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brucek
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ORD Runway Configuration

Sat Nov 09, 2013 5:14 am

Now that ORD has the 4 east-west runways, as well as the 2X 32's and the 2X 22's, what is a typical runway configuration for landings and takeoffs?
 
Confuscius
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ORD Runway Configuration

Sat Nov 09, 2013 5:22 am

Ain't I a stinker?
 
ordpark
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ORD Runway Configuration

Sat Nov 09, 2013 5:25 am

Well, we're just getting used to all these runways...But they are making every effort use an East/West configuration. Arrivals have started on 9L The far north runway and of course the new runway. 22L is still being used for dptrs but 22R and 14R which had been used quite often for arrivals have seen their activity greatly diminished (14R does seem to be used later in the evening for arrivals)
 
iahcsr
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ORD Runway Configuration

Sat Nov 09, 2013 6:09 am

Why 10C/28C and not 10R/28L ? Is there room for a ninth runway further south?
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skywaymanaz
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:09 am

Quoting iahcsr (Reply 3):
Is there room for a ninth runway further south?

Yup part of the last phase. It will be near the end of 4R extending to the west.
 
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tjwgrr
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:52 am

Official diagram here, including the future 10R /28L as shown by the dotted lines:

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1311/00166AD.PDF
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Goldenshield
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:11 pm

Just to note here: 14L/32R, while still in commission, will not longer be used, and is slated to be torn up in the near future.
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skywaymanaz
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:27 pm

Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 5):
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1311/00166AD.PDF

There will also be a 9C/27C just north of the current 9R/27L. Probably taxiway MM on the east side will be extended between the two runways and the runway will be close to taxiway G's alignment on the west side. Final configuration will be 6 parallel runways, 4 of them close in and 2 distant for quadruple simultaneous IFR arrivals. There will be 2 cross runways, the 4/22's. Both 14/32's will close which surprised me given how often I've been on a plane roaring down 32L for takeoff. It used to be one of the longest runways in the country IIRC. It has been shortened a bit to accomodate 10C/28C construction with 10L/28R lengthened to compensate. The wind pattern for irregular ops must favor the 4/22's instead of the 14/32's. Wikipedia has a nice graphic of the runway phasing down near the bottom under Mondernization plan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Hare_International_Airport
 
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rmoore7734
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Sat Nov 09, 2013 2:23 pm

DFW also boasts of quad arrivals & wonder how often they do that & how often would ORD do the same ?
 
apodino
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Sat Nov 09, 2013 5:17 pm

Quoting rmoore7734 (Reply 8):
DFW also boasts of quad arrivals & wonder how often they do that & how often would ORD do the same ?

Quads are SOP in DFW for much of the time. Assuming a south config usually the way it works is arrivals from the SW are vectored to 13R, NW arrivals are vectored to 18R, NE arrivals to 17C, and SE arrivals to 17R, with 18L and 17R being departure runways.

Based on that, the way I think it will work in ORD would be on a West config, Bullz arrivals (NW), will primarily get 27R, Paitn Arrivals (NE) will primarily get 27C, Arrivals from the SE will get 28C, and the BDF arrivals (SW), will primarily get 28L. One thing I wonder in this config is will ORD have the ability to do converging approaches to 4R, 9R, and/or 9C? I would think i would make sense just to keep the parallel runways in place though since you have four of them to use. Plus, by not using 4R, you give MDW a little more room to work with and you may be able to even come up with an approach that steers clear of ORD airspace but would allow 13C to be used more often if operationally needed.
 
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rmoore7734
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Sat Nov 09, 2013 6:19 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 9):
SE arrivals to 17R

Think you meant 17L

Sounds like quads can only work with the south winds direction (DFW) & if blowing from the north only triple ?
 
727LOVER
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:23 pm

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 6):
Just to note here: 14L/32R, while still in commission, will not longer be used, and is slated to be torn up in the near future.

From my observations of three visits, one in 2007 and two in 2008 (before the north runway opened) this runway was rarely used anway except for departures on 14L.....am I correct?

My main question, is 28R (former 28 & 27L) still being used for most widebody and cargo landings?

