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LAXdude1023
Topic Author
Posts: 6352
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:31 pm

Perhaps some of you can help me pick some of the year on year changes. Anyway here is the list. Its done by hub and does not include BA or :

DFW:

South America:
BOG - daily - 319
EZE - daily - 777
CCS - weekly - 757
LIM - daily - 763
GIG - 3x weekly - 763
SCL - daily - 763
GRU - daily - 77W

Asia:
NRT - 2x daily - 777
ICN - daily - 777
PVG - daily - 777 (announced-pending approval)
HKG - daily - 77W (announced)

Europe:
LHR - 3x daily - 77W/777
CDG - daily - 777
MAD - daily - 777
FRA - daily - 777

MIA:

South America:
BOG - 2x daily - 763/757
MDE - daily - 738
CLO - daily - 738
CCS - 4x daily - 757
MAR - daily - 757
GYE - 2x daily - 763/738
UIO - 2x daily - 757
LIM - 2x daily - 763/757
LPB/VVI - daily - 757
SCL - daily - 763
ASU - 4x weekly - 757
EZE - 2x daily - 777
MVD - daily - 763
MAO - daily - 738
BSB - daily - 757
CNF - daily - 763
SSA - 4x weekly - 757
REC - 6x weekly - 757
CWB/POA - daily - 763
GIG - 2x daily - 763
GRU - 4x daily - 777

Europe:
LHR - 2x daily - 77W/777
CDG - daily - 763
BCN - daily - 763
MAD - daily - 763
MXP - daily - 763

ORD:

Asia:
PEK - daily - 777
PVG - daily - 777
NRT - daily - 777

Europe:
DUS - daily - 763
LHR - 4x daily - 777/763
MAN - daily - 757
CDG - daily - 763
DUB - daily - 763
HEL - daily - 763
FCO - daily - 763

JFK:

South America:
GRU - 12x weekly - 777/77W
GIG - daily - 763
EZE - daily - 777
CCS - 5x weekly - 757

Asia:
HND - Cancelled

Europe:
BCN - daily - 763
DUB - daily - 757
LHR - 3x daily - 77W
MAD - daily - 757
MAN - daily - 757
MXP - daily - 763
CDG - 2x daily - 763/757
FCO - daily - 763
ZRH - daily - 763
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
willzzz88
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RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:10 am

So I guess flights to Central America are mid-haul flights? Can you list those from DFW?
 
B747forever
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RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:31 am

You missed a hub, LAX.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
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adamh8297
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RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:48 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Thread starter):
CCS - 5x weekly - 757

Are they limited to only 5/week per bilaterals?
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CA, CO, CX, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WE, WN
 
FSDan
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RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:48 am

I would imagine that this far in advance, there may yet be quite a few changes to this schedule. Will be interesting to see what this looks like come April.

I will say that I'm surprised the second daily DFW-NRT flight isn't being cancelled with PVG and HKG starting. That implies that the DFW-NRT local market by itself is big enough for more than one flight and/or enough people are connecting onwards to destinations other than PVG and HKG to continue to make the flight sustainable (and assumes that they will continue to connect in NRT rather than connecting in HKG). Also, if adding nonstops to PVG and HKG doesn't pull a significant number of former connecting passengers from the NRT flighs, I'm surprised there is enough of a market to make either nonstop viable in the first place. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see both PVG and HKG succeed from DFW, but there is going to have to be a crazy amount of growth over a relatively short period of time, or they will have to cut something (probably either PVG or the second NRT fligh).
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
jfk777
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RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:55 am

Where are the LAX long haul flights to NRT, PVG and LHR ?
 
LAXdude1023
Topic Author
Posts: 6352
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RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:00 am

Yes, I did forget LAX. Here it is:

South America:
GRU - daily - 777

Asia:
NRT - daily - 777
PVG - daily - 777

Europe:
LHR - daily - 777
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
mhkansan
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:02 pm

RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:28 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 6):

LAX

Europe:
LHR - daily - 777

This should be a 77W, right?

I thought DFW-GIG was daily now? Is this a seasonal change? How about the 3-4x weekly DFW-GRU extra flight on the 777?
 
kaitak744
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RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:46 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Thread starter):
JFK:
Europe:
LHR - 3x daily - 77W

This is temporary, to allow for the AA 777-200ERs to be reconfigured. The 4th daily flight is currently being flown on BA metal, and will soon return to AA metal, on a 777-300ER.
 
oc2dc
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RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:34 am

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 7):
This should be a 77W, right?

Yes, it is a 77W for LAX-LHR.


Now that the merger is in play, would you count US hubs as well?

PHL and CLT are the only hubs with long-haul. Can anybody fill in the blanks?
I'm not complaining, I'm critiquing...
 
realsim
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RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:54 am

Although I know most of you already know it, there's one long haul flight missing in that list: RDU-LHR.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:59 am

Someone keeps claiming that AA will be back to 4 daily JFK-LHR next summer. Is that true and confirmed?
 
