Cubsrule
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RE: Delta Announces Love Field Expansion Plans

Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:16 pm

Quoting adtall (Reply 199):
If WN so chose, they can (not will or should, can) move everything to DFW and fly whatever to their heart's content. DL and VX do not have the same ability to choose with respect to DAL.

That's the counterargument, but I don't know that it's true. I don't think WN could profitably fly 800 daily seats on DFW-LBB.
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adtall
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RE: Delta Announces Love Field Expansion Plans

Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:31 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 200):
That's the counterargument, but I don't know that it's true. I don't think WN could profitably fly 800 daily seats on DFW-LBB.

That may be, but WN probably isn't going to fly 800 seats to LBB anyways after October due to Wright distortion. Bigger picture, that would tend to argue a lack of supply at DAL for seats which WN again agreed to, and argues for DAL as a premium restricted airport to be considered separately if DFW is not an adequate substitute. Neither the DOT nor the DOJ look kindly on increasing monopolies (or an overwhelming market share) in such airports and favor new entrants. All the arguments made in the past by LCCs with regards to DCA and LGA in terms of premium and preferred airports comes back to bite WN in that case.

edited for grammar

[Edited 2013-12-07 15:34:57]

[Edited 2013-12-07 15:37:29]
 
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Revelation
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RE: Delta Announces Love Field Expansion Plans

Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:53 am

Quoting seatback (Thread starter):
Delta Announces Love Field Expansion Plans

Heh, heh, heh... 200+ posts for something DL can't even do unless they get a very unlikely government ruling? I hereby declare that Revelation Airlines will be starting service from Love Field!  
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blueflyer
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RE: Delta Announces Love Field Expansion Plans

Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:53 am

Quoting SWADawg (Reply 197):
I think the biggest argument that WN has is that they can't just get more gates at DFW without giving up the same number of gates at DAL.

I don't buy it and I hope the DOJ won't buy it either. Southwest can bring competition to DFW anytime they want as long as they're willing to allow competition at DAL, something the acquisition of AirTran and their dragging of their feet to leave DFW showed they are clearly loathe to allow.

Southwest has twice as many gates at DAL than Delta and Virgin combined have at DFW. If DAL and DFW are a single market, then Delta and Virgin should get more gates before Southwest does.
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usflyguy
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RE: Delta Announces Love Field Expansion Plans

Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:08 am

Quoting AirAfreak (Reply 196):
Blah, Blah, Blah... let's forget politics and talk about amenities: How are the airport amenities/concessions? Any recommended restaurants at the airport? Do you think a SkyClub could open? Let's talk about Dallas Love Field for the connecting passenger. Any insight?

DAL has a brand new terminal (paid for by WN that is still under construction) with great restaurants and concessions.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 203):
Southwest has twice as many gates at DAL than Delta and Virgin combined have at DFW. If DAL and DFW are a single market, then Delta and Virgin should get more gates before Southwest does.

and DL should be required to give up gates at ATL since it is gate constrained and they have over 75% of the gates there.
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
adtall
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RE: Delta Announces Love Field Expansion Plans

Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:57 am

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 204):

If you're counting E and F in DL's gate totals that would be an error. E, F, and most of the southern half of D are CUTE, with preferential for int'l on E and F and I believe preferential use for DL on half of E and half of F, WN/FL might also have some preferential rights on the southern half of D. Point being, there are lots of gates around at ATL outside the evening int'l rush.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Delta Announces Love Field Expansion Plans

Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:17 am

Quoting adtall (Reply 201):
Bigger picture, that would tend to argue a lack of supply at DAL for seats which WN again agreed to, and argues for DAL as a premium restricted airport to be considered separately if DFW is not an adequate substitute.

No, it argues for AA having a different (anti)competitive response to WN at DAL and at DFW. AA doesn't match WN fares ex-DAL (a walkup DAL-LBB r/t for the day on Monday is $396 all in; AA's lowest refundable fare is $696 all in).
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SurfandSnow
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RE: Delta Announces Love Field Expansion Plans

Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:24 am

I really wonder about DL and DAL. They added CRJ-200 ATL-DAL service back in 2000, but cut the flights in 2003 to focus on DFW. Of course, at that time DL still had a DFW hub. However, if DL had kept the DAL flights running for just a few more years, they would have been in the exact same position as CO. One can only assume DL would have also received 2 DAL gates with the Wright Amendment repeal settlement agreement.

