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LOWS
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German Transport Minister Threatens SZG

Sat Nov 23, 2013 4:48 pm

http://www.salzburg.com/nachrichten/...n-salzburg-die-alarmglocken-83850/

German transport minister Peter Ramsauer is threatening to implement regulations that would effectively make it imposible for Salzburg Airport to operate, by prohibiting flights too and from SZG in German airpace on certain instrument approaches.

He represents the electoral district of Traunstein and Berchtesgadnerland, the two areas on the border with Austria.

A recent study found that only 30% of the noise had impact in Germany, versus 70% in Austria.

Salzburg Governor Haslauer, Foreign Minister Spindilegger, Transport Ministerin Bures and others held a "summit" yesterday with him in Vienna to no agreement. Only the complete forbidding of flights in German airspace below 10.000 Feet would appear to be satisfactory for him. That would severly limit the ability of the airport to function, effectively closing it.

1/3 of the passengers in SZG originate from Germany (Southern Bavaria).

I live about a kilometer from the airport, slightly off the busiest approach path on the east side. It really is not a significant concern or problem for me.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: German Transport Minister Threatens SZG

Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:07 pm

All this sounds a bit like a schoolyard where the big boy wants to impose his rules on the younger ones. How many movements are there daily at SZG ? I believe the Germans already complained about the traffic heading to ZRH, which by the way must be way higher than in SZG.
 
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LOWS
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RE: German Transport Minister Threatens SZG

Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:33 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 1):

In 2012 there were 17 122 movements, divided by 365 is 46,9 per day. Note that a lot of them happen on Saturdays during the winter, so the average day in May, for example, probably doesn't exceed 20. There are a few flights per day to FRA and VIE (and return) on OS, a few on AB to DUS and one to TXL. Every week, there are a few to CGN (4U) and STN (FR).

2012 was actually the worst year for SZG in total movements since 2005.

http://www.salzburg-airport.com/de/u...irport/daten-fakten/statistisches/

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 1):
the big boy wants to impose his rules on the younger ones

yeah. People in Austria, and especially us in Salzburg tend to have a thing against Germans. Mr Ramsauer isn't helping at all here.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: German Transport Minister Threatens SZG

Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:05 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 1):
yeah. People in Austria, and especially us in Salzburg tend to have a thing against Germans.

Yeah, I realised that when I read this.

Quoting LOWS (Reply 2):
In 2012 there were 17 122 movements, divided by 365 is 46,9 per day. Note that a lot of them happen on Saturdays during the winter, so the average day in May, for example, probably doesn't exceed 20. There are a few flights per day to FRA and VIE (and return) on OS, a few on AB to DUS and one to TXL. Every week, there are a few to CGN (4U) and STN (FR).

As I suspected, this is not a lot at all.

[Edited 2013-11-23 14:13:33]
 
bjorn14
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RE: German Transport Minister Threatens SZG

Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:14 pm

Wasn.t that ZRH Crossair crash partly to blame b/c they couldn't fly in German airspace?
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
prebennorholm
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RE: German Transport Minister Threatens SZG

Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:55 am

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 4):
Wasn.t that ZRH Crossair crash partly to blame b/c they couldn't fly in German airspace?

LX3597 would have landed on ZRH RWY 14 with approach partly over Germany, if it had not been a few minutes late and couldn't make it before RWY 14 closed at 10pm due to restrictions imposed by Germany.

It crashed in hilly terrain on aproach to RWY 28 at 10:06pm.

It is fair to say that the disaster wouldn't have happened if the German restrictions had not been there, but the cause of the accident was clearly pilot error.

RWY 28 did not have ILS (likely not possible due to terrain), so the pilots relied on VOR and DME, but they messed it up - CFIT into a hilltop.

It is really too bad when neighbor countries cannot agree upon sensible ops at near border airports. Imagine if Sweden treated CPH the same way Germany is treating ZRH and SZG.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
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Web500sjc
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RE: German Transport Minister Threatens SZG

Sun Nov 24, 2013 2:03 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 5):

Too bad no one can do that to German airports...they might be singin a different tune.

I wonder if Salzburg can start building a RNP approach such that the approach flies along the border to the airport (similar to the river approaches to DCA) other than that sort of approach, I can't see SZG being a viable airport becuase it would be limited to one instrument approach with high minimums.
Boiler Up!
 
spottingpete93
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RE: German Transport Minister Threatens SZG

Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:18 am

A prime example of why we need European Single Sky as quickly as possible!

