A340-500 For Aerolineas Argentinas

KarelXWB · Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:32 pm

Here it is: all white ex-SQ 9V-SGA descending into LDE:

Singapore Airlines Airbus A340-541 cn 492 9V-SGA by Clément Alloing - AirTeamImages, on Flickr

AR326 · Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:45 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 98):
h that flight. I´m not sure if it was to CPT or JNB though.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 98):
They operated it in the 80s and it was very successful. A lot of my relatives visited South Africa back then with that flight. I´m not sure if it was to CPT or JNB though.

Yes it was very fashionable at one point, in the 80s, to go on holiday to South Africa. It was mainly during the so called "sweet money" (plata dulce) years when the Argentine currency was overvalued and it was cheaper to travel halfway across the globe than travel domestically. I don't have the exact dates but AR flew to CPT for a while and then switched to JNB, or vice versa. But ay one time or another both airports were served.

Polot · Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:48 pm

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 97):

Not true!

ETOPS regulations applies only for twins

Maybe you're making mistake yourself with LROPS, but that's another story

You are both right, but it depends on your point of view. The FAA does not use the term LROPS, rather it decided to redefine ETOPS as "extended operations" from "extended twin engine operations". But I don't think that has been universally adopted so you still frequently see the term LROPS.

AngMoh · Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:31 pm

I am still wondering what kind of cycles and hours these frames have. I expect the number of cycles to be very low while the number of hours should also be at the low side.

Anyone have this info?

EddieDude · Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:38 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 78):
Performance wise no. But capacity wise, who knows?

But the A332 is not that much bigger than the A345, is it?

Quoting AM777LR (Reply 90):
Would EZE-JNB ever work?

As mentioned, it is served by SA. Let's not forget either how MH recently cancelled their EZE-CPT-KUL flight.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 92):
EZE-NRT How viable?

Via MEX on AM.

Viscount724 · Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:42 pm

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 97):
ETOPS regulations applies only for twins

Sorry, that's not correct. At least as far as the U.S. FAA is concerned, ETOPS was extended to 3 and 4-engine aircraft under certain conditions in 2007. That's when the reference to "Twin" in the ETOPS definition was deleted. The FAA now defines ETOPS as "Extended Operations".

Viscount724 · Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:46 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 98):
Quoting AM777LR (Reply 90):
Would EZE-JNB ever work?

They operated it in the 80s and it was very successful. A lot of my relatives visited South Africa back then with that flight. I´m not sure if it was to CPT or JNB though.

It was very unprofitable for MH when they operated it for several years as part of their KUL-JNB-CPT-EZE route. They dropped the entire route a few years ago. I think it was mainly operated because the Malaysian president at the time had a ranch in Argentina.

[Edited 2013-10-29 15:54:36]

LH707330 · Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:53 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 104):
But the A332 is not that much bigger than the A345, is it?

The A345 is bigger, by a good 9 meters. At brochure spec, this equates to an extra 60 passengers.

SKY1 · Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:15 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 105):
Sorry, that's not correct. At least as far as the U.S. FAA is concerned, ETOPS was extended to 3 and 4-engine aircraft under certain conditions in 2007

What does the FAA have to do with a Singaporean operator which back their aircraft to their European manufacturer in order to send it for an Argentinian airline?

No sure even if any restriction is going to apply on this case, if any it should be under argentinian regulations as the carrier is from Argentina.

There are not any kind of restrictions (and please correct me if I'm wrong) so far in the 4-engine QF/LA/AR operations on the South Pacific

EddieDude · Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:16 pm

Thanks a lot for the clarification LH707330. I was under the wrong impression.

MD11junkie · Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:44 pm

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 108):
No sure even if any restriction is going to apply on this case, if any it should be under argentinian regulations as the carrier is from Argentina.

Since 1997 Argentina automatically mirrors any FAA policy regarding airworthiness or operations.

Saludos,

LVICS · Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:36 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 86):
1998, with AA onboard management, they bought 4 A340-200.

Hmmmmmm... I think they were talking about brand new aircrafts:

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 57):
When was the last time AR purchased new, long-haul wide-bodies aircraft? Does someone remember?

