Emirates A380 Service To LAX

KarelXWB · Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:25 am

Emirates today started LAX A380 service (EK215/EK216), replacing the 77W on this 15+ hours route. The flight is currently being operated by A6-EEO, one of EK newest A380s.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/U...5/history/20131202/0420Z/OMDB/KLAX

worldrider · Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:55 am

Thanks for the link. That's a looong flight, is it the longuest A380 route operated so far?
ist it load restricted?

KarelXWB · Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:00 am

I believe there is a payload penalty, but I'm not sure how much.

JAAlbert · Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:48 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 2):
I believe there is a payload penalty, but I'm not sure how much.

Is the penalty in persons or cargo?

The A380 is probably much more comfortable than the 77W. But how many LA folks actually fly to Dubai - or need to make a connection thru Dubai each day?

Cipango · Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:04 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 3):
But how many LA folks actually fly to Dubai - or need to make a connection thru Dubai each day?

Its not about Dubai. It's about the connections.

Clearly more than a few fly through Dubai or else this wouldn't be upgraded to an A380.

Dubai is a great connection for the Indian Subcontinent, Middle East and Africa. All of which are too far for modern aircrafts to fly, albeit profitably.

Stitch · Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:07 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
The flight is currently being operated by A6-EEO, one of EK newest A380s.

Do we know if she is a 569t MTOW airframe, or is it the 573t model?

KarelXWB · Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:11 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
Do we know if she is a 569t MTOW airframe, or is it the 573t model?

Don't know yet. The 573/575t version should also have the higher thrust GP7272 engine, making it an A380-862, but I can't find any information about it.

chepos · Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:11 pm

DXB-LAX-DXB is all about connections, the same can be said for most of the EK's North American destinations.
When I flew SFO-DXB most pax on the flight were making connections past DXB, mostly to India, Pakistan and throughout the ME.

sunrisevalley · Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:48 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 6):
Don't know yet. The 573/575t version should also have the higher thrust GP7272 engine, making it an A380-862, but I can't find any information about it.

Also it has a DOW some 4t less than the 569t version. From Piano-X the 575t version at 293t DOW will haul 55.5t (49t passenger, 6.5t freight ) on a 161/2 -hr segment which covers most days DXB-LAX. The 569t version with heavier DOW would be limited to ~ 415 passengers.

KarelXWB · Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:24 pm

The A380 is about to land.

sunrisevalley · Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:33 pm

The rego. was A6 EEO apparently delivered Oct 29 2013.

KarelXWB · Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:40 pm

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 8):
Also it has a DOW some 4t less than the 569t version. From Piano-X the 575t version at 293t DOW will haul 55.5t (49t passenger, 6.5t freight ) on a 161/2 -hr segment which covers most days DXB-LAX. The 569t version with heavier DOW would be limited to ~ 415 passengers.

Thanks. Assuming 95kg per passenger we have 95 * 489 = 4.65t pax, fits within your 49t figure.

Flightsimboy · Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:04 pm

Another route for the all the exclusive A380 crews at EK!! Though I think now they are cross training crews between all aircraft types.

boysteve · Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:12 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 3):
Is the penalty in persons or cargo?

Err well it can be in whatever EK choose of course. People weigh something just like cargo does!

sunrisevalley · Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:47 pm

Checking Flight Aware it appears that they flew the sector eastbound, some 9400nm in 15hrs 42min. If so they had some very good tail winds.

Qantas744er · Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:53 pm

Straight from a EK A380 pilot

"From -EEF on we are seeing about 600 to 700kg/hr saving in burn, depending on sector length. The latest ones are outdoing that by about another 150kg/hr. DOWs have also reduced by about 2 to 3t from the original ones"

RickNRoll · Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:04 am

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 3):
The A380 is probably much more comfortable than the 77W. But how many LA folks actually fly to Dubai - or need to make a connection thru Dubai each day?

Enough to upgauge from a 77W to an A380.

tomcat · Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:52 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 6):
Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):Do we know if she is a 569t MTOW airframe, or is it the 573t model?
Don't know yet. The 573/575t version should also have the higher thrust GP7272 engine, making it an A380-862, but I can't find any information about it.

