kiwiinoz
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Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:30 am

http://www.theage.com.au/travel/trav...airline-pilots-20131105-2wyst.html

This is a surprising outcome in this day and age.

I had my first experience of an all female cockpit crew recently, on Tiger airways. Very used to a femal captain or FO up the front on my CX flights. I really felt it was getting more common but it's a little dissapointing to see that female representation in the cockpit has grown from 3% to only 5% in 2 decades.

Note my other thread on "Gulfstream Girl". I would be happy for her to fly me anywhere!
 
ikramerica
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:35 am

So silly. Because of the numbers I see it as a novelty or cool fact when I'm on a plane with female pilots but I would never think my life was in danger. Why?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
ukoverlander
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:38 am

I'm really not sure it's worth wasting key strokes on this discussion. Women pilots are every bit as capable as male pilots. To say anything other than this frankly says more about the person being questioned than about the pilot themselves. Just my 2 cents.
 
kiwiinoz
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:41 am

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 2):
I'm really not sure it's worth wasting key strokes on this discussion. Women pilots are every bit as capable as male pilots. To say anything other than this frankly says more about the person being questioned than about the pilot themselves. Just my 2 cents.

Maybe, but the thing is it wasn't just one person being questioned. It was a large percentage of a large population sample, suggesting that this kind of opinion could be a societal opinion. If that's the case, it's definitely worth a discussion.
 
rcair1
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:41 am

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 2):
Women pilots are every bit as capable as male pilots

  

Just plane stupid....  
rcair1
 
mig21umd
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:53 am

Being involved with flying planes for many years I can add that female pilots are just as capable and sometimes better than males.

The only point I might raise and something I have noticed myself is that they have used female powers of persuasion; I'm not talking about sex but definitely flirting to land some pretty impressive jobs with very little experience.

In saying that, usually these female pilots are still very capable pilots in their own right and if anything have followed the today's norms of society using their looks to accelerate their careers.

No objections, just an observation.

[Edited 2013-11-05 17:54:29]
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you long to return
 
kiwiinoz
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:58 am

Quoting mig21umd (Reply 5):
The only objection I might raise and something I have noticed myself is that they have used female powers of persuasion; I'm not talking about sex but definitely flirting to land some pretty impressive jobs with very little experience.

I guess in many fields, candidates/employees use skills outside the core competencies of a role to be viewed favourably. (eg looks, personal connections, communication style, etc). Not confined to women. In my industry, some of these secondary skills overshadow what is really required to do the job! Hopefully this doesn't happen so much with pilots!!
 
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TVNWZ
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:48 am

Several years ago on a YV flight TUSPHX there were two extremely attractive blondes as pilot and co-pilot. They were very stricking and looked like they were in their late 20's. My jaw dropped getting off the plane. By far my best experience with female pilots. And they flew the plane pretty good too.
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:08 am

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 2):
Women pilots are every bit as capable as male pilots.

Frankly I'd say the women I've flown with are better than the men. Granted my experience isn't in the airline world. But in the 141 training world they are tough. If you have a stage check with a woman you better make sure you know your stuff. They make sure you know everything and then some. I hope it isn't because they have to prove themselves, because boy I respect anybody than can come into an area as a strong minority and kick everybody's butt.

I think it's sad that people still look at gender as an excuse for things. If they have proven they are capable I see no reason why it matters.
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
FlyHossD
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:12 am

It's been a lot of years ago, but I recall the first all female crew we had at the regional I worked for then.

At the end of their first day flying together, they flew from our hub to an outstation and decided to return to the hub, due to the poor weather conditions at the destination - it was a strong blizzard.

One of the passengers on that flight had a large gathering of family and friends waiting for him at the destination and he was upset. He openly questioned the qualifications and competence of the (all female) crew. I had the pleasure of pointing out to him that our competition had attempted a landing and slid off the runway causing some damage to the aircraft and forcing the crew and passengers to hike over a mile in the blizzard to the terminal. He shut up after that.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:00 am

Disgusting and narrow minded people, who are presumably compensating for their own shortcomings.

That is all I have to say on the subject.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
737tdi
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:05 am

Well to be a stick in the spoke of a wheel. Most aircraft are designed to be flown by men. Yes a woman is just as capable as a man until things quit working.

Have any of you felt the flight controls of a 737 without hydraulics? Have you felt them when the Captains or FOs yoke becomes jammed? I don't know a woman that could fly a 737 with the Captains yoke jammed.

