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Meltraveller
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PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:19 am

With PR launching its long awaited MNL - LHR flights on Monday 4 November 2013, I wondered how the bookings were going.

The timetables have changed a bit to earlier departures from 1 December 2013 (as early as 0635) ex MNL, which is too early but probably predicated on LHR slot availability.
 
GuyBetsy1
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:38 pm

Nothing in the papers in the UK advertising this. Instead, QR's joining of OW has overshadowed things a bit and their seat sales.. Unless PR comes out with much better fares to Philippines and beyond, they won't survive the competition that is out there and that they're not even in an alliance.
 
TC957
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:49 pm

Yes, it's been a fairly quiet launch in the travel press. I'll be at the World Travel Market next week for a day and shall look out if PR have a stand there to at least launch the service and their London presence to the travel trade there.
Just checked, there's plenty of availability on their first flights out of LHR on every day this coming week.
 
Cipango
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Sat Nov 02, 2013 5:12 pm

Quoting GuyBetsy1 (Reply 1):
they're not even in an alliance.

I'm sure they will be in the next 5 years. They have quite an ambition expansion plan over the next few years and I don't see this being all too viable without an alliance. Out of curiosity, what alliance would they join? My guess would be Star?

Quoting GuyBetsy1 (Reply 1):
Nothing in the papers in the UK advertising this.

Given that they announced this route so shortly before the start date I would have expected them to pull out all the stops when it came to advertising. Poor move on their part.
Let's fly! Unless it's on a CRJ 200, then I'll stay down here.
 
awthompson
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:35 pm

I kindly disagree with most of the negative posts thus far. Advertising in the UK is hardly necessary as it will be 95% Filipinos that will fill these flights. They will likely advertise well in the PI (much cheaper). We are talking here about the twelfth most populous nation on earth (the Philippines that is, not the UK!), with at least 10% (ten million) abroad at any point in time. Most go home once a year, that's big traffic!

PAL doesn't need to waste large sums for UK advertising. Among Filipinos, word spreads fast. UK Filipinos will quickly hear from their families back home. Up to 500 Filipinos currently travel between UK/Ireland and MNL daily, that will certainly support a daily flight (I haven't checked yet if the new flight is going to be daily). If the fares are reasonable, they will walk from the other airlines straight to PAL.

An alliance or connecting flights at the UK end is not at all necessary. PR have a very good connecting network to most airports in the PI, and indeed all over the far east, that's what really matters.

My wife and I travel to the PI once a year, and will be very happy to at last have a direct flight into MNL.

PAL is here to stay this time I would say!
 
awthompson
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Sat Nov 02, 2013 8:40 pm

I have just made a search on ebookers for the Jan/Feb 2014 dates LHR-MNL-LHR that I had already booked some time ago with another airline. PAL fare is £572 all in. From someone who travels regularly to the PI, this is a good return fare and cheaper than Emirates who are one of their their main competitors here, also cheaper than KAC, SIA, CPA, QTR, MAS (whom my Jan/Feb trip is with), AAR, KLM, KAL, THA, GFA, ANA and JAL for the same dates. Only QTR, RBA and CSN are coming in slightly cheaper. Most of the CSN options require overnight in CAN with China visa + other expenses in addition.
 
awthompson
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Sat Nov 02, 2013 9:11 pm

At 7515 miles (according to ebookers) will this be the longest non stop flight out of LHR?
I cannot think of anything else longer. LHR to MNL is showing 14hrs 30mins and MNL to LHR is showing 15hrs 25mins.
I cannot find any other far east destination further than this. I can only find Buenos Aires going south coming anywhere close to this distance.
 
Akiestar
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Sat Nov 02, 2013 11:08 pm

Quoting GuyBetsy1 (Reply 1):

Nothing in the papers in the UK advertising this.
Quoting cipango (Reply 3):
Given that they announced this route so shortly before the start date I would have expected them to pull out all the stops when it came to advertising. Poor move on their part.
Quoting awthompson (Reply 4):
They will likely advertise well in the PI (much cheaper).
MNL-LHR has been heavily advertised in the Philippines, with TV, radio and print ads everywhere in the last few months. Promotional fares for the route are selling for $1052 at the minimum in Y when booked directly. At the same time, PR will be launching its new crew uniforms tomorrow.

