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Scipio
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Airbus Regional Widebodies

Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:56 pm

The Dubai airshow has brought us some further info on Airbus’s regional widebodies, as well as a launch customer for one of them with Etihad signing up for 24 A350 Regionals.

One thing that became clear is that the regional versions of the A330 and the A350 will be aimed at very different markets. The former is intended as a high-density short-hauler, optimized for missions of 2,000 NM (per earlier info, the maximum range would be 3,000NM) and with 9-abreast seating in a standard configuration. The A350 Regional is optimized for longer missions up to 8 hours (or, depending on the source, 6,800 NM) and offers regular long-haul comfort (at least in terms of seat width) with 9-abreast seating in an A350 cabin (i.e., 18” seats   ).

In both cases, much of the optimization seems to be focused on the cabin, with reduced galley space, denser seating arrangements, and reduced or removed crew rest facilities.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....e-xml/awx_11_18_2013_p0-637965.xml

From the horse’s mouth:

> “The A330 Regional is a high-density aircraft for short-haul services. An A350 Regional would be for long-haul operations, so the two types are complementary but are not the same range,” explained Pendaries. “There are two types of long-haul: up to eight hours and more than eight hours, which requires a crew rest. Eight hours long-haul is the limit of the A350 Regional, which is not the target of the A330 Regional.”

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-ne...ress-includes-double-stretch-study

If 9-abreast will indeed be the standard on the A330 Regional, it may mean that the typical A330 Regional will seat more passengers than the typical A350 Regional…

Other news is Airbus’s estimates of the market potential for the A330 Regional. It sees no real competitor for this airplane, strong interest, and a market for several hundred frames.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...erest-in-lower-weight-a330-393366/
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...eight-a330-to-china-boeing-393330/

EIS for the A330 Regional is foreseen for 2015, meaning that some orders should be concluded soon… If Etihad will indeed be the first to operate the A350 Regional, EIS of that type would be in 2018.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....e-xml/awx_11_17_2013_p0-637697.xml


Some informative older articles:

http://airchive.com/blog/2013/09/25/...ight-a330-for-regional-operations/
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ral-to-reduced-weight-a330-390963/
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalk...ed-with-fuel-payload-optimisation/
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....e-xml/AW_07_29_2013_p31-600094.xml


And some relevant previous threads:

New "Regional" A330 Version In The Works (by JerseyFlyer Jul 19 2013 in Civil Aviation)
Airbus Product Announcement Sept, 25 (by KarelXWB Sep 24 2013 in Civil Aviation)

[Edited 2013-11-21 07:29:41]
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Airbus Regional Widebodies

Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:06 pm

Nice opening post, nice overview   

Quoting Scipio (Thread starter):
EIS for the A330 Regional is foreseen for 2015, meaning that some orders should be concluded soon… If Etihad will indeed be the first to operate the A350 Regional, EIS of that type would be in 2018.

I believe SQ will also take a batch of regional A350s.
 
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EPA001
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RE: Airbus Regional Widebodies

Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:09 pm

Quoting Scipio (Thread starter):
The Dubai airshow has brought us some further info on Airbus’s regional widebodies, as well as a launch customer for one of them with Etihad signing up for 24 A350 Regionals.

A very nice opening post indeed. It seems they could be quite successful with the region WB-aircraft. We already had the news report on Flightglobal yesterday where Boeing expressed their concerns, which must mean Airbus is on to something.  .
 
na
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RE: Airbus Regional Widebodies

Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:22 pm

Thank you for posting this. Very interesting as Airbus has ignored the short/midhaul widebody market for almost 10 years. I hope LH will order some A330"D"s for routes once operated by the A300, as the current A321 ist not the best replacement.
Any idea how these planes will be called? They use the letter E for extended range versions, so an A330S for short or A350M for medium would make sense.
Wonder if Airbus will also market a specific A380 version in the future for regional routes, which would be perfect for EK, or if the planned denser seating will already do the trick.
 
tortugamon
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RE: Airbus Regional Widebodies

Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:52 pm

What happened to 18" seats?!   It seems to me that both of these aircraft are a response to the 787-10 which should carry ~10% more passengers and cargo on less fuel for any of the intended missions. But both of these aircraft will be available sooner which will continue to valuable and the A350 regional could have an advantage on maintenance.

tortugamon
 
RubberJungle
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RE: Airbus Regional Widebodies

Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:54 pm

Quoting na (Reply 3):
Any idea how these planes will be called?

Flightglobal has reported that the regional A350 will not be separately branded, because it's not structurally different from other A350s. Customers will be able to switch back to the 'full' version, so it's purely an operational restriction.
 
