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DeltaXNA
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Odd That AF Hasn't Resumed DFW

Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:32 am

Terminal D has brought in new international routes and more foreign carriers. But where is Air France? They need to serve DFW. AA would fight hard as they currently have the DFW-CDG route to themselves, but it wouldn't be much different than ICN and Korean Air vs. AA right?
 
HNL
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RE: Odd That AF Hasn't Resumed DFW

Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:42 am

AF/FL already cover the route via AMS and connections in AF gateways of NYC, ATL, MSP, and DTW that provide connections to DFW.
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rwy04lga
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RE: Odd That AF Hasn't Resumed DFW

Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:51 am

Quoting HNL (Reply 1):

So does AF/DL
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DL747400
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RE: Odd That AF Hasn't Resumed DFW

Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:55 am

I do expect that AF will eventually return to the DFW-CDG nonstop market with the full power of the DL/AF/KL trans-Atlantic JV behind it. When AF last served DFW, they did so without having that benefit. At that time it was only AF/KL and there was no JV. There are also a significant number of loyal SkyMiles members in the DFW market who would welcome a nonstop competitor to AA.

Perhaps we will see AF return to DFW in 2014-15?
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LAXdude1023
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RE: Odd That AF Hasn't Resumed DFW

Sat Nov 09, 2013 2:07 am

Quoting DeltaXNA (Thread starter):

Terminal D has brought in new international routes and more foreign carriers. But where is Air France? They need to serve DFW. AA would fight hard as they currently have the DFW-CDG route to themselves, but it wouldn't be much different than ICN and Korean Air vs. AA right?

DFW-Paris is roughly 90 PDEW. It is a large enough market but its questionable whether its large enough for two carriers. However, DFW-AMS is not a big market at 30 PDEW.

Ironically DFW-ICN is quite larger than DFW-CDG so it explains why KE and AA can co-exist.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Odd That AF Hasn't Resumed DFW

Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:25 am

AF can't maintain ORD year round on its own metal, and KL is only seasonal to DFW. AF's costs are too high to come back to DFW any time soon.
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factsonly
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RE: Odd That AF Hasn't Resumed DFW

Sat Nov 09, 2013 2:38 pm

Quoting DeltaXNA (Thread starter):
But where is Air France? They need to serve DFW. AA would fight hard as they currently have the DFW-CDG route to themselves

You are providing the answer to your own question !
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: Odd That AF Hasn't Resumed DFW

Sat Nov 09, 2013 6:43 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 5):
AF can't maintain ORD year round on its own metal, and KL is only seasonal to DFW. AF's costs are too high to come back to DFW any time soon.

It is not AF. It is AF-KL-AZ-DL joint venture. The entire t-atl operation costs (and profits) are split among the 4 airlines. If these airlines decide to return, DL might very well be the one operating the flight, if they have a better fit of aircraft than AF. DL operates a true hub at CDG (and AMS), so this scenario is entirely feasible (they fly to ORD and EWR this way already). DL's 764ER could do very well in fact for a high-business oriented city that is DFW. Small plane but very good J product, and modern up-to-date Y cabin too.

AA would certainly not like this. If AF-DL ever start it (and I sure hope they do), I doubt AA will be able to survive on the route.
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jasoncrh
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RE: Odd That AF Hasn't Resumed DFW

Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:06 pm

It's jut not going to happen. Regardless of JV. AA, being the hometown carrier with a massively loyal local market, plus its feed, would clobber AF.

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 7):
 
alfa164
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RE: Odd That AF Hasn't Resumed DFW

Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:16 pm

When AF flew the route, DFW was DL's second-largest (albeit allegedly money-losing) hub, providing feed from throughout the southwest, mountain states, and midwest. With the DL-NW merger, that feed can now go through MSP, DTW, CVG, and, of course, ATL; DFW would have to rely on O&D traffic, which is inadequate to support an AF flight.
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factsonly
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RE: Odd That AF Hasn't Resumed DFW

Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:17 pm

Quoting Jasoncrh (Reply 8):
It's jut not going to happen. Regardless of JV. AA, being the hometown carrier with a massively loyal local market, plus its feed, would clobber AF.

A rather Texan view of the world.