Seems like she is an A380-861 per the PlaneSpotters:
http://www.planespotters.net/Product...irbus/A380/136,A6-EEO-Emirates.php

Quoting qantas744er (Reply 15):
From -EEF on we are seeing about 600 to 700kg/hr saving in burn

Sounds like a bit exagerated. It would mean a 4-5% fuel burn saving. Hard to believe. What would explain such an improvement?

sunrisevalley · Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:06 am

Quoting qantas744er (Reply 15):
Straight from a EK A380 pilot

"From -EEF on we are seeing about 600 to 700kg/hr saving in burn, depending on sector length. The latest ones are outdoing that by about another 150kg/hr. DOWs have also reduced by about 2 to 3t from the original ones"

Interesting stuff. Assume still 569t MTOW but with lower DOW , improved fuel burn slated for the 575t version said to be ~ 3%. and I believe a slight reduction in drag . I can find 600kg/hr on the DXB-LAX sector. Clearly there is probably more. More important this will allow max passenger load on the sector.

[Edited 2013-12-02 19:20:14]

tomcat · Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:12 am

EEO has a 575t MTOW per page II-A-3 of the following document:
http://www.ise.ie/debt_documents/Pro...38-a7ec-4177-a403-3c6939d7f6c8.PDF

EEL and EEM also have a 575t MTOW.

JAAlbert · Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:42 am

What does DOW stand for?

Stitch · Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:44 am

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 20):
What does DOW stand for?

Dry Operating Weight - essentially the weight of the airframe in customer configuration with catering and other ancillaries, but not fuel or payload (freight / passengers / baggage).

ferpe · Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:51 am

Quoting qantas744er (Reply 15):
"From -EEF on we are seeing about 600 to 700kg/hr saving in burn, depending on sector length. The latest ones are outdoing that by about another 150kg/hr. DOWs have also reduced by about 2 to 3t from the original ones"

From when did Airbus adjust the wing camber? I think it might be part of that fuel burn reduction. Has there been any PIPs on the 7270 up until now?

astuteman · Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:58 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
Emirates today started LAX A380 service (EK215/EK216), replacing the 77W on this 15+ hours route.

A 4-engine VLA replacing a "big twin"? hat can't be right ..

Seriously though, this was always on the cards once EK had a) enough planes and b) the 575t variant

Quoting tomcat (Reply 17):
Sounds like a bit exagerated. It would mean a 4-5% fuel burn saving. Hard to believe. What would explain such an improvement?

The engines have improved at least 2% since EIS. The wing camber changes are good for close to 1%. And as sunrisevalley points out, the Dry Operating weight has come down by 5 tonnes (3t from the airframe and 2t from the cabin - mainly shower water and (would you believe) magazines... That should account for a c. 1% reduction further

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 18):
improved fuel burn slated for the 575t version said to be ~ 3%. and I believe a slight reduction in drag.I can find 600kg/hr on the DXB-LAX sector

Indeed.

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 18):
More important this will allow max passenger load on the sector.

Allowing a full pax load is crucial to this deployment I would think. 490 pax vs the 320 that the 773ER is said to be restricted to..
And for me the vital aspect of that is that this is a very luxuriously outfitted airfame - showers, teak inlaid bars, you name it. All that space in the seating.
The complete opposite of a "cattle car.

There are airlines out there running A380's with similar pax numbers that have DOW's some 7 to 8 tonnes lighter than EK's airframe.
SQ's or QF's initial birds would have managed this route.
Just for perspective.
EK's A380 cabin outfit is VERY heavy

Quoting ferpe (Reply 22):
From when did Airbus adjust the wing camber?

with the advent of the 575 tonner - i.e now

Rgds

[Edited 2013-12-02 22:59:01]

Gemuser · Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:17 am

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 14):
Checking Flight Aware it appears that they flew the sector eastbound, some 9400nm in 15hrs 42min. If so they had some very good tail winds.

Got anymore details of the actual route? I assume it was very polar?
Gemuser

migair54 · Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:42 am

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 14):
Checking Flight Aware it appears that they flew the sector eastbound, some 9400nm in 15hrs 42min. If so they had some very good tail winds.

It is not East bound it a direct polar route,http://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAE215/history/20131202/0420Z/OMDB/KLAX

I would love to do one of this routes over the big north, views must be amazing the whole flight, specially during the summer when is basically all the time day.

1400mph · Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:17 am

Quoting astuteman (Reply 23):
And for me the vital aspect of that is that this is a very luxuriously outfitted airfame - showers, teak inlaid bars, you name it. All that space in the seating.
The complete opposite of a "cattle car

Sounds wonderful. Must be hard though leaving such comfort for the rigours of a transit before reaching your final destination. Shame such a high percentage of their passengers are not able to travel non-stop. That too is a luxury !

UAEflyer · Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:25 am

From an EK insider, there will be around 80 ecnomy seats empty in each fligh on LAX route.