I'm praying that the route is successful, but I think it's way too early to pass judgement on how successful the flight will be.

Quoting cipango (Reply 3):
Out of curiosity, what alliance would they join? My guess would be Star?

They seem to be gravitating towards oneworld, but I really hope they go to SkyTeam or Star.

Quoting awthompson (Reply 4):
(I haven't checked yet if the new flight is going to be daily)

It will be five times weekly first, with the possibility of going daily.

[Edited 2013-11-02 16:14:56]
 
22886
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:09 am

Last time I checked 2 days ago, for the inaugural PR721 LHR-MNL it was only a handful booked in business and only 77 in economy, thats on an aircraft with a config of 42C/328Y.

The flight operates from LHR 5 times a week, not operating on Tuesdays and Fridays.
 
LondonCity
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:10 am

Quoting GuyBetsy1 (Reply 1):
Nothing in the papers in the UK advertising this.

PAL does not have its own proper office in the UK. Instead it's using a GSA to promote its flights.

Quoting awthompson (Reply 6):
I cannot think of anything else longer. LHR to MNL is showing 14hrs 30mins and MNL to LHR is showing 15hrs 25mins.

It's a really long flight. I wonder how Y passengers will find the 3-4-3 seating on PAL's B777-300ER for a 15hrs 25 mins flight ?
 
awthompson
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:56 pm

For me, now that the reality has set in, I'm likewise not sure that I would like to sit this long.
I may try this flight once but would prefer to break the journey where possible.
 
TC957
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:34 pm

Further to my post in reply 2, I have now read that indeed PR will be present at the World Travel Market, on the Philippines destination stand which is twice as big as the one they had at last years WTM . That will help with marketing and give them a lot of exposure to the travel industry. I'll certainly pop by anyway.
 
LJ
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:03 am

Quoting awthompson (Reply 4):
Advertising in the UK is hardly necessary as it will be 95% Filipinos that will fill these flights.

Moreover, I reckon those companies which generate UK - Philippines business traffic will probaly get more pesonal contact. The lack of advertising doesn't say much. The same if they want to lure some touroperators into selling packages to the Philippines.

Quoting cipango (Reply 3):
Given that they announced this route so shortly before the start date I would have expected them to pull out all the stops when it came to advertising. Poor move on their part.

Or maybe they don't aim at the British part of the flight?
 
factsonly
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:21 am

Quoting awthompson (Reply 4):
Up to 500 Filipinos currently travel between UK/Ireland and MNL daily, that will certainly support a daily flight

Even if these data are correct, I would not be that optimistic about success.

You will need to consider the following:

1. PR only flies from LHR.
2. The competition flies from LHR, LGW, BHX, MAN, NCL, GLA, and lots of UK regional airports via intermediate hubs.
3. PR has the higher operating costs of ULH flying = tankering fuel.
4. The competition offers intermediate stops attractive for both fuel costs and tourist breaks.
3. The competition has a long established sales networks and corporate contracts to sell the Far East at both the high and low end of the market.

So the main competitors fighting PR for these 500 passengers each day include:

- PR offers 5x departures per week from the UK and 5x departures from the Philippines and has to establish an all new sales network in Europe.

A. EK offers 136x departures from the UK/week and 28x departures/week from the Philippines.
B. KL offers 437x departures from the UK/week and 7x departures from the Philippines + 2nd stop TPE.
C. EY offers 35x departures from the UK/week and 20x departures from the Philippines.
D. QR offers 45x departures from the UK/week and 3x/departures from the Philippines.
E. SV offers 14x departures from the UK/week and 11x departures from the Philippines.

If PR survives this battle it will be a major achievement.
 
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scbriml
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:39 am

Quoting factsonly (Reply 13):
B. KL offers 437x departures from the UK/week

This must be a typo?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
LondonCity
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:59 am

Quoting factsonly (Reply 13):
So the main competitors fighting PR for these 500 passengers each day include:

You also need to include CX here. It's one of the main indirect carriers and one which business or more affluent travellers might choose because of its multiple connection possibilities via HKG.
 
TC957
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:06 pm

LHR spotters alert - RP-C7773 is doing today's inaugural service.
 
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scbriml
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:08 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 16):
LHR spotters alert - RP-C7773 is doing today's inaugural service.

