Dreamlifter Lands At Wrong Airport

crownvic · Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:29 pm

whats amazing is when you listen to the pilots readbacks most all are filled with errors even prior to landing. I know there is confusion, fear and alot going on after the landing realizing the big error, but he just seems totally out of it...

crownvic · Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:40 pm

Reply 43...Quote...SavannahMark.... Yes - and as I implied in my previous post, do not the air traffic controllers at IAB at the very least, share some of the responsibility for this incident? When I was still on the job, if I cleared an aircraft to land as the local controller did at the beginning of the recording I listened to, I continued to monitor the progress of the approach and landing all the way till turn-off. The local controller, based on the traffic I heard on the channel was not busy with other duties and I simply find it unacceptable that this was allowed to happen. Am I being too harsh?

I totally agree....it seems he cleared the plane for landing while totally oblivious as to where it was and never monitored its progress at all...Maybe he was busy texting or playing on his cell phone LOL

United787 · Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:45 pm

Quoting CitationJet (Reply 49):
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...D7C252A5BD70F0F98210D7C252A5BD70F0

Listening to the ATC was shocking at how long it took them to figure out what airport they were actually at.

Quoting crownvic (Reply 53):
Reply 43...Quote...SavannahMark.... Yes - and as I implied in my previous post, do not the air traffic controllers at IAB at the very least, share some of the responsibility for this incident? When I was still on the job, if I cleared an aircraft to land as the local controller did at the beginning of the recording I listened to, I continued to monitor the progress of the approach and landing all the way till turn-off. The local controller, based on the traffic I heard on the channel was not busy with other duties and I simply find it unacceptable that this was allowed to happen. Am I being too harsh?

I don't think so, I would think that he would watching them on the radar as he spoke with him.

rcair1 · Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:47 pm

Quoting crownvic (Reply 50):
whats amazing is when you listen to the pilots readbacks most all are filled with errors even prior to landing.

Keep in mind you are hearing a recording off a receiver not located at either the a/c or ATC. With "Giant 4241 Heavy" on the ground, it is quite possible their reception in the cockpit was much worse than what you hear. So - some of the errors could be related to that. Not things like "south of you" instead of "north of you", but frequency readbacks and such.

I think it probably had to be just a 'bit' disorienting to them..... "holy mackerel..... where are we?"

United787 · Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:55 pm

So many questions:

Shouldn't the ATC have noticed that they were so low so far from the airport? Did ATC ever locate them on the radar?

When the pilots were approaching, didn't they wonder where the other runway was? They were cleared to land on runway 19L, if they only saw one runway, wouldn't they want to ensure that was 19L and not 19R?

MountainFlyer · Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:57 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 18):
How the hell do you land at the wrong airport?

See below.

Quoting Navion (Reply 48):

Look at a map. Same basic runway heading (18 vs 19), almost perfect alignment just a few miles apart, visual approach, etc...you can see how it happened. Every seasoned pilot has had experiences where they misidentified a landmark (including airports). The vast majority of these mistakes are caught, but every now and then...

Exactly. Especially at night on a visual approach (don't know the circumstances of this flight), it can be very easy to misidentify an airport if you haven't done a proper examination of the airport details (lighting style, arrangement, etc.).

trnswrld · Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:01 pm

Quoting Navion (Reply 48):
Look at a map. Same basic runway heading (18 vs 19), almost perfect alignment just a few miles apart, visual approach, etc...you can see how it happened. Every seasoned pilot has had experiences where they misidentified a landmark (including airports). The vast majority of these mistakes are caught, but every now and then...

Yup exactly! Even on the radar the aircraft would have looked like its on the correct approach with the exception of altitude I suppose. Either way I feel bad for the pilots because this is a mistake that can happen and its too bad it went undetected until after they landed. They are also extremely lucky there were no aircraft on the pattern or on the runway. They wouild have ended very badly for the smaller plane and the 747. Can you imagine being on short final in your little 172 and have a 747 plow right over you, ugh.

flyingturtle · Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:07 pm

Quoting united787 (Reply 56):
Shouldn't the ATC have noticed that they were so low so far from the airport? Did ATC ever locate them on the radar?