In 2009, several years after completely de-hubbing DFW, DL resumed DAL service. I'm guessing the flights haven't done terrible, or else they would have been cut by now, but I find it surprising that these flights would be profitable when those in the pre-recession era of cheap gas and DFW hub loyalty obviously weren't. I can't help but think that DL has been running these flights at a loss, hoping to gain DAL gates through squatter status - hey government, we've been here for 5 years and clearly want to be here more than AA does, it's not fair to kick us out after all this time, we should get gates (AA's, or otherwise).

In any case, I don't understand why DL wants to run a split operation between DAL and DFW. DFW isn't JFK or IAD, it's actually quite convenient and generally preferred by the majority of O&D travelers. DFW is similar to IAH, though. DL (and F9) tried to move IAH flights to HOU, but for whatever reasons quickly transferred everything back to IAH. I should think any DL efforts to move capacity from DFW to DAL would have a similar outcome. Assuming at least some of the new DAL service would come at the expense of existing DFW flights, I just don't see this DAL-ATL/DTW/LAX/LGA/MSP scenario working out alongside DL DFW services. Consolidating all of DL's Dallas service at DAL wouldn't be an option with only 2 gates.

Ultimately, I could see DAL working out well for B6 or VX. Either carrier could target the downtown Dallas yuppie crowd and easily consolidate all of their Dallas service into 2 DAL gates. I don't think F9 will try for DAL given the whole HOU fiasco, and NK will have to stick with DFW since it flies internationally.

It will be interesting to see what UA does at DAL. They have farmed out most of their DFW service to regional partners, and don't seem to care about frequency even on business routes like ORD/LAX-DFW. DAL-IAH alone will probably take one gate, and they could easily tie up the other one with just DEN and ORD services. Alternatively, they could run low frequency 1-2x dailies each to DEN and ORD as well as EWR, LAX, SFO, and maybe IAD, but like DL, I find it hard to believe that an operation split between DAL and DFW will be sustainable for UA. Consolidation of all UA Dallas service at DAL will not be an option with only two gates. However, what if they try and get 2 more, arguing that with 4 gates they could best compete against WN?

Obviously DL and WN want the DAL gates. VX has been rumored, and I certainly think B6 will try for them too. I wonder if UA or anybody else will be interested?
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Cubsrule
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RE: Delta Announces Love Field Expansion Plans

Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:35 am

Quoting surfandsnow (Reply 207):
In any case, I don't understand why DL wants to run a split operation between DAL and DFW. DFW isn't JFK or IAD, it's actually quite convenient and generally preferred by the majority of O&D travelers. DFW is similar to IAH, though. DL (and F9) tried to move IAH flights to HOU, but for whatever reasons quickly transferred everything back to IAH. I should think any DL efforts to move capacity from DFW to DAL would have a similar outcome. Assuming at least some of the new DAL service would come at the expense of existing DFW flights, I just don't see this DAL-ATL/DTW/LAX/LGA/MSP scenario working out alongside DL DFW services. Consolidating all of DL's Dallas service at DAL wouldn't be an option with only 2 gates.

The sheer size of ATL allows success at secondary airports. DL is the only legacy at MDW and HOU and actually runs mainline to both places from ATL (and on MDW-MSP).
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
LoneStarMike
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RE: Delta Announces Love Field Expansion Plans

Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:16 am

Quoting surfandsnow (Reply 207):
I really wonder about DL and DAL. They added CRJ-200 ATL-DAL service back in 2000, but cut the flights in 2003 to focus on DFW. Of course, at that time DL still had a DFW hub. However, if DL had kept the DAL flights running for just a few more years, they would have been in the exact same position as CO. One can only assume DL would have also received 2 DAL gates with the Wright Amendment repeal settlement agreement.