Currently over the Bulgarian coast, ETA at LHR is 14:50GMT.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
factsonly
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:15 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 14):
B. KL offers 437x departures from the UK/week

This must be a typo?

You may be in for a surprise, here are the S14 numbers which are even higher than W13:

- LHR 77x/week
- LCY 44x/week
- MSE 14x/week
- BRS 27x/week
- CWL 20x/week
- BHX 35x/week
- NWI 26x/week
- MAN 42x/week
- LBA 26x/week
- HUY 20x/week
- MME 20x/week
- NCL 35x/week
- EDI 42x/week
- GLA 35x/week
- ABZ 35x/week
================
- Total 486x/week

This is only KLM and KLM-Cityhopper.

You can add the following UK carriers to AMS, but they will not compete with PR to MNL very much. Technically they could feed the KL flight to MNL also:

- INV 7x FlyBe
- GLA 5x EZY
- EDI 10x EZY
- NCL 5x EZY
- MAN 12x EZY
- BFS 7x EZY
- LPL 12x EZY
- EMA 7x FlyBe
- BHX 17x FlyBe
- LHR 50x BA
- LGW 22x BA
- LGW 45x EZY
- LCY 27x BA
- BRS 10x EZY
- EXE 7x FlyBe
- SEN 17x EZY
- SOU 23x FlyBe
- JER 3x SI
---------------------------------
- Total 266x/week

TOTAL UK-AMS in S14 = 752x/week !

SURPRISE !!!

[Edited 2013-11-04 09:29:08]

[Edited 2013-11-04 09:29:38]

[Edited 2013-11-04 09:30:18]
 
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AirAfreak
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:42 pm

Does anyone know if this flight will be crewed "senior?" I know the YVR/YYZ is a very senior trip for cabin crew. And on that note, I REALLY hope they join Skyteam. KLM and PAL will be very nice partners because each airline's cabin crew are always really friendly and a pleasure to fly with!!! (In my opinion)
Korean Air | Excellence in Flight.
 
awthompson
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:04 pm

Can anyone confirm if this was/is the longest route served non stop out of LHR?
With a couple of holds round the pattern at Lambourne, the total airborne time today ended up at 15 hrs 48 mins !!!
 
Viscount724
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:14 pm

Quoting awthompson (Reply 20):
Can anyone confirm if this was/is the longest route served non stop out of LHR?

EZE and SIN are a little longer.

LHR-EZE 5999 nm
LHR-SIN 5878 nm
LHR-MNL 5821 nm
 
skipness1E
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:15 pm

Quoting awthompson (Reply 20):
Can anyone confirm if this was/is the longest route served non stop out of LHR?

I think it must be, EZE was the current champion I think?
 
Viscount724
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:35 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 22):
Quoting awthompson (Reply 20):
Can anyone confirm if this was/is the longest route served non stop out of LHR?

I think it must be, EZE was the current champion I think?

See Reply 21. EZE is still the longest, followed by SIN. MNL appears to be next.
 
awthompson
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:33 pm

Manila is further from Heathrow than Singapore, at least via the southerly route which PAL has flown today. Singapore is only ever flown via the southern route so we are comparing like with like. Regarding Manila, we have yet to see if PAL uses the northern China/Siberia route which is closer to a great circle path and possibly shorter physically although I would need to see figures.

Those distances quoted are, I take it, shortest distances across the earth's surface, ie. great circle routes. However, particularly to the far east, such routes are never flown as they are not practical and there aren't many route choices. Hence it is actual average route flown distances that I am interested in.

Today's SIA318 was only 13hrs 45mins airborne, whereas today's PAL720 was 15hrs 48mins airborne. PAL720 spent about 15 minutes in the hold at Lambourne, but so did SIA318, and PAL720 did not choose a very good route, however we are talking here about over 2 hours of a difference in flight times proving my point.

Also proving my point, today's BAW244 (EZE-LHR) was a mere 13hrs 33mins airborne.

I know wind is also a big factor but not plus or minus two hours on these routes.

I still believe PAL720/1 is the longest route served out of LHR.
 
awthompson
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:34 pm

Did anyone hear if there was a water canon salute at Heathrow today, or is Heathrow too busy for these kind of frivolities?
 