MesaFlyGuy
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Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:36 pm

RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:05 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 11):
Someone keeps claiming that AA will be back to 4 daily JFK-LHR next summer. Is that true and confirmed?

It was said from the beginning that this will be the case.

[Edited 2013-11-19 19:06:20]
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
TXspotter
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RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:48 am

DFW to CDG, MAD is 763 not 777. I see them fly over in the late evenings
DFW to FRA i think is 763
 
LAXdude1023
Topic Author
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RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:08 am

Quoting txspotter (Reply 13):

DFW to CDG, MAD is 763 not 777. I see them fly over in the late evenings
DFW to FRA i think is 763
DFW-FRA is year round 777.

DFW-CDG and DFW-MAD are 777 for the summer. DFW-MAD on a 777 starts April 1. DFW-CDG on a 777 starts June 2.

Remember the title of the thread is Spring and Summer schedule.

[Edited 2013-11-19 20:25:50]
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
ORD2010
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RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:16 am

Can we expect any further international growth at ORD, from what I've heard AA/US isn't bringing anything to the table to ORD for 2014, given it's their second largest asia hub (used to be the largest) it would be nice to see it grow, as well as to EU and S.America
 
kaitak
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RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:34 am

For markets which don't really have F Class demand, the 763 is the biggest type it has; I'm wondering if they would consider converting some of their 772s to a two class configuration. Alternatively, once the US merger goes through, might they redeploy some US A333s to such routes.

One thing is clear; the oldest 772s are now 16yrs+ in service and the A333s, coming up to 13-14 years and of course, many of the 763s, 20+ years, so they will need to think about a significant widebody order in the near future.

Yes, there are 42 787s on order, but they will need to add to that considerably. Could the A358/9 order be replace by Airbus narrowbodies and therefore, add more 787s, or alternatively, more 332s?
 
MesaFlyGuy
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Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:36 pm

RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:53 am

Quoting kaitak (Reply 16):
I'm wondering if they would consider converting some of their 772s to a two class configuration

Starting soon, the 777s are being converted to a two-class configuration so the oldest 767s can be retired.
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
OB1504
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RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 5:25 am

Quoting FSDan (Reply 4):
I would imagine that this far in advance, there may yet be quite a few changes to this schedule. Will be interesting to see what this looks like come April.

I would agree. Last summer, I believe MIA-BOG was 4x daily, MIA-EZE was 3x daily, MIA-LPB-VVI was 2x daily, and MIA-MDE and MIA-SCL gained some additional frequencies.
 
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IrishAyes
Posts: 2449
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RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 5:29 am

Great thread. Thanks for compiling this.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Thread starter):
EZE - daily - 777

Interesting. So it appears that AA is now committed to maintaining a 777 on DFW-EZE year-round as opposed to swapping it out to a 763 during the iATA summer months. In past years, this generally coordinated with the DFW-MAD up-gauge to a 777 from a 763. That seems to be a good sign.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Thread starter):
LIM - daily - 763

Score. Not even a year in. The route is obviously performing well.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Thread starter):
GIG - 3x weekly - 763

Echoing comments from above. I thought AA had secured rights to add an additional 2w freqs. here.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Thread starter):
SCL - daily - 763

So it looks like DFWSCL will receive the 777 from early December thru late March. Not a bad start.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Thread starter):
GRU - daily - 77W

So I suppose that means that DFW-GRU will remain at daily 77W instead of the seasonal extra 3-5w frequencies flown on the 763. If so, that's a pretty big YoY dip in capacity/ASMs, but the economic environment in BRASIL has cooled, and AA may also be wanting to optimize yields in light of the new LAXGRU services. Just throwing out a guess here.

Quoting FSDan (Reply 4):
I will say that I'm surprised the second daily DFW-NRT flight isn't being cancelled with PVG and HKG starting. That implies that the DFW-NRT local market by itself is big enough for more than one flight and/or enough people are connecting onwards to destinations other than PVG and HKG to continue to make the flight sustainable (and assumes that they will continue to connect in NRT rather than connecting in HKG).

The DFW-NRT flights do not just feed onto HKG and PVG. Both AA 175/61 are timed to arrive just before some of NRT's largest departure banks to a slew of domestic connections within Japan as well as tons all over mainland China, Korea, SE Asia and beyond.

Suggesting that the two DFW-NRT links are dependent on HKG and PVG is extremely silly.

Quoting ord2010 (Reply 15):

Can we expect any further international growth at ORD, from what I've heard AA/US isn't bringing anything to the table to ORD for 2014, given it's their second largest asia hub (used to be the largest) it would be nice to see it grow, as well as to EU and S.America

Not likely in the near-term.

ORD will continue to play a valuable role in the newly merged AA hub system, but not to the extent that it will be developed into one of AA's key international gateway airports.