Is this a very rare occurrence? I don't know that it has ever happened but Boeing built it in so it must have happened at some time. If it is required then you must be able to fly it. I have been a pilot since 1976 and an aircraft mechanic since 1980 and I can tell you that I would not want a woman flying an aircraft that is in manual reversion. It takes strength and stamina.

You can point out strong women who do awesome things. Is that the majority? I think not. It is .001 percent.. I believe most women can do exactly the same things I can, except I can do them longer and better then 98 percent of the women out there.. Its all about stamina, most women just don't have it. There are definitely exceptions but most of them aren't pilots.
 
rwy04lga
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:19 am

Women have an unfair advantage in that they are not subject to color blindness the same way that men are.

To see if YOU'RE color blind...go here.-----------> http://colorvisiontesting.com/ishihara.htm

I didn't find out until I was 17, when I went for my PPL.

Now my III class medical says 'Not valid for night flight or color signal control'.

The ONE thing I wanted to do in life....I can't.....Thanks Mom!  
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
vfw614
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:16 am

I guess part of the problem is that female pilots are still singled out by the media as being something special. Here in Germany, a rather attractive female FO on Lufthansa's A380 fleet has become some sort of minor TV personality and appeared in various documentaries. For the content of all but one of the documentaries, it would not have made any difference if the cockpit crew would have been all male, but it was plain obvious that the lady was used as a poster girl.
 
CXfirst
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:26 am

Quoting kiwiinoz (Thread starter):
I really felt it was getting more common but it's a little dissapointing to see that female representation in the cockpit has grown from 3% to only 5% in 2 decades.

From my experience at flight schools, that is about the ratio of female to male students. So, in my opinion, the difference is not due to airlines hiring males instead of females, but the students they have to choose from. In fact, some airlines have actively hired females in order to get a better ratio (so they don't get accused of sexism).

Now, why we have that ratio at flight schools is a different matter. Piloting is still seen as a male occupation, so females may feel compelled to follow a different career path, or have parents/peers/society pressure them into other careers.

As for skill in the air, I don't see any difference between male and female pilots, as long as they have the same amount of experience.

-CXfirst
 
infinit
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:33 am

That is bigoted and sexist. Hopefully there will be mor female pilots in the industry soon. That will change perceptions.
Its just like how women were treated in the corporate workforce in the 60s.
 
goboeing
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:15 am

Quoting kiwiinoz (Thread starter):
it's a little dissapointing to see that female representation in the cockpit has grown from 3% to only 5% in 2 decades.

I don't if it's as disappointing as much as the fact that not very many women at all seem to be interested in this field as a career.

There are many who you meet who have the typical curiosity and want to ask questions about how a plane flies and airline schedules and all of that stuff, but they aren't actually interested in pursuing it themselves.
 
Pihero
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:08 am

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 11):
Yes a woman is just as capable as a man until things quit working.

Yes, and they seem to have a better emotional stability, the capacity for managing stress during longer period than men... which should make them better long range pilots than their male counterparts
  

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 11):
Most aircraft are designed to be flown by men.

No. They are designed for *pilots*.

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 11):
Have an]y of you felt the flight controls of a 737 without hydraulics? Have you felt them when the Captains or FOs yoke becomes jammed? I don't know a woman that could fly a 737 with the Captains yoke jammed.

With your advertised experience, you seem to forget that ALL pilots go through sim training, both during initial type rating and during every competency check.737s or 744s in manual reversion or in jammed control situations are occurrences that are trained for... and yet you see women at the controls of all Boeings.

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 11):
I believe most women can do exactly the same things I can, except I can do them longer and better then 98 percent of the women out there

Problem is that there are around quite a few ladies who could say exactly the same about you :
This one for instance
Contrail designer
 
Superfly
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:42 am

Quoting kiwiinoz (Thread starter):
I really felt it was getting more common but it's a little dissapointing to see that female representation in the cockpit has grown from 3% to only 5% in 2 decades.

MEN!   
Bring back the Concorde
 
Max Q
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:42 am

Sorry but how could they be as good as male pilots since they have smaller brains ?



(This is a joke)



I've flown with quite a few women Pilots over the years, good ones and bad ones just like guys, however the
strength factor in that manual reversion scenarion is an issue. I have seen more than one woman pilot lacking
in assertiveness on the controls or, for example, actuating reverse because of this.


