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Indy
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:03 am

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 47):
Huh?

Fact is these were used in airports in Europe before 9/11 so before TSA existed. As I transited thos - I always thought how much better they were than "freddy the sleeping guard" in the US.

Initial story refers to them as a terminal exit which is bad. Using them in place of a security guard at the secure area exit really isn't good either. It may be ok at a small airport with very light traffic but I can't see it working very well in a busy airport like MCO where you have a flood of people leaving the secured area. It is still a big bottleneck. We are all paying for the security so lets stick with what works. Keep a security guard at the exit of the air side and let the passenger flow continue. I can only imagine this disaster at a place like MCO.
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slowrambler
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:03 am

Just a couple of days ago I was using a one-way door in GVA and thinking how obvious it would be to put such things in US airports. (I've also seen them in BRU.) Those are set up so that you basically don't need to break stride when going through. Perhaps the specific doors at SYR aren't quite set up right, but the idea is quite sensible. Personally I prefer that system to having some utterly bored guard staring at me as I go through.
 
flybyguy
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:11 am

Quoting flyingcaT (Reply 6):
Detention pods however is considerable overkill, I wonder how the tin foil hat crow would react to a phone booth.

The news segment DID say it would lock in someone who attempted to re-enter the sterile area... presumably so they can be arrested, tried and convicted of terrorist action.


I'm not sure if this multi-million dollar, over-glorified revolving door is the best solution anyway. Are the doors hooked up to a reliable power system? Can they be opened during an emergency? The delay to open the secondary doors after the first ones close makes me very uneasy.
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Indy
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:24 am

Granted this is extremely ugly but some variation of revolving door like this could be used.

http://cdn4.vtourist.com/4/1017244-T..._BORDER_CROSSING_POINT_Tijuana.jpg

Heck for that matter just use a standard revolving door with a sensor that stops it from revolving further if the chamber is still occupied. Not complicated and it keeps the flow of traffic going. And it doesn't make people feel like prisoners in a chamber. You just push through and keep going. Just like any other revolving door you've ever used. You just cannot keep going around and come back in.
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ikramerica
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:53 am

Hooplah!!!

Its a modern form of the rotating metal grates at theme parks, sports stadiums, ny subways, etc.

Now a more advanced form than this was used by Washington Mutual bank. One going in, one going out. If you had a gun they could trap you on the way in. If you tried to rob the bank they could trap you on the way out. At first I hated them until I realized they made banking friendlier. Once inside, the tellers weren't in cages or behind bullet proof plastic.

When Chase took over WaMu, they took out the portals and put up the bullet proof glass...  
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fpetrutiu
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:04 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 30):
If the alarm allows both doors to open at once, then there might be a way to hotwire it without the alarm actually sounding. It would take an inside job, but such things have happened before. And since the whole point is that the exit would be unguarded, then whoever is holding the "garage door opener" could get through undetected. If the solution is to guard the exit, then why have the expensive doors?

My sole issue is that these things look expensive and they have lots of electronic controls and moving parts to malfunction (I wonder how many people will get stuck in them when the exit doors fail to open). Now if they are actually going to save taxpayer money, then I'm all for them. But I see them not being as effective as envisioned and I see a significantly cheaper and time-tested alternative.

These types of doors have been proven effective and low maintenance at thousands of banks, airports, and other secure locations and the mechanism of action is fairly simple with very low failure rates. My bet is that it will save TSA about 90,000 to 180,000 per year (depending if it took 1 or 2 TSA agents at a time to guard the entrance). This is bare minimums estimate at 30k/year/TSA Agent not including benefits and pay over $30,000/year. So if the door costs $10,000 to install and another $5000/year to maintain, it is well worth the investment.
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tockeyhockey
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:24 am

curious -- how would these pods have held up if they were installed at LAX when the shooter came in?
 
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lightsaber
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:23 am

These are a much nicer version of the 'man traps' at many factories and other controlled access work sites.