Being at the USG is the best spot, is it still worth a trip?
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
N243NW
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:23 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 9):
arrivals from the SW are vectored to 13R

Very rarely does it work this way, due to the airspace around the west side of the airport and the different departure and arrival corridors. The arrivals from the SW typically fly north on a downwind and are vectored to 18R, while arrivals from the NW use either a straight-in approach to 13R or use 18R if traffic permits.

Quoting rmoore7734 (Reply 10):
Sounds like quads can only work with the south winds direction (DFW) & if blowing from the north only triple ?

When the airport is in north flow, 31R becomes an option for arrivals. I'm not sure what the restrictions are for using 35R and 31R for simultaneous arrivals, though, since they're pretty close to one another and on converging paths.
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rmoore7734
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:39 pm

Nice simulation of ORD Triple Simultaneous Approach

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSAW9cm2OdA
 
airfinair
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:49 pm

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 11):
My main question, is 28R (former 28 & 27L) still being used for most wide body and cargo landings?

No, 28R is being used mainly for departures. Cargo arrivals heading to South Cargo are mainly using 28C, as are most foreign arrivals. (if you watch the ORD ops via Flightradar24 you'll have a good idea of traffic patterns.)


Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 11):
Being at the USG is the best spot, is it still worth a trip?

I was there today for the lunch time wide body rush. Yes, it is still good, but since 28C is being used for arrivals the lighting is not good for photos as they are arriving directly over Lawrence - you'd be shooting into the sun from USG. Lots of spotters/ photographers out there today...any anetters beside me????

BTW, config today was 28C, 27L, 27R arrivals, 28R, 22L, 32L departures. Winds 270 at 25kts gusting to 30kts. What was interesting is the 2 minute minimum wait for 22L departures after a 28C wide body arrival due to wake turbulence. At one point there were two or three wide body arrivals in a row on 28C, and the 22L departures were stacking up. There was an AA 738 lined up a and waiting on 22L for at least 10 minutes.
ORD,MDW,IND,ARB,AMS,FRA,AUS,ANQ,DTW,DEN,PHL,PIT,MIA,GPT,SAN,PHX,LAX,SFO,OAK,SEA,LAS,SLC,SMF,ATL,MEM,BOS,MHT,JFK,EWR,LGA,NAS,SAT,MSY,DFW,AUS,IAD,GCM,RSW,PHL,CLT,
 
727LOVER
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:55 pm

OK, this

Quoting airfinair (Reply 14):
No, 28R is being used mainly for departures.

contradicts with this:

Quoting airfinair (Reply 14):
Yes, it is still good

Im confused.

If I am @ USG....will I still have a constant flow of arrivals IN FRONT of me if I am facing north?
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
airfinair
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:15 pm

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 15):
If I am @ USG....will I still have a constant flow of arrivals IN FRONT of me if I am facing north?

Nope. Arrivals will be behind you if you were facing north. I did not see today nor have I seen on Flightradar24 any 28R arrivals since 28C opened.

The reason USG is still good is solely for spotting purposes, not photography (in my opinion) since you're forced to shoot into the sun for 28C arrivals. There are probably other good places south of Lawrence to photograph 28C arrivals, like the Schiller Park train station on Ruby St. south of Lawrence. I haven't tried spotting there but it should provide better photos.
ORD,MDW,IND,ARB,AMS,FRA,AUS,ANQ,DTW,DEN,PHL,PIT,MIA,GPT,SAN,PHX,LAX,SFO,OAK,SEA,LAS,SLC,SMF,ATL,MEM,BOS,MHT,JFK,EWR,LGA,NAS,SAT,MSY,DFW,AUS,IAD,GCM,RSW,PHL,CLT,
 
727LOVER
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Sun Nov 10, 2013 12:09 am

Quoting airfinair (Reply 16):
Nope.

Too bad.....I guess ORD is no longer on my photography stops.  
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
Viscount724
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Sun Nov 10, 2013 12:12 am

Do any airports worldwide have more than ORD's 8 current runways? DFW probably comes closest with 7 and DEN/DTW with 6.
 