Those A 342 were not brand new. Before joining AR's fleet they flew with Cathay and Philippine.

AM777LR · Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:31 am

Just came across these:
http://www.ch-aviation.ch/portal/new...rst-ex-singapore-airlines-a340-500

http://envivodesdescl.blogspot.com/2...olineas-argentinas-prepara-la.html (Spanish)

Gemuser · Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:03 am

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 108):
There are not any kind of restrictions (and please correct me if I'm wrong) so far in the 4-engine QF/LA/AR operations on the South Pacific

Yes there are. In Australia/New Zealand its called EDTO [Extended Diversion Time Operations] and it applies to all aircraft including quads that EIS from 2007 and existing quads from 2017 [or 2015 according to some sources, but 2017 sounds more likely to me].

This whole questions turns on jurisdiction, its what the national aviation authority will/will not accept. While a personal opinion only, I do not believe that Australia's CASA will accept any ETOPS/EDTO twin operations >180 into Australian territory by ANY airline, even NZ.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 110):
Since 1997 Argentina automatically mirrors any FAA policy regarding airworthiness or operations.

I would be VERY surprised if the Argentina authorities can not make exceptions and do something else in specific cases if they want to.

Gemuser

AR385 · Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:12 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 104):
But the A332 is not that much bigger than the A345, is it?

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 107):
The A345 is bigger, by a good 9 meters. At brochure spec, this equates to an extra 60 passengers.

Yes EddieDude. At some point those 60 extra seats, albeit low yield, may make a difference for AR. Thousands of Argentines fly to CUN every year, let alone those who connect at EZE from Bolivia, Uruguay, Paraguay, etc. AR made a good choice. They got a an aircraft at a ridiculously low price, and that price allows them to use it in their long range routes like EZE-MAD, EZE-FCO, EZE-BCN, EZE-SYD and at the same time, routes where they need the extra capacity, like EZE-CUN or EZE-MIA.

At the same time it may be just the necessary aircraft they need to reopen EZE-CDG, EZE-FRA, EZE-AKL and EZE-LHR. Routes that were all flown in the past.

leonardoq · Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:50 am

Good news for whoever travels the syd-eze route...a343 is a bit outdated.
Just hope they change the time of the flight (morning departure from syd - evening arrival at eze), as it gets a bit hard to hop in connecting flights to brazil at the evening from buenos aires.

AR326 · Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:16 pm

Quoting leonardoq (Reply 115):
Just hope they change the time of the flight (morning departure from syd - evening arrival at eze), as it gets a bit hard to hop in connecting flights to brazil at the evening from buenos aires.

The incoming from SYD easily connects to flights to Brazil. There are now late evening departures to Sao Paulo, Rio, Belo Horizonte, and Brasilia from EZE.

MD11junkie · Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:00 pm

Quoting LVICS (Reply 111):

Those A 342 were not brand new. Before joining AR's fleet they flew with Cathay and Philippine.

Whoops! Did not read 'new' in that. Sorry! Last purchase then was then made in 1975~ for 3 Boeing 747-200 to Boeing. The first of the 3 was received in 1976.

Quoting gemuser (Reply 113):
I would be VERY surprised if the Argentina authorities can not make exceptions and do something else in specific cases if they want to.

You shouldn't. They can, but they usually won't.

Quoting leonardoq (Reply 115):
Just hope they change the time of the flight (morning departure from syd - evening arrival at eze), as it gets a bit hard to hop in connecting flights to brazil at the evening from buenos aires.

The problem there is matching the timetables of North American Routes - that fit perfectly into the current schedule. There's a flight leaving to Brazil at 10pm. That same flight arrives back at 5am - making the connecting flight for the outbound sectors.

Saludos,

PHX787 · Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:57 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 95):
Out of range but HNL is right under the GC route

I wonderrrr is 5th freedom allowed at HNL?

AR385 · Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:20 pm

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 117):
Whoops! Did not read 'new' in that. Sorry! Last purchase then was then made in 1975~ for 3 Boeing 747-200 to Boeing. The first of the 3 was received in 1976.

You could say the SP was new. It was not done to AR´s specs but was never operated by Braniff.