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 55):
These types of doors have been proven effective and low maintenance at thousands of banks,

   Man traps are an old technology. Usually put in at sites to control quick shift changes that require controlled access. This isn't anything new. The only issue is that will be John Q. Public who gets trapped rather than someone who goes through daily and knows that periodically the alarms will trigger and trap someone who shouldn't be. So there will be some drama, but not a big deal.

Lightsaber
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L-188
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:32 am

I first read about these things going in and I started to think about that concert scene from the movie, "This is Spinal Tap" where their base player gets trapped in the "pod" during a performance and during the whole time this poor roadie has to try and pry him out.....

Just makes it as the song ends and then was supposed to get back in the pod as it closes. He makes it sans his arm.
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twincessna340a
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:53 am

Have been installed at LAS since at least Nov 1: http://www.prweb.com/releases/Kaba-E...McCarran-Airport/prweb11291596.htm

Here is the product website: http://www.kaba-ilco.com/kaba-access...0468/exit-lane-breach-control.html

LEX has had a TSA monitor-less exit for years.....with a giant glass automatic motorized revolving door at its centerpiece, with traditional doors to the side.....can't find a picture or remember the specifics of how it stops reverse flow.
 
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DL747400
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:49 am

Yawn. Much to-do about nothing.

DFW has been using a less high tech version of these for more than 20 years.
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FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:22 pm

Quoting flybyguy (Reply 52):
I'm not sure if this multi-million dollar, over-glorified revolving door is the best solution anyway.

You seriously think a system like this costs that much?

Quoting flybyguy (Reply 52):
Are the doors hooked up to a reliable power system?

That should go without saying.

Quoting flybyguy (Reply 52):
Can they be opened during an emergency?

It would be against at leastthe fire code, among other things if they couldn't..

Quoting flybyguy (Reply 52):
The delay to open the secondary doors after the first ones close makes me very uneasy.

That's the point of the entire design.
What gets measured gets done.
 
b727
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:39 pm

As far as Energy, they do not open to outside. They are in the hallway aon the way to bagage claim.


B727
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varigb707
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:31 pm

Quoting rmoore7734 (Thread starter):

Perhaps not near as bad as the TSA loudspeakers that threaten travelers with arrest for making jokes about security -------------------> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkWPM...LSk6M

I disagree with the above "threat" from TSA, in the grounds that infringes on my freedom of speech. Not that I make any sort of joke,remarks, statements, etc about TSA while I'm walking through security. I usually say hello and do answer any questions, if asked any.
BE that as it may.

The security doors at SYR are ok by me. It will save money and it sure does the job: prevent from anyone, unauthorized, to walk into the security area. It is not a "detention pod" as suggested on this threads title.

PEace
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RussianJet
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:47 pm

Quoting varigb707 (Reply 63):
Not that I make any sort of joke,remarks, statements, etc about TSA while I'm walking through security.

The thing is though (and I'm not ardent fan of the TSA) that unfortunately a minority people do make inappropriate 'jokes' and remarks when going through security screening. Is this your fault or mine? No. However, it's really fairly common and does actually put staff in a difficult situation, and also potentially has an impact on other travellers. While it's a shame that such reminders should be necessary, there are a significant number of idiots out there who do make it a necessity. If it helps reduce such instances, fair enough I say.

As for the 'detention pods' well, now we've established that they're actually nothing of the sort, I have nothing to say about that.
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dlflynhayn
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:55 pm

I know this is not in America but I like AMS security set up at the gate..
 
ckfred
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:14 pm

It seems to me that this system wouldn't be practical at a large airport, like ORD, ATL, LAX, JFK, LGA, DFW, and MIA, where a concourse can have a steady stream of people making their way out of a councourse into non-secured areas.

Second, what happens if there is a need for a quick evacuation of a concourse, such as a fire or security threat?

Third, how much space is there in the "pod"? I could see a bunch of college students at spring break trying to jam an entire party in one pod and getting stuck. Or a family with several small children.

I understand that this system is far more effective than having one or two TSA screeners sitting at an exit. At ORD, I once saw a screener who was very, very heavy. I doubt he could get out of his seat and chase down someone who went the wrong way through an exit.