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jetblastdubai
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:04 am

[quote=airfinair,reply=14] 2 minute minimum wait for 22L departures after a 28C wide body arrival due

I'll have to check with my old ORD controller buddies but there should not be a wake turbulence penalty with a 22L departure and a 28C arrival...that'd be very, very strange. Wake turb only applies to airborne flight paths and no one off 22L is going to be airborne before 28C. If this is the case, then 22L isn't worth using because most int'l heavies will request 28C for it's length compared to the much shorter 27L&R. It's different landing 9R and departing 32L as it's very possible for a 32L departure to be airborne prior to the 9R arriving 757/heavy flight path.

With a 'free-roll' 28R and 32L, there should be very little use for a 3rd departure runway as you can roll departures much closer than the arrival spacing and these two could handle almost any departure volume. With the rash of RJs and gradually diminishing number of 757s, most departures can be shot off less than 2 miles intrail as long as the initial headings diverge. It's possible that AA wasn't able to accept the intersection departure on 28R and they sent him to 22L instead and he sat there waiting for a sequence with the 28R departures.

I'll do a little research as this would be very interesting.
 
ckfred
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:11 am

I've noticed that the steady stream of arrivals on 4R is completely gone. Living southwest of ORD, I've watched arrivals on 4R for the last 15 years. So, it's weird not seeing the steady stream of AA and UA planes.

What's even weirder now is seeing Southwest 737s appear in what used to be the 4R arrival pattern, then turning east where I-88 passes Yorktown Shopping Center. Is it safe to assume that because ORD is now configured for east-west flows that when ORD doesn't have depatures on 22L, MDW can use the airspace to the south for sequencing arrivals?
 
airfinair
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:11 am

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 19):
that'd be very, very strange. Wake turb only applies to airborne flight paths and no one off 22L is going to be airborne before 28C. If this is the case, then 22L isn't worth using because most int'l heavies will request 28C for it's length compared to the much shorter 27L&R.

I agree, very strange. But that's what the tower controllers were telling the 22L departures - a 2 minute wake turbulence hold after a 28C heavy arrival. I know 22L departures wouldn't be airborne by the time they pass 28C, but I assume they feel wake turbulance could affect a 22L departure's path while its rolling??

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 17):
Too bad.....I guess ORD is no longer on my photography stops

You should take a look at the most recent ORD photos in the database - other photographers are uploading shots of 28C arrivals and they appear to be facing a north or northeast direction, so they must have found some new worthy locations that are south of Lawrence Ave.
ORD,MDW,IND,ARB,AMS,FRA,AUS,ANQ,DTW,DEN,PHL,PIT,MIA,GPT,SAN,PHX,LAX,SFO,OAK,SEA,LAS,SLC,SMF,ATL,MEM,BOS,MHT,JFK,EWR,LGA,NAS,SAT,MSY,DFW,AUS,IAD,GCM,RSW,PHL,CLT,
 
PITrules
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:11 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 18):
Do any airports worldwide have more than ORD's 8 current runways? DFW probably comes closest with 7 and DEN/DTW with 6.

While not a commercial airport, and not all runways are paved, I think Edwards AFB wins this title. I counted 16 runways.



Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 19):
there should not be a wake turbulence penalty with a 22L departure and a 28C arrival...that'd be very, very strange. Wake turb only applies to airborne flight paths and no one off 22L is going to be airborne before 28C. If this is the case, then 22L isn't worth using because most int'l heavies will request 28C for it's length compared to the much shorter 27L&R

Vortexes descend and go outward. With this in mind, while looking at an ORD diagram, it is easy to see the vortex of an airliner landing 1000-3000 feet down 28C would cross the path of 22L about half way down its length. There are plenty of aircraft that will be off the ground using only half 22L's length.