KarelXWB · Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:33 pm

Quoting zkojq (Reply 70):
Airbus acquired SQ's A340-500s as part of their latest A350 order.

Quoting DeltaB717 (Reply 79):
Official SQ press release:

Quoting DeltaB717 (Reply 79):
Confirms the A345 were acquired by Airbus as part of the A350/A380 purchase.

Besides, during an earlier interview, Airbus themselves said they will buy the aircraft back from SQ. I then wondered what they would do with those birds but apparently it wasn't that hard to find a new customer.

BTW these 5 aircraft are now listed on the Airbus website:
http://www.airbus.com/company/market/asset/aircraft-available/

n471wn · Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:22 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 50):
heard that A6-ERF had been withdrawn.However, I did not realise that it had already been scrapped.

It has not been scrapped but withdrawn and returned to Airbus where it is undergoing maintenance

bennett123 · Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:46 pm

Sorry, I misunderstood reply 41.

SKY1 · Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:21 pm

Quoting gemuser (Reply 113):
Yes there are. In Australia/New Zealand its called EDTO [Extended Diversion Time Operations] and it applies to all aircraft including quads that EIS from 2007 and existing quads from 2017 [or 2015 according to some sources, but 2017 sounds more likely to me]

What type of restriction was applied for the Qantas' B744 services to EZE? (--if any--)

May you tell me how that EDTO regulation concerns quads and what does it consist of exactly?

Gemuser · Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:35 pm

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 123):
May you tell me how that EDTO regulation concerns quads and what does it consist of exactly?

Search the CASA site: www.casa.gov.au for EDTO/Extended Diversion Time Operations. I don't have the url's handy right now. Be prepared for a mind numbing experience!

Gemuser

SKY1 · Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:00 pm

Quoting gemuser (Reply 124):
Search the CASA site: www.casa.gov.au for EDTO/Extended Diversion Time Operations

Taken on casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:pwa::pc=PC_100804

Quote:
Casa is also seeking to harmonise EDTO standards for three (3) and four (4) engined aeroplanes with best international practice. Specifically, in the case of such aeroplanes, consider the development of maintenance programs, and clarify paragraph 5 of Table A to ensure the new standards apply only to aeroplanes manufactured on or after 1 July 2015

...so, where's the restriction right now for quads? I don't have time right now, but I'll try to search more deeply later. Thanks for providing the link, anyhow!

zotan · Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:13 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 120):
Besides, during an earlier interview, Airbus themselves said they will buy the aircraft back from SQ. I then wondered what they would do with those birds but apparently it wasn't that hard to find a new customer.

BTW these 5 aircraft are now listed on the Airbus website:
http://www.airbus.com/company/market/asset/aircraft-available/

If these aircraft were in fact going to AR, Airbus would not list them on their website.

I believe this is a false report. An Argentine blog reported about this a few months ago (with no support) and my guess is another news source picked it up and ran with it, not bothering to check the facts.

aerorobnz · Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:41 pm

Quoting na (Thread starter):
LHs oldest A340-300 is going to scrapped.

I observed a freshly landed LH A340-300 D-AIGB (ie: in one piece) at the terminal in TUP today. They scrap them pretty quickin TUP, the Pokemon 744 that arrived not long ago is well underway towards dismantling..

AM777LR · Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:48 pm

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 123):
What type of restriction was applied for the Qantas' B744 services to EZE?

I don't think there was any restrictions. There aren't any (That I know of) on the SYD-SCL route. QANTAS should look into LIM.

Gemuser · Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:30 am

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 125):
.so, where's the restriction right now for quads?

Quoting AM777LR (Reply 128):
I don't think there was any restrictions

As I said in Reply 113, they come into effect in 2017. It's all in there somewhere and in multiple documents. I fully expect that QF, AR & LA will be able to get concessions to keep B744 & A340s & maybe A380 on the southern runs with acceptable mods/standards to these aircraft types. New designs? Well I don't expect to be here when the next quad after A380 EIS.