ORD - South America has virtually no market potential beyond GRU. When it comes to Latin America, MIA is king, followed by DFW, then NYC.

ORD - Asia plans have yielded mediocre results and will not be re-attempted. Timing was unfortunate, but it is clear that the ASIA crown will go to DFW.

ORD - Europe is the most likely to receive new int'l service, but I cannot see it being high priority. The primary TATL gateway hubs will be split between JFK and PHL.
 
boberito6589
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RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 5:36 am

Summer 2014 for US:
PHL:
AMS - 757
ATH - 332
BCN - 332
BRU - 757
CDG - 332
DUB - 332
EDI - 757
FCO - 333
FRA - 2X 332
GLA - 757
LHR - 333
LIS - 757
MAD -333
MAN - 332
MUC - 333
SNN - 757
TLV - 332
VCE - 332
ZRH - 767

CLT:
GIG - 767
GRU - 332

BCN - 332
BRU - 767
CDG - 333
DUB - 757
FCO - 333
FRA - 1x 333/1x 332
LHR - 333
LIS - 757
MAD - 767
MAN - 757
During Jun-Aug all flights are daily
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:07 am

Also missing are AA's two remaining point-to-point Europe routes, RDU-LHR daily 763 and BOS-CDG daily 757.

The long-haul schedule still has some tweaking coming up, including a new route announcement and the traditional extra Miami-LatAm frequencies that will be loaded later.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 11):
Someone keeps claiming that AA will be back to 4 daily JFK-LHR next summer. Is that true and confirmed?

If by "someone" you mean American Airlines and British Airways, yes, this is true and confirmed. BA is taking over a frequency so that AA can have 777 fleet slack and speed up conversion.

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 3):
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Thread starter):
CCS - 5x weekly - 757

Are they limited to only 5/week per bilaterals?

Technically, no. The bilateral allows more, but Venezuela-U.S. have been stagnant at approving new routes between the two countries since 2006. Hence why AA is charing $3,000+ round-trip in a market that has exploded over the past few years but no new capacity is allowed.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 16):
Alternatively, once the US merger goes through, might they redeploy some US A333s to such routes.

Hopefully not. The product is seriously lacking compared to the new AA product, despite even being virtually the same seat - it's a far less optioned version of the seat with poor padding. If I were AA, I'd be sending the US A330 fleet on mid-haul LatAm from Miami/Dallas/New York, where it's cabin configuration, cargo capabilities and product are perfectly competitive for the market (and lie-flat seats are becoming the norm in markets like MIA-LIM, MIA-GYE and MIA-BOG, where LAN and Avianca/TACA offer them).
a.
 
uberflieger
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RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:09 am

Quoting boberito6589 (Reply 20):
FRA - 1x 333/1x 332

did US fly 2xCLTFRA during summer 2013 or is this an upgauge?

American's smallish check-in area at T2 in FRA will be quite busy next summer, anybody knows when US will make the move from T1?
 
SelseyBill
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RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:32 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Thread starter):
JFK:

South America:
GRU - 12x weekly - 777/77W
GIG - daily - 763
EZE - daily - 777
CCS - 5x weekly - 757

Asia:
HND - Cancelled

Europe:
BCN - daily - 763
DUB - daily - 757
LHR - 3x daily - 77W
MAD - daily - 757
MAN - daily - 757
MXP - daily - 763
CDG - 2x daily - 763/757
FCO - daily - 763
ZRH - daily - 763

Wow, No AA flights from JFK into Asia at all. I know OW gives them CX & JAL opportunities, but that is surprising.

Is JFK-PEK a possibility for AA ?
 
cjpmaestro
Posts: 136
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RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:00 pm

Quoting boberito6589 (Reply 20):
Summer 2014 for US:
PHL:
AMS - 757
ATH - 332
BCN - 332 / AA - 767
BRU - 757
CDG - 332 / AA - 2x767/757
DUB - 332 / AA - 757
EDI - 757
FCO - 333 / AA - 763
FRA - 2X 332
GLA - 757
LHR - 333 / AA - 3x777
LIS - 757
MAD -333 / AA - 757
MAN - 332 / AA-757
MUC - 333
SNN - 757
TLV - 332
VCE - 332
ZRH - 767 / AA - 763

Interesting comparison between JFK and PHL. On these boards, you see a broad-brushed "all international will move to JFK", but could the above really all be moved to JFK? Doesn't AA at JFK have something like 94 daily departures out of JFK (I saw that on the merger website)? Is there enough O&D to move these flights and/or enough connecting through JFK to fill them?
 
jcwr56
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RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:02 pm

Quoting ord2010 (Reply 15):

Not on AA metal, you'll see JV partners adding flights long before you'll see AA adding their own. With the merger, ORD gets shifted down a few notches on hub list.