Passport controls have been removed at the land border between Austria and Germany on the ground due to "progress"...

...so why should aircraft still have to adhere to outdated airspace borders?
 
factsonly
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RE: German Transport Minister Threatens SZG

Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:26 am

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 6):
Too bad no one can do that to German airports...they might be singin a different tune.

Oh they can.....but regretfully it is military rather than a civilian airport.

The airport concerned is Geilenkirchen Airbase in Germany, the approach is 100% over the Netherlands.


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bjorn14
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RE: German Transport Minister Threatens SZG

Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:51 am

IIRC, Rwy 28 at ZRH now has ILS as a direct result of thr crash.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: German Transport Minister Threatens SZG

Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:23 am

Ramsauer won't be in office any longer as soon as the new cabinet is put together. This will be a non-issue then.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
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LOWS
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RE: German Transport Minister Threatens SZG

Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:33 am

Quoting ushermittwoch (Reply 10):
Ramsauer won't be in office any longer as soon as the new cabinet is put together. This will be a non-issue then.

Which would explain the sudden push he is making. Is he getting a new office, or is he losing out completely?
 
PanHAM
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RE: German Transport Minister Threatens SZG

Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:48 am

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 6):
Too bad no one can do that to German airports...they might be singin a different tune.

I am afraid you are wrong, we do that ourselves, our nice and friendly NIMBYs take care f that-

.

Quoting factsonly (Reply 8):
The airport concerned is Geilenkirchen Airbase in Germany, the approach is 100% over the Netherlands.

Geilenkirchen is a NATO base with the based aircraft registered in Luxemburg which is a Benelux Country.


Now to our Mr. Ram Sau er, the same person who played a Major role in closing European air space completely for about 10 days because some unspeakable volcano erupted in Iceland. Totally unnessary as it turned out later. At least it gave me and about 40 others an experience of touring a completely sielnt FRA Airport. Might happen again but that's another Story.

If you have such People in your Party you do not Need enemies. Now, LOWS, you have my fullest Sympathie and you can rest assured, that this BS won't happen.

BTW, I can speak Austrian as well, and I like Paradeiser as well as Powidl with Schlagobers.



 
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
flyingalex
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RE: German Transport Minister Threatens SZG

Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:54 am

Quoting factsonly (Reply 8):
Oh they can.....but regretfully it is military rather than a civilian airport.

The airport concerned is Geilenkirchen Airbase in Germany, the approach is 100% over the Netherlands.
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
Geilenkirchen is a NATO base with the based aircraft registered in Luxemburg which is a Benelux Country.

Exactly, there's not much left in Geilenkirchen other than NATO's AWACS aircraft.

On the civilian side, NRN (Weeze) is pretty close to the border. FKB is very close to the French border, but since the runway is more or less parallel to the border, the approaches and departures do not need to enter French airspace. FDH is lucky it's on Lake Constance, otherwise it would certainly have similar issues.

Quoting ushermittwoch (Reply 10):
Ramsauer won't be in office any longer as soon as the new cabinet is put together. This will be a non-issue then.
Quoting LOWS (Reply 11):
Which would explain the sudden push he is making. Is he getting a new office, or is he losing out completely?

I'm pretty sure he will lose out completely. He has been ineffective and unpopular, and he will be turning 60 next year. I think the CSU has other candidates for ministries which they would rather give post to.
Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar!
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: German Transport Minister Threatens SZG

Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:41 pm

Word on the street is that he will get booted completely because Seehofer doesn't like him too much.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: German Transport Minister Threatens SZG

Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:46 pm

SO it seems in the end that SZG wont have to worry too much.
 
vfw614
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RE: German Transport Minister Threatens SZG

Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:53 pm

Quite honestly, I do not think he is picking up that issue as a private vendetta, so I doubt things will necessarily change only because another person is running the ministry. I suppose a major reason for the dispute is that the movements take place in an area with a lot of tourism where noise is a much bigger issue than it is at other airports. Generally speaking, the Bavarian conservatives are currently taking a tougher stance against the Austrians allegedly benefitting from neighboring Germany - see the demand to introduce a road tax in Germany because the Germans have to pay when crossing the border to Austria (and Germany). So a bit of Austria-bashing seems to be en vogue at the moment with politicians deep south in Germany.

[Edited 2013-11-24 05:56:21]

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