Gemuser

AM777LR · Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:14 am

Quoting gemuser (Reply 129):

Oh ok, missed that. I think once the 744s are gone from QFs fleet, they will switch SCL to an A380 route. DFW will most likely get switched when Airbus rolls out an extended range A380.

leonardoq · Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:56 am

Quoting AR326 (Reply 116):
The incoming from SYD easily connects to flights to Brazil. There are now late evening departures to Sao Paulo, Rio, Belo Horizonte, and Brasilia from EZE.

To those four cities is easy, indeed. POA is also an important hub in the south of brazil that IMO is forgotten. Passengers coming from syd particularly have to stay overnight in BUE and wait until next midday for a departure from AEP.

Pellegrine · Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:58 am

What a beautiful a/c that will be, and what good value!!

lightsaber · Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:15 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 39):
Another 4 aircraft are scheduled to join the fleet.

Thank you. That makes my prior comments 'overcome by events.'

And welcome to my RU list. I should have had you on it earlier.

Quoting AM777LR (Reply 130):
DFW will most likely get switched when Airbus rolls out an extended range A380.

You mean like the ones now being delivered to BA and EK?

(1st delivery BA.) Its only a little fuel burn savings and a little more MTOW, but it is enough to replace the 744ER with better economics.

Quoting gemuser (Reply 129):
Well I don't expect to be here when the next quad after A380 EIS.

BWBs have to be triples or quads. With the lack of a vertical rudder, they do not handle single engine out at takeoff as a twin (too much moment arm). So you just might see a BWB quad.

Life spans are longer now.

Lightsaber

Gemuser · Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:56 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 133):
BWBs have to be triples or quads. With the lack of a vertical rudder, they do not handle single engine out at takeoff as a twin (too much moment arm). So you just might see a BWB quad.

Life spans are longer now.

Given family history I doubt I'll make it passed 2035 - 40, so I some how doubt it

Gemuser

Francoflier · Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:28 am

Quoting zkojq (Reply 70):
Airbus acquired SQ's A340-500s as part of their latest A350 order. Otherwise I agree with what you wrote.

Thanks. I stand corrected.

I guess these were offered cheaper than the brand new ones Kingfisher never got.

skipness1E · Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:51 pm

Quoting n471wn (Reply 121):
It has not been scrapped but withdrawn and returned to Airbus where it is undergoing maintenance

Emirates reported it as being ferried to Ras Al Khaimah International Airport for parting out.

A388 · Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:07 pm

Those AR A345's will be the most beautiful ones with the new AR livery and I'm sad I will not see these birds ever looking at where I live. I still find that AR should make the sun on the new tail logo more prominent as you barely see it now.

Cheers,

A388

n471wn · Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:25 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 136):
Emirates reported it as being ferried to Ras Al Khaimah International Airport for parting out.

Ok as I looked on ATDB.org for my information but the operator should know

KarelXWB · Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:19 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 100):
Here it is: all white ex-SQ 9V-SGA descending into LDE:

And the landing pictures:

Source http://www.flickr.com/photos/f-alex_alexis_charroud/

AM777LR · Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:52 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 139):

Hopefully next time we see her, she will be in AR's livery!

MD11junkie · Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:14 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 139):

That's a looker!

aircanadaa330 · Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:18 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 139):

that is one good looking aircraft. I love the AR livery, so it will look amazing!!

jfk777 · Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:28 pm

Quoting AirCanadaA330 (Reply 142):
that is one good looking aircraft. I love the AR livery, so it will look amazing!!

WE all agree the plane is going to look great but why should we believe this airplane is going to solve AR's problems when it has been flown by some of the world most profitable airlines which have found it to be "unprofitable". Thai couldn't make it work, Singapore couldn't and neither could Emirates. AR is flying a plane designed for 15 hour flights on mostly 8, 9 and 11 hour flights with the exception of their Sydney flight.

aircanadaa330 · Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:39 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 143):
but why should we believe this airplane is going to solve AR's problems when it has been flown by some of the world most profitable airlines which have found it to be "unprofitable".