Looking at it from a outsiders point of view, AA is not the carrier it once was at ORD internationally.
 
jayunited
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RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:49 pm

Will we see AA/US shift one of the 2x daily PHL & CLT - FRA flights to over to LHR so that PHL and CLT have 2x daily PHL & CLT - LHR flights and only 1x daily flights to FRA from both PHL & CLT? And at some point with PHL-MUC flight be switch over to PHL-DUS or PHL-TXL once again leaving a Star strong hold for a One World hub?

Out of all the international flights out of PHL and CLT with US leaving Star is seems like flights to FRA would be reduced to 1x daily and flights to LHR would be increase? In my opinion the rest of US's Europe international schedule out of PHL and CLT would probably remain the same.

Any thoughts?
 
s4popo
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RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:21 pm

With all of the problems getting additional frequencies between the U.S. and Venezuela, why doesn't AA run the 767 on the MIA-CCS flight? From what I've heard, the 757's are packed and fares are high. Is it lack of spare aircraft or do they need to obtain approval from the Venezuelan authorities?
 
tope98
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RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:24 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Thread starter):
CCS - 4x daily - 757

This route has been 3x daily 757 and 1x daily 763 for a long time now.
 
LAXdude1023
Topic Author
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RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:47 pm

Let me apologize for the missing routes. I threw this thread together in 30 minutes so I know I would miss some. Let me update below:

DFW:

South America:
BOG - daily - 319
EZE - daily - 777
CCS - weekly - 757
LIM - daily - 763
GIG - 3x weekly - 763
SCL - daily - 763
GRU - daily - 77W

Asia:
NRT - 2x daily - 777
ICN - daily - 777
PVG - daily - 777 (announced-pending approval)
HKG - daily - 77W (announced)

Europe:
LHR - 3x daily - 77W/777
CDG - daily - 777
MAD - daily - 777
FRA - daily - 777

MIA:

South America:
BOG - 2x daily - 763/757
MDE - daily - 738
CLO - daily - 738
CCS - 4x daily - 757
MAR - daily - 757
GYE - 2x daily - 763/738
UIO - 2x daily - 757
LIM - 2x daily - 763/757
LPB/VVI - daily - 757
SCL - daily - 763
ASU - 4x weekly - 757
EZE - 2x daily - 777
MVD - daily - 763
MAO - daily - 738
BSB - daily - 757
CNF - daily - 763
SSA - 4x weekly - 757
REC - 6x weekly - 757
CWB/POA - daily - 763
GIG - 2x daily - 763
GRU - 4x daily - 777

Europe:
LHR - 2x daily - 77W/777
CDG - daily - 763
BCN - daily - 763
MAD - daily - 763
MXP - daily - 763

ORD:

Asia:
PEK - daily - 777
PVG - daily - 777
NRT - daily - 777

Europe:
DUS - daily - 763
LHR - 4x daily - 777/763
MAN - daily - 757
CDG - daily - 763
DUB - daily - 763
HEL - daily - 763
FCO - daily - 763

JFK:

South America:
GRU - 12x weekly - 777/77W
GIG - daily - 763
EZE - daily - 777
CCS - 5x weekly - 757

Asia:
HND - Cancelled

Europe:
BCN - daily - 763
DUB - daily - 757
LHR - 3x daily - 77W
MAD - daily - 757
MAN - daily - 757
MXP - daily - 763
CDG - 2x daily - 763/757
FCO - daily - 763
ZRH - daily - 763

LAX:

South America:
GRU - daily - 777

Asia:
NRT - daily - 777
PVG - daily - 777

Europe:
LHR - daily - 77W

BOS:

Europe:
CDG - daily - 757

RDU:

Europe:
LHR - daily - 763

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 21):
Technically, no. The bilateral allows more, but Venezuela-U.S. have been stagnant at approving new routes between the two countries since 2006. Hence why AA is charing $3,000+ round-trip in a market that has exploded over the past few years but no new capacity is allowed.

The situation is getting absurd. Its getting to the point where you need 2.5 months even to get a Y seat.

Im sure AA would love to make DFW/JFK-CCS daily and add another MIA-CCS flight. The flights never have an empty seat and go for well over 3k round trip.

Quoting cjpmaestro (Reply 24):

Interesting comparison between JFK and PHL. On these boards, you see a broad-brushed "all international will move to JFK", but could the above really all be moved to JFK? Doesn't AA at JFK have something like 94 daily departures out of JFK (I saw that on the merger website)? Is there enough O&D to move these flights and/or enough connecting through JFK to fill them?

First off, the broad brushed statements are nonsense. The only flights in question that may be moved to JFK are the ones that dont generate significant O&D from PHL. Flights that generate 40-50 PDEW or better (LHR, CDG, MAD, FRA, TLV, MAN, DUB, FCO, ATH etc.) are well and truly safe from PHL. The ones that dont (MUC, ZRH, AMS, BRU, EDI, SNN, VCE, etc.) may be moved to JFK.

Quoting irishayes (Reply 19):
Score. Not even a year in. The route is obviously performing well.