Viscount724
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:42 pm

Quoting awthompson (Reply 24):
Those distances quoted are, I take it, shortest distances across the earth's surface, ie. great circle routes. However, particularly to the far east, such routes are never flown as they are not practical and there aren't many route choices. Hence it is actual average route flown distances that I am interested in.

Distances used in these types of A.net "longest route" comparisons are always great circle. Agree, actual routes operated are rarely the great circle route due to winds, ATC issues and other operational reasons.
 
22886
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:43 am

Quoting awthompson (Reply 25):

Did anyone hear if there was a water canon salute at Heathrow today, or is Heathrow too busy for these kind of frivolities?

Yes there was a water salute as the aircraft entered the taxiway into Terminal 4, it didn't quite work though as it was quite windy at the time and the water was just blown into a big mist around the aircraft.
 
LondonCity
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:53 am

Quoting awthompson (Reply 20):
With a couple of holds round the pattern at Lambourne, the total airborne time today ended up at 15 hrs 48 mins !!!

Crikey. I don't envy the Y passengers sitting 3-4-3.
 
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Devilfish
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:07 pm

Quoting awthompson (Reply 4):
PAL is here to stay this time I would say!

Hopefully    .

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TBqoWbAzO2...do/7GNb9wV6OsU/s1600/lhr_pr720.JPG


Quoting 22886 (Reply 8):
Last time I checked 2 days ago, for the inaugural PR721 LHR-MNL it was only a handful booked in business and only 77 in economy, thats on an aircraft with a config of 42C/328Y.

Which might force them to substitute the A340s until they could generate viable load factors. Their A359 choice may take a long time before delivery.


Quoting LondonCity (Reply 9):
It's a really long flight. I wonder how Y passengers will find the 3-4-3 seating on PAL's B777-300ER for a 15hrs 25 mins flight?

Likely as they would if those were on another airline's 77W flying the same distance.

Quoting LJ (Reply 12):
Or maybe they don't aim at the British part of the flight?

It would be terribly shortsighted of them to ignore the host market.

Quoting factsonly (Reply 13):
3. PR has the higher operating costs of ULH flying = tankering fuel.
4. The competition offers intermediate stops attractive for both fuel costs and tourist breaks.

They have to be flexible on this to remain competitive. Maybe this could provide the solution?....

http://philippineairspace.blogspot.se/2013/11/frankfurt-it-is.html

Quote:
"Philippine Airlines has secured its preferred slot at Frankfurt-Mien Airport and will be the airlines second destination in Europe after reintroducing London in 4 November.

PAL President Ramon S. Ang said that Germany possesses the second biggest number of foreign tourists arrivals in the country (see our report here) next to the United Kingdom and would like to capitalize on that strength as well as connect PAL network to the rest of mainland Europe."


.....that is, if their FRA slot jives with their LHR schedule.

Quoting factsonly (Reply 13):
So the main competitors fighting PR for these 500 passengers each day include:

- PR offers 5x departures per week from the UK and 5x departures from the Philippines and has to establish an all new sales network in Europe.

Perhaps PR could parlay their codesharing arrangements with the GCC carriers to help in that regard?

Quoting factsonly (Reply 13):
If PR survives this battle it will be a major achievement.

Indeed it will.

Quoting awthompson (Reply 24):
Regarding Manila, we have yet to see if PAL uses the northern China/Siberia route which is closer to a great circle path and possibly shorter physically although I would need to see figures.

Word is the talks regarding the overflight rights was postponed anew.....

http://philippineairspace.blogspot.s...reat-wall-to-europe-and-north.html

Negotiations on this could make or break the business case for this route.

Quoting awthompson (Reply 20):
With a couple of holds round the pattern at Lambourne, the total airborne time today ended up at 15 hrs 48 mins !!!
Quoting LondonCity (Reply 28):
Crikey. I don't envy the Y passengers sitting 3-4-3.

Same here...especially with the holidays coming. Then again, if the loads remain as noted in #8, the pax will pretty much have a free run of the cabin.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
MHG
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:20 am

The main reason for the light load is still the too short advance booking period.
The majority of VFR passengers as well as tourists book at least 4-5 months before departure.
So, in the case of PAL most of those headed for the Phils. had already booked their flights with other carriers.
... and are very unlikely to fork out additional expenses neccessary just to be able to switch to their national carrier !