And they are unfairly advantaged getting hired, there is no doubt.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
VC10er
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:07 pm

Frankly, I just can't see how gender and the flying of a high tech machine have any connection? In fact I'd love to see Rue Paul or someone like her IF she is equally qualified.

There is NO room for gender preference for a pilot or any job.
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
PEK777
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:29 pm

In standard operating procedures, I am sure a well trained and experienced woman can handle the duties of a pilot. My concern is in an emergency scenario, a woman might get all emotional, panic and start crying rather than exercise command of the aircraft. Women tend to be more emotional and less rational than men is such a scenario. Perhaps, though, the women that go into this profession are part of the minority that is more emotionally stable.
 
max550
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:49 pm

Quoting PEK777 (Reply 27):
In standard operating procedures, I am sure a well trained and experienced woman can handle the duties of a pilot. My concern is in an emergency scenario, a woman might get all emotional, panic and start crying rather than exercise command of the aircraft. Women tend to be more emotional and less rational than men is such a scenario. Perhaps, though, the women that go into this profession are part of the minority that is more emotionally stable.

Except that there's no evidence that this is the case, nor has there ever been in the 100 years or so women have been flying. Pilots are trained for emergency situations whether male or female, if an individual can't handle it they won't become a pilot.
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:50 pm

After flying with female airline pilots for nearly 40 years I have absolute confidence in their professional abilities. I worked a six day Pacific trip with four women flying the airplane and 15 male flight attendants ( and no women) in the cabin. It was one of the most fun trips I ever worked--traditionally, the captain treats those that want it to meet for an adult beverage at the hotel at the end of the day. Many of the males somehow disappear but the ladies ALWAYS pay for the entire tab. Great people, great pilots, great colleagues. On that particular trip our senior female captain came up with a cute name for our crew that is a little too risqué for repeating here but it sure made us laugh.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:58 pm

Read Robert Serling's book on female pilots called "She'll Never Get Off the Ground." Mr. Serling is, hands down, my favorite and most respected airline author (he was married to a former WAL f/a) but his personal prejudices were legendary. He did not like women pilots or male flight attendants. Had he still lived I think his opinions would have changed but he was of the old World War II airline pilot admirers that had very traditional ideas about the roles of men and women on an airplane.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
infinit
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:01 pm

Quoting PEK777 (Reply 27):
In standard operating procedures, I am sure a well trained and experienced woman can handle the duties of a pilot. My concern is in an emergency scenario, a woman might get all emotional, panic and start crying rather than exercise command of the aircraft. Women tend to be more emotional and less rational than men is such a scenario. Perhaps, though, the women that go into this profession are part of the minority that is more emotionally stable.

I disagree.

The notion that women are more emotional originates from one's socialisation process, not biology. i.e. it's not because they're female but because of how they were socialised as a child. Like if one did not play a lot of physical sports, he or she may not have psycho-motor skills as someone who did. And in this day and age, many females aren't socialised in what is traditionally assumed to be the role of a woman (which also varies across the world). Likewise, many young males aren't outdoors playing the old-school sports you or your parents might have played as a child. I definitely see that in Singapore.. and here females are known to be more career-driven especially compared to most other Asian countries.

I can bear personal testament too. I was from the Singapore Police Force before. The division I was in, one of the twenty or so divisions, was headed by a female commander. She was amazing and very inspiring as a leader. Things were highly efficient under her command. There's no way she would "start crying" if something went out of control! Quite the contrary.. I think she would mobile resources exceptionally well! I hope she becomes Commissioner.

So likewise in aviation, it is unfair to assume females would be more emotive in an emergency. In fact, depending on one's socialisation process, a male could be a lot more emotive. There were many aviation accidents and incidents where pilot error was a major error and the crew were male.. SQ006 in TPE comes to mind.
 
Tupolev160
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:01 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 21):

And this is the very reason why the society isn't evolving from that level and is unable to find answers to modern challenges, cause men aren't men anymore and women aren't women. That kills all creativity and energy (mutual synergy between the sexes) and they both feel unloved and unfulfilled from within.

We live in a society of fruitless hermaphrodites where neither the male or female principle can flourish and develop in order to eventually mutually interact in a constructive and complimentary manner (in successful and loving relationships), in order to create life and beyond.

