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kalvado
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RE: DOT Fines United - $1.1mil - Tarmac Delay

Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:52 pm

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 38):
Can't the DOT just have the authority to levy a fine if the situation warrants it, rather than hold firm to an arbitrary time limit?

This is not how laws work.
Airlines, however, had every opportunity to implement common sense based system. There were multiple high profile screwups leading to the legislation. Same as laws and law enforcement system are in place for those who don't understand what "Thou shalt not kill" and "Thou shalt not steal" mean.

Quoting Mir (Reply 46):

Nor should you treat a delay where the airline keeps the cabin at a comfortable temperature and gives the passengers plenty of snacks and water the same as a delay where the airline doesn't do those things.

Well, we're talking about 1000 people on 13 flights - about 70 pax per per flights - and load factors are pretty high these days. Most likely those were RJs, which have no fuel and no room for water and food (or waste in tanks) to actually support 3+ hours delay plus a flight to the destination (and most likely not fully serviced but just refueled at outstation for the return flight)
 
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jetblastdubai
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RE: DOT Fines United - $1.1mil - Tarmac Delay

Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:04 pm

Quoting dispatchguy (Reply 49):
Every taxiway/runway that wasnt in use for landing aircraft was in use for parking aircraft (think of the pictures at Halifax on 9/11/2001). At one time I remember the ORD Ground Controller saying that there were over 80 aircraft parked on a taxiway or a runway trying to get to a gate.

This happened quite at bit at ORD because we were almost always at, or very near capacity and any disruption in our free-flow of traffic had snowball effects. ORD's issue was that because of the lack of holding "pads" we put planes nose-to-tail on taxiways and if the 25th guy in line got a gate, we had to have numbers 1 thru 24 start their engines and move the whole conga line up so the guy with the gate could peel off at the first available intersection. Places like DFW, DEN or MCO with far more concrete can hold aircraft wing-to-wing and simply drive individual planes out when they have a place to go.

I'm no airline staffing expert and I'm sure there are some pretty sharp minds out there but I always wondered why the legacy carriers did so much crew swapping at hubs instead of just staying with the same airplane until their duty day was over. I know a lot of UA crews have 3:59 layovers at some hubs only because they're guaranteed an airport hotel for anything more than a 4-hour layover. Why not just stay with the plane they came in on and not risk the chance of having a crew not show up for a flight because they're stuck on another inbound flight? The planes don't sit at the gate for 4 hours so it shouldn't be a problem for the crew to stay with it. I see this quite a bit now with UAX at ORD in perfect weather. Outbound is late because the crew is flying in on another plane.

copter808...thanks for the virtual 'pat on the back'!
 
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CALTECH
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RE: DOT Fines United - $1.1mil - Tarmac Delay

Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:05 pm

Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 42):
Just curious. How many people inside an airplane have died or been seriously injured by lightning? And how many when the doors were closed?

Shouldn't be any at all, Faraday cage effect. But touching the outside skin, that is deadly.

Quoting BC77008 (Reply 43):
It's only 1.1million so not really that much. Instead of the government collecting these fines and keeping it, they should redistribute these fines to the people that sat on these airplanes and were inconvenienced. As a flight attendant I'd love to make an announcement "Ladies and Gentlemen, we will be stuck on the tarmac for the next 4 hours, however, each one of you will walk off of this airplane $27,500 richer!"

So you would like a lotto for a cheap ticket, $27,500 for a $100/$300 ticket because you were inconvinienced. Funny though that the government keeps the money and spends it as it sees fit, and does not distribute it to the passengers who were so 'inconvinienced.' Will just raise the cost of a plane ticket.

Quoting copter808 (Reply 44):
I have personally seen this happen. I was walking through the parking lot at OSH one day several years ago when a bolt of lightning struck a nearby pole. Sky at OSH was mainly clear and the closest thunderstorm was probably 15 miles to the south!

Have seen too many 'bolts from the blue' and too close to them. Launching a FedEx 727 in ABQ, thunderstorm was forming over the airport, trying to get the plane out before that happened. Bolt hit somewhere nearby filling the headset with loud static. FedEx was late departing ABQ by a few hours that evening. Unnerving to say the least.