I think this really depends on how much traffic McConnell AFB gets. To me, the job of ATC is separation of traffic, assigning a runway, and clearing them to land.

There are a lot of "should have done" addressed to the ATC guys, but IMHO navigation still is the air crew's task.

David

rscaife1682 · Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:13 pm

A pic from a friend at the airport. I have been told it will be taking off around noon LCL with the full load? Any spotters in the area should head out as I am sure it will be an interesting show.

rfields5421 · Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:15 pm

Quoting united787 (Reply 56):
When the pilots were approaching, didn't they wonder where the other runway was? They were cleared to land on runway 19L, if they only saw one runway, wouldn't they want to ensure that was 19L and not 19R?

I don't know the procedures at that airport - but it might be common to only light one runway at that time of night.

19R is only separated from 19L by 800 feet and 1L/19R has an ILS, but 19L does not.

One factor not mentioned so far.

This is the Dreamlifter. There are only a few crews authorized to operate the aircraft. It is virtually impossible this crew has not flown into IAB several times in the past, including night landings.

That said - the sight picture in Wichita at night can be confusing - so I'm told by the pilots of the biz jets of the company I used to work for. They regularly landed at AAO. There are four airports at night lighted with runways in the near same heading - AAO, BEC, CEA, IAB - all with a center line less than 1.5 miles apart in a 10 mile distance. They once lined up with BEC rather than AAO - but caught their mistake.

hivue · Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:15 pm

Quoting Navion (Reply 48):
Same basic runway heading (18 vs 19), almost perfect alignment just a few miles apart, visual approach

Wouldn't the runway have looked a bit on the small side, though?

26point2 · Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:18 pm

Easy mistake to make, especially at night when unfamiliar, but more important an easy mistake to avoid if the crew has the discipline to keep to the instrument guidance to verify...visual approach or not..it only take a glance to confirm.

Sounds like they had the GPS approach to the proper airport queued up so why not verify guidance even though on a visual? That's what we do.

Easy to get fixated out the window and convince yourself that you are looking at the correct airport/runway, particularly at night in an unfamiliar area, but a quick glance back inside easily confirms right or wrong.

I can see a scenario where, because they landed at an airport 8 miles short of the destination, they were out of position and very high so they tried to salvage things and were both focused on that effort.

[Edited 2013-11-21 07:30:30]

xdlx · Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:18 pm

CLEAR FOR THE VISUAL ????

bond007 · Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:22 pm

Quoting united787 (Reply 56):
didn't they wonder where the other runway was? They were cleared to land on runway 19L, if they only saw one runway, wouldn't they want to ensure that was 19L and not 19R?

You would think so! That is a key point right there!

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 57):
Exactly. Especially at night on a visual approach (don't know the circumstances of this flight), it can be very easy to misidentify an airport if you haven't done a proper examination of the airport details (lighting style, arrangement, etc.).

That's why you do "a proper examination of the airport details (lighting style, arrangement, etc.)". That's like saying it's easy to stall if you don't watch your airspeed.
The beacon is even on the other side of the runway(s), which is one major point I use for runway/airport location at night.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 61):
There are four airports at night lighted with runways in the near same heading - AAO, BEC, CEA, IAB - all with a center line less than 1.5 miles apart in a 10 mile distance.

One more reason to double check I guess Wink

Jimbo

[Edited 2013-11-21 07:25:13]

rfields5421 · Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:23 pm

Quoting hivue (Reply 62):
Wouldn't the runway have looked a bit on the small side, though?

The difference in length between 6,000 ft (AAO) and 12,000 ft (IAB) would be almost impossible to determine at night on approach. The longer runway at IAB slopes slightly downhill on landing while the shorter runway slopes slightly uphill on landing from the north.