Im sure most of us dont think that it will solve any of ARs problems. It is really just eye candy. I have no idea what will solve ARs problems, AR most likely has no idea either.

dc9northwest · Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:55 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 143):
WE all agree the plane is going to look great but why should we believe this airplane is going to solve AR's problems when it has been flown by some of the world most profitable airlines which have found it to be "unprofitable". Thai couldn't make it work, Singapore couldn't and neither could Emirates. AR is flying a plane designed for 15 hour flights on mostly 8, 9 and 11 hour flights with the exception of their Sydney flight.

Who cares? The Argie gov't will keep them in business anyway.

I'm just glad to see the A345 getting new airlines interested.

AM777LR · Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:09 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 143):
but why should we believe this airplane is going to solve AR's problems when it has been flown by some of the world most profitable airlines which have found it to be "unprofitable". Thai couldn't make it work, Singapore couldn't and neither could Emirates.

Well, because they already fly A340s so this plane had better fuel consumption per seat compared to an A342 or A343. ULH route never see to work out well, SIN-LAX/EWR was destined for failure.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 145):
Who cares? The Argie gov't will keep them in business anyway.

And that could be why Argentina has recently reported a deficit for the first time in 17 years
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...onomy-budget-idUSL1N0BXLET20130306

airbazar · Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:56 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 143):
WE all agree the plane is going to look great but why should we believe this airplane is going to solve AR's problems when it has been flown by some of the world most profitable airlines which have found it to be "unprofitable". Thai couldn't make it work, Singapore couldn't and neither could Emirates. AR is flying a plane designed for 15 hour flights on mostly 8, 9 and 11 hour flights with the exception of their Sydney flight.

Still longer than anything EK uses them for. Only SQ was flying ULH routes with it for any consistent amount of time. But I don't think anyone is saying it will solve AR's problems. The argument is that AR should lose less money with this plane as opposed to the A342. Also, you are comparing apples and oranges. Those airlines acquired the A345 at a much greater cost than AR is getting these. At the end of the day, AR's problems may have absolutely nothing to do with what kind of plane they fly, which more often than not is the case. Look at AF vs. LH. One operates predominantly fuel efficient twin engine long haul aircraft and is incredibly unprofitable while the other operates long haul quads and is incredibly profitable.

TK739ER · Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:55 am

If these rumors are true, I don't really care where AR will fly these birds or if they are gonna make money or loose money etc etc. As an enthusiast all I care about is, these birds find a home and not going to scrapper at a very young age and we have a chance to fly or spot these beautiful majestic birds someday somewhere. A345 IMO, best looking A/C out there with B757, a very well proportioned quad is something to appreciate these days.
Never flown A345, logged quite a few flights with LH's A346s between DEN-FRA, now if AR gets these birds probably a EZE-SYD itinerary would show on the horizon, spending a week with Aussie friends would be an awesome break for this poor soul.

And Karel, million thanks for the pictures, what an awesome looking bird even with the white tail.

zkojq · Sat Nov 02, 2013 5:19 am

9V-SGC has been withdrawn from service.
9V-SGA's last service was from EWR on the 23rd of September. It arrived in LDE 35 days later.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 85):
Pity that their A340-200's will probably be chopped.

Yup.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 86):
Interestingly enough, Judge Griessa has ruled that AR Planes are not to be considered seizable assets by vulture funds - therefore there's no risk. AR operates completely separately from the Argentine State - it still a privately owned company.

Good.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 143):
Thai couldn't make it work, Singapore couldn't and neither could Emirates. AR is flying a plane designed for 15 hour flights on mostly 8, 9 and 11 hour flights with the exception of their Sydney flight.

All of these airlines paid a lot in capital/ownership costs. Now that these birds are depreciated, they should be less uneconomic.

Quoting AirCanadaA330 (Reply 144):
I have no idea what will solve ARs problems, AR most likely has no idea either.

I'm grateful to the Argentinian taxpayers whose tax dollars are keeping the skies populated with pretty airliners.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 145):
I'm just glad to see the A345 getting new airlines interested.

I hope Etihad's, Emirates' , TAM's and Thai's find good homes too.

Quoting TK739ER (Reply 148):
A345 IMO, best looking A/C out there

Agreed. Pure eyecandy. I don't think Airbus could have made it look any better, even if they had explicitly tried.

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