Scipio
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RE: Airbus Regional Widebodies

Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:19 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 4):
What happened to 18" seats?!  

Those are for long-haul  

Airbus has called for 18" as a minimum standard for long-haul operations.

Quote from Airbus's sleep study:

> Based on the Subjective and Objective findings, this study strongly supports the use of the 18 inch seat as a new standard in long-haul civil aviation based on the impact on sleep physiological variables.

http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/back...re_Airbus_Seat_Research_Report.pdf
http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamili...s/passengeraircraft/cabin-comfort/

Nonetheless, one cannot deny that there is some tension between this campaign and the quasi-simultaneous introduction of a 9-abreast standard in an A330 cabin. I guess one is not supposed to sleep in an A330 Regional  
Quoting na (Reply 3):
Very interesting as Airbus has ignored the short/midhaul widebody market for almost 10 years.

Yes. I still hope that these are just stopgap solutions on the way to a dedicated short-to-medium range widebody sometime early in the next decade...

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 1):
Nice opening post, nice overview
Quoting Epa001 (Reply 2):
A very nice opening post indeed.
Quoting na (Reply 3):
Thank you for posting this.

Thank you, and very welcome  Smile

[Edited 2013-11-21 13:34:02]
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Airbus Regional Widebodies

Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:27 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 6):
I guess one is not supposed to sleep in an A330 Regional

2,000nm is about 4-5 hours flying time, some people might take a nap  
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Airbus Regional Widebodies

Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:02 am

Airbus’s new regional version of the A330 will be powered by a reduced-thrust version of the Rolls-Royce Trent 700, to be branded the Trent 700 Regional. Rolls-Royce says the powerplant will incorporate the new EP2 engine-performance package, which becomes available in 2015.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-variant-for-regional-a330-393505/
 
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frigatebird
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RE: Airbus Regional Widebodies

Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:45 am

Quoting Scipio (Reply 6):
Quoting tortugamon (Reply 4):What happened to 18" seats?!
Those are for long-haul

Airbus has called for 18" as a minimum standard for long-haul operations.

I wonder if this means the 10 abreast seating option for the A350 is out of the window now   

Quoting Scipio (Thread starter):

Other news is Airbus%u2019s estimates of the market potential for the A330 Regional. It sees no real competitor for this airplane,

How about the 787-10? Though a derivative from true long haul airplane, it will have a CASM that should give the A330 regional a run for its money...
Boeing doesn't seem impressed with the A330 regional anyway: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...eight-a330-to-china-boeing-393330/
Frankly, Boeing's solution of congestion by upgauging 73G/738 to 739 or A319/320 to A321 is way too simplistic IMO. What if you already operate A321s or 739s on those congested routes? I find the proposition in itself rather insulting, just like the Chinese hadn't thought of that   

This part from the article is even better: "If you fill every seat on the A330, you're taking an airplane designed to fly 6,000 miles, 10 hours, and forcing it to do 1.5-2 hours. It doesn't make sense. You're carrying tens of thousands of kilos of structure that you don't need,"
Sounds like the 787-3 to me... Sour grapes perhaps? the A330 was originally designed as a 3000-4000nm aircraft, matured for longer routes later in its life. The 787 was designed with just long haul in the minds of the designers...
 
bjorn14
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RE: Airbus Regional Widebodies

Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:08 pm

I wish the 330 Regional had longer legs...up to 5,000nm. Maybe it could replace the 757 as TATL/Transcon fram
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Airbus Regional Widebodies

Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:10 pm

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 9):
How about the 787-10? Though a derivative from true long haul airplane, it will have a CASM that should give the A330 regional a run for its money...

True, but it won't be available in large numbers before the end of the decade. Airbus hopes to sell a few hundred copies between today and 2020.

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 9):
find the proposition in itself rather insulting, just like the Chinese hadn't thought of that

Indeed. Many wide-bodies are being used in Asia for regional usage. It was also China who asked Airbus if they could optimize the A330 for shorter routes.

This has been done before, 747-400D before   

[Edited 2013-11-26 04:38:22]
 
bjorn14
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RE: Airbus Regional Widebodies

Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:20 pm

I wish the 330R had longer legs up to 5,000nm so it could do TATL/Transcon and a little bit more. It could be a replacement for the 757. Is this version based on the 332 or 333?
 
SYDSpotter
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RE: Airbus Regional Widebodies

Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:36 pm

So if you were to go 10 abreast on an A350, would you get better economics than a 9 abreast A330?