As far as heavies using 27L for landing, this has been done for years. Why would that change now?
FLYi
 
airstatdfw
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:11 am

It is something new that has came out about 22L dep and heavy 28C arrivals. You have to ensure the 22L dep won't be airborne prior to 28C intersection. Some small aircraft have been airborne by the intersection. So there is the wake turbulence delay now.
 
thekennady
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:13 pm

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 17):
Too bad.....I guess ORD is no longer on my photography stops

Despite having alot of traffic, ORD is not a easy airport to spot at. But with the east/west traffic flows it will simplify the airfield so planes will be visible and you wont see planes coming in from 3-4 different directions as much. Hopefully there are some better spots found where spotting will be easier at ORD. ORD is notorious for being hard to spot planes at, such a big a spread out airport, and no elevated areas or areas beside one of the runways. Would love to discover a good area to chill and watch planes but its tough to do at ORD, not to mention the harrasment you may encounter from police/security.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:58 pm

Quoting airfinair (Reply 14):
What was interesting is the 2 minute minimum wait for 22L departures after a 28C wide body arrival due to wake turbulence. At one point there were two or three wide body arrivals in a row on 28C, and the 22L departures were stacking up. There was an AA 738 lined up a and waiting on 22L for at least 10 minutes.

One would think minimizing heavies from arriving on 28C would mostly fix this issue. The other option would be to occasionally use 28R for heavy arrival depending on departures. 28R and 28 could be flip flopped to prevent this problem, but I see the ability to prevent runway crossing with the current configuration. Maybe they are still learning to deal with the new runways.
Is there an issue with heavies using 27L for arrivals due to shorter runway length?
 
Goldenshield
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:03 pm

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 11):
From my observations of three visits, one in 2007 and two in 2008 (before the north runway opened) this runway was rarely used anway except for departures on 14L.....am I correct?

Correct. It was used in early mornings, too, while other runways were shut down, but the usual configurations rarely required its use.
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CIDFlyer
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:25 pm

Quoting thekennady (Reply 24):
Despite having alot of traffic, ORD is not a easy airport to spot at. But with the east/west traffic flows it will simplify the airfield so planes will be visible and you wont see planes coming in from 3-4 different directions as much. Hopefully there are some better spots found where spotting will be easier at ORD. ORD is notorious for being hard to spot planes at, such a big a spread out airport, and no elevated areas or areas beside one of the runways. Would love to discover a good area to chill and watch planes but its tough to do at ORD, not to mention the harrasment you may encounter from police/security.

I found a good spot to watch at the new Chicago Outlet Mall in Rosemont on top of the parking garage. Got some good viewing there!
 
thekennady
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:10 pm

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 27):

oh yes it looks to be in a good spot to see the 28/10s and 4R/22L along with T5, and can even see whats landing on the 27s. Also in west to east opps, departures will mainly be on 9R and 10L which would make for some good views of departing aircraft...i will have to check this spot out!
 
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jetblastdubai
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:58 pm

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 25):
One would think minimizing heavies from arriving on 28C would mostly fix this issue

Easier said than done. Things might be a little better now that a bigger percentage of the int'l arrivals are non-747. When I worked ORD radar (years ago) very few of the 747 arrivals would accept what is now 27L because of it's length as well as a fair amount of AA int'l arrivals but that may have been just for the convenience parking. AA was notorious for requesting non-standard runways for arrival and departure for shorter taxi distances.

On a west flow, it's very easy to take any aircraft from the NW, SW or SE and assign them 28C but from the NE fix, you need to cross over the top of 2 other finals (with altitude separation built in) and then get them back on the left downwind and join the normal pattern. Problem is, all the European arrivals come from the NE fix. With more 777s/A330s in the European mix, the problem might be minimized. The freighters will probably always request 28C/10C due to their landing weight and also partly for the easier access to their parking on the SW side of the airport.

On an east flow, the Asian int'l arrivals will have the same problem....harder to get them to the southern-most parallel when they arrive from the NW fix.
 
planeguy727
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:22 am

Arrived on 27R on Friday and again today. The taxi Friday to K2 and today to K16 felt longer than arriving on the Polderbaan at AMS.
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jetblastdubai
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:53 am

Quoting airstatdfw (Reply 23):
It is something new that has came out about 22L dep and heavy 28C arrivals. You have to ensure the 22L dep won't be airborne prior to 28C intersection. Some small aircraft have been airborne by the intersection. So there is the wake turbulence delay now.