In fact, it was probably 10 years ago, but someone went out an exit at ORD, then darted back in, saying he left his glasses on the plane. IIRC, they evacuated Terminal 1, looking for the person who re-entered through the exit. They never found him.
 
MSPNWA
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:18 pm

After seeing this on the news, I want no part of them. I'm tired of feeling like a caged animal when flying. Let me exit the secure area with no obstruction in my way.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:10 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 67):
Let me exit the secure area with no obstruction in my way.

Will you be writing the check necessary to facilitate that?
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rmoore7734
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:32 pm

Update

From the company that makes these devices includes biometric and object-detecting capabilities.
Not saying they are using the biometrics in SYR but potential is there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1G3nY7XopI
 
Mir
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:37 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 68):
Will you be writing the check necessary to facilitate that?

Is there a check necessary? I can't see how these are that much more cost-effective than one TSA agent sitting by the exit. After all, they're so slow that you're going to have to have lots of them in order to provide appropriate throughput, and that bumps the cost up.

-Mir
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Cubsrule
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:10 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 70):
I can't see how these are that much more cost-effective than one TSA agent sitting by the exit.

It depends on the airport and the exit. These are probably not appropriate for high throughput exits, but there are all sorts of other setups that are and still save manpower. And at most airports with KCM, at least one exit will have to be manned.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
rcair1
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:30 pm

Quoting rmoore7734 (Reply 69):
From the company that makes these devices includes biometric and object-detecting capabilities.
Not saying they are using the biometrics in SYR but potential is there.

Why would they do this on the way OUT?

In fact, I would venture a statement that scanning/searching (particularly without notice) on the way out of a secure area could be considered a violation of us law regarding unreasonable search and seizure.

Bob

[Edited 2013-11-19 12:32:11]
rcair1
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:45 pm

Quoting rmoore7734 (Reply 69):

From the company that makes these devices includes biometric and object-detecting capabilities.
Not saying they are using the biometrics in SYR but potential is there.

You are so ridiculous. Watching that for all of 10 seconds tells anyone with half sense this is a feature to their product which is not necessarily and irrelevant in the application at hand. Rational and critical thinking: nonexistent.
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aklrno
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:47 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 70):
Is there a check necessary? I can't see how these are that much more cost-effective than one TSA agent sitting by the exit. After all, they're so slow that you're going to have to have lots of them in order to provide appropriate throughput, and that bumps the cost up.

Let's do a quick back of the envelope calculation of the cost for that one person.

Let's say he is making $10 per hour. That may be low. That's about $20,000 year full time. But there are employment taxes, benefits and training, so the total cost is probably closer to $40,000 per year. But that covers 8 hours/day, 5 days per week, 50 weeks per year, holidays off. To fully staff that spot for 20 hours per day (thats 365 days x 20 hours or 7300 hours per year) you will need to have about 5 persons per occupied chair. That's a conservative number to handle basic hours plus breaks and occasional sick leave.

Sounds to me like $200,000 per year. If you can get a gate installed for $20,000 you could pay off a bank of 10 in just one year. Can someone come up with the average installed cost per exit gate? I'm just guessing.
 
srbmod
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:15 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 66):
It seems to me that this system wouldn't be practical at a large airport, like ORD, ATL, LAX, JFK, LGA, DFW, and MIA, where a concourse can have a steady stream of people making their way out of a councourse into non-secured areas.

It might be impossible at ATL due to the design of the airport. When you get off of the Plane Train at Ground Transportation and go up the escalators, you're right in the middle of the terminal building and no way to have such portals without backing up the escalators. It might be doable for the exits off of the T-Gates (Haven't been over to F yet, so I can't comment on them.).

Such doors like these would have prevented the security breach back in November of 2001 when a guy ran down those escalators as he had exited the sterile area to retrieve an item and felt that since he had already cleared security once, he didn't need to stand in line again and risk missing his flight.