Quoting Mir (Reply 46):
Nor should you treat a delay where the airline keeps the cabin at a comfortable temperature and gives the passengers plenty of snacks and water the same as a delay where the airline doesn't do those things. The former case is arguably better than being stuck in a gate area waiting to see when you're going to board again, and is really no different from the plane being in the air (and we don't let passengers decide they want to get off because they've had enough of sitting in their seat three hours into a six hour flight). In the latter case, three hours is probably too long.

In EWR, remember a Continental flight was delayed to weather around EWR. They serviced our LAVs, restocked food and beverages, and it wasn't too bad for the 7+ hours we sat on the plane. Had quite a few Bloody Marys. My book was excellent. After we took off, there was a little line of small thunderstorms about 20 minutes from EWR. The rest of the flight into St. Louis was smooth. Not always the airlines fault.

Quoting cmf (Reply 47):
So you think the fines should be such that the airline consider them a cost of doing business instead of being so severe they change their way of doing business? Isn't it the refusal to change their way of doing business that caused the fines to be implemented?

Change business how exactly ? Do you go back to the gate and start over or redo everything, or do you stay out on the ramp/ taxiways hoping the stop gets lifted and everyone gets on their way quickly, and safely to their destination. I never minded delays, they were a nuisance but part of doing business. I'd rather be onboard and ready for takeoff than be brought back to the terminal.

Quoting VC10er (Reply 48):
I vividly recall the Northwest flight that was delayed MANY hours on the taxi way (or runway - can't remember exactly) to the point where toilets overflowed with human waste, no drinking water etc and passengers called 911 from their cell phones saying "I am being held hostage by Northwest Airlines!"

Now that is a case that needs to never happen again, if possible, though there were mitigating circumstances and it was a unique set of events. At least Northwest tried to make amends by giving the passengers vouchers, rather than paying a fine to the government.


http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/story?id=118577&page=1
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ca2ohHP
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RE: DOT Fines United - $1.1mil - Tarmac Delay

Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:34 pm

Why does the gov't get the majority of the fine? And $400k for a ground monitoring system? Why doesn't UA already have that in place in a hub like ORD? Invest in a self-parking system like AA has. Good grief UA. If anything, the pax should get all of the $1.1mil divided up.
 
Goldenshield
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RE: DOT Fines United - $1.1mil - Tarmac Delay

Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:39 pm

Quoting kalvado (Reply 50):
Well, we're talking about 1000 people on 13 flights - about 70 pax per per flights - and load factors are pretty high these days. Most likely those were RJs, which have no fuel and no room for water and food (or waste in tanks) to actually support 3+ hours delay plus a flight to the destination (and most likely not fully serviced but just refueled at outstation for the return flight)

It used to happen regularly on flights going to ORD and SFO due to flow times being pushed back again and again.
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dtw2hyd
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RE: DOT Fines United - $1.1mil - Tarmac Delay

Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:06 pm

Its about time Airlines find a lobby group to redefine "Tarmac"
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LittleFokker
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RE: DOT Fines United - $1.1mil - Tarmac Delay

Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:09 pm

Quoting kalvado (Reply 50):
This is not how laws work.

So by that logic, that must mean cops pull over every single car that goes over the speed limit, as opposed to just the ones they catch, correct? I don't disagree that airlines that mistreat their passengers should be subjected to punishment, but WX are such dynamic and unique situations that it's hard to say that an airline is 100% wrong and evil everytime they are away from a gate and not in the air for more than 3 hours. There needs to be wriggle room for situational discretion.
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CALTECH
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RE: DOT Fines United - $1.1mil - Tarmac Delay

Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:27 pm

Quoting ca2ohHP (Reply 53):
Good grief UA. If anything, the pax should get all of the $1.1mil divided up.

Wow, what's next ? "Oh, my flight ran into turbulence, and I should be compensated." Does one expect to be compensated by the Federal government when traffic jams result on Interstate Freeways ? Or fog rolls on the freeways slowing everything down. Or by the state highway departments when the roads aren't plowed ? Maybe the hospitals should compensate patients who wait for hours for a doctor to see them. Feel good legislation.

