Royal Jordanian Plans LAX, MIA Relaunches

MAH4546 · Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:25 pm

Royal Jordanian has filed with Austrian air authorities to begin service between Amman and both Miami and Los Angeles via Vienna with a targeted start in mid-2014.

http://www.ch-aviation.ch/portal/new...nian-eyes-vienna-us-traffic-rights

This would be a return to both cities for Royal Jordanian, which flew to Miami and Los Angeles in the early 1990's. Miami was served via Vienna then, too.

The777Man · Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:32 pm

Does RJ have traffic rights already from Austria or did they have them previously ? Why would Austria all of a sudden give traffic rights to RJ ?

Would be nice it happened but I don't it's very likely.

The777Man

LAXintl · Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:40 pm

Considering the touch and go financial state of the carrier and its continued reduction of long-haul flying in favor of growing regional links, I don't see a such longhaul ventures coming to fruition.

Asking for an update to bilateral and actually using such rights are two things.

Btw - what Jordan is asking for specifically is 3x weekly beyond rights to MIA or LAX. That would be in addition to their already 7 weekly existing and unused JFK authority.

Byrdluvs747 · Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:50 pm

It will be nice to have another OW carrier at LAX.

uberflieger · Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:53 pm

love when airlines do unusual routings

can they fill a widebody AMM-VIE? or would the plane be based in VIE and only do the VIE-USA legs?

flyyul · Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:58 pm

cancellating YUL/DTW?

MAH4546 · Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:07 pm

Quoting The777Man (Reply 1):
Does RJ have traffic rights already from Austria or did they have them previously ?

They currently hold Austria-U.S. traffic rights, but now to LA/Miami.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
Asking for an update to bilateral and actually using such rights are two things.

True, but both routes have been rumored for a while now since RJ's entry into OW. Precarious state or not, RJ still has to look at how to maximize it's networks. But I do agree that both these routes seem odd in routing them via Vienna instead of just non-stop.

On one hand neither LA nor Miami seem like the most logical next expansion point for RJ long-haul.

On the other hand, expanding to OW hubs like MIA and LAX could be a safer bet than adding other cities.

thomasphoto60 · Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:28 pm

While before my time in Houston however I believe that RJ (ALIA back then) had a AMM/VIEJFK/IAH service back in the late 70s. While it would be nice to see a return, I suspect that IAH-Middle East is likely at tapped with EK, QR and TK at this point.

[Edited 2013-11-25 14:29:34]

IrishAyes · Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:39 pm

Yeah, right. To compete against two big-leagues in the ME3 that will launch nonstop flights to both cities from AUH and DOH in the near future?

Good luck to them...

LAXdude1023 · Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:45 pm

Hmm...well if this actually comes to fruition:

1) MIA-AMM will be full of TLV bound traffic. Perhaps that, plus OneWorld connections will be enough to carry it through this time. Those are the only reasons this might work.

2) LAX-AMM will be hard to make a penny off of. With TLV served plus EK and EY service, I cant see how it will work.

OB1504 · Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:15 pm

Could the 787 fly AMM-MIA nonstop?

Quoting irishayes (Reply 8):
Yeah, right. To compete against two big-leagues in the ME3 that will launch nonstop flights to both cities from AUH and DOH in the near future?

Haven't yet heard anything about AUH-MIA, but it would be nice.

airbazar · Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:27 pm

Quoting The777Man (Reply 1):
Does RJ have traffic rights already from Austria or did they have them previously ? Why would Austria all of a sudden give traffic rights to RJ ?

What threat does it pose to OS? None that I can see. OS does not serve either MIA or LAX. I only see positives: More business to VIE. More routes from VIE. And more options for passengers.

Miami · Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:11 am

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 10):
Haven't yet heard anything about AUH-MIA, but it would be nice.

They planned MIA or announced it but later decided to canceled. But indeed it will be nice, but if EY announced MIA, I doubt EK will announce MIA

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 10):
Could the 787 fly AMM-MIA nonstop?

Yes.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 11):
OS does not serve either MIA or LAX. I only see positives: More business to VIE. More routes from VIE. And more options for passengers.