I know the A330R would have an earlier EIS than the A350R, but beyond an earlier EIS and cheaper acquisition costs, wouldn't you rather 'abuse' a more capable 10 abreast A350R than get an A330R.
 
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JerseyFlyer
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RE: Airbus Regional Widebodies

Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:44 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 6):
this study strongly supports the use of the 18 inch seat as a new standard in long-haul civil aviation based on the impact on sleep physiological variables
Quoting frigatebird (Reply 9):
Airbus has called for 18" as a minimum standard for long-haul operations.
I wonder if this means the 10 abreast seating option for the A350 is out of the window now

I think it means 9x is standard but 10x will be available as an option (Air Asia has ordered 10x)
 
Someone83
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RE: Airbus Regional Widebodies

Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:49 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 12):
I wish the 330R had longer legs up to 5,000nm so it could do TATL/Transcon and a little bit more. It could be a replacement for the 757. Is this version based on the 332 or 333?

What is the point with that? For those mission the "regular" A330-300 gives you exactly what you ask for
 
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frigatebird
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RE: Airbus Regional Widebodies

Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:01 pm

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 13):
So if you were to go 10 abreast on an A350, would you get better economics than a 9 abreast A330?

I would think so, yes. But I don't have the numbers to back it up.

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 13):
I know the A330R would have an earlier EIS than the A350R, but beyond an earlier EIS and cheaper acquisition costs, wouldn't you rather 'abuse' a more capable 10 abreast A350R than get an A330R.

Karel had the answer, not only as far as competition from the 787-10 is concerned but it also applies to A350R:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 11):
it won't be available in large numbers before the end of the decade. Airbus hopes to sell a few hundred copies (of the A330R) between today and 2020.

It is one of the strong selling points of the A330: availability. And reliability of already proven technology.
 
art
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RE: Airbus Regional Widebodies

Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:19 pm

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 9):
This part from the article is even better: "If you fill every seat on the A330, you're taking an airplane designed to fly 6,000 miles, 10 hours, and forcing it to do 1.5-2 hours. It doesn't make sense. You're carrying tens of thousands of kilos of structure that you don't need,"

The only way to optimise an aircraft for short/medium haul is to design one with short/medium haul in mind. Altering A330/A350 with a view to improving shorter range performance merely nibbles at their deficiencies when used in a manner that was never intended. Something for Airbus to consider post A350 and A320NEO model range developments?
 
parapente
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RE: Airbus Regional Widebodies

Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:23 pm

Air - bus was founded on the belief of the existance and future growth of this regional marketplace A300. In actual fact the sweetspot was 150-190 pax on 737's and 320's as they offerered greater flexibility and scheduling. But perhaps its time is coming? Particularly in Asia.
I know that Airbus has talked about it but I do wonder why they do not quickly put blended winglets on this aircraft. The wing is already stressed for it and it is bound to give them 3% lower sfc I would have thought (since on average they deliver 5% improvement on a previously non wingletted aircraft). Or why not let Aviation Partners just do it? There must be a massive 330 retro fit market I would have thought?
 
bjorn14
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RE: Airbus Regional Widebodies

Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:22 pm

If Airbus couldn't sell the A330-500 to any one in the early 2000's what makes them think they can sell this regional version? Essentially the -500 is this plane with a little bit more leg.
 
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JerseyFlyer
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RE: Airbus Regional Widebodies

Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:18 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 19):
If Airbus couldn't sell the A330-500 to any one in the early 2000's what makes them think they can sell this regional version? Essentially the -500 is this plane with a little bit more leg.

Was the -500 not the polar opposite of the 330 regional?

My recollection is shorter than -200, longer range, with a brief hint of interest from SQ at the time.
 
SA7700
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RE: Airbus Regional Widebodies

Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:37 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 19):
If Airbus couldn't sell the A330-500 to any one in the early 2000's what makes them think they can sell this regional version? Essentially the -500 is this plane with a little bit more leg.

I don't believe so. From what I understand the A330-500 was a shorter version of the A330-200 and that it was eventually shelved. Obviously there will be technological improvements since the year 2001.

Here is a discussion that occurred on airliners.net at the time that the A350-500 was reported as being shelved.


Airbus Shelves A330-500; (by Aad665 Feb 5 2001 in Civil Aviation)


Regards,

SA7700
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Airbus Regional Widebodies

Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:38 pm

Wikipedia also has some information about the A330-500.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A330#A330-500
 
bjorn14
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RE: Airbus Regional Widebodies

Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:43 pm

Yes, the -500 was a shrunken -200 with pax capacity of about 225 and a range of 4,350nm. SQ did want it but LH wanted longer legs.
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Airbus Regional Widebodies

Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:00 pm

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 16):
It is one of the strong selling points of the A330: availability.