I am sure there is also some restriciton on the cargo too, EK recently increased tickets price from DXB to LAX

TC957 · Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:30 am

I'm wondering if SQ might re-instate non-stop SIN - LAX service with their next batch of A380's coming given the improvements in performance / less DOW and the ( presumably ) less heavy cabin fitments compared to EK's.
Could the extra 400 or so nm range required over what DXB - LAX is be squeezed out ?

ferpe · Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:34 am

Quoting UAEflyer (Reply 27):
From an EK insider, there will be around 80 ecnomy seats empty in each fligh on LAX route.

If they leave pax behind we can assume they take no cargo beyond the bags. So they miss 8t to load the frame full, at 80% loadfactor it would be close to 100 pax (489 or 494 pax version), ie the empty seats would be within normal load-factor margin. But then this is EK and A380 and then normal load-factors can be surpassed, so yes they leave revenue behind many days.

KarelXWB · Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:54 am

Quoting tomcat (Reply 17):
Seems like she is an A380-861 per the PlaneSpotters:

Hard to believe, I assume Planespotters copied the data from the previous airframes.

Quoting tomcat (Reply 19):
EEO has a 575t MTOW per page II-A-3 of the following document:

Excellent find, thank you.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 22):
From when did Airbus adjust the wing camber? I think it might be part of that fuel burn reduction. Has there been any PIPs on the 7270 up until now?

In case of Emirates, the increased wing twist was introduced with MSN113 (A6-EEF).

Quoting UAEflyer (Reply 27):
From an EK insider, there will be around 80 ecnomy seats empty in each fligh on LAX route.

I believe the 77W served this route with 40 blocked seats, so we're looking at 314 vs 449 seats. An increase of 135 seats on this route.

worldrider · Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:52 am

Quoting UAEflyer (Reply 27):

Yep increased fares not due to payload restrictions but because passengers are inlined to pay higher fares
for flying on a more spacious and well fitted A380 as opposed to the 77W.

Someone83 · Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:05 am

Quoting ferpe (Reply 22):
From when did Airbus adjust the wing camber?

Quoting astuteman (Reply 23):
with the advent of the 575 tonner - i.e now

Wasn't BA's first A380 the first assembled with the improved wing chamber?

DarkSnowyNight · Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:17 am

Quoting UAEflyer (Reply 27):
I am sure there is also some restriciton on the cargo too, EK recently increased tickets price from DXB to LAX

Just to DXB, or points beyond? I connect through there a lot from LAX and haven't seen any fare increases to JNB, BKK or CPT for the next six months (those are really the only ones I need out of EK, so I really don't know what it's doing elsewhere...)

KarelXWB · Tue Dec 03, 2013 11:46 am

Emirates published a video of the landing in LAX:

http://youtu.be/2lRuy9V7OiI

ojas · Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:47 pm

Quoting UAEflyer (Reply 27):
From an EK insider, there will be around 80 ecnomy seats empty in each fligh on LAX route.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 30):
I believe the 77W served this route with 40 blocked seats, so we're looking at 314 vs 449 seats. An increase of 135 seats on this route.

The B77Ws used to go on a payload restriction of 25 - 30 seats; not more than that. 40 blocked seats is a one off thing in extreme scenarios.

Similarly the newer version of the A380 will go on almost full payload of passengers however no revenue cargo. They may have to drop at best 3-4 passengers. therefore you can expect the A380 to carry 485 odd passengers both way.

KarelXWB · Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:55 pm

Quoting ojas (Reply 35):
Similarly the newer version of the A380 will go on almost full payload of passengers however no revenue cargo. They may have to drop at best 3-4 passengers. therefore you can expect the A380 to carry 485 odd passengers both way.

Then why claims a source close to EK that they block 80 seats?

parapente · Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:08 pm

Then why claims a source close to EK that they block 80 seats?

Well it's just that -"claims a source". Could be right could be 100% wrong! The facts will out in good time,

But generally this plane upgrade is the standard Emirates plan just repeating itself over and over again from one destination to the next. No wonder they would have ordered more if they had had the space.

ojas · Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:09 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 36):
Then why claims a source close to EK that they block 80 seats?

I have no idea, however what I posted is absolutely correct.

The older versions of the A380 would take a payload of maximum 40 passengers if they were to do DXB - LAX.

Rest be assured the 517 seater will not do LAX as there aren't any crew rests there.

KarelXWB · Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:18 pm

Quoting ojas (Reply 38):
Rest be assured the 517 seater will not do LAX as there aren't any crew rests there.