- CDG has 56 million international passengers
- DFW has 6 million international passengers
 
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777222LR
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RE: Odd That AF Hasn't Resumed DFW

Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:45 pm

Quoting factsonly (Reply 10):
- CDG has 56 million international passengers
- DFW has 6 million international passengers

DFW would have more international passengers if Oklahoma, Louisiana, New Mexico, Colorado, and Arkansas were foreign countries. Let's not forget that Europe is roughly the same size as the US, but made up of many different countries. So your observation is ultimately skewed.
 
texdravid
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RE: Odd That AF Hasn't Resumed DFW

Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:03 pm

What if AF did a summer seasonal schedule like KL DFW-AMS?

I understand the low passenger numbers and AA loyalty, but summer seasonal should work.
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777222LR
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RE: Odd That AF Hasn't Resumed DFW

Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:07 pm

Summer seasonal would have to still compete with AA. The smallest aircraft AF could put on this route would be the A330. I think AF/KLM would have made the decision of either CDG or AMS. Most of that traffic is headed elsewhere in Europe/Africa/Middle East/India.
 
alfa164
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RE: Odd That AF Hasn't Resumed DFW

Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:56 am

Quoting 777222LR (Reply 13):
Summer seasonal would have to still compete with AA. The smallest aircraft AF could put on this route would be the A330. I think AF/KLM would have made the decision of either CDG or AMS. Most of that traffic is headed elsewhere in Europe/Africa/Middle East/India.

Yes, an AF would be competing with KL as well. I am sure AF/KL management decided there was no reason to split the ST traffic from DFW to Europe.

[Edited 2013-11-09 19:57:03]
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MaverickM11
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RE: Odd That AF Hasn't Resumed DFW

Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:55 am

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 7):
It is not AF. It is AF-KL-AZ-DL joint venture. The entire t-atl operation costs (and profits) are split among the 4 airlines. If these airlines decide to return

The OP said AF. Either way I think a.net way overestimates the power of JVs, and in this case you either have AF operate the flight on a plane that is likely too large, on costs that are too high, or you have DL operate the flight on perhaps a better suited aircraft, but you take a hit on revenue since it'd essentially be a point-to-point flight on DL metal. For a whole slew of reasons the hub carrier is almost always going to drive better sales/connectivity/revenue than the JV partner, ie AF would be better on DFWCDG, DL on JFKNCE,etc..
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FCAFLYBOY
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RE: Odd That AF Hasn't Resumed DFW

Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:23 am

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 7):

Not entirely sure of the basis for your logic here, this is DFW, AA is KING!
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: Odd That AF Hasn't Resumed DFW

Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:20 pm

Quoting 777222LR (Reply 13):
I think AF/KLM would have made the decision of either CDG or AMS. Most of that traffic is headed elsewhere in Europe/Africa/Middle East/India.



  . I think there is a much higher probability we will see a non-European foreign flag carrier come to DFW (aka QR) before another European one, with Iberia being the one possible exception.

Quoting texdravid (Reply 12):
What if AF did a summer seasonal schedule like KL DFW-AMS?

I think it's overly ambitious to think that AF has a business case for DFW when its JV partner can't even sustain a daily service year-round. Even if the PDEW market is larger to CDG from DFW than AMS, it's pretty well-covered as is.

While I think it's great that at one point Air France served DFW, people need to remember that the service hardly lasted 5 months. It started in May 2001 and was gone by October that year. Multiple conditions plagued its downfall, but nobody truly knows how well it performed, even with a DFW hub on one end, because it lasted so briefly. It would have been interesting to see how it did during the winter months.

Also, a lot has changed since then. When AF came to DFW, there was only 1 other carrier offering massive connections from a European hub (LH). Now, you have AA/BA, LH, EK, AA/IB and KL.
 
EddieDude
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RE: Odd That AF Hasn't Resumed DFW

Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:29 pm

Quoting DeltaXNA (Thread starter):
They need to serve DFW

Why is that? Sounds like you believe it is absolutely necessary, but I don't understand why.

Quoting DeltaXNA (Thread starter):
AA would fight hard as they currently have the DFW-CDG route to themselves,

So you are saying that AF needs to get into a bloody fare war on DFW-CDG? That won't end well, I think you would agree, yet they NEED to do it. Hmmm.

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 7):
DL operates a true hub at CDG (and AMS)

I do not believe you can call CDG a DL hub. DL does not have flights to other European or Asian countries ex-CDG. AMS, on the other hand, is a DL hub.