Yes. I have to admit even I was very shocked to see that DFW-LIM has been alocated a 763 on a year round basis.

Quoting irishayes (Reply 19):
Echoing comments from above. I thought AA had secured rights to add an additional 2w freqs. here.

Only during the northern winter. Not during the summer.

There was a request for DFW-Central America flights as well. Here they are:

GUA - daily - 738
SAL - 5x weekly - 738
BZE - daily - 738
RTB - weekly - 738
SJO - daily - 757
LIR - 2x weekly - 738
PTY - 3x weekly - 738
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26561
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:46 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 29):
Im sure AA would love to make DFW/JFK-CCS daily and add another MIA-CCS flight. The flights never have an empty seat and go for well over 3k round trip.

Not to mention add service to Valencia and Barcelona.

Quoting s4popo (Reply 27):
With all of the problems getting additional frequencies between the U.S. and Venezuela, why doesn't AA run the 767 on the MIA-CCS flight? From what I've heard, the 757's are packed and fares are high. Is it lack of spare aircraft or do they need to obtain approval from the Venezuelan authorities?

AA is not allowed to add seats.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 29):
Flights that generate 40-50 PDEW or better (LHR, CDG, MAD, FRA, TLV, MAN, DUB, FCO, ATH etc.)

I can't agree that ATH and TLV are safe. They draw from the New York-area. PHLTLV was less than 5 PDEW before the route started; ATH was also small.
a.
 
LAXdude1023
Topic Author
Posts: 6352
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:50 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 30):

I can't agree that ATH and TLV are safe. They draw from the New York-area. PHLTLV was less than 5 PDEW before the route started; ATH was also small.

Perhaps so about ATH.

The flip side of that coin about PHLTLV, however, is that PHL was probably bleeding everything they had to EY and UA in EWR. With the addition of the flight (which is 8x weekly now), they probably got back what they lost.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
DDR
Posts: 1738
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RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:54 pm

I am suprised that there are so few European destinations served from DFW. Has AA ever tried serving cities such as Manchester or Munich from DFW? It looks like with all the feed their mega hub provides, that they should be able to use their own metal to some additional destinations. Didn't they use to have a flight to ZRH from DFW?
 
LAXdude1023
Topic Author
Posts: 6352
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 5:12 pm

Quoting DDR (Reply 32):
I am suprised that there are so few European destinations served from DFW. Has AA ever tried serving cities such as Manchester or Munich from DFW? It looks like with all the feed their mega hub provides, that they should be able to use their own metal to some additional destinations. Didn't they use to have a flight to ZRH from DFW?

They did have a DFW-ZRH flight for years and for a time it was one of the highest yielding flights in all of AA's route network. However, once the partnership with LX went away, the flights preformance went south fast.

As for DFW's European network, they tend to serve it in bulk from DFW. You will notice DFW only has service to four cities in Europe on AA, however during the summer DFW-Europe is all 777. In the winter, there is more capacity from DFW to Europe than ORD to Europe on AA.

As for addition destinations, Im not sure that any more really need service. DFW's major O&D markets (LHR, CDG, FRA, and to a lesser degree MAD) are all served. Those are the markets where DFW produces large amounts of business travel. The only other European markets from DFW that could fill a plane in the summer are FCO and DUB, but to be frank the yields are pure trash to both.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
LAXdude1023
Topic Author
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RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:25 pm

Looking at the list, a few things jump out at me:

1) How dominant of a South America hub MIA is. No airline could come close to what AA has there.

2) How well rounded of a hub DFW is. Its one of the most well rounded single airline hubs in the world especially with the addition of PVG and HKG.

3) How much AA really focuses on DFW and MIA. They do have a good operation at JFK too.

4) How AA really let ORD slip from their grasp compared to UA.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
DDR
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Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:09 pm

RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:11 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 34):

I agree that ORD is a little bit of a disappointment. AA service is generally superior to UA and it is a shame that AA does not have a larger international footprint at ORD. I would think that FRA and ZRH would do well from Chicago considering it is a hub for business in the USA. Is there a list anywhere which shows UA European destinations from ORD?
 
simairlinenet
Posts: 823
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:24 am

RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:26 pm

Quoting DDR (Reply 35):
Is there a list anywhere which shows UA European destinations from ORD?

Here you go:
AMS
BRU
CDG*
EDI (starting next summer)
FRA
LHR*
MUC
SNN (summer only)

*competes with AA
 
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ATA L1011
Posts: 1319
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RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:01 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 16):
One thing is clear; the oldest 772s are now 16yrs+ in service

Actually they are all in the 12-14 year old range, all being delivered from 1999 to 2001.
Treat others as you expect to be treated!
 
LAXdude1023
Topic Author
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RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:23 pm

Quoting irishayes (Reply 19):
Score. Not even a year in. The route is obviously performing well.

Just found out more on this. Appearently, the premium cabins are actually filling up on DFW-LIM quite nicely even though sometimes the plane goes out only 60% full (on a 763).