I mean, did you ever ask yourself why so many of your fellow friends married girls from far away countries, where a woman would certainly not think of "becoming a pilot"? How many of you are so miserable and unhappy in relationship with Western women, that supposedly "fit" your equalist ideals?

Think about it.
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:14 pm

One of the "facts" that our PC culture has tried to jam down our throats is that men and women are just the same except for plumbing. Anyone who has had any experience with both sexes (which hopefully is everybody) knows deep down that that is just simply false. But since it is blasphemy to suggest otherwise, people take their knowledge in strange directions, and I think this poll is one of them. Being a private pilot myself, I know several female private pilots, and while they are better than males in some things, they have a harder time with others. But are they just as capable overall, and would I have any problem flying in a plane piloted by one of them? Certainly. They are absolutely much less inclined to do stupid stunts that men are all too prone to do; and this fact alone may make them safer overall. But the larger issue is why so few women choose to be pilots, and that is because of the difference between men and women. Women in general have much less interest and less natural aptitude for mechanical things; but they are in general much better at dealing with people. So the fact that far more women are interested in being nurses and teachers while men are more interested in being truck drivers and pilots is not discrimination, it is nature. But there is nothing that says men cannot be good teachers or nurses, or women cannot be good truck drivers or pilots; it is that comparatively few choose to do so.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
B757Forever
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:23 pm

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 2):
Women pilots are every bit as capable as male pilots.

I find that in most male dominated careers, the women who do get in have to be better than their male counterparts. They certainly draw more attention and more scrutiny than the males.
The Rolls Royce Dart. Noise = Shaft Horsepower.
 
xtoler
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:30 pm

The airline I flew with were hiring more and more female pilots. I thought it was pretty cool. But the pax who were most nervous about female pilots were older (senior age) females. Had one lady wonder why I was not in the right hand seat and she wasn't in the back. It was sort of funny but I held my breath. Flying with a lot of the female pilots I've asked them if they have had heard similar comments. They have but usually ignore them. Most female pilots I know seem highly dedicated and more focused, especially if they are flying with older male pilots. My airline was fairly small and everyone got to know everyone in a short amount of time and for the most part everyone got along.

On a side note, my wife preferred me to fly with female pilots because she thought I would be better behaved on the overnights, than flying with my male buddies.
EMB145 F/A, F/E, J41 F/A, F/E, because my wife clipped my wings, armchair captain
 
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breiz
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:33 pm

In 1992, AF Captain Danielle Décuré published a book named "Vous avez vu le pilote? C'est une femme!" (Have you seen the pilot? It's a woman!).
She wrote about her difficulties to become an airline pilot, the help she got now and then on the way, and the surprise of passengers, air controllers,..., that not only she was a pilot, but even a captain.
Looks like that mind evolution takes time.
 
Jano
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:36 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 32):
I worked a six day Pacific trip with four women flying the airplane and 15 male flight attendants ( and no women) in the cabin.

Some 6 or 7 years ago I was on such flight. It was a typical NW run from DTW to AMS. It was quite fun, especially before and after meal service. I was getting double shots of whiskey instead of single shots each time I asked  
The Widget Air Line :)
 
infinit
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:54 pm

Quoting mig21umd (Reply 43):
Please just quit while your way way way behind!
Quoting mig21umd (Reply 43):
Personally I like a strong minded women.

Have you Tupolev160 ever asked yourself if the woman in your life (if you ever had any) were ever truly happy?

Amen to that!
 
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b727fa
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:51 pm

A friend of mine was on the flight deck on day and a dad pointed to the her and said to his daughter, "Look, Suzi, a *girl* pilot!" To which my friend replied, "Yes. I hear they're going to let us vote, too!"
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
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autothrust
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:52 pm

Have nothing agains a female pilot, however there is a reason why there are so less female pilots.

Have seen in a documentary that women generally spoken have a disadvantage when it comes to multitasking and situational awareness/visual thinking.

Only a small percentage of women do pass for example fighter pilot tests. (in comparison)
Flown on: DC-9, MD-80, Fokker 100, Bae 146 Avro, Boeing 737-300, 737-400, 747-200, 747-300,747-400, 787-9, Airbus A310, A319, A320, A321, A330-200,A330-300, A340-313, A380, Bombardier CSeries 100/300, CRJ700ER/CRJ900, Embraer 190.
 
bond007
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:02 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 27):
One of the "facts" that our PC culture has tried to jam down our throats is that men and women are just the same except for plumbing. Anyone who has had any experience with both sexes (which hopefully is everybody) knows deep down that that is just simply false. But since it is blasphemy to suggest otherwise, people take their knowledge in strange directions, and I think this poll is one of them.