Laws have consequences, in days past, the DOT/FAA decided not to count maintenance delays in reporting delays to keep aircraft safe. Northwest used this and called just about every delay a maintenance delay and shot up to the top in on time statistics for quite some time. Southwest also did not use ACARS for flight reporting, they too were at the top for quite some time.

[Edited 2013-10-26 11:30:43]
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airportugal310
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RE: DOT Fines United - $1.1mil - Tarmac Delay

Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:41 pm

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 57):

Well said, IMHO

Also did not know about those little tidbits. Interesting...
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DTWPurserBoy
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RE: DOT Fines United - $1.1mil - Tarmac Delay

Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:49 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 7):
And that is what happens when you schedule so tight that you leave absolutely no room for error. It isn't the passengers' problem. That is the problem of the airlines and that is why they have fines in place fortunately. When you allow yourself no room for error you create messes like this.

Tell this to the city fathers in ORD and other cities that refuse to float bond issues or to use their right to utilize eminent domain to acquire land for new airports and new terminals. The blame game can domino quickly. Everyone can share a chunk of the problem.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 55):
Its about time Airlines find a lobby group to redefine "Tarmac"

They have one--it is called the Air Transport Association, based in DC (where else?)
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Cubsrule
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RE: DOT Fines United - $1.1mil - Tarmac Delay

Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:43 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 59):
Tell this to the city fathers in ORD and other cities that refuse to float bond issues or to use their right to utilize eminent domain to acquire land for new airports and new terminals.

ORD has taken plenty of land by eminent domain for the new runways, and land acquisition for Peotone is underway. Try again.
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rcair1
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RE: DOT Fines United - $1.1mil - Tarmac Delay

Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:44 pm

Quoting copter808 (Reply 29):
Exactly! Yet we still fine the airlines for excessive delays!

Who pays the fines. Customers.
Who gets the money. Government.
Who gets justice? Nobody.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 52):
But touching the outside skin, that is deadly.

Not for a passenger on the a/c. Only for somebody standing on the ground or air bridge when the a/c gets hit.
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ca2ohHP
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RE: DOT Fines United - $1.1mil - Tarmac Delay

Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:48 pm

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 57):
Quoting ca2ohHP (Reply 53):
Good grief UA. If anything, the pax should get all of the $1.1mil divided up.

Wow, what's next ? "Oh, my flight ran into turbulence, and I should be compensated." Does one expect to be compensated by the Federal government when traffic jams result on Interstate Freeways ? Or fog rolls on the freeways slowing everything down. Or by the state highway departments when the roads aren't plowed ? Maybe the hospitals should compensate patients who wait for hours for a doctor to see them. Feel good legislation.

You totally missed my point. The gov't didn't misconnect, pay for a hotel or any other variables the passengers paid. Why should the gov't be compensated at all? Regardless if I agree to the rule or not, UA violated it and this certainly isn't the first time severe WX rolled through ORD.

The fact remains that UA failed to proactively invest in any type of ground radar, apparently.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: DOT Fines United - $1.1mil - Tarmac Delay

Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:50 pm

Quoting ca2ohHP (Reply 62):
The fact remains that UA failed to proactively invest in any type of ground radar, apparently.

UA and AA face the same weather and airfield situation at ORD. The fact that UA is getting fined and AA isn't demonstrates that this is a UA-specific problem.
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jayunited
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RE: DOT Fines United - $1.1mil - Tarmac Delay

Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:17 pm

Quoting ca2ohHP (Reply 53):
Why does the gov't get the majority of the fine? And $400k for a ground monitoring system? Why doesn't UA already have that in place in a hub like ORD? Invest in a self-parking system like AA has. Good grief UA. If anything, the pax should get all of the $1.1mil divided up.

UA has mobile self parking systems at ORD and we use them so the pilot can get the plane into the gate and cut the engines which saves on fuel but what good does a self parking system do when you still need a customer service agent to move the jet bridge up to the aircraft and let's not forget they have to touch the aircraft to open the door. But lets risk the customer service agents life during a lightening storm just so you can get off a plane. The canopy on the bridge provides protection from rain, wind, snow, and a lot of other things but it does nothing to disrupt or discharge the electrical current that flows around the skin of an aircraft if it gets struck by lightening. UA has the mobile system but after having a MX employee and a Gate Gourmet (back then they were known as Dobbs) get struck by lightening UA now days is not taking any chances so if you can't get off an aircraft due to lightening on the fields which is the only time UA closes the ramp I can honestly tell you that that even if UA does use the mobile self parking system there is not a single employee willing to risk their life just so you can get off the plane.