I´m quite curious what PAL´s schedule to FRA will look like.
Since it was said their slots are confirmed I wonder which slots they got.
... and which frequency they intend to have initially.

At least flying time to FRA wil be a little bit shorter compared to LHR.
Should be 30-45 mins less ...
Flying is not inherently dangerous but it is very unforgiving in case of carelessness, incapacity or neglect.
 
rutankrd
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:11 pm

Today PR720 again took the southern routing over Indochina the sub continent up the gulf then Iraq to Najaf where it turned northwest across Syria and Turkey before tracking through Central Europe

Is it correct they don't have Chinese over fly rights?

Find the Syria crossing interesting as they join Garuda and MEA in being the few still transiting Syrian airspace

As the Turkish/Syrian crossings are not talking then they are out of controlled airspace to a time and I suppose they will have to get and entry/exit time before the crossing
 
MaverickM11
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:00 pm

This is going to be a flaming disaster. Super long haul, terrible fares, terrible schedule, small market, little connection between the economies, no recognition on the LHR end....if it makes six months I'll be surprised. What a waste of a 77W for PR.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
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sassiciai
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:51 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 32):
This is going to be a flaming disaster. Super long haul, terrible fares, terrible schedule, small market, little connection between the economies, no recognition on the LHR end....if it makes six months I'll be surprised. What a waste of a 77W for PR.

Agreed.

I live in Brussels, and travel to Manila twice a year for VFR reasons. I used to backtrack to LHR and fly BA to HKG, with a separate ticketed flight to MNL. When Etihad started service to Brussels, my BA loyalty wasn't strong enough to stop me now going 1-stop via Abu Dhabi, and avoiding such a tortuous ULH flight. Lounge access, a shower, exercise and being on terra firma in a wide open building for a few hours before another 8 or 9 hour flight in the confines of a claustrophobic aircraft wins my business (even a B777 after some time is claustrophobic for me).

So I wish PAL well, but I wont be giving them my direct support, other than in an emergency! Moreover, unlike BA, PAL offers no help to get me from Brussels to LHR and back!



PS - the recent introduction of the A380 by BA on the LHR - HKG route is once again making my choice difficult. Perhaps once a year BA, once EY.
 
factsonly
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:52 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 32):
What a waste of a 77W for PR.

With this schedule of....2x B77W !
 
rutankrd
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:56 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 32):
little connection between the economies

What ?

There are significant and I mean significant number of Filipino migrant workers employed in the UK in Health and Social Care sectors alone. These people make multiple return trips each year.
As of 2010 there were upwards of 200,000 Filipinos in the UK

Prior to Monday and for the preceding decade the choices have been KLM Emirates Qatar and Gulf Air in the main.

In the case of Gulf Air the "nanny shuttle" is their last major route into South East Asia.

There is also valuable perishable electronic and pharmaceutical cargo to be had.

As for terrible schedule its a 15 hour sector and the UK arrival/departure times are in the same daily window as ALL the competing regionals and the Emirates connection over Dubai.
That window is a mid afternoon UK landing and evening departure.

Recognition get built up over time. That said the brand is certainly known among the Filipino diaspora and they are targeting their advertising in trade journals such as Nursing Times as I have seen (My spouse being a nurse) and social media sites so they actually do know their audience !

Now the question of yield and profitability is a different matter.

The previous withdrawal around the mid 90s was as a result of the Tiger Economic Crisis.

I believe they will be in London for quite some time , however I could see them combining a future Frankfurt stop at some point.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:28 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 35):
What ?

There are significant and I mean significant number of Filipino migrant workers employed in the UK in Health and Social Care sectors alone.

It's super ethnic--there's very little business connection and that is evident in the fares from most places to MNL.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
rutankrd
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:53 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 36):
It's super ethnic--there's very little business connection and that is evident in the fares from most places to MNL.

So what that everything has to be about suits ?

The UK is the 11th trading economy with the Philippines and that is growing as they compete with the mainland Chinese for technology and again pharmaceutical trade.

By definition and with direct access those suits will increase you know.
 
LondonCity
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:48 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 31):
Is it correct they don't have Chinese over fly rights?

I don't know about China. But PAL also needs Russian overflying rights and these are not yet available.
 
michaeljp
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RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:06 pm

Why is traveling 15 hrs on a PR 77W any different to an EK 77W from DXB-IAH/DFW etc. Same config of 3-4-3 and there is 304 on those routes and usually full. If anything, being lighter loads you'll have space to stretch out.