LAS already has such a system installed at Terminal 3 as it was designed for the building and has gotten the approval from the TSA to install them in locations within Terminal 1.

http://www.vegasinc.com/news/2013/no..._ga=1.27839033.40022107.1380929954
 
Indy
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:21 pm

Quoting aklrno (Reply 74):
Let's say he is making $10 per hour. That may be low. That's about $20,000 year full time. But there are employment taxes, benefits and training, so the total cost is probably closer to $40,000 per year.

I think going with a final cost of double the initial salary is a very high guess. But even if that were true where would be many costs associated with the pods. There is the material cost of the door. There is the installation cost. Now you have to pay for power to them as well. They also have to be hooked up to emergency systems so the doors will open in the event of fire or other emergencies. They still have to be monitored for proper operation. Somebody has to make sure they are functioning properly at all times. And just because someone isn't physically standing at the pods security will still monitor the area. The area isn't going to go unsupervised. Who is going to pay for maintenance if/when one of these things breaks.

Here is something else people likely haven't considered. Most airports don't exactly have a wide exit area from air side. That means you get maybe 2 or 3 pods wide at best. It isn't realistic to put a heavy traffic flow through 3 pods. One security guard may not be the cheapest way to go but it is the most efficient.
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MSPNWA
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:18 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 68):
Will you be writing the check necessary to facilitate that?

I already pay for the TSA agent to sit at the exit. I'll gladly keep paying that to maintain an efficient, free-feeling exit.
 
Maverick623
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:02 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 68):

Will you be writing the check necessary to facilitate that?

So that 9/11 security fee is for...?
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srbmod
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:25 am

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 72):
Why would they do this on the way OUT?

In fact, I would venture a statement that scanning/searching (particularly without notice) on the way out of a secure area could be considered a violation of us law regarding unreasonable search and seizure.

The biometric sensor and object detection options would probably be for such units designed for airport employee access into restricted areas (Similar to how some employee access points at some airports are like the giant turnstiles you go through on some subway systems.).
 
Cubsrule
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:26 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 78):
So that 9/11 security fee is for...?

Sorry, you've lost me. The fact that a 9/11 security fee exists somehow means that we shouldn't be cost effective in our security choices?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
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rmoore7734
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:34 am

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 73):
You are so ridiculous. Watching that for all of 10 seconds tells anyone with half sense this is a feature to their product which is not necessarily and irrelevant in the application at hand. Rational and critical thinking: nonexistent.


Sure we would have heard that by now if they implemented that feature @ SYR, all I'm saying is the potential is there.
 
aklrno
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:52 am

Here's info from one manufacturer: http://www.boonedam.us/securityaccess/circlelock.asp
I think we are talking about the Circlelock 200 model.

I found a couple of other sources that are revolving doors, but the one noted above seems to be the device in question. I cannot find a price, but in volume I'd be surprised if they are much more than $20,000. There is a lot of competition from other styles. Please remember you can buy a modest new car for $20,000. This device is much simpler. A single sliding glass door (like at a small supermarket) is about $1000-$2000 before installation.

All such doors have battery backups and security alarm connection capability built in. They all have a mechanism for emergency exit. Anything less would violate fire codes. Once the fire alarm sounds you might as well let anyone go anywhere they want. The terminal needs to be cleared anyway.

The spec I saw said it would pass 5 persons/minute. That is way too slow for the busiest exits in large airports, but in regional airports where there is sufficient space for 3 or 4 across I think the capacity would be fine. In the event of total failure or super peak periods you could set them for free flow and place the TSA chair back in position.
 
ikramerica
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:06 am

Quoting aklrno (Reply 82):
The spec I saw said it would pass 5 persons/minute. That is way too slow for the busiest exits in large airports, but in regional airports where there is sufficient space for 3 or 4 across I think the capacity would be fine. In the event of total failure or super peak periods you could set them for free flow and place the TSA chair back in position.

Can children accompany parents? How many people at a time?

I think the super sized revolving doors are a better idea. They can be rigged to stop if someone stays inside past the exit or tries to enter the exit point, trapping them in until security arrives.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Maverick623
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:40 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 80):

Sorry, you've lost me. The fact that a 9/11 security fee exists somehow means that we shouldn't be cost effective in our security choices?