What took place is not the norm at UA and yes ops screwed up and misjudged the size, intensity and speed of this storm and as a result almost 1,000 passengers were stuck on aircraft for more than 3 hours. However I do agree that passenger s should be compensated when they are trapped on planes for more than 3 hours at the very least they should have the fare for the effect flight refunded in full.
 
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CALTECH
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RE: DOT Fines United - $1.1mil - Tarmac Delay

Sun Oct 27, 2013 1:16 am

Quoting ca2ohHP (Reply 62):
You totally missed my point. The gov't didn't misconnect, pay for a hotel or any other variables the passengers paid. Why should the gov't be compensated at all? Regardless if I agree to the rule or not, UA violated it and this certainly isn't the first time severe WX rolled through ORD.

And you totally missed the point made. The government gets the fines, no passenger will be compensated with that fine. It was feel good legislation that does nothing for the passenger other than getting their flights cancelled early.

Quoting ca2ohHP (Reply 62):
The fact remains that UA failed to proactively invest in any type of ground radar, apparently.

Huh? Do you mean aircraft tracking radar, or weather radar ? O'Hare has FAA operated ground monitoring aircraft movement radar, why would United need that ? As far as weather radar, there are many internet sites that have real time weather data along with lightning indicators that are monitored.


Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 63):
UA and AA face the same weather and airfield situation at ORD. The fact that UA is getting fined and AA isn't demonstrates that this is a UA-specific problem.

UA-specific, huh ? Please.

http://www.travelerstoday.com/articl...-200-000-lengthy-tarmac-delays.htm

American Eagle Airlines Fined $200,000 For Lengthy Tarmac Delays

"In addition to the fine, American Airlines, which is affiliated with American Eagle Airlines, was ordered by the DOT to cease and desist from any more tarmac rule violations."

"While the passengers are the ones that had to deal with the delays, they won't benefit from the $200,000 fine. The money will go to the US Treasury. "

"This isn't the first time American Eagle Airlines was hit with a fine for lengthy delays. In fact, they had to pay even more in 2011 due to long delays at Chicago O'Hare International Airport. The DOT fined the airline $900,000."
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cmf
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RE: DOT Fines United - $1.1mil - Tarmac Delay

Sun Oct 27, 2013 3:18 am

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 52):
Change business how exactly

The airlines know the parameters. How they comply is up to them based on their situation and risk tolerance.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
PHX787
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RE: DOT Fines United - $1.1mil - Tarmac Delay

Sun Oct 27, 2013 12:30 pm

Good thing they're being fined now and hopefully they don't do this again, especially when I fly through there during Christmas.
But given the frequency of these threads I'm guessing that it's a tossup.
Choosing NH to connect through on a UA Domestic flight at ORD over the Christmas Holiday may be the worst or best idea I've ever had....but $1000 round trip is something you don't see every day.
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CALTECH
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RE: DOT Fines United - $1.1mil - Tarmac Delay

Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:15 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 66):
The airlines know the parameters. How they comply is up to them based on their situation and risk tolerance.

Allright, so now the airlines should wait until there are sunny skies at the departure and arrival cities, and no weather enroute to make sure no passenger is inconvinienced. Only way to be sure what with weather forecasting the way it is. Good luck with those parameters as a passenger.
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DTWPurserBoy
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RE: DOT Fines United - $1.1mil - Tarmac Delay

Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:35 pm

The "clear the ramp" during electrical storms rule came into being after several airlines lost employees due to lightening strikes. I saw this happen at JFK a long time ago. The safety of employees and passengers comes first, passenger inconvenience second.