There's one big difference when comparing CO & DL at Love Field, though. CO always had a preferential-use lease on it's two gates from the time they moved to DFW in 1974 through today. Even when the gates were not in use, CO has held the lease. Delta has always subleased it's gates from other carriers - first from Legend in the old Legend Terminal when they returned to Love Field in 2000 and later from AA in the main terminal.

LoneStarMike
 
adtall
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RE: Delta Announces Love Field Expansion Plans

Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:17 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 206):
No, it argues for AA having a different (anti)competitive response to WN at DAL and at DFW. AA doesn't match WN fares ex-DAL (a walkup DAL-LBB r/t for the day on Monday is $396 all in; AA's lowest refundable fare is $696 all in).

Using Friday the 13th I think would be a better comparison since AA doesn't have it's full schedule running from the ice storm and it's still within 7 days. On that day, AA is $496 refundable while WN is still $396. WN's clearly the market share leader with AA running three ER4s and 2 MD80s vs. WN's 6 737s and a 76.3% share for WN on the Dallas-Lubbock route. In fact, for all Wright-allowed nonstop routes that BTS includes in the top 1000 routes for June (19 routes), WN is the market share leader in all except Dallas-CRP (no WN nonstops), Dallas-MFE (no WN nonstops), and Dallas-JAN (no WN nonstops), and only leads by less than 10% in Dallas-STL (understandable given the former AA hub) and Dallas-ABQ. If DAL and DFW are substitutes, WN shouldn't have much issue at all continuing to dominate these routes if they hypothetically moved, with their low fares and their dominance of share. AA would undoubtedly match fares, but I doubt they would overtake WN. Again, DAL is clearly a preferred airport for these city pairs, undoubtedly due to WN, but AA not price-matching and the large market-share gap speaks to the airports perhaps not being good substitutes on these routes (obviously AA could be aiming more for connecting traffic, but that much of a disparity is hard to explain that way). Outside the Wright zone, that'll have to wait until October, but those numbers will be interesting.



[Edited 2013-12-07 22:07:55]
 
cjpark
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RE: Delta Announces Love Field Expansion Plans

Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:21 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 203):
I don't buy it and I hope the DOJ won't buy it either. Southwest can bring competition to DFW anytime they want as long as they're willing to allow competition at DAL, something the acquisition of AirTran and their dragging of their feet to leave DFW showed they are clearly loathe to allow.Southwest has twice as many gates at DAL than Delta and Virgin combined have at DFW. If DAL and DFW are a single market, then Delta and Virgin should get more gates before Southwest does.

Southwest has 96.4% of the passenger share at Love Field compared to the 82.1% AA has at DFW. Two additional gates would allow WN to completely monopolize the airport. If WN gets the additional gates so much for the DOJ’s much vaunted concern for competition. In fact no other airline in the country but WN has any major market airport with more than 90% of passenger share and they have three DAL, MDW and HOU.

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 204):
DAL has a brand new terminal (paid for by WN that is still under construction) with great restaurants and concessions.
WN and the City of Dallas are paying for the airport upgrades.

[Edited 2013-12-08 11:04:48]
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
usflyguy
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RE: Delta Announces Love Field Expansion Plans

Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:56 pm

Quoting cjpark (Reply 211):
In fact no other airline in the country but WN has any major airport with more than 90% of passenger share and they have three DAL, MDW and HOU.


Wrong...
1. At IAH, UA has 90.1% market share.

Beside, all 3 of those are secondary airports behind DFW, ORD, and IAH. Include the WN numbers in the market as a whole and take an honest look at it.


But, let's take a look at cities with only 1 airport, meaning there is no other competition in the market...