I couldn't have said it better  

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
smittyone
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:04 pm

Quoting PEK777 (Reply 27):
In standard operating procedures, I am sure a well trained and experienced woman can handle the duties of a pilot. My concern is in an emergency scenario, a woman might get all emotional, panic and start crying rather than exercise command of the aircraft. Women tend to be more emotional and less rational than men is such a scenario. Perhaps, though, the women that go into this profession are part of the minority that is more emotionally stable.

Because men never lose their composure under pressure?! Realistic training and testing is the only way to determine fitness for a particular duty. Even that is not perfect but far better than relying on gender-based stereotypes to ensure safety.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 19):
however the
strength factor in that manual reversion scenarion is an issue.

If physical strength is a genuine issue, then performance-based testing for pilots should take it into account and all should have to demonstrate the same minimum standards, male and female. There are plenty of non-strong dudes too in 2013...if we're going to fly jets that might require physical strength to operate safely then we need to make sure everybody has enough of it.

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 20):
I find female flying crew (pilot or co-pilot) as something totally unacceptable. Women should be completely banned from such professions and i would never board a flight with women at commands, as much as loosing the entire ticket.
I think it's already too much that women's driving became something so widely accepted (kudos to Saudi Arabia for their sane approach on the issue).

Women overstepping into the man's role is one of the worst problems of modern societies and deforms people psychologically by portraying/idolizing unnatural and sick behavior. Not any sane women would ever think of becoming a pilot(!), unless her father "always wanted her to be a boy" staff and "never had the son he wanted", which is a repressed quest for father's attention. Such issues have to be dealt with in psychiatric institutions, not in airports.

The only consolatory fact is that there is no more than 5% of them.


You assume far too much of your own intelligence when you equate a father who wants his daughter to be able to do anything she chooses with some sort of pathology.

Do you even have a daughter? I think you really know nothing of this.

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 35):
And this is the very reason why the society isn't evolving from that level and is unable to find answers to modern challenges, cause men aren't men anymore and women aren't women. That kills all creativity and energy (mutual synergy between the sexes) and they both feel unloved and unfulfilled from within.

We live in a society of fruitless hermaphrodites where neither the male or female principle can flourish and develop in order to eventually mutually interact in a constructive and complimentary manner (in successful and loving relationships), in order to create life and beyond.

I mean, did you ever ask yourself why so many of your fellow friends married girls from far away countries, where a woman would certainly not think of "becoming a pilot"? How many of you are so miserable and unhappy in relationship with Western women, that supposedly "fit" your equalist ideals?

Think about it.


Sounds like you might need to grow some balls personally and professionally, then maybe you wouldn't have to rely so much on being afforded a dominant role by gender discrimination.

Being a real man is about doing it all, and doing it well. Your attitude toward women is a crutch and does you a great disservice.

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 36):
In such societies, women are relayed to the role of objects and feminitiy exists only in the advertising and porno industries. On the other hand, men are made simple purses and slaves, either of the society or of unaccomplished, capricious and never-satisfied unrealized women (or both and yeah, i know how do you feel while reading this).

Women are reduced to 'objects' in all sorts of societies, including the traditional ones that limit them to non-driving home makers and baby feeders.

[Edited 2013-11-06 08:12:16]
 
apfpilot
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RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:38 pm

Quoting PEK777 (Reply 21):
My concern is in an emergency scenario, a woman might get all emotional, panic and start crying rather than exercise command of the aircraft. Women tend to be more emotional and less rational than men is such a scenario. Perhaps, though, the women that go into this profession are part of the minority that is more emotionally stable.

What do you base that assumption on? Do remember AF447 or any of the other myriad examples of male pilots who have screwed up under pressure? I am currently reading a book called The Limits of Expertise, the authors attempt to explain why highly trained professionals make what seem like simple mistakes that lead to emergency situations or accidents. So far none of the reasons have been because of their sex.