So if you are on a flight, say out of LGA on a weekend when one of the two runways is closed for maintenance and the one remaining runway is being used for takeoff and landing, chances are you are going to get stuck in a queue of about 30 aircraft. This happened to me just yesterday--we were in line for over 45 minutes before taking off. If a storm hit there would have been nowhere to go--you would just have to wait it out.

But then my personal sense of the absurd comes into play when passengers start asking "When is it going to stop raining?" Still people want to know when _______(name any airline) is going to make the snow stop, have the ramp cleared or have thunderstorms out of the way. Our meteorology department is good and now we "pre-cancel" flights when we know a major snow event is coming to keep aircraft and crews in place but thunderstorms are a great unknown. They tend to pop up with little notice during hot, humid days. It is a fine balancing act dealing with 700+ aircraft and around 30,000 flight attendants and pilots at just my airline which back in the day was all done manually. Thank goodness it is now automated and assures as rapid a restart as is possible
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ca2ohHP
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RE: DOT Fines United - $1.1mil - Tarmac Delay

Sun Oct 27, 2013 8:45 pm

Quoting jayunited (Reply 64):
UA has mobile self parking systems at ORD and we use them so the pilot can get the plane into the gate and cut the engines which saves on fuel but what good does a self parking system do when you still need a customer service agent to move the jet bridge up to the aircraft and let's not forget they have to touch the aircraft to open the door. But lets risk the customer service agents life during a lightening storm just so you can get off a plane.

I didn't realize UA doesn't permit jetbridge operations during thunderstorms.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 65):
Quoting ca2ohHP (Reply 62):
The fact remains that UA failed to proactively invest in any type of ground radar, apparently.

Huh? Do you mean aircraft tracking radar, or weather radar ? O'Hare has FAA operated ground monitoring aircraft movement radar, why would United need that ? As far as weather radar, there are many internet sites that have real time weather data along with lightning indicators that are monitored.

Most major carriers have advanced ground radar in their hubs, specifically in their ramp operation towers - in addition to what the FAA uses. Delta has had theirs in place in DTW (I don't recall if it's Passeur or what) since 2007.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 65):
Quoting ca2ohHP (Reply 62):
You totally missed my point. The gov't didn't misconnect, pay for a hotel or any other variables the passengers paid. Why should the gov't be compensated at all? Regardless if I agree to the rule or not, UA violated it and this certainly isn't the first time severe WX rolled through ORD.

And you totally missed the point made. The government gets the fines, no passenger will be compensated with that fine. It was feel good legislation that does nothing for the passenger other than getting their flights cancelled early.

Of the $1.1mil, the DOT gets $475k, affected pax get $185k, UA investing in ground radar $440k.

DOT hits United with record fine for long tarmac delays
 
Cubsrule
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RE: DOT Fines United - $1.1mil - Tarmac Delay

Sun Oct 27, 2013 9:04 pm

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 65):
UA-specific, huh ? Please.

I think AA/MQ were ahead for a couple of years, but note my use of the present tense. When was AA's last fine for ORD tramac delays?
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jetblastdubai
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RE: DOT Fines United - $1.1mil - Tarmac Delay

Sun Oct 27, 2013 9:04 pm

Quoting ca2ohHP (Reply 70):
UA investing in ground radar $440k.

United, or anyone else, could probably get a feed from the tower ASDE-X for the price of a co-ax cable if they don't already have it. Not sure if the information transmitted by the system is 'off limits' to users but no sense in spending 440K for something that's already there. It'd be nice if the users had the same information that the controllers were using...assuming that the users don't start second-guessing ATC and cause some friction.

If I'm not mistaken, I thought the airlines already has an ASD (aircraft situation display) somewhere on the property. It's a satellite-based system that can track any flight that transited US airspace to anywhere on the planet. We could track a US departure on downwind at LHR or NRT with this system....pretty cool technology.
 
cmf
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RE: DOT Fines United - $1.1mil - Tarmac Delay

Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:07 pm

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 68):
Allright, so now the airlines should wait until there are sunny skies at the departure and arrival cities, and no weather enroute to make sure no passenger is inconvinienced. Only way to be sure what with weather forecasting the way it is. Good luck with those parameters as a passenger.