Might be time to put the word out to the pilot groups that the wake turbulence delay can be waived as long as it's initiated by the pilot.

Quick question for you: Are you guys allowed to side-step arrivals to 28R or 10L if there are no departures or have they tied your hands there as well?
 
ckfred
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:22 pm

Quoting planeguy727 (Reply 30):
Arrived on 27R on Friday and again today. The taxi Friday to K2 and today to K16 felt longer than arriving on the Polderbaan at AMS.

I once timed the time for taxiing from 27R to Concourse B, and it's about 20 minutes. So, it's got to be a longer taxi to any of the AA gates.

I have a friend who is an AA pilot, and he gets a little irritated at how runways are assigned for arrival. To him, it made no sense that a flight from Europe got assigned to 27R, while a flight from MKE, GRR, or DTW was assigned to 28R (this was before 10C/28C opened).
 
apodino
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:35 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 29):
On a west flow, it's very easy to take any aircraft from the NW, SW or SE and assign them 28C but from the NE fix, you need to cross over the top of 2 other finals (with altitude separation built in) and then get them back on the left downwind and join the normal pattern. Problem is, all the European arrivals come from the NE fix. With more 777s/A330s in the European mix, the problem might be minimized. The freighters will probably always request 28C/10C due to their landing weight and also partly for the easier access to their parking on the SW side of the airport.

How far east does Approach's airspace actually go? Because I would think rather than crossing arrivals over the top of
two other arrival paths you could vector them around the back of the approach paths, very similar to what is done at MCO or LAX. Also, I haven't seen the BULLZ plate in a while, but I believe as an RNAV arrival, the published downwind would bring you to the north of the field, so when you get to the east side the earlier problem is still there.
 
airstatdfw
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:57 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 31):

Not during the day, as the RWY is clsd east of EE or west of DD for crossing traffic. Maybe in the future but right now, no.
 
sovietjet
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:33 pm

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 11):
From my observations of three visits, one in 2007 and two in 2008 (before the north runway opened) this runway was rarely used anway except for departures on 14L.....am I correct?

Yes 14L departures were occasionally in use. In the past year or two 32R was very often used for European heavy departures.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 11):
My main question, is 28R (former 28 & 27L) still being used for most widebody and cargo landings?

No. This has become mainly a departure runway. Although the Lufthansa 748 used it a few days ago to land.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 11):
Being at the USG is the best spot, is it still worth a trip?

Not for photography. Although in summer in late afternoon when the sun swings around it should be nice at USG.

Quoting airfinair (Reply 14):
I was there today for the lunch time wide body rush. Yes, it is still good, but since 28C is being used for arrivals the lighting is not good for photos as they are arriving directly over Lawrence - you'd be shooting into the sun from USG. Lots of spotters/ photographers out there today...any anetters beside me????

November 9th? I was out all day taking photos too.

Quoting airfinair (Reply 16):
There are probably other good places south of Lawrence to photograph 28C arrivals

I took these photos yesterday, and last weekend of 28C arrival and 28R departure.









Quoting thekennady (Reply 24):
Despite having alot of traffic, ORD is not a easy airport to spot at.

I don't think this is true. While photos are not as simple as some European airports there are PLENTY of spots for almost any arrival/departure configuration. Over the years I have found a spot for pretty much anything I need, on any runway. Action of the aircraft on the ground was hard to do before, but now with the two new runways in the past 4 years it is much easier.

Quoting thekennady (Reply 24):
ORD is notorious for being hard to spot planes at, such a big a spread out airport, and no elevated areas or areas beside one of the runways. Would love to discover a good area to chill and watch planes but its tough to do at ORD, not to mention the harrasment you may encounter from police/security.

Again, not true. The Airport Watch program which has been going on for the past 3 years has greatly decreased harassment from police. Pretty much all surrounding municipalities, police, etc... all know about plane photographers by now. We have orange vests and badges too in case we do get checked up on. Police encounters, if any, now are short and painless.