For me, I don't care what someone has (or doesn't have) between their legs some of the best pilots I know are female (including a close friend who flies one of the Goodyear Blimps) and I have other friends who are male and dead because they made poor decisions when they were flying. My primary CFI when was I was getting my Private and Instrument was a female, she was an excellent pilot and if I'm lucky I gained some of her experience.
Opinions are my own and do not reflect an endorsement or position of my employer.
 
cschleic
Posts: 1773
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 10:47 pm

RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:41 pm

Quoting autothrust (Reply 34):
Have seen in a documentary that women generally spoken have a disadvantage when it comes to multitasking and situational awareness/visual thinking.

Only a small percentage of women do pass for example fighter pilot tests. (in comparison)

Don't many countries restrict women from combat roles in the first place, which would exclude them from fighter training, regardless of passing a test or not?

As for women not being up to the task or working under pressure, try telling that to women astronauts, or the five female test pilots at Boeing.

http://mynorthwest.com/11/2277745/Bo...onfident-as-787-returns-to-service
 
hrc773
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:35 pm

RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:56 pm

Quoting VC10er (Reply 20):
In fact I'd love to see Rue Paul or someone like her IF she is equally qualified.

I once had a female captain on a flight, back when I worked as cabin crew. I was the out-of-base extra in the trip so the entire crew knew each other except me. As we were deplaning, a flying partner brought to my attention that the captain was transgendered and had been born a male. I thought it was interesting, given the fact that it's such the good ole boy's club up in the cockpit but never really popped in my head to question her ability to properly fly a wide body aircraft.
 
DTWPurserBoy
Posts: 2374
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:33 pm

RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:30 pm

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 37):
Quoting PEK777 (Reply 21): My concern is in an emergency scenario, a woman might get all emotional, panic and start crying rather than exercise command of the aircraft. Women tend to be more emotional and less rational than men is such a scenario. Perhaps, though, the women that go into this profession are part of the minority that is more emotionally stable.

Men have fallen apart in an emergency. I recall the crash of a DC-9 a number of years ago where the first officer (male) jumped out of the sliding cockpit windows and ran from the burning airplane without assisting his crew or passengers. IIRC in the final report his rather droll comment was "I seem to recall that my self-preservation instinct was quite high." Now in his defense I should say that it is my understanding that most airlines want the pilots to leave and let the flight attendants handle the evac because that is what we are trained to do and they want the pilots alive to debrief. (I won't say that it makes us expendable but.....) In reality, I can't think of one pilot that would even consider leaving the plane without being absolutely sure that everyone was off. Captain Sullenburger is a prime example of this dedication. We are told "when the fire gets too hot or the smoke gets too thick you turn and leave."

Physical strength is not an issue--there are very few airliners flying today with manual reversion controls. No human beings would have the strength to move a 747's controls and now fly-by-wire technology has made the concept obsolete. I once watched in a 727 simulator where the two pilots at the controls were given a complete hydraulic failure and it took both of their combined strength to wrestle the airplane around in the "sky." They were both sweating like crazy at the end of the exercise.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
rc135x
Posts: 258
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:46 am

RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:42 pm

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 11):
Is this a very rare occurrence? I don't know that it has ever happened but Boeing built it in so it must have happened at some time. If it is required then you must be able to fly it. I have been a pilot since 1976 and an aircraft mechanic since 1980 and I can tell you that I would not want a woman flying an aircraft that is in manual reversion. It takes strength and stamina.

I cannot attest to this scenario but I do have first-hand knowledge of something similar (which can be verified by another A.netter who also has this experience). I flew with this pilot and observed this behavior:

A female pilot named "Sally" had an awful reputation as the aircraft commander on a KC-135 crew. She could not properly control the airplane as it approached and eventually went into the flare and landing. She needed both hands on the yoke to control the pitch and roll, especially in crosswinds. As such, she had the copilot control the throttles. When an evaluator critiqued her for this a check ride, she claimed sexual harassment and the matter was dropped. Shortly thereafter she flew with a new copilot who didn't "understand" his duties with the throttles. She ended up dragging the number 4 engine and earned the sobriquet "Pod Sally" which stuck with her throughout her career. The mishap board blamed the copilot for "stealing" the throttles from the pilot flying and conveniently ignored why the copilot was even touching the throttles.

She was the exception to all the other women with whom I've flown in an AF career. The best IP in my T-37 phase was a woman. I have no reservation about a woman (or all women) in the cockpit and am disappointed that some feel this way.