The bigger clue for the crew would be the lighting and activity on the sides of the runway. IAB has a lot of industrial complex / lighting on the right side (Boeing) of the runways - and a bit of ramp area and lighting on the left side (AFB) of the runways. AAO only has ramp areas on the right side of the runway.

[Edited 2013-11-21 07:26:35]

Gonzalo · Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Quoting wingnutmn (Reply 44):
Ultimately it is a PR nightmare for Boeing

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 45):
One thing is sure Boeing should drop the DREAM name

Au contraire....You're both wrong.
Boeing should use this incident to promote its newest 747 version : The 747 STOL, or DreamSTOL if you want...

Falcon Flyer · Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:25 pm

Maybe a runway inspection will be in order after it departs? 18/36 is limited to 40000 lbs single wheel and 62000 lbs double wheel.

rfields5421 · Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:28 pm

Quoting xdlx (Reply 64):
CLEAR FOR THE VISUAL ????

The landing runway does not have an ILS - of course they are doing a visual landing.

Edit - Just found this on Flightaware

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/GTI4241

Not often you see a scheduled flight for a B747 for a 9 mile flight, 8 minutes long at altitude 3,000 ft (Ground altitude in the area is 1,370-1,440 ft - so the flight is planned for approx. 1,500 ft AGL.)

They need to get it moved today. Weather is not great today with light rain and overcase - but the forecast for tonight is for freezing drizzle and rain possible.

[Edited 2013-11-21 07:35:09]

migair54 · Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:36 pm

I would love to see the controller of the airport when he saw the beast rolling down the runway....

In Havana happened more than once actually, I know at least 2 planes that landed in the air base that is 5-6 NM before. Now in the jeppesen plates you can see a Warning message.

n92r03 · Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:46 pm

NTSB now "gathering information" on this event.

j.mo · Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:46 pm

Quoting SavannahMark (Reply 39):
I'm sitting here scratching my head wondering how an event like this could have happened. Is the tower at IAB not equipped with a D-Brite or other device that would have assisted the controllers in verifying the location and approach path of the aircraft? Were the controllers sitting up there on their butts picking their noses and not monitoring the traffic outside their windows which would have alerted at least someone possessing a little curiosity that the aircraft was not positioned properly on the approach to THEIR airport? Very odd indeed!

I listen to the ATC at an AFB quite frequently. As a former tower controller I can tell you, their situational awareness is next to non-exisistent. I once heard them screw up, badly, a pattern full of 3 airplanes. 2 of the 3 airplanes did not know which airplane they were, in the sequence. 3 airplanes.....If IAB is like that, i'm not surprised.

gregarious119 · Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:52 pm

Just listened to the audio -

My first reaction was MAN those guys were L.O.S.T. Trying to use GPS coordinates and cross identifying a plane that had just flown over them. However, after thinking it over and looking at the charts, I can absolutely see how they got so mixed up. Within 10 miles, there are 3 airports/4 runways, all with the same alignment. Night time, so much less visual reference (on approach or on the ground).

Can't wait to see how they get it out of there. Lousy METAR currently...

rfields5421 · Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:54 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 70):
I would love to see the controller of the airport

There is no tower/ controller at AAO.

jreuschl · Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:02 pm

Maybe the Pilots used Apple Maps?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-24246646

It is possible!

citationjet · Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:12 pm

Scheduled takeoff from KAAO at 12 noon today for the 9 sm, 8 minute flight to McConnell AFB (KIAB). Filed for 3,000 ft.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/GTI4241

SonomaFlyer · Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:18 pm

Quoting hivue (Reply 62):
Quoting Navion (Reply 48):
Same basic runway heading (18 vs 19), almost perfect alignment just a few miles apart, visual approach

Wouldn't the runway have looked a bit on the small side, though?