Also to note, its not specific to DFW-LIM. IAH/ATL/MIA-LIM are also doing very nicely up front.

Looks like LIM is a hot ticket in the premium cabins right now.

[Edited 2013-11-20 15:31:15]
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
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IrishAyes
Posts: 2449
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:04 pm

RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:36 pm

Quoting DDR (Reply 32):
Has AA ever tried serving cities such as Manchester

Yup. AA flew DFW-MAN seasonally during Summers 1998 and 1999. AA also flew DFW-BRU in the 1990's, but eventually moved the flight to launch ORD-BRU.

AA code-shared with Sabena on DFW-BRU in 2000/2001, but this route became a casualty after SN collapsed in October '01. Allegedly, it did well on connections.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 34):
2) How well rounded of a hub DFW is. Its one of the most well rounded single airline hubs in the world especially with the addition of PVG and HKG.

And, when you add the QF routes to Sydney, the map looks REALLY good  

Allow me to sound like a MIA/PHX fanboy for a brief second and wish for a route from DFW to Africa. Entebbe, Kigali, Mogadishu, anyone?? That would make the map look darn sexy.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 34):
4) How AA really let ORD slip from their grasp compared to UA.

I always wonder if AA had filed for BK in 2003 and this could have spelled an entirely different fate for its ORD hub (among many, MANY other things, of course).

Quoting DDR (Reply 35):
I agree that ORD is a little bit of a disappointment.

Hugely  

AA has dropped the following routes from ORD ever since it began flights to Europe in 1987:

ORD-TXL
ORD-STN
ORD-STR
ORD-MUC
ORD-ARN
ORD-MXP
ORD-BHX
ORD-GLA
ORD-SNN (operated a triangular ORD-SNN-DUB service and was cut once the SNN stoppover rule ended)
ORD-ORY (although doesn't really count since it moved to CDG)
ORD-ZRH
ORD-DME
ORD-BRU
ORD-FRA

ORD-DUS was also flown at one point, but that has been restarted.

And from Asia:

ORD-NGO
ORD-DEL

And South America:

ORD-EZE

Quoting DDR (Reply 35):
I would think that FRA and ZRH would do well from Chicago considering it is a hub for business in the USA.

Yeah. But the Star Alliance situation with the UA-LH JV crushed them on ORDFRA.

Ironically, ORD-ZRH was moved to DFW in June 2000 and Swissair took over the route as part of its TATL partnership switch from Delta to American. Of course, SR folded, LX took over, and then was acquired by LH and moved to Star Alliance. AA has never since resumed this route.

Quoting DDR (Reply 35):
Is there a list anywhere which shows UA European destinations from ORD?

Sure.

Here's a comprehensive list on AA vs. UA, ORD-Europe, excluding routes operated on JV partner carriers:

American

LHR
MAN
CDG
DUS
DUB (seasonal)
HEL (seasonal)
FCO (seasonal)

United

AMS
BRU
FRA
LHR
MUC
CDG
EDI (seasonal)
SNN (seasonal)
 
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AmricanShamrok
Posts: 2306
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RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:56 pm

Quoting irishayes (Reply 39):
ORD-SNN (operated a triangular ORD-SNN-DUB service and was cut once the SNN stoppover rule ended)

AA also operated ORD-SNN nonstop alongside ORD-DUB for one summer (2007) just before closure. I remember it like it was yesterday - flights AA255/AA256!
 
ORD2010
Posts: 122
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:46 pm

RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:18 am

Quoting irishayes (Reply 39):
American

LHR
MAN
CDG
DUS
DUB (seasonal)
HEL (seasonal)
FCO (seasonal)

United

AMS
BRU
FRA
LHR
MUC
CDG
EDI (seasonal)
SNN (seasonal)

Could we see anything happening from either of them at ORD? I can't believe AA has started and dropped so many EU markets! I feel like AA has just let ORD go and they need to step it up, and UA needs to keep expanding EU and Asia
 
Sydscott
Posts: 3513
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:50 am

RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:18 am

Quoting irishayes (Reply 39):
DFW to Africa. Entebbe, Kigali, Mogadishu, anyone?? That would make the map look darn sexy.

How about Lagos for some oil traffic?
 
usairways85
Posts: 4235
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:59 am

RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:03 am

LAX, where do you see PHL-TLV at 8x weekly

The PHL bled PDEW numbers argument is a bit different with hubs in both. But I don't get the hype. It is no secret that PHL bleeds to both BWI, EWR, and even JFK. So now EWR is bleeding a bit of TLV paxs to PHL, what's the point? I will say again these airports are relatively close so this bleeding is possible. I live just outside of Philly and have flown out of EWR dozens of times. I know others from my area who have flown out of EWR, JFK, TTN, and ACY for convenience or price.
 