Another one hoping for PR to keep this route alive. Take some business away from EK!
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18632
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:22 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 37):
So what that everything has to be about suits ?

Something needs to pay for the flight, and it's not going to be nannies and migrant workers.

Quoting michaeljp (Reply 39):
Another one hoping for PR to keep this route alive. Take some business away from EK!

I'm all for that, but I think they could do that better by blanketing the Middle East first and bringing all that migrant/nanny traffic back onto their metal.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
Akiestar
Posts: 975
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 6:51 am

RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:58 pm

If it helps, according to the horse's mouth, the inaugural flight was half-full, with 179 passengers on board.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 32):
This is going to be a flaming disaster. Super long haul, terrible fares, terrible schedule, small market, little connection between the economies, no recognition on the LHR end....if it makes six months I'll be surprised. What a waste of a 77W for PR.

PR is constrained by the slot is was granted, aircraft availability (this will change with the arrival of RP-C7772, the last 77W) and, importantly, Cat II. For several years now it refused to grow markets, being increasingly left behind by other airlines. Now that it's trying to grow a market, you think it will automatically fail from the get-go? YYZ was seen as a potential disaster and yet it's lingering around (though with a YVR stop rather than non-stop).

But to break it down for you:

* The UK is one of the Philippines' largest European trading partners, and is also home to the largest OFW population in Europe
* The UK is the Philippines' largest source of European tourists
* The UK has committed to expanding trade linkages with the Philippines

If GA had limited recognition in AMS and was able to pull it off with a similarly-sized diaspora in the Netherlands, why can't PR do the same with LHR? Although granted, Filipinos in the UK are more spread out than Indonesians in the Netherlands, but remember that London still has the largest Filipino population in the UK (around half, if I remember correctly).

Quoting factsonly (Reply 34):
With this schedule of....2x B77W !

It's 5x, not 2x.

Quoting LondonCity (Reply 38):
I don't know about China. But PAL also needs Russian overflying rights and these are not yet available.

China: we have overflight rights as far as I know, but I'm not sure if this is a one-time thing or this will be the case until we have Russian overflight rights. Politics (frosty relations at the moment between the Philippines and China) may also contribute to this.

Russia: negotiations are supposed to take place this week on expanding the Philippines-Russia ASA, which will also include touching on the issue of Russian overflight rights.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 40):
I'm all for that, but I think they could do that better by blanketing the Middle East first and bringing all that migrant/nanny traffic back onto their metal.

They're already doing that with AUH and DXB launching in the last month, and RUH and DMM coming online soon. DOH however is having problems on the Qatari end, while JED is having problems on the Saudi end, so I hope those launch soon as well.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18632
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:04 pm

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 41):
They're already doing that with AUH and DXB launching in the last month, and RUH and DMM coming online soon. DOH however is having problems on the Qatari end, while JED is having problems on the Saudi end, so I hope those launch soon as well.

I think these are all great adds; PR needs to get those passengers back on the home country carrier. MNL is going to start to get painful for the Gulf carriers. Why are they having trouble on the Qatari end?

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 41):
Now that it's trying to grow a market, you think it will automatically fail from the get-go?

LHR yes. Super far, very low fares, and next to no connections. I think it's going to be rough, to be kind.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 41):
If GA had limited recognition in AMS and was able to pull it off with a similarly-sized diaspora in the Netherlands, why can't PR do the same with LHR?

Have they pulled it off? It's a one stop via DXB, and then AUH, along with many other one stop options. I'd venture a guess that it is also losing loads of money on AMS.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
willzzz88
Posts: 146
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 4:22 am

RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:14 pm

PAL *CLEARLY* doesn't know what they're doing. If they got Chinese and Russian overflight rights like most practical airlines they can cut the current routing to 2-2.5 hours less. When they launched MNL-YYZ they didn't get Russian overflight rights forcing them to take a southern Pacific routing resulting in LOWER payload and LONGER flying time. They eventually gave up on YYZ non-stop and now stop in YVR I believe.

CX, CA, JL and the American, European and Middle Eastern airlines with the $$$ fly the SHORTEST and FASTEST route with route optimization.

I also hear Russian overflight rights are expensive, PAL clearly doesn't have a premium yield.