ATL -- DL 70%
CLT -- AA/US 91.8%
DTW -- DL 80%
MIA -- AA/US 70%
MSP -- DL 75%
PHL -- AA/US 74%
SLC -- DL 75%
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Delta Announces Love Field Expansion Plans

Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:14 pm

Quoting adtall (Reply 210):
Again, DAL is clearly a preferred airport for these city pairs, undoubtedly due to WN, but AA not price-matching and the large market-share gap speaks to the airports perhaps not being good substitutes on these routes

Is it a preference for DAL or a preference for WN? On short routes with a lot of ERJs and M80s, AA's product isn't particularly good.
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par13del
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RE: Delta Announces Love Field Expansion Plans

Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:32 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 187):
I think Delta has an edge but southwest is so good at the politics side.
Quoting adtall (Reply 210):
f DAL and DFW are substitutes, WN shouldn't have much issue at all continuing to dominate these routes if they hypothetically moved, with their low fares and their dominance of share.

So the cost factors at DAL and DWF have minimal effect on the prices charged by AA and WN?? I don't think so.

Quoting cjpark (Reply 211):
In fact no other airline in the country but WN has any major market airport with more than 90% of passenger share and they have three DAL, MDW and HOU.

The question then is what un-competitive practices did WN and the City of Dallas engage in or collude to prevent other carriers from operating at DAL, anyone not knowing the history would not give this a second thought.

WN chose to stay at DAL under the restrictions of the WA and made a go of it, however, such will be meaningless to those just looking at the numbers going forward once the WA is done, all you will hear is how many of the total gates one airline has.
I totally expect the cities of DAL anfd DFW to do everything legally as the originators of the current agreement to hang WN out to dry.
 
cjpark
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RE: Delta Announces Love Field Expansion Plans

Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:58 pm

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 212):
Wrong...1. At IAH, UA has 90.1% market share.

Beside, all 3 of those are secondary airports behind DFW, ORD, and IAH. Include the WN numbers in the market as a whole and take an honest look at it.But, let's take a look at cities with only 1 airport, meaning there is no other competition in the market...
ATL -- DL 70%
CLT -- AA/US 91.8%
DTW -- DL 80%
MIA -- AA/US 70%
MSP -- DL 75%
PHL -- AA/US 74%
SLC -- DL 75%

The figures provided by the DMN show UA at IAH at 85%.

The DOJ did not specify markets only the airports that AA/US had to give up slots. With the exception of WN at FLL instead of MIA WN is well respresented at the airports you cite.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5332
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RE: Delta Announces Love Field Expansion Plans

Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:12 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 198):

This, combined with the idea of treating the Metroplex as a single market, is WN's potentially winning argument, I think. DL could add whatever capacity they want to add to DAL tomorrow at DFW if they wanted to do so. WN can't.

wait....WN can expand at IAD/BWI all they want. JFK all the want. Clearly Southwest shouldn't be getting any LGA/EWR/DCA slots then right?

Same argument. JFK has plenty of slots (minus peak international times) and IAD has plenty of space. Its the same market........

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 204):

and DL should be required to give up gates at ATL since it is gate constrained and they have over 75% of the gates there.


that's completely false. Thanks to WN cut backs the city has space on D for other carriers. Also, once the master plan is updated its expected a plan for more gates will be added. (and plenty of space on E/F outside of peak international times)

But your basically saying Delta should be allowed to take all the gates in Atlanta minus 10% of the gates right?

and in all honest I believe if the City/Delta did that all the WN lovers would be kicking and screaming. They have been using this same bull crap argument to force airlines like Delta, American and United to give up space at airports........yet Southwest should able to grow and grow and grow.  


having said that, with this DOJ....wouldn't shock me at all to see them give WN the gates...
 
LoneStarMike
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RE: Delta Announces Love Field Expansion Plans

Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:28 pm

Quoting cjpark (Reply 211):
Southwest has 96.4% of the passenger share at Love Field

That's because they use their gates more efficiently and provide the service with mainline jets (despite the restrictions.) The other carriers at Love Field are free to do the same. The fact that they don't isn't Southwest's fault.

Also with regards to percentage of gates controlled at DAL and HOU:

Quoting cjpark (Reply 181):
Interesting Article concerning Delta's ambition with DAL.