Agreed.

MAH4546 · Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:38 am

Quoting Miami (Reply 12):
They planned MIA or announced it but later decided to canceled.

Never announced. Ethiad Cargo already flies to MIA, though, as I'm sure you know.

Quoting Miami (Reply 12):
I doubt EK will announce MIA

It's absolutely in the works.

Miami · Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:41 am

Any particular reason why RJ is planning LAX and MIA via AMM?

Thenoflyzone · Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:16 pm

Quoting irishayes (Reply 8):
Yeah, right. To compete against two big-leagues in the ME3 that will launch nonstop flights to both cities from AUH and DOH in the near future?

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 10):
Haven't yet heard anything about AUH-MIA, but it would be nice.

he meant AUH-LAX with EY, and DOH-MIA with QR, both of which will launch next June.

As for RJ,

Both AMM-LAX and AMM-MIA are doable non stop with the A342. The A332 doesn't have the legs for LAX, but a non stop to MIA is doable.

The only reason why i see them operating via VIE is because they want to tap into the VIE-LAX and VIE-MIA markets, both of which are not served at the moment.

Not saying it will happen, but it might. After all, they do have 11 787s on order. They will need to send these birds somewhere besides HKG, JFK, YUL, DTW, ORD, BKK and KUL, considering that a lot of these routes (if not all) arent daily.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2013-11-26 05:19:05]

MaverickM11 · Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:24 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Thread starter):
This would be a return to both cities for Royal Jordanian, which flew to Miami and Los Angeles in the early 1990's. Miami was served via Vienna then, too.

The terrible ideas that airlines repeat despite decades of experience otherwise never cease to amaze me. I thought RJ used AMS for flights to the US back in the 90s?

thegivenone · Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:29 pm

Woaa, as a VIE resident, that would be an amazing connection to see at our airport.

N1120A · Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:01 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 9):
2) LAX-AMM will be hard to make a penny off of. With TLV served plus EK and EY service, I cant see how it will work.

THR is at least as important as TLV. Also, EVN.

airbazar · Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:05 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 16):
The terrible ideas that airlines repeat despite decades of experience otherwise never cease to amaze me. I thought RJ used AMS for flights to the US back in the 90s?

If an airline drops a route because the cost outweighs the revenue side of the operation it would only make sense that they would return if they can lower the cost such as operating a much more efficient airplane. That's my theory at least

enilria · Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:15 pm

Quoting uberflieger (Reply 4):
can they fill a widebody AMM-VIE?

I guess with the OS code it might be something, but hard to see it working.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 5):
cancellating

Coining a new word?

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 6):
They currently hold Austria-U.S. traffic rights, but now to LA/Miami.

How do they have only Austria rights and not something like Munich or London?

YULWinterSkies · Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:16 pm

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 10):
Could the 787 fly AMM-MIA nonstop?

Yes, and so can their A340-200.

Quoting irishayes (Reply 8):
Yeah, right. To compete against two big-leagues in the ME3 that will launch nonstop flights to both cities from AUH and DOH in the near future?

Good luck to them...

And what else you think they should do? Sit there, cry and do nothing...

Quoting flyyul (Reply 5):
cancellating YUL/DTW?

What makes you think so? Both cities have large and quite wealthy Middle-Eastern communities, who have strong ties with their countries.
Don't quote me on this, but I seem to recall that YUL has been successful from the very beginning.

The777Man · Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:31 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 11):
What threat does it pose to OS? None that I can see. OS does not serve either MIA or LAX. I only see positives: More business to VIE. More routes from VIE. And more options for passengers.

A nonstop service by RJ will take away connecting traffic on OS and LH via MUC/FRA/ORD/IAD etc so why on earth would OS want to give traffic away to another airline and alliance ?

I'm not so sure how much clout OS/LH has with Austria but I still doubt that this would happen via VIE.

We will see.

The777Man

MAH4546 · Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:37 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 16):
I thought RJ used AMS for flights to the US back in the 90s?

Miami was definitely via Vienna; Chicago was via Amsterdam and I think Detroit used to be via Shannon?