[Edited 2013-11-11 08:35:56]
 
N353SK
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:43 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 31):
Might be time to put the word out to the pilot groups that the wake turbulence delay can be waived as long as it's initiated by the pilot.

The "small aircraft" being referred to are the Air Choice One Caravans. I don't think it would be very safe for them to be climbing out at 50 feet flying directly under (hopefully not through) a 777 wake.
 
thekennady
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:52 pm

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 35):
We have orange vests and badges too in case we do get checked up on

Is this required? and are you allowed to access places that a common spotter cannot? because I've not found it as easy as you make it out to be.
 
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jetblastdubai
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:07 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 33):
How far east does Approach's airspace actually go? Because I would think rather than crossing arrivals over the top of
two other arrival paths you could vector them around the back

Assuming the airspace hasn't changed much since I worked radar, the approach airspace extends about 35 miles from the center of ORD. To the east it butts up with South Bend airspace and to the north it ends at the WI state line/MKE airspace.

It would not work to vector the NE arrivals around the back because that's where departures do their climbing as O'Hare tunnels their departures out instead of climbing them in the opposite direction of their destination like LAX. On a west flow, the NE arrivals come in on a southwesterly heading and then at approx. 20 miles from ORD they turn straight south and then eventually angle back to the east to join a downwind. They don't descend below 7,000' until they're roughly 8miles north of the final. The east departures will climb out on a NE heading, stopped at 5,000 and then turn east approx. 10miles NE of ORD. They'll stay at 5,000 (sometimes 6,000') until they pass the inbounds that are headed straight south and then they've got to climb so as to top the SBN airspace bounday which is about 15-20 miles away. If you were running those heavies around the backside, the departures would be stuck a 5 or 6,000' for 30 miles or so and they'd drive thru SBN's airspace.

LAX (worked there too) runs some of their eastbound traffic straight west out over the ocean and they do a 180 degree turn back towards the airport so that they can cross the airport at 10,000' or higher (for noise abatement). Usually requires running out at least 10 miles and then 10 miles back, plus the big turn. These planes have flown at least 25 miles and then end up right back at the airport. The ORD departures fly generally in the direction of their destination right off the bat although they are sometimes stuck down at lower altitudes for longer. Luckily, ORD has extremely flexible ATC procedures and if there is a gap in the arrival stream, the departures can be climbed unrestriced right off the ground and on their way as long they don't interfere with any arrival traffic. Very efficient, lots of fun to watch but a very unforgiving procedure if something goes wrong.
 
sovietjet
Posts: 2687
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:10 pm

Quoting thekennady (Reply 37):
Is this required? and are you allowed to access places that a common spotter cannot? because I've not found it as easy as you make it out to be.

No, being a member of Airport Watch program is not required to take photos. And it doesn't give you any special access. Remember, you can legally take photos from any public place. I was taking photos at ORD way before this program started. The only thing that has changed is that police are now much more familiar with photographers hanging around ORD. And it makes any confrontation with them much easier. Before, I had cases where I would be questioned by police for 10-15min and checked. Usually they would leave me alone after they have checked me. Now it takes a minute if any police ever show up. However, there is still no requirement to be a member in order to spot. It just makes things easier for the regulars.
 
thekennady
Posts: 366
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:00 am

RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:34 pm

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 39):
No, being a member of Airport Watch program is not required to take photos. And it doesn't give you any special access. Remember, you can legally take photos from any public place

Good, I need to scout some spots out, with the new runway config, traffic trough ORD should be more predictable
 
thekennady
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:43 pm

Does anyone know when the 22s will be used for landing? I know 22L is rarely used for arrivals but in strong crosswinds will we see more of the 22s used? or is 4R and 22L going to be just used for departures?
 
sovietjet
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:04 pm

Quoting thekennady (Reply 41):
Does anyone know when the 22s will be used for landing? I know 22L is rarely used for arrivals but in strong crosswinds will we see more of the 22s used? or is 4R and 22L going to be just used for departures?