Fortunately airlines are better than that.
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jayunited
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RE: DOT Fines United - $1.1mil - Tarmac Delay

Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:43 pm

Quoting ca2ohHP (Reply 70):
I didn't realize UA doesn't permit jetbridge operations during thunderstorms.

And I didn't realize that you have difficultly reading and/or comprehending words. because I did not say UA closes the ramp during a thunder storm I said UA closes the ramp during a lightening storm which is what this storm was. The ramp was close at least 4 times during the span of about 3.5 hours. So to help you out I will copy and paste my post again perhaps if you read it a second time you will understand what I wrote. Thunderstorms do not impede UA's ramp operation but when those thunderstorms include lightening they become something else and UA takes all precaution to ensure the safety of their employees and their customers.


Quoting ca2ohHP (Reply 70):
Quoting jayunited (Reply 64):
UA has mobile self parking systems at ORD and we use them so the pilot can get the plane into the gate and cut the engines which saves on fuel but what good does a self parking system do when you still need a customer service agent to move the jet bridge up to the aircraft and let's not forget they have to touch the aircraft to open the door. But lets risk the customer service agents life during a lightening storm just so you can get off a plane.
 
cmf
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RE: DOT Fines United - $1.1mil - Tarmac Delay

Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:10 pm

Quoting jayunited (Reply 74):
I did not say UA closes the ramp during a thunder storm I said UA closes the ramp during a lightening storm

Can it be a thunderstorm without lightning?
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
copter808
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RE: DOT Fines United - $1.1mil - Tarmac Delay

Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:22 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 75):
Can it be a thunderstorm without lightning?

I suspect what he's referring to is air-to-ground lightning, but you're correct. Pretty difficult to have thunder with no lightning!
 
ca2ohHP
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RE: DOT Fines United - $1.1mil - Tarmac Delay

Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:07 am

Quoting jayunited (Reply 74):
Quoting ca2ohHP (Reply 70):
I didn't realize UA doesn't permit jetbridge operations during thunderstorms.

And I didn't realize that you have difficultly reading and/or comprehending words. because I did not say UA closes the ramp during a thunder storm I said UA closes the ramp during a lightening storm which is what this storm was. The ramp was close at least 4 times during the span of about 3.5 hours. So to help you out I will copy and paste my post again perhaps if you read it a second time you will understand what I wrote. Thunderstorms do not impede UA's ramp operation but when those thunderstorms include lightening they become something else and UA takes all precaution to ensure the safety of their employees and their customers.

What's with the attitude? There's a 3 hour rule, I highly doubt the cell sat over the field for 3 solid hours. I certainly wasn't trying to make this personal or sarcastic, but apparently it's an emotional subject to you.

I'm not asking any gate agent to risk their life and you don't even know if that was actually the case. At some point, somebody didn't make the call to bring the aircraft back to the gates and they should have. Other airlines managed the events that same day with different results. Obviously the DOT investigated (I know for a fact they thoroughly investigate these as I've been involved in them in the past) the delays and found UA dropped the ball.

[Edited 2013-10-28 18:13:54]

[Edited 2013-10-28 18:16:12]
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: DOT Fines United - $1.1mil - Tarmac Delay

Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:23 am

Quoting ca2ohHP (Reply 77):
I highly doubt the cell sat over the field for 3 solid hours

This would suggest otherwise:

Quoting jayunited (Reply 74):
The ramp was close at least 4 times during the span of about 3.5 hours

Similarly,

Quoting ca2ohHP (Reply 77):
somebody didn't make the call to bring the aircraft back to the gates and they should have

If the ramp was closed, then the passengers couldn't disembark even if UA could have got the aircraft back onto stand.

The only part of your post that makes sense is:

Quoting ca2ohHP (Reply 77):
Other airlines managed the events that same day with different results

Does anyone know what AA were doing that day? Did they proactively cancel flights while UA let them depart, or what?
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
ca2ohHP
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RE: DOT Fines United - $1.1mil - Tarmac Delay

Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:01 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 78):
Quoting ca2ohHP (Reply 77):
I highly doubt the cell sat over the field for 3 solid hours

This would suggest otherwise:

Quoting jayunited (Reply 74):
The ramp was close at least 4 times during the span of about 3.5 hours

Similarly,

Quoting ca2ohHP (Reply 77):
somebody didn't make the call to bring the aircraft back to the gates and they should have

If the ramp was closed, then the passengers couldn't disembark even if UA could have got the aircraft back onto stand.