Lightsaber made the unwritten law of Anet regarding aircraft not in the development stage:

"Never underestimate the power if availability"

There is also the possibility that an American carrier or Mexican carrier to have a small fleet of these to the caribbean destinations or central america countries. I remember when Mexicana used a 757 to do MEX-LAX and the plane was always MTOW due to being filled to the gills with PAX and cargo... then again this route has a lot of traffic with narrow bodies now with frequency, over capacity...

Airbus will sell a few hundred of these...

TRB
 
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N62NA
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RE: Airbus Regional Widebodies

Thu Nov 28, 2013 1:30 am

Quoting Scipio (Thread starter):
An A350 Regional would be for long-haul operations,

This makes no sense as written!
 
sweair
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RE: Airbus Regional Widebodies

Thu Nov 28, 2013 6:48 am

A better regional would be a stretched A321 with CFRP wings and folding wing tips. A true 752 replacement. Get PW to do a higher thrust GTF and you are home free, very efficient structure compared to a WB. The best in the market would be the 753 actually, structural weight per seat. Worst should be the low density A380.
 
strfyr51
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RE: Airbus Regional Widebodies

Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:54 am

Isn't this the same philosophy that spawned the B777-200, Vs the -200er and the -200LR??
The 777A market has no Center wing tank to speak of, The 200 ER has a center wing tank and the LR has an even LARGER center wing tank. with capabilities for fuselage tanks.
The 777A market airplanes have an 8+ hr range to fly SEA-NRT, SFO-HNL-GUM-NRT, and ORD/IAH -TATL.
Airbus can and should build a Range or airplanes as not all people are going to want the same flavor of anything.
It was claimed the A350-800 was too much wing for too little fuselage and Cabin.
It will eventually find favor as a "Corporate/VIP/High Roller Barge". Where getting anywhere From anywhere Else is the mantra.. More in the line of Adnan Kashogi's Private DC-8-62.
With Solid Gold Faucets and the like...
 
trex8
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RE: Airbus Regional Widebodies

Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:16 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 27):

Isn't this the same philosophy that spawned the B777-200, Vs the -200er and the -200LR??

Except the 777A was the original version then when IGW- increased gross weight - versions came out later that became the 772ER, then the LR was spun out of the 300ER development. Airbus has gradually made the original A330 into an "ER" by increasing weights and now are going the other way with weights and range back to the original lower weight versions of the A333.
 
tortugamon
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RE: Airbus Regional Widebodies

Thu Nov 28, 2013 4:10 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 27):

The 77A was rolled out because US carriers wanted it while the engine technology was catching up. Boeing was planning on only doing the 77E. In fact their weights are not that much different.

You don't need the big wing of the A358 to get anywhere you want at such low DOWs.

tortugamon
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Airbus Regional Widebodies

Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:09 pm

Interesting quote from Christoph Müller (Aer Lingus CEO) about the A350:

Quote:
Müller: we have 9 firm A350 orders, but aircraft is a bit overspecced for us. We were tempted to retain A330HGW instead, but: 1/2
Quote:
Müller: since A350-900 REGIONAL became available, these fit us - we felt much more comfortable, so we will take 9 of these and go all-A350.

http://twitter.com/PEdmondAero
 
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EPA001
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RE: Airbus Regional Widebodies

Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:47 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 30):
Interesting quote from Christoph Müller (Aer Lingus CEO) about the A350:

That is interesting indeed. And if all the customers feel that way then an A330-NG really has no chance against an A359R. And we will as expected not see the launch of an A330-NG.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Airbus Regional Widebodies

Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:01 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 19):
If Airbus couldn't sell the A330-500 to any one in the early 2000's what makes them think they can sell this regional version? Essentially the -500 is this plane with a little bit more leg.

Way back then B737-700 and A319 where popular, now its B737-900 and A321. That makes a larger Airliner more attractive today.

best regards

Thomas
 
ContnlEliteCMH
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RE: Airbus Regional Widebodies

Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:36 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 12):
I wish the 330R had longer legs up to 5,000nm so it could do TATL/Transcon and a little bit more. It could be a replacement for the 757. Is this version based on the 332 or 333?

The A330R is based on the A333. http://www.airbus.com/newsevents/new...for-domestic-and-regional-operati/

Also, how can a 500,000 pound airplane (the A333) be a replacement for a 250,000 pound airplane (757)? This is far from "replacement".

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