MesaFlyGuy
Posts: 3919
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:36 pm

RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:44 am

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 43):

It started in September. On Fridays, flight 796 operates as normal and flight 764 also operates, leaving PHL about three hours earlier (6:50P). It is also operated by an a330-200.
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
thekennady
Posts: 366
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:00 am

RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:39 pm

Quoting ord2010 (Reply 41):
Could we see anything happening from either of them at ORD? I can't believe AA has started and dropped so many EU markets! I feel like AA has just let ORD go and they need to step it up, and UA needs to keep expanding EU and Asia

I feel the same way about what AA has done with ORD and with all these Anti competitive mergers I wonder if AA feels like its better off expanding in markets with less competition IE: DFW and in the future maybe PHL. As we have seen, DFW has been getting a lot of love from AA as was expected. However, Chicago is a large and important market and ORD has great Geography, so it would be crazy to think that AA would give up totally on ORD. Not all EU flights can go through PHL and JFK is dominated by O&D so ORD will still play a significant role in AAs EU network. Asia has been a bit disappointing for AA at ORD and its clear they have no real intentions into maintaining ORD its primary gateway to Asia, as DFW will fulfill that role.

Also, I do see ORD benefiting from this Merger from a domestic standpoint. ORD will be better able to handle some of the connections that are currently forced to PHX through the US network. CLT is to far southeast and wont overlap ORD much. ORD and DFW will no doubt serve as better connecting hubs from west to east. With the Runway layout at ORD, it will be a more efficient hub and should allow AA to start a comeback at least from a domestic standpoint.

I don't see AA adding much INTL in the future but I hope im wrong. We might see AA even shift a small number of EU Flights from PHL to ORD if connections and timing would allow as ORD is still bigger than PHL as a hub and is better situated to catch traffic from the Midwest and West. But it seems to me like AA would solidify itself more in the markets where it has less competition DFW, PHL, CLT, MIA.
 
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IrishAyes
Posts: 2449
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RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:35 pm

Quoting AmricanShamrok (Reply 40):
AA also operated ORD-SNN nonstop alongside ORD-DUB for one summer (2007) just before closure. I remember it like it was yesterday - flights AA255/AA256!

 
Quoting ord2010 (Reply 41):
Could we see anything happening from either of them at ORD? I can't believe AA has started and dropped so many EU markets! I feel like AA has just let ORD go and they need to step it up, and UA needs to keep expanding EU and Asia

This has been answered before, and the resounding opinion appears to be that there is nothing painfully obvious in the pipeline that is likely to materialize in the near-term. My guess would be that any new TATL route announcements from AA are most probable to hail from JFK, or, secondarily, MIA.

While it would be nice to see more intercontinental flights from Chicago on American, and while it's devastating to realize that the market is a fraction of what it once was, at the end of the day, there really isn't much of a need. The merged AA-US network will be extremely formidable on virtually all fronts, with the exception of Asia-Pac, but AA is making gradual headway into competing against DL and UA in that region more effectively.

ORD is also so, so saturated with foreign carrier competition. While I love seeing new airlines as a former Chicago resident, I try to be realistic in terms of which markets AA could viably support from ORD that aren't already served by OALs.

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 42):
How about Lagos for some oil traffic?

Jajaja. DFW is not an oil market.

Quoting Thekennady (Reply 45):
I feel the same way about what AA has done with ORD and with all these Anti competitive mergers I wonder if AA feels like its better off expanding in markets with less competition IE: DFW and in the future maybe PHL. As we have seen, DFW has been getting a lot of love from AA as was expected.

I'm going to quote LAXDude1023 on this point (giving credit where credit is due) and dispel one important myth here: mergers do NOT create capacity and open up new routes. In fact, the opposite: mergers cause airlines to CONTRACT capacity and streamline operations over their hubs.

Bankruptcy and restructuring is what permit airlines to open new routes. The new DFW-PVG/HKG sectors are a result of AA revamping its cost structure - particularly with regards to labor agreements. It is NOT because AA anticipates to have freed up 777s and 77Ws once it merges with US and acquires a few extra widebody planes.

Quoting Thekennady (Reply 45):
Not all EU flights can go through PHL

Why not!?

Quoting Thekennady (Reply 45):
We might see AA even shift a small number of EU Flights from PHL to ORD if connections and timing would allow as ORD is still bigger than PHL as a hub and is better situated to catch traffic from the Midwest and West.

AA's domestic hub at ORD is only slightly larger than US Airways' hub at PHL on a year-round weekly seats basis. It's literally a difference of about 15,000 seats which is not all that much. Chicago is also fragmented among three domestic hubs: WN, UA and AA. PHL only has one.

While ORD is more geographically centralized in the US, some of that is counter-balanced by the back-tracking required from the East Coast markets to connect thru Chicago. Moreover, PHL's east coast location enables US to fly narrowbody 757s across the Atlantic to thinner markets like BRU, AMS and EDI that are within range, whereas AA from ORD would be limited to the British Isles.