The graphic not shown on the online version shows that only WN is the only US airline that control more than 90% of the available flights and gates at their three hub airports DAL, HOU and MDW.

http://www.dallasnews.com/business/c...s.ece

The Dallas Morning News is wrong. At Love Field Southwest is only using 15 gates right now - 12 in the new terminal and three in the old west concourse. That's 75% of the available gates. At HOU, WN/FL control 18 of 24 gates. That's 80%. Not "more than 90% of the available gates" as the Dallas Morning News claims.

LoneStarMike
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 13866
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RE: Delta Announces Love Field Expansion Plans

Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:56 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 216):
wait....WN can expand at IAD/BWI all they want. JFK all the want. Clearly Southwest shouldn't be getting any LGA/EWR/DCA slots then right?

You are conflating two different questions--whether divestment is necessary and to whom necessary divestment occurs. Forcing AA to divest at DAL necessarily means that DoJ has decided that DAL/DFW are substitutable. Thus, WN's position in the Metroplex writ large should arguably be the relevant question to whether they are entitled to DAL assets.

In NYC and WAS, DOJ has judged that the airports are NOT substitutable, thus the demand that AA and US divest even though neither is especially large in the markets at large.

I don't necessarily buy this dichotomy, but then again I don't think AA should have to divest at DAL, as I think they should be treated as separate airports/markets just like DCA/BWI/IAD and JFK/LGA/EWR. But I'm not the decider, and the government disagrees with me.
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alfa164
Posts: 2912
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RE: Delta Announces Love Field Expansion Plans

Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:34 am

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 217):
The Dallas Morning News is wrong. At Love Field Southwest is only using 15 gates right now - 12 in the new terminal and three in the old west concourse. That's 75% of the available gates. At HOU, WN/FL control 18 of 24 gates. That's 80%. Not "more than 90% of the available gates" as the Dallas Morning News claims.

Disregarding how many gates WN is "only using...now", how man gates total are there available (or going to be available, if construction and/or remodeling is still going on) that are assigned to WN, and how many are assigned to other airlines?
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Cubsrule
Posts: 13866
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Delta Announces Love Field Expansion Plans

Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:37 am

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 219):
Disregarding how many gates WN is "only using...now", how man gates total are there available (or going to be available, if construction and/or remodeling is still going on) that are assigned to WN, and how many are assigned to other airlines?

Putting aside the divestment, when new DAL is complete, WN will use 16 of 20 gates.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5332
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: Delta Announces Love Field Expansion Plans

Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:45 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 220):

and just to add, United will have two of he four and it looks like DL or WN will have the other two. (I believe they are the only ones who have expressed interest.)
 
usflyguy
Posts: 1724
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:29 am

RE: Delta Announces Love Field Expansion Plans

Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:18 am

Quoting cjpark (Reply 215):
The figures provided by the DMN show UA at IAH at 85%.

The DOJ did not specify markets only the airports that AA/US had to give up slots. With the exception of WN at FLL instead of MIA WN is well respresented at the airports you cite.

Oh, I did my own research. http://www.fly2houston.com/TrafficStats

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 216):
that's completely false. Thanks to WN cut backs the city has space on D for other carriers. Also, once the master plan is updated its expected a plan for more gates will be added.

Actually, aren't gates being repainted and some taken out of service since WN uses larger aircraft that can not park at gates that are squeezed to only fit 717's and regional jets?

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 219):
Disregarding how many gates WN is "only using...now", how man gates total are there available (or going to be available, if construction and/or remodeling is still going on) that are assigned to WN, and how many are assigned to other airlines?

WN will have 16, other airlines will have 4. 16 of 20 is 80% of the gates.
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
LoneStarMike
Posts: 2804
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2000 1:02 pm

RE: Delta Announces Love Field Expansion Plans

Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:38 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 214):
The question then is what un-competitive practices did WN and the City of Dallas engage in or collude to prevent other carriers from operating at DAL,

That question should actually be rephrased as what un-competitive practices did WN. AA, DFW Airport, the City of Fort Worth and the City of Dallas engage in or collude to prevent other carriers from operating at DAL, since all 5 parties had to agree to this.

LoneStarMike

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