Quoting enilria (Reply 20):
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 6):They currently hold Austria-U.S. traffic rights, but now to LA/Miami.
How do they have only Austria rights and not something like Munich or London?

Not all countries negotiate traffic rights with the entire of EU/Switzerland/Norway.

LAXdude1023 · Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:41 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 13):
It's absolutely in the works.

I find it hard to believe MIA can support two Gulf carriers plus RJ. I dont think it can. Unless one of them is being proped up by a government or another subsidy. I think the market can stabilize with QR and RJ, but the market isnt larger nor high yielding enough for all three.

MAH4546 · Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:49 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 24):
I find it hard to believe MIA can support two Gulf carriers plus RJ. I dont think it can. Unless one of them is being proped up by a government or another subsidy. I think the market can stabilize with QR and RJ, but the market isnt larger nor high yielding enough for all three.

I agree in theory, but in practice these carriers haven't kicked each other out of small markets yet, and MIA probably won't be any different. I also don't agree that RJ in any way competes with these. If RJ were to return, it's probably going to rely on traffic to/from just three cities - Vienna, Tel Aviv and Amman, and EK/QR don't compete with that. RJ, like TK, I see as just another European carrier in the mix. Plus, EK and QR are in fact propped up.

LAXdude1023 · Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:05 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 25):
l markets yet, and MIA probably won't be any different. I also don't agree that RJ in any way competes with these. If RJ were to return, it's probably going to rely on traffic to/from just three cities - Vienna, Tel Aviv and Amman

My first thought about RJ service to MIA was TLV. If anything, that is what will keep it going.

uberflieger · Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:16 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 26):
My first thought about RJ service to MIA was TLV

TLV-AMM-VIE-MIA? have a hard time seeing how this can compete with 1 stops by a number of airlines, or combos like LY TLV-CDG & AA CDG-MIA

IrishAyes · Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:27 pm

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 21):
And what else you think they should do? Sit there, cry and do nothing...

There's that option, or they can start 1-stop service to Amman with layovers in random, non-OneWorld European markets and lose buckets of money. Knock yourself out.

LAXdude1023 · Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:27 pm

Quoting uberflieger (Reply 27):
TLV-AMM-VIE-MIA? have a hard time seeing how this can compete with 1 stops by a number of airlines, or combos like LY TLV-CDG & AA CDG-MIA

Yep. Its pretty much useless unless they can fly AMM-MIA.

MAH4546 · Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:39 pm

Quoting irishayes (Reply 28):
non-OneWorld European markets and lose buckets of money.

oneWorld member Niki is hubbed in Vienna, is Vienna's second largest carrier, and serves around 45 or so cities from VIE.

Not that I think that flying via VIE is a good idea. It's not, but VIE is a OW hub. One of the smaller ones, but a hub nonetheless.

If RJ wants to take a serious attempt at either Miami or Los Angeles, it should fly three 787s a week non-stop to Amman. It might work.

[Edited 2013-11-26 13:41:19]

IrishAyes · Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:48 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 30):
oneWorld member Niki is hubbed in Vienna, is Vienna's second largest carrier, and serves around 45 or so cities from VIE.

NIKI's market share at VIE is roughly 8.6%. Combined with airberlin, the share is 15.8%. OS is still over three times larger.

Based on that data alone, Lufthansa has roughly the same amount of share at Zurich, which is VIE's most comparable airport. Does LH consider ZRH a hub?

MAH4546 · Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:03 pm

Quoting irishayes (Reply 31):
NIKI's market share at VIE is roughly 8.6%. Combined with airberlin, the share is 15.8%. OS is still over three times larger.

And?

Quoting irishayes (Reply 31):
Based on that data alone, Lufthansa has roughly the same amount of share at Zurich, which is VIE's most comparable airport. Does LH consider ZRH a hub?

So hub is based purely on market share? I thought it was based on whether or not an airline uses the facility as a primary means of transiting passengers between two flights.

And ZRH is absolutely a hub for Lufthansa Group - I'm sure plenty of LH passengers are transiting to LX long-haul via ZRH.