Overall, I'm not 100% convinced that come push to shove, ORD eclipses PHL as a better potential TATL gateway hub and I don't expect to see much movement nor swap outs between the two airports.
 
thekennady
Posts: 366
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:00 am

RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:11 pm

Quoting irishayes (Reply 46):
mergers do NOT create capacity and open up new routes. In fact, the opposite: mergers cause airlines to CONTRACT capacity and streamline operations over their hubs.

Correct, and this streamlining will come and the expense of Hubs like PHX, DCA, and maybe CLT, and to the benefit to hubs like DFW, PHL, MIA, and possibly ORD. I fully understand what these mergers do which is the reason I am extremely against anymore airline consolidation.

Quoting irishayes (Reply 46):
Why not!?

Better coverage? Increased connectivity? local market demand? as you mentioned, carriers will streamline capacity, wouldn't it benefit AA to keep secondary EU gateways?

Quoting irishayes (Reply 46):
Overall, I'm not 100% convinced that come push to shove, ORD eclipses PHL as a better potential TATL gateway hub and I don't expect to see much movement nor swap outs between the two airports.

I don't think anyone said it was a better overall gateway, as you mentioned, PHL is better situated on the east coast and there is little backtracking involved in connection through PHL. Also narrow bodies can allow for more EU coverage in smaller markets. ORD is saturated with heavy competition so for AA its a no brainer to maintain to keep PHL as the EU gateway. However, like we have seen with UA, (adding EDI and SNN at ORD when they were previously only served at EWR) its possible that some capacity could be mixed matched between hubs, although I don't see this happening much.
 
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IrishAyes
Posts: 2449
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:04 pm

RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:30 pm

Quoting Thekennady (Reply 47):
Correct, and this streamlining will come and the expense of Hubs like PHX, DCA, and maybe CLT, and to the benefit to hubs like DFW, PHL, MIA, and possibly ORD.

Agree with you on PHX, CLT, DFW and PHL, and DCA we already know will lose some connectivity per the terms of the settlement. ORD, I'm not so sure about.

Quoting Thekennady (Reply 47):
Better coverage? Increased connectivity? local market demand? as you mentioned, carriers will streamline capacity, wouldn't it benefit AA to keep secondary EU gateways?

I guess we're discussing several things here and I suppose there are pros and cons to both elements.

In Chicago, yes, arguably the local market is larger, there are fewer competing hubs in the Midwest that can capture traffic flows from other geographic regions in the US to Europe compared to the East coast.

However, on the flip side, as we've seen above, AA has already tried ORD-Europe service to many of those secondary cities with more failures than successes. Not sure if that necessarily plays into this example, but if history serves as a baseline, AA may feel more encouraged to keep what "works" at PHL rather than move those ops to ORD, or duplicate a similar function out of ORD and cause some cannibalisation effect.

At PHL, you have a decently-sized local market, plenty of connections to most of the geographical US regions that can support an intercontinental flight, and you also have the ability to fly to secondary cities in Europe with a smaller-gauge aircraft that has the range. You seem to be in agreement there  
Quoting Thekennady (Reply 47):
However, like we have seen with UA, (adding EDI and SNN at ORD when they were previously only served at EWR) its possible that some capacity could be mixed matched between hubs, although I don't see this happening much.

Certainly. But remember, these are highly seasonal markets that ORD is supporting purely during the summer months. My guess is that they are sustainable from ORD due to a). location in the British Isles, which are within 757 range, and b). because EWR-SNN/EDI are markets that are served year-round, and because the local market from NYC is so large, ORD can serve as a reliever hub during the peak season.

I'm not so sure that the same scenario can be replicated via ORD and PHL on American. Especially since many of PHL's secondary European markets are seasonal (vs year-round at EWR) and haven't all been success stories (ARN, BHX, OSL come to mind).
 
thekennady
Posts: 366
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:00 am

RE: AA's Long Haul Spring/Summer Schedule

Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:58 pm

Quoting irishayes (Reply 48):
However, on the flip side, as we've seen above, AA has already tried ORD-Europe service to many of those secondary cities with more failures than successes. Not sure if that necessarily plays into this example, but if history serves as a baseline, AA may feel more encouraged to keep what "works" at PHL rather than move those ops to ORD, or duplicate a similar out of ORD and cause some cannibalisation effect.

Yea and with AA/BA going up to 6 daily LHR flights in summer between the two, with IB daily to MAD and with AB going daily to TXL, not everything needs to be flown on AA metal, connections are plentiful through these hubs, also through DUS and HEL. AA also has partners in JL and CX across the pacific.

Quoting irishayes (Reply 48):
I'm not so sure that the same scenario can be replicated via ORD and PHL on American. Especially since many of PHL's secondary European markets are seasonal (vs year-round at EWR) and haven't all been success stories (ARN, BHX, OSL come to mind).


That's why I wondered if a Adventurous AA would try swapping out some of those troubled routes out of PHL, but looks unlikely.

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