Correct.

Quoting ojas (Reply 38):
The older versions of the A380 would take a payload of maximum 40 passengers if they were to do DXB - LAX.

Do you have any idea how many 575t A380s EK will take?

Quoting ojas (Reply 38):
I have no idea, however what I posted is absolutely correct.

Thanks.

hohd · Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:20 pm

EK will probably take the load penalty on passengers. The flight will rarely be full, most of the time they will have load factors less than 90%, so the load penalty on passengers will not really affect them much.

zeke · Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:45 pm

Quoting ojas (Reply 35):
Similarly the newer version of the A380 will go on almost full payload of passengers however no revenue cargo. They may have to drop at best 3-4 passengers. therefore you can expect the A380 to carry 485 odd passengers both way.

Not sure where you are getting your data from, the new A380s at EK will carry the design payload out to 15+ hours. EK has been saying that the A380s are lifting more passengers AND revenue cargo to the US than the 77Ws can. The new A380s have a 3t higher MZFW/MLW, and 6t higher MTOW (or 15t if you are using the 560t baseline).

ojas · Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:52 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 41):
Not sure where you are getting your data from, the new A380s at EK will carry the design payload out to 15+ hours. EK has been saying that the A380s are lifting more passengers AND revenue cargo to the US than the 77Ws can. The new A380s have a 3t higher MZFW/MLW, and 6t higher MTOW (or 15t if you are using the 560t baseline).

True, but doesn't weather, temperature, flight et al affect payload as well?

This is the winter season, in summers in temperatures 40 C and above the hit might be higher.

However as I have posted earlier, these are the figures with which EK carries/will carry to and fro from LAX.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 39):
Do you have any idea how many 575t A380s EK will take?

Check reply #38

[Edited 2013-12-03 06:56:45]

KarelXWB · Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:01 pm

Quoting ojas (Reply 42):
Check reply #38

Sorry, I meant how many aircraft, not the pax count.

sunrisevalley · Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:04 pm

Quoting UAEflyer (Reply 27):
From an EK insider, there will be around 80 ecnomy seats empty in each fligh on LAX route.

This is consistent with EK's policy of not selling more seats than they can haul on a "bad day" . This reduced passenger load will allow for an 8500nm ESAD / 181/2 hr day. If on the day it is a 16hr day they can upload additional payload in the form of cargo.

sunrisevalley · Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:44 pm

Quoting ojas (Reply 42):
True, but doesn't weather, temperature, flight et al affect payload as well?

running these numbers through Piano-X it is interesting to note that TOW for a 409 seat/ 10t cargo payload for a 16hr sector is about 560t. On a standard 15C day plus 30 C at 575t MTOW the runway length needed is around 11600ft.

AA777223 · Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:09 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 23):
The engines have improved at least 2% since EIS. The wing camber changes are good for close to 1%. And as sunrisevalley points out, the Dry Operating weight has come down by 5 tonnes (3t from the airframe and 2t from the cabin - mainly shower water and (would you believe) magazines... That should account for a c. 1% reduction further

Fascinating stuff. Does that mean these flights don't feature shower service? Or did they just reduce the volume?

KarelXWB · Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:46 pm

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 46):
Fascinating stuff. Does that mean these flights don't feature shower service? Or did they just reduce the volume?

The showers are still active, but Emirates figured out that only 40% of the shower water was being used. Thus no need to fully fill the tanks anymore.

Quoting ojas (Reply 42):
True, but doesn't weather, temperature, flight et al affect payload as well?

They do, but the LAX service departs in the morning to avoid the high temperatures.

astuteman · Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:52 pm

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 46):
Fascinating stuff. Does that mean these flights don't feature shower service? Or did they just reduce the volume?

See Karel's reply. They established that they were transporting around some 1 tonne of water that never got consumed.

The showers are still fully operational

Rgds

ferpe · Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:01 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 23):
the Dry Operating weight has come down by 5 tonnes (3t from the airframe and 2t from the cabin - mainly shower water and (would you believe) magazines... That should account for a c. 1% reduction further

Each tonne of empty weight means a change in efficiency or fuel burn with 0.3% for the A380, so 5 tonnes is 1.5%, good to remember. For our usual crop this figure is around 0.5% per tonne.

Re the route, it is a polar route of 7246nm shortest way, if that takes 16h20m we are talking about on average groundspeed of 445kts ie some 40kts headwind on average given they fly design M of 0.85 . Should they fly M 0.83 we are talking 10kts less average wind. Does all this sound reasonable?

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