Hard to tell at night.

pilotalex14 · Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:25 pm

Did this also happen to the C17 a couple years back, I'm sure i heard of a similar incident.

mayor · Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:28 pm

Heard a story once, when I was working in SHV, of a DL CV880 that landed at the wrong airport (I believe it was JAN) and they bussed the pax to MEM, removed the seats and trucked those to MEM, gave them just enough fuel to go JAN-MEM and let her go.

drmlnr1 · Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:31 pm

Someone missed the don't land at the wrong airport day during ground school.

thegreatchecko · Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:39 pm

Someone posted about a similar C17 incident. Happened at Peter O Knight, near Tampa, Florida. There's a video of that one! Impressive performance.

http://www.abcactionnews.com/dpp/new...s-at-tampas-peter-o-knight-airport

[Edited 2013-11-21 08:40:18]

JAAlbert · Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:39 pm

"Lucy, you have some 'splaining to do!"

So will these pilots be disciplined by the FAA or whomever disciplines pilots for safety/operational breaches? Will Boeing discipline/terminate the pilots? Can Boeing be sanctioned/fined for this incident?

lightsaber · Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:48 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 1):
6100 ft. 100ft wide. Not good...

Woops!

Quoting jreuschl (Reply 6):

This falls into the "your day wasn't THAT bad" category.

Made my dad (was having a bad day, mea culpa for the Schadenfreude).

Quoting n92r03 (Reply 71):
NTSB now "gathering information" on this event.

It will be a binder...

Quoting jreuschl (Reply 75):
Maybe the Pilots used Apple Maps?

Quoting CitationJet (Reply 76):

Scheduled takeoff from KAAO at 12 noon today for the 9 sm, 8 minute flight to McConnell AFB (KIAB). Filed for 3,000 ft.

Good to hear.

Quoting gregarious119 (Reply 73):
Within 10 miles, there are 3 airports/4 runways, all with the same alignment. Night time, so much less visual reference (on approach or on the ground).

Still not good. I really hope it wasn't Barry (pilot I'm acquainted with who flies 747s for Boeing).

Lightsaber

rfields5421 · Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:48 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 82):
So will these pilots be disciplined by the FAA or whomever disciplines pilots for safety/operational breaches? Will Boeing discipline/terminate the pilots? Can Boeing be sanctioned/fined for this incident?

FAA - possibly - but doubtful

Boeing - no - Atlas - maybe

Atlas might be fined. Boeing won't because they didn't operate the aircraft.

The controllers are likely military and might possibly be up for some administrative action.

This is the first wrong airport incident in about 13 months. The two most recent in the US - Silver Airways at Clarksburg, WV and Colgan at Lake Charles LA did not result in any fines or suspensions - that I am aware of.

The Northwest Airlines pilots who landed the A319 at Ellsworth AFB rather than Rapid City SD were terminated by the airline if my memory is correct.

A list of wrong airport landings is here. http://www.thirdamendment.com/wrongway.html

It appears comprehensive and accurate - but might not have all such incidents.

Okie · Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:49 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 82):
Will Boeing discipline/terminate the pilots? Can Boeing be sanctioned/fined for this incident?

Up thread it is indicated the operations are operated by Atlas not Boeing, I suspect this will be a feather in the cap for Boeing pilots to try and get the flights back.

Quoting Falcon Flyer (Reply 68):
Maybe a runway inspection will be in order after it departs? 18/36 is limited to 40000 lbs single wheel and 62000 lbs double wheel.

Probably but the runway has already handled the load once.

I am sure Boeing has looked at their performance figures, not like this a part 121 designed or operated aircraft.

Okie

SavannahMark · Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:10 pm

Quoting j.mo (Reply 72):
I listen to the ATC at an AFB quite frequently. As a former tower controller I can tell you, their situational awareness is next to non-exisistent. I once heard them screw up, badly, a pattern full of 3 airplanes. 2 of the 3 airplanes did not know which airplane they were, in the sequence. 3 airplanes.....If IAB is like that, i'm not surprised.