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 7):
If AF-DL ever start it (and I sure hope they do), I doubt AA will be able to survive on the route.

Absolutely not. AA would prevail in my opinion.
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goldorak
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RE: Odd That AF Hasn't Resumed DFW

Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:38 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 18):
I do not believe you can call CDG a DL hub. DL does not have flights to other European or Asian countries ex-CDG. AMS, on the other hand, is a DL hub.

I fail to see what makes AMS a DL hub and not CDG. It's not because DL has one non-US flight (to BOM) ex-AMS that it makes AMS a DL hub. For me, neither CDG and AMS are DL hubs. They are Skyteam hubs, in addition of course of being AF and KL hubs. Am I missing something ?
 
jasoncrh
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RE: Odd That AF Hasn't Resumed DFW

Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:52 pm

You can call it a "Sky Team Hub" as long as you want, but that doesnt change the fact that it's an Air France hub at CDG, a KL hub at AMS, etc. Regardless of alliance membership, each individual airline has, at the end of the day, to make the decision to serve it or not serve it based on their own economics. While Delta is more integrated with AF and KL because of their joint venture, it still has to be Delta's (or AF's or KL's, etc) decision to put their aircraft where they do at the end of the day. Those are all AF aircraft at CDG, just as those are all KL aircraft at AMS. Sky team (and Star, and one world, etc) are all marketing associations at the end of the day that have ZERO influence on where the airlines fly. SkyTeam does NOT subsidize or pay for any individual carrier's service. The airline does, and it's their decision, not Sky Team's, as to where they fly.

AF, KL and DL all can jointly look at a market to decide if they want it served as part of their immunized alliance, but if nobody has the airplane, or individually the airlines think they have a better use for a certain plane (DL decides to send an extra plane to Asia, for example, or KL decides to send an extra flight to Africa, for example), then so be it and the route wont be served.

Quoting goldorak (Reply 19):
I fail to see what makes AMS a DL hub and not CDG. It's not because DL has one non-US flight (to BOM) ex-AMS that it makes AMS a DL hub. For me, neither CDG and AMS are DL hubs. They are Skyteam hubs, in addition of course of being AF and KL hubs. Am I missing something ?
 
a380787
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RE: Odd That AF Hasn't Resumed DFW

Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:23 pm

Did I miss the announcement that DL is going to operate DFW-LHR (but part of JV with VS instead of AF)
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Odd That AF Hasn't Resumed DFW

Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:06 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 5):
AF's costs are too high to come back to DFW any time soon.

   Some cost reduction and a 787 is required. AA is going to own the DFW side premium traffic so it will always be tough for a non-aligned (and unwelcome) competitor.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 18):
Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 7):
If AF-DL ever start it (and I sure hope they do), I doubt AA will be able to survive on the route.

Absolutely not. AA would prevail in my opinion.

   WIth AF having split hub operations at ORY/CDG, they operate at a disadvantage. AA simply has the feed to thrive through *any* price war.

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factsonly
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RE: Odd That AF Hasn't Resumed DFW

Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:35 pm

Quoting 777222LR (Reply 11):
So your observation is ultimately skewed.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 22):
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 18):
Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 7):
If AF-DL ever start it (and I sure hope they do), I doubt AA will be able to survive on the route.

Absolutely not. AA would prevail in my opinion.

   WIth AF having split hub operations at ORY/CDG, they operate at a disadvantage. AA simply has the feed to thrive through *any* price war.

Lightsaber

Our US friends firmly believe in DFW !

A fact remains that CDG is larger, and therefore the powers of AA at DFW could well be matched by the (stronger non-US) sales powers of AF on the other side of the pond.

Yet AF has decided not to operate the route, as the route is not big enough for two carriers to compete on a daily basis.

Passenger ranking last 12 months = July 2012 - July 2013:

1 - ATL = pax 94 874 046 + 0.5
2 - PEK = pax 83 133 855 + 3.1
3 - LHR = pax 71 193 029 + 1.9
4 - HND = pax 68 659 415 + 3.9
5 - ORD = pax 66 238 792 - (1.7)
6 - LAX = pax 65 306 866 + 3.6
7 - DXB = pax 62 719 220 + 14.8
8 - CDG = pax 61 444 736 - (0.5)
9 - DFW = pax 59 902 493 + 2.4
10 - CGK = pax 58 678 870 + 6.3

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