The only part of your post that makes sense is:

Quoting ca2ohHP (Reply 77):
Other airlines managed the events that same day with different results

Does anyone know what AA were doing that day? Did they proactively cancel flights while UA let them depart, or what?

The ramp being closed 4 times in 3.5 hours could mean anything. Maybe it was closed 10 minutes, 4 times. Maybe it was closed for 45 minutes, 20 minutes, 90 minutes, etc... I've personally never witnessed a sustained ramp closure of 3.5 hours (and that includes my time working in ORD for United). It's all hypothetical. I have been personally involved in long onboard delay investigations by the DOT, and in my experience, they have been extremely fair if there was circumstances completely beyond the carrier's control.
 
jayunited
Posts: 3115
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

RE: DOT Fines United - $1.1mil - Tarmac Delay

Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:15 pm

[quote=ca2ohHP,reply=79]The ramp being closed 4 times in 3.5 hours could mean anything. Maybe it was closed 10 minutes, 4 times. Maybe it was closed for 45 minutes, 20 minutes, 90 minutes, etc... I've personally never witnessed a sustained ramp closure of 3.5 hours (and that includes my time working in ORD for United). It's all hypothetical. I have been personally involved in long onboard delay investigations by the DOT, and in my experience, they have been extremely fair if there was circumstances completely beyond the carrier's control.[/quote

The ramp is never closed for only 10 minutes and no one said it was a sustained closure of 3.5 hours. The ramp was close a minimum of 4 time over a 3.5 time span. And if you had worked of UA at ORD you would be very familiar with this system but your post seems to suggest that you don't have a full understanding of how they system works so let me explain how this works UA has a system in the station control center they installed as a result of 2 employees being struck by lightening some years ago. The system automatically issues a clear the ramp order via yellow caution lights positioned on top of T1 and 2 all UA hangars and UA's cargo building when it detects lightening hitting the ground anywhere within 15 miles of perimeter of ORD.In fact new hires are trained if they ever see the yellow beacon lights flashing get in side right away. Along with the flashing yellow lights a warning is sent out over the radio to all employee to clear the ramp due to lightening. This is followed by supervisors driving around in in vans making sure that all employees know that they are to go directly inside now. That clear the ramp order remains in place for 15 minutes so if there is not another lightening strike for the next 14 minutes then on the 15 minute mark another strike hits the the ground even if its not on the airfield but it occurs within the 15 miles radius of ORD's perimeter then the clock automatically rests itself for another 15 minute. There must be 15 consecutive minutes of no lightening actually hitting the ground in order for UA to reopen the ramp. So when looking at how big this storm was it becomes clear why in the span of 3.5 hours UA had to clear the ramp at least 4 times. I don't know what AA procedures are during lightening they could have different procedures than UA, I know that most international carriers at T5 do not let their contract employees go inside until the Chicago Department of Aviation (CDA) shows up and tells them to go inside for their own safety. By the time the CDA shows up lightening has struck the ground within a 1 mile radius of ORD's perimeter. So I believe at ORD UA has the strictest clear the ramp rules in place when lightening is present and I can't blame them 2 employes is 2 to many and UA is determined not to let this happen a 3rd time. I understand it sucks being stuck on a plane for more than 3 hours and ops really did screw up by boarding all those planes hoping they would be in the air before the storm hit. Those planes never did make it into the air and it was all down hill from there.
 
sacampb
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:42 pm

RE: DOT Fines United - $1.1mil - Tarmac Delay

Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:34 am

Quoting ckfred (Reply 13):
One thing that AA has done is the parking system that doesnt require ground crew. The board on the tells the pilot if he is on his lead-in line, as well as to slow down for the stopping point.

Thus, if there is lightning in the area, closing the ramp, aircraft can still park, and the jet bridge can be moved into place.

I know AA has it at ORD and DFW.

They can park but they can't extend the jetbridge until chocks are in place which require ground crew.

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