I believe the plan is to use those in strong crosswind. Someone wrote above it will be maybe 1% of the time. 22L arrivals is quite rare, but when it happens, it offers some interesting perspective for photos (with a longer lens):




 
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jetblastdubai
Posts: 2007
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:36 pm

Quoting N353SK (Reply 36):
The "small aircraft" being referred to are the Air Choice One Caravans. I don't think it would be very safe for them

Naturally, it would be done by the aircraft that would not be airborne before 28C. Most carriers probably rotate near the Post Office so wake turbulence would not be a factor in the least. Common sense should be used.
 
apodino
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:56 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 38):

It would not work to vector the NE arrivals around the back because that's where departures do their climbing as O'Hare tunnels their departures out instead of climbing them in the opposite direction of their destination like LAX. On a west flow, the NE arrivals come in on a southwesterly heading and then at approx. 20 miles from ORD they turn straight south and then eventually angle back to the east to join a downwind. They don't descend below 7,000' until they're roughly 8miles north of the final. The east departures will climb out on a NE heading, stopped at 5,000 and then turn east approx. 10miles NE of ORD. They'll stay at 5,000 (sometimes 6,000') until they pass the inbounds that are headed straight south and then they've got to climb so as to top the SBN airspace bounday which is about 15-20 miles away. If you were running those heavies around the backside, the departures would be stuck a 5 or 6,000' for 30 miles or so and they'd drive thru SBN's airspace.

Ok...my next question is...why tunnel at 5000 feet for so long? Wouldn't it make more sense for look and go pointouts like most facilities do, where you would look at a conflicting arrival corridor, then if its clear climb them over that? And doing something like this would give the approach guy a lot more airspace to work with to sequence arrivals. That is how BOS does it on a SW config, because its 5000 feet, but assuming no inbounds to 27, they will immediately climb them to 14000 feet? LAS does it on 25R because departures are normally capped over CLARR at 7000, then assuming there are no FUZZY inbounds, they can immediately climb them to FL190. The way ORD does it seems very innefficient to me. One other thing I wonder about with ORD. Will they implement RNAV departures off the deck when all six runways are finished? This way you could design departure procedures in a way where you have altitude caps built in, and the corridors are such where you don't have a conflict with arrival traffic. ATL, DFW, and CLT are three facilities that use this to a perfection. And I can't believe that airlines themselves would be real happy with having to spend so much time at 5000 as this has to be bad for fuel burns.
 
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jsnww81
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:00 pm

Quoting thekennady (Reply 41):
Does anyone know when the 22s will be used for landing? I know 22L is rarely used for arrivals but in strong crosswinds will we see more of the 22s used? or is 4R and 22L going to be just used for departures?

In 13 years of living in Chicago, I've landed on 22L just twice. Both times were on very sunny, but very windy, cold winter days with high crosswinds. The only runway I have never landed on is 32R. Although there are approach lights for 32R, I have never once seen it used for landings - just takeoffs, and even those seem to be limited to European heavies these days.
 
sovietjet
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:04 pm

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 45):
Although there are approach lights for 32R, I have never once seen it used for landings - just takeoffs, and even those seem to be limited to European heavies these days.

Air Force 1 often uses 32R for landing
 
PITrules
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:56 pm


Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 43):

Naturally, it would be done by the aircraft that would not be airborne before 28C. Most carriers probably rotate near the Post Office so wake turbulence would not be a factor in the least. Common sense should be used.




-
Quoting PITrules (Reply 22):
Vortexes descend and go outward. With this in mind, while looking at an ORD diagram, it is easy to see the vortex of an airliner landing 1000-3000 feet down 28C would cross the path of 22L about half way down its length. There are plenty of aircraft that will be off the ground using only half 22L's length.
FLYi
 
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jetblastdubai
Posts: 2007
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:31 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 44):
Wouldn't it make more sense for look and go pointouts like most facilities do, where you would look at a conflicting arrival corridor, then if its clear climb them over

ORD is way ahead of you on that thought. Other facilities do pointouts which requires verbal coordination between controllers and that takes time away from a controllers main job of working planes. ORD does what's referred to as "pre-arranged coordination" which pretty much means that any controller can use anyone else's airspace, without individual coordination...you just need to get in AND out of the other guys airspace without disrupting any of his traffic.

