Most employees attitudes at work have changed it's no longer a UA vs CO mentality that we saw all through out 2012 now most employees are in fact working together and our service has improved. But no I am not happy with where UA is at today and if you are then perhaps you should take a look in the mirror because there is much room for improvement here at UA and there is nothing wrong with saying that on this website. I'm dealing with where UA is at this time not with where UA wants to be. We all know where UA wants and has the potential to be the question is how do we get there. So if my post offended you to bad I stand by it 100% because UA has to do better and we can't keep coming up with excuses for our poor financial performance especially when our competitors are out performing us. Pull your head out of the sand and look at what DL did this past quarter and even look at AA's performance even though they are still in BK they have a really good 3rd quarter and once AA comes out of BK whether they merge or remain a stand alone carrier they will come after UA with everything they can muster.

You want to make excuses for UA and live in denial please continue to make excuses but I can't our financial performance this quarter should have been much better than what it was and that is the truth.
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:17 pm

Quoting Prost (Reply 78):
What I'd be interested to know (bringing this back to UAL: moderators-happy) how much did the reduced crack spreads help UAL's earnings? Would we even be able to glean that information from the statements?

This is one of the all-time "hypotheticals" in accounting. Nobody knows. So, they can say anything and it is probably true. The operating profit of the plant is interesting. Hypothetical fuel savings are tough. Unfit for formal accounting, though DL may try.

UAL will be helped just as much, if not more (less effort).

[Edited 2013-10-25 14:18:28]
 
CO777DAL
Posts: 427
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:01 am

RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:31 pm

Quoting jayunited (Reply 70):
(Smisek & CO) have blamed this quarters poor performance on to many "low yield" bookings and in a private video on the employee intranet UA even had executives talk about a few things and what stood out for me was the conversation about our revenue from baggage fees having dropped this past quarter as more and more customers decide to check their bags at the gate for free.

I feel an "enhancement" coming. UA said they are looking to boost ancillary revenue by 9%. I can see it now. To better serve our customers we offer a $50 convenience fee to gate check your bag. Now you don't have to worry about find a spot for it on board or lugging it through the terminal on your connection. For 50 bucks the friendly gate agent will check it to your final destination and your bag will be waiting for you at baggage claim.   

[Edited 2013-10-25 14:33:47]
Worked Hard. Flew Right. Farewell, Continental. Thanks for the memories.
 
mcg
Posts: 963
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:49 am

RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:25 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 72):
Quoting justloveplanes (Reply 68):
What is an unknown is that refinery Delta purchased, how much of an effect that is having. That one is hats off to Delta for out of the box thinking.

During the Carter Administration's oil crisis, AMR, with a lot of Texas bluster, bought some producing oil fields. They lost a bunch of money on them and quietly sold them a few years later.

To date DL isn't doing so well either, although refining is currently the "sweet spot" in the oil business. I'd say the jury is still out on the wisdom of DL's refinery investment. Fortunately the profitability of the airline business is allowing them the luxury of time to fine tune their oil operation.

The refinery is a money pit. DL invested $150 million in it and has about $130 million in accumulated losses (forgive me in advance, I'm working from memory here, these numbers are approximate). $3 million profit is rounding error.

For the record, DL is a well oiled machine. It's a very well run airline. DL is not so good at oil refining, which is a very difficult business.
 
777ord
Posts: 681
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RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:00 am

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 64):

CO FA's are certified to fly them all. It helps especially with Reserve FA's and call outs especially.I don't know why a UA FA wouldn't want that... Especially if they are more senior to another on say a 737 pairing with tons of DH or great layovers?

Quoting gigneil (Reply 59):

Compared to what they wanted to make this quarter which I can't reveal. I'm hesitant to see EOY results....
 
COSPN
Posts: 1722
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 6:33 am

RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:10 am

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 69):
They did not add managers (any employee can look it up) not sure where you heard they added managers.

sCO hired managers and sups to oversee the "new" cargo vendor who has their own mangers and sups so now cargo has 3 times as many managers as before... plus many more in Chicago, Cargo used to make big money for sCO now its way down and customers are going elsewhere,
 
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RyanairGuru
Posts: 7766
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:33 am

Quoting apodino (Reply 73):
11 percent drop in revenue to Asia compared to a year ago, where Europe had an 11 percent gain. I don't know what the yields on these are, but I suspect that Asia is a concern for Smisek & Co.

The weak yen, and increasing competition on the USA-PRC routes (United's pride and joy) have harmed TPAC yields this year. With the yen rebounding, UA better adjusting capacity to demand (more 747s to ORD), and adding less competitive markets such as CTU, they will hopefully see TPAC revenue pick up over the next 12 months, which will have a positive impact on revenues systemwide given that TPAC is such a big part of UA's operation.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 69):
this is an issue between the UA and CO flight attendants where their contract desires are so far apart it's almost hard to believe

Absolutely, I've heard it said that they are years away from reaching an agreement. The differences seem to be truly irreconcilable at this stage.

From what I can gather, CO and UA had radically different contracts, work rules etc with their FAs, and both sides like what they have at the moment and don't want to move to the other side conditions (or even compromise half way).
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
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malaysia
Posts: 2641
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 1999 3:26 am

RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:57 am

Quoting COSPN (Reply 55):
free HMO from the UA guys

I think with the new TA2 still will stay but only for SFO I heard and it only will be the employee only and its really due to SFO airport ordnance for insurance and minimum wages?

LAX has some ordnance of like $15.40 minimum wage for all AOA workers, I think? I heard that SEA is pushing for a $15 airport worker minimum wage.
There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
 
FlyDeltaJets
Posts: 1652
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:24 pm

RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Sat Oct 26, 2013 1:51 am

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 25):
(I don't believe RJs are allowed to fly between hubs

UA operates E170 and E145 aircraft (one each day) between DEN and IAH.[/quote]

The mainline rule applies to sUA hubs.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
CO777DAL
Posts: 427
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:01 am

RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:41 am

Quoting flydeltajets (Reply 96):

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 25):
(I don't believe RJs are allowed to fly between hubs

UA operates E170 and E145 aircraft (one each day) between DEN and IAH.

The mainline rule applies to sUA hubs.[/quote]


Well today UA had a ERJ-145 flying from ORD to IAD. I also saw IAH-CLE so it looks like with both sUA and sCO the new UA can fly whatever they like where they like.
Worked Hard. Flew Right. Farewell, Continental. Thanks for the memories.
 
United1
Posts: 3829
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:03 am

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 97):
Well today UA had a ERJ-145 flying from ORD to IAD. I also saw IAH-CLE so it looks like with both sUA and sCO the new UA can fly whatever they like where they like.

The new contract allows a certain percentage of ASMs on hub to hub flights to be flown by RJs.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
CALMSP
Posts: 2982
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

RE: UAL Reports Q3 2013 Earnings

Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:06 am

Quoting COSPN (Reply 93):

are you sure? I dont know of any new employees that joined the company in the cargo division.

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