You asked who would pay for something that is already being paid for.

As was said before, you still have to pay someone to monitor the exits... they'll just be sitting in a different place with more expensive equipment and using more electricity to operate it.

I do find it odd that you'd pick on TSA personnel, when we've blown far more money on machines that are largely ineffective just so some bureaucrat can get his kickback and help his buddies make a few million easy dollars.

Once we get rid of that bloat, then we can seriously discuss the merits of saving a few grand a year from a billion-dollar budget.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Cubsrule
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:44 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 84):
You asked who would pay for something that is already being paid for.

Sure. But TSA has begun (or will soon begin, depending on where you are) any number of initiatives that will improve security and/or speed the screening process. More money on people sitting at the exits means less money for those initiatives, unless we increase the size of the pot.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
rwessel
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:45 am

Quoting aklrno (Reply 82):
The spec I saw said it would pass 5 persons/minute. That is way too slow for the busiest exits in large airports, but in regional airports where there is sufficient space for 3 or 4 across I think the capacity would be fine.

While I don't know if such a mode is supported or planned for these installations, at busy times you could just open both doors and post a guard to catch people trying to reenter the sterile area (IOW, just like is done currently). And then at less busy times, you use the mantraps as designed, and you don't need the guard, while still allowing people to exit.

I don’t think anyone is arguing that these are the right solution for all times at all terminals.
 
ha763
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:18 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 83):
Can children accompany parents? How many people at a time?

Yes. According to the CNY Central news story below, up to 6 people can fit inside the portal at one time.

http://youtu.be/1nPcVfEaKdE
 
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United_fan
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:49 pm

I wonder how these are to go throuh pulling a suitcase?
"Suspicion is a matter of opinion"
 
starrymarkb
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:37 pm

There are similar gates in DUB but passengers don't have to stop walking. They may not be as "secure" as these but they are enough to prevent arriving passengers heading straight into the secure area or non passengers entering the gate area. There isn't room to push past the flow as each "pod" is only wide enough for single file (and of course the doors will not open to wrong way passengers)
 
ginger727
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:58 am

TSA has amended the airport security programs nationwide to require that airports assume the responsibility for guarding the checkpoint exit lanes beginning January 1, 2014. TSA says they can no longer monitor the exit lanes due to the federal budget crunch. Airports will either have to hire guards or install exit lane breech control systems with doors. Las Vegas and Seattle have had great success with their door systems, which are much more customer friendly than the ones discussed in this post. The cost of a typical single lane door system is about $140,000 so it would only take about a year or so to payback that cost versus an airport having to pay human guards.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: TSA Rolls Out ‘Detention Pods’ At Airport Terminal

Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:02 am

These doors aren't bad. They're more expensive than the ones I've entered airfields thousands of times. Those are called 'man traps' for a reason. These are effectively 'check valves' to keep people going one way.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 61):
Quoting flybyguy (Reply 52):
Are the doors hooked up to a reliable power system?

That should go without saying.

Quoting flybyguy (Reply 52):
Can they be opened during an emergency?

It would be against at leastthe fire code, among other things if they couldn't..

I'd bet that during an emergency they keep closed. They 'man trap' someone for a security reason. You wouldn't want to be able to cut power and free someone? But then again, most situations its just to prevent reverse flow of the people (there is an open portal out). These are not fire escape doors. In fact, they could be fire doors that should fail closed to prevent spread of a fire.

I once had a friend in a man-trap (seconds after me) that was caught in one due to a black-out. They had to send out technicians to disassemble the locking mechanism. I doubt these have the auto-locks I'm used to having to deal with... So I just don't see the fuss. They are a money saving measure. Two doors that are say $50k installed vs. paying 5 people that will cost easily $60k/each per year while the door might cost $5k in maintenance/electricity per year per set? Easy cost savings.

Quoting rwessel (Reply 86):
I don’t think anyone is arguing that these are the right solution for all times at all terminals.

  

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