Quoting apodino (Reply 44):
That is how BOS does it

You can't compare procedures between airports with vastly different volumes of traffic or complexity of airspace. I doubt things have changed much since I left but if ORD is now running permanent triple arrival runways, all the arrival fixes probably stay pretty heavy and there are very few gaps for departure to coordinate a climb in. Departure control still has the option of climbing into arrival airspace with the intent of topping the arrival instead of tunneling out but he needs to be absolutely certain that the departure has the performance to climb fast enough to do it. Int'l heavies or MD80s normally don't get considered as climbing candidates when performance is required. 757s always do! FYI...on an east flow, the eastbound departures will pretty much have a free climb between 5-10 miles from the airport.

Quoting apodino (Reply 44):
Will they implement RNAV departures

Not in a million years. RNAV departures may look 'neat and clean' on paper but they're not. I've worked at two different RNAV only airports as well as ORD and they're not even in the same ballpark for departure efficiency. With RNAV departures, working around thunderstorms is next to impossible. There are no 'turn and climbs' to top arrivals if there is a gap....everyone flies the SID whether there's traffic or not. If departures are allowed to climb off the ground, you make a lot of arrival airspace unusable and that takes away the flexibility to move arrivals to different runways or work around weather. With ORD's radar vector SID, the tower controllers have an infinite number of available headings to issue as long as they avoid the descent areas for the arrivals. With RNAV departures, all the headings are pre-determined so there's no flexibility. When there is a runway change, then all the SIDS need to be changed and the pilots must load the new route before taking off. At ORD the only thing that gets changed is the departure heading assigned with the take-off clearance.

Quoting apodino (Reply 44):
you have altitude caps built in

...unless the aircraft isn't capable of making the crossing altitude due to any number of performance/weight issues.
 
apodino
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RE: ORD Runway Configuration

Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:11 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 48):
With RNAV departures, working around thunderstorms is next to impossible.

Then how do DFW and ATL do it? DFW is an airport that is far more affected by Thunderstorms than ORD, and this doesn't seem to be a problem there, and operationally speaking its going to be very close to what ORD is going to be in the future.. Same with ATL, and ATL handles almost as many AC movements as ORD. Not only that, but assuming that thunderstorms are an issue, the Air Traffic Controller as I understand it still has the ability to take an airplane off of a SID to radar vector him if needed to get around weather. Plus all the airports have Non-RNAV departures they can issue in lieu of an RNAV if this is operationally needed and radar vector them that way until clear, then put them back on the departure fix. ORD is going to have be redesigned in the future, because you aren't going to have 32L soon, and I suspect 22L isn't going to be viable for departures often when 28L opens. So what is going to have to happen is you are going to need somewhat straight out departures for both 28R and 27L because you now have to worry about avoiding two missed approach areas on departure, so I suspect that in the future departures are going to have to climb out west further before they can turn back east. This should help with arrival runway utilization as well, and if it works the way it does in other facilities (DFW, ATL, and CLT), you could be handed off to Center a lot sooner, and it will help with the tunnelling issue, that from the sounds of things was caused more by crossing runways than anything.

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 48):
With ORD's radar vector SID, the tower controllers have an infinite number of available headings to issue as long as they avoid the descent areas for the arrivals.

Again, with the need of departures to avoid the missed approach areas for two different runways in the future, how much longer will this be true?

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 48):
When there is a runway change, then all the SIDS need to be changed and the pilots must load the new route before taking off.

This may be true, but given the runway layout of ORD in the future, this won't be an issue as the pilots would have plenty of time while taxiing to a new runway to reprogram the FMS. Not only that, but the FMS always gets reprogrammed on a runway change regardless of if the departure sid is RNAV or not.

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 48):

...unless the aircraft isn't capable of making the crossing altitude due to any number of performance/weight issues.

And the plate will tell the pilots exactly what they need to be doing in order to make these restrictions, so if the pilots are reading their plates correctly, they should know about this prior to takeoff and should be in a position to advise ATC if unable.

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