I think the performance of the local controller and any other controller involved in the handling of this aircraft to be disgraceful. While many may want to heap scorn, criticism, and second guessing on the pilots who were after all, responsible for the navigation of their aircraft, pilots and controllers have a SHARED responsibility to guarantee safety in the aviation environment. I found all too often, controllers exhibiting levels of complacency that have directly and indirectly led to accidents and incidents that would have been avoided had they simply been doing the job they're paid to do. Comair Flight 5191 is one such example that immediately comes to mind. So while I'm not going to let the pilots off the hook here, this could have been, at least in my opinion, an incident that was totally avoidable had everyone been doing their jobs!

BravoOne · Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:13 pm

Yea the Boeing pilots ran out of gas and ditched in Elliot Bay. So much for planning. Nice job of putting it on the water though. These Atlas pilots will survive. Nice that they didn't bend any metal.

washingtonflyer · Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:21 pm

Any idea which liveatc feed would be likely to have the "ferry" flight?

bennett123 · Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:30 pm

http://malander.webspace.virginmedia.com/northolt/large.html

Thought that this would raise a smile, especially PanAm B707 N725PA.

gatechae · Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:31 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 47):

Boeing 'owns' the west side of the base. As mentioned above - Spirit Aerospace use part of the factory complex on the west side of the runways for 787 production activity. The Dreamlifter is a regular visitor to the airport/ base.

Also every B737 starts its life at the factory on the west side of the air base - though they leave on rail cars headed to the Seattle area, not flying out.

That said - this airport was the destination of the flight.

The flight was flown from TAR-JFK-IAB on Nov 8, Nov 12, Nov 17 and yesterday - http://flightaware.com/live/flight/GTI4241

Its actually Spirit Aerosystems and the Boeing 787 section 41 is made on site. When I was a summer intern there I got to tour the Section 41 construction and its pretty awesome.

jreuschl · Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:40 pm

http://www.airlinereporter.com/2013/...ands-at-airport-that-is-too-small/

At the bottom of the article is a live feed to a local TV station. They'll have the takeoff.

The reporter has said a couple of times that the pilots have been "dismissed" but she may mean they are not going to fly the flight today vs. fired. Bad choice of words if that is the case...

[Edited 2013-11-21 09:42:19]

tsra · Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:42 pm

The scary thing is four aircraft landed and one departed AAO with the Dreamlifter on the runway. This could of been worse!

7BOEING7 · Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:42 pm

Quoting okie (Reply 85):
Up thread it is indicated the operations are operated by Atlas not Boeing, I suspect this will be a feather in the cap for Boeing pilots to try and get the flights back.

Boeing pilots really never had this job (nor do they want it) except for a few of the initial flights. Evergreen had the initial contract and then it was given to Atlas (they bought some 748's). The pilot requirements for this job would require Boeing to almost double their present "flying" pilot base -- a lot cheaper to farm it out.

bj87 · Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:43 pm

I guess the people from Atlas didn't study their atlas

Good thing no one got hurt, bit of a pr nightmare for Atlas/Boeing but probably great for Jabarra Airport. I hope their runway survives the weight load.

On another positive note, it is a good thing they didn't skid off the runway, they would have needed a hell of a lot of paint to white out the dreamlifter logo that would have added a bunch of $$$$ to this MISTAKE.

Edited

[Edited 2013-11-21 09:53:11]

jetblueguy22 · Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:48 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 18):
Doesn't 5Y run the LCFs for Boeing? What's their standard procedure for such an incident?

Bring her to the end, hold the brakes, spool her up as high as she'll go and hope she's off the ground before 6,101.

Quoting wingnutmn (Reply 44):
If they have a union or not, if they have ASAP program or not, if they have fatigue reports or not?