I do know that some of my F-14 pals from VF-213 still feel very strongly about Kara Hultgreen as having been moved too quickly through the program.
KC-135A, A(RT), D, E, E(RT), Q, R, EC-135A, C, G, L, RC-135S, U, V, W, X, TC-135S, W
 
Tupolev160
Posts: 405
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:07 pm

RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:46 pm

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 36):

I'm sorry if you felt so concerned by all what i said.
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
 
rampbro
Posts: 507
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:00 am

RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:53 pm

An observation: those who agree with the view that women pilots are as capable as men appear to be drawing from specific experiences, whereas those who disagree appear to be reasoning from a abstract conceptual space.

Quoting infinit (Reply 25):
The notion that women are more emotional originates from one's socialisation process, not biology

This is the most important statement in this forum.

Those of you arguing against 'Political Correctness' or complaining that 'men aren't men and women aren't women any more', enjoy the slag heap of history.
 
tonytifao
Posts: 799
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 10:22 pm

RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:10 pm

First of all, I have 100% confidence and trust the ability of two female pilots flying a plane. Here are two AA female pilots landing @ MCO just recently  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zntXlBFKAf4
 
highflier92660
Posts: 714
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 2:16 am

RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:14 pm

I suspect this attitude chiefly is with males over the age of 50, under the height of 5' 8" and those who lost to women in athletic contests going through adolescence. Seriously, there are still a lot of men who harbor a secret suspicion that all heck will break loose with a woman during an emergency at "that time of the month."

I've heard this joke/ bit of wisdom from a retired Part 121 driver: "Do you know the first immediate action item in an emergency? Answer: Female Pilot Disconnect."
 
bond007
Posts: 4428
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:29 pm

Quoting hrc773 (Reply 39):
never really popped in my head to question her ability to properly fly a wide body aircraft.

I could comment on females in control of a wide body but ....

Quoting rampbro (Reply 44):
An observation: those who agree with the view that women pilots are as capable as men appear to be drawing from specific experiences, whereas those who disagree appear to be reasoning from a abstract conceptual space.

Anecdotes with this kind of discussion are meaningless. We could post all day about how certain female pilots were terrible, and then all the next day on how some male pilots were.

Quoting rampbro (Reply 44):
Those of you arguing against 'Political Correctness' or complaining that 'men aren't men and women aren't women any more', enjoy the slag heap of history.

Well, it's true whether you like it or not.
I'm afraid I'm one of the few I guess that believe that men and women are fundamentally different, both biologically (obviously) and mentally, and it's not just how you are brought up as a child ... if that were the case we wouldn't have a disproportionate amount of homosexual men in nursing, hospitality industries etc ... i.e. industries where women dominate.

"When it comes to performing activities that require spatial skills, like navigating directions, men generally do better. "Women use the cerebral cortex for solving problems that require navigational skills. Men use an entirely different area, mainly the left hippocampus -- a nucleus deep inside the brain that's not activated in the women's brains during navigational tasks,""

I'm not arguing they are not good pilots at all - just we need to recognize they are different - and some seem to disagree.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
n729pa
Posts: 1149
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:16 pm

RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:40 pm

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 12):
I didn't find out until I was 17, when I went for my PPL.



Can't remember when I found out, about 14-15 I think, we used to have these tests at school. I didn't get a single one on the link.

Back to topic, we had a lady pilot on Alaska Airlines some years ago, one of the best landing's you could have had. I've got no problem.

What I do have a problem with though, is a pilot who thinks his (sorry their) ability is greater than it is. Certain airlines or regions I would be very concerned about flying with/in, if their training is found to be wanting.
 
GT4EZY
Posts: 514
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:35 pm

RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:49 pm

Most pax couldn't care less. Some joke about it but deep down they have as much confidence in the female flight crew as they do their male counterparts.
Proud to fly from Manchester!
 
fruitbat
Posts: 361
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 9:34 am

RE: Female Pilots Not Trusted

Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:55 pm

I can't believe some of the complete apologist rubbish being posted on this thread. No wonder 'aviation enthusiasts' are seen as an alien breed! Some of the 'facts' used by some to justify their sexism are simply laughable, if they weren't so appalling. My teenage daughter is keen to have a career in aviation (including being a pilot) and then she comes across a thread like this. Another dream over - thanks a lot everyone.

And Before this post is deleted by an over-zealous mod, ask yourselves this: if the thread title had read 'Gay pilots not trusted' or '[religion name here] pilots not trusted' how would you all have reacted??

[Edited 2013-11-06 11:33:27]
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