Trans-Polar is a miracle which is exactly why CX is so damn profitable on their HKG-JFK/EWR flights (far south enough to get there non-stop but full payload).
 
awthompson
Posts: 526
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 9:59 pm

RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:47 pm

Even worse, today's (Wednesday) PAL720 MNL-LHR took 16hrs 18mins airborne time!!!
 
Akiestar
Posts: 975
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 6:51 am

RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:00 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 42):
Why are they having trouble on the Qatari end?

The QCAA has sat on PR's application to fly to DOH. I smell protectionism as MNL/CRK is a very profitable market for QR.

http://dohapress.com/local-news/2906...-remains-hopeful-of-flying-to-doha

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 42):
next to no connections

On the LHR end, maybe, but not on the MNL end. If it's any indication, PR announced major service expansions to SIN (will be 6x daily by next month) and NRT (3x daily by next month), and upgauged MNL-DRW-BNE to an A321. This would bide well for future connections on the other end.

Quoting willzzz88 (Reply 43):
PAL *CLEARLY* doesn't know what they're doing. If they got Chinese and Russian overflight rights like most practical airlines they can cut the current routing to 2-2.5 hours less.

It doesn't know what it's doing, or you'd rather have them wait when the issue of overflight rights might be political? The Philippines-Russia ASA is being negotiated, as I mentioned earlier, and they won't be able to overfly China if they can't overfly Russia. I would think PR likes to fly great circle too, but they are limited by extraneous factors over which it has no control.

Now seriously, it's only been two days since the flight started. Wait before judging on it.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18632
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:31 am

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 45):
The QCAA has sat on PR's application to fly to DOH. I smell protectionism as MNL/CRK is a very profitable market for QR.

Weird. That's pathetic if true, but that's what happens when you have no local market and MNL drives loads of volume through the network.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 45):
On the LHR end, maybe, but not on the MNL end.

To where? Even if the flight had optimal timings, MNL is on the way to really nowhere from LHR. The few destinations that you could conceivably connect are also very competitive over other hubs in the region, so again you're back to making or breaking the flight on the local LHRMNL component, which is still a problem on the yield side. That said, I do like PR's strategy of picking off one by one all of the top MNL destinations of EK/EY/QR/SQ/etc. As soon as airlines like PR (or GA, AI, PK, etc) start to pull it together and overfly the ME3, the Gulf carriers are going to have a big void to fill. I predict this time next year MNL is going to look very ugly for the ME3, as well as anyone else caught in the crossfire.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
6thfreedom
Posts: 2641
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:09 am

RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:27 am

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 35):
Prior to Monday and for the preceding decade the choices have been KLM Emirates Qatar and Gulf Air in the main.

Really?

Here are the top 10 airlines carrying UK-Philippines traffic last year...

CX 61296
EY 38190
EK 32611
SQ 31093
KL 22598
QR 18349
MH 13040
KU 12962
SV 5158
BA 4557

many options with quality airlines.
 
LondonCity
Posts: 1069
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:57 pm

RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:26 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 46):
As soon as airlines like PR (or GA, AI, PK, etc) start to pull it together and overfly the ME3, the Gulf carriers are going to have a big void to fill. I predict this time next year MNL is going to look very ugly for the ME3, as well as anyone else caught in the crossfire.

Not true. Look at how many main and secondary airports in Europe are served by EK/EY/QR. Then look at how many airports are served by PR, AI, GA etc. It means that pax can fly from Europe to SE Asia from a more convenient airport and possibly save money too.
From the UK, PR flies only from LHR. So what are all the travellers who live and work in the UK regions going to do ? Do they spend time and money trekking to LHR or do they fly instead (via the Gulf) from the likes of BHX, MAN, GLA or NCL ?
 
rutankrd
Posts: 3080
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:08 am

RE: PR MNL - LHR: How Are The Bookings

Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:08 pm

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 47):
eally?

Here are the top 10 airlines carrying UK-Philippines traffic last year...

CX 61296
EY 38190
EK 32611
SQ 31093
KL 22598
QR 18349
MH 13040
KU 12962
SV 5158
BA 4557

many options with quality airlines.

Did i say exhaustive ?

That BA number really needs to be added to CX since they abandon people in Hong Kong that's the lie of codeshare !

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