They're almost certainly military controllers. Not much union stuff to deal with.

Quoting Navion (Reply 48):
Look at a map. Same basic runway heading (18 vs 19), almost perfect alignment just a few miles apart, visual approach, etc...you can see how it happened. Every seasoned pilot has had experiences where they misidentified a landmark (including airports). The vast majority of these mistakes are caught, but every now and then...

They are close, but these guys should have made sure they were on the right approach. I know in hindsight it is a "Duh!" but these guys aren't private pilots than landed their 172 at the wrong airport.

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 57):
Especially at night on a visual approach (don't know the circumstances of this flight), it can be very easy to misidentify an airport if you haven't done a proper examination of the airport details (lighting style, arrangement, etc.).

True, but there is that catch all that the PIC is directly responsible for the safe operation of the aircraft.

Quoting hivue (Reply 62):
Wouldn't the runway have looked a bit on the small side, though?

Not at night. One of the hardest things to learn, I found, was doing landings at night. Your depth perception is poor and you just can't see as well. This was on a runway that was lit up like a Christmas tree too. If this was during the day I would agree, but at night it is more difficult.

Quoting drmlnr1 (Reply 80):
Someone missed the don't land at the wrong airport day during ground school.

Giving me flashbacks to my first solo xc. I think my flight instructor reminded me 3 or 4 times to make sure I was landing at the right airport on the right runway.

Quoting SavannahMark (Reply 86):
I think the performance of the local controller and any other controller involved in the handling of this aircraft to be disgraceful. While many may want to heap scorn, criticism, and second guessing on the pilots who were after all, responsible for the navigation of their aircraft, pilots and controllers have a SHARED responsibility to guarantee safety in the aviation environment

Agreed. They have a shared responsibility, especially on an IFR flight plan. But that doesn't absolve the pilots of all responsibility.
Pat

Thunderboltdrgn · Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:01 pm

another stream provider: http://nerdherd.net/giant4241/

bond007 · Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:05 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 93):
But that doesn't absolve the pilots of all responsibility.

It doesn't absolve them of any responsibility. The PIC has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of flight.

Jimbo

[Edited 2013-11-21 10:06:14]

vf6cruiser · Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:21 pm

600,000 lbs is light for a 747........6,100 ft will be enough if they don't scrape up any obstructions on the field. I used to sit along the runway at Memphis and watch the 747-200 leave for MSP every day.........it was remarkable how little runway was used. This is a newer bird with better engines and shouldn't be a problem, would love to watch it......hope somebody gets the video.

In this era of GPS it's really tough to justify an off airport landing, but for all the smug non-pilots here I could stuff anybody on this board in a 182 in minimal VFR weather (3 miles visby) and fly for two minutes and not one of you could find your way back to the airport visually. Picking out fields isn't easy.......you do get a lot better as you go along.......night just makes it ten times harder. But I expect this crew may be done..........at the very least a sizeable amount of time off with no pay........

Indy · Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:23 pm

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 53):
Keep in mind you are hearing a recording off a receiver not located at either the a/c or ATC. With "Giant 4241 Heavy" on the ground, it is quite possible their reception in the cockpit was much worse than what you hear. So - some of the errors could be related to that. Not things like "south of you" instead of "north of you", but frequency readbacks and such.

I think it probably had to be just a 'bit' disorienting to them..... "holy mackerel..... where are we?"

I don't listen to many of these recordings so I don't know how it compares. But in my opinion the pilot seemed a bit confused even before the landing. Could this be a fatigue issue? Didn't seem like he could read back his own ID correctly.

Thunderboltdrgn · Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:23 pm

Quoting ThunderboltDrgn (Reply 94):
another stream provider: http://nerdherd.net/giant4241/

He switched to: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/dreaml..._source=ustre-am&utm_medium=social

jreuschl · Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:23 pm

Reporter on TV said the nearby expressway would be closed on takeoff!

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