Viscount724 · Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:08 pm

Quoting flyyul (Reply 5):
cancelling YUL/DTW?

They don't appear to sell 5th freedom traffic on that sector.

[Edited 2013-11-26 14:09:13]

MAH4546 · Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:13 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 33):
Quoting flyyul (Reply 5):cancelling YUL/DTW?
They don't appear to sell 5th freedom traffic on that sector.

I think he mean cancelling the destinations all together.

RJ does have 5th freedom on DTW-YUL, but, as you mentioned, does not sell seats on that sector. For some reason I swear that RJ sold ORD-YUL seats when it flew that, but I can't remember for sure.

IrishAyes · Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:45 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 32):
So hub is based purely on market share? I thought it was based on whether or not an airline uses the facility as a primary means of transiting passengers between two flights.

I should have put it in perspective because yes, market share can be misleading.

Frequencies. That's a bit more concrete.

EasyJet offers more frequencies and ASMs out of AMS than NIKI does at VIE.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 32):
And ZRH is absolutely a hub for Lufthansa Group

I knew you would say this, because yes, in theory it is a hub for LH GROUP, but not a hub for Deutsche Lufthansa, the German airline.

dennys · Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:18 am

Quote : thenoflyzone :

Both AMM-LAX and AMM-MIA are doable non stop with the A342. The A332 doesn't have the legs for LAX, but a non stop to MIA is doable.

This seems to me quite true RJ and AR is actually the only carrier to know how to use A342 .

Miami · Fri Nov 29, 2013 4:29 am

I think most of us can agree that RJ will start MIA first UNLESS RJ has the right aircraft with the right legs to do LAX before MIA or maybe they can start both the same time.
I really wished we had more info..

RJ's 787 deliveries doesn't start until late 2014 to early 2015 if I'm not mistaken.

-Miami

[Edited 2013-11-28 20:31:54]

[Edited 2013-11-28 20:32:27]

KLAXAirport · Sat Nov 30, 2013 12:33 am

It would be awesome to get RJ from AMM and VIE at LAX. However, I see it more realistic to restart the service to MIA. RJ would have tough competition at LAX with EK,EY, LY and connections to VIE from like LHR and FRA. If my memory serves, wasn't OZ looking to jump into LAX?

Cheers,
KLAXAirport

Miami · Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:02 pm

ExMiami.org is also reporting it. http://exmiami.org/index.php/royal-j...ning-nonstop-miami-vienna-flights/

They said it's likely to be approved..?

macc · Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:42 pm

contract was signed now according to derstandard.at

really a rather weird thing. as AB is struggling to fill MIA and LAX out of DUS, i am sceptic that HG will make the feeder for RJ.

flymia · Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:46 pm

Quoting macc (Reply 40):

really a rather weird thing. as AB is struggling to fill MIA and LAX out of DUS,

They are? Never heard that, at least for MIA. Where did you hear/read this?

Quoting macc (Reply 40):
i am sceptic that HG will make the feeder for RJ.

Whether it works or not I agree but they can be a feeder both being members of OW.

MAH4546 · Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:28 pm

Quoting macc (Reply 40):
as AB is struggling to fill MIA and LAX out of DUS, i am sceptic that HG will make the feeder for RJ.

I can't speak for LAX, but you couldn't be more wrong about MIA, where in fiscal year 2013 airberlin averaged a 96% annual load factor.

Miami · Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:30 pm

Quoting macc (Reply 40):
as AB is struggling to fill MIA and LAX out of DUS

I can't say anything for LAX. But AB is NOT struggling at MIA from DUS. They have daily flights with an excellent load factor.

Quoting macc (Reply 40):
contract was signed now according to derstandard.at

That's great news. I think.. I just read it thanks to Google Translator and it seems to be good news. Flights are expected to start in May 2014 on board a A330 or 787 with seven times a week, I'm assuming they mean daily??

MAH4546 · Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:39 pm

Quoting Miami (Reply 43):
Flights are expected to start in May 2014 on board a A330 or 787 with seven times a week, I'm assuming they mean daily??

A daily flight split between MIA and LAX.

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