User avatar
LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 23925
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:08 pm

Is this yet another sign that the traditional alliances don't work well today ?
Its long been apparent that not all alliance members are equal and that things like JV's have brought on alliances within alliances.



Attending conference in Amsterdam, Aeroflot head of alliances Giorgio Callegari expressed the carriers displeasure with some its its Skyteam relationships.

According to Mr. Callegari, SkyTeam is "basically run by Air France-KLM and Delta" and Aeroflot "belongs in name only".
The carrier apparently has especially strained relation with Delta over codeshare, interline and frequent flyer policies.

SU also been unable to join the Atlantic JV which recently expanded to include Alitalia.

As a result the carrier is looking at what is does next, and apparently is eyeing closer relations including JV's outside of the alliance and in October asked SkyTeam to lift restrictions on cooperation with non member airlines.


Article:
Aeroflot unable to join SkyTeam's trans-Atlantic JV but seeks new option and JVs to Europe & Asia
http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...ion-and-jvs-to-europe--asia-141806

=
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
TYCOON
Posts: 477
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:20 pm

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:26 pm

Just last week there was an interview with the CEO of Aeroflot in a trade journal or business newspaper (unfortunately, I can't remember which one: it was either "Business Traveller" or "Voyage d'Affaires" or the French equivalent of the FT or WSJ "Les Echos") and he was specifically asked if Aeroflot was displeased with Skyteam and sought exit...
He categorically denied it and said that Aeroflot was very happy with Skyteam and will remain, but he did say that in certain markets they may seek bilateral marketing arrangements. The name Callegari was mentionned in the interview since he was the one who raised the issue of Aeroflot's status in Skyteam. The CEO was quick to dispell that one....
 
User avatar
mercure1
Posts: 4512
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:33 pm

Well yes - AF/KL & DL seem to rule Skyteam to their benefit.

Its seems most alliances have become little clicks by select members.

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 1):
The name Callegari was mentionned in the interview since he was the one who raised the issue of Aeroflot's status in Skyteam. The CEO was quick to dispell that one....

That's good, but Mr. Callegari seems to have made his comments on Wednesday in Amsterdam conference, surely after a trade journal interview was made and published (might be several weeks old).
mercure f-wtcc
 
a380787
Posts: 4573
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:38 pm

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:33 pm

Star would definitely welcome them with open arms (because they won't be able to steal any of LH's traffic)

And it makes sense for Aeroflot too, since PEK is their largest Asian station, and they can partner with AirChina there. It'd be interesting when the airlines hubbing at IAD-SVO-PEK actually alliance with each other.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 23925
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:48 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 3):
Star would definitely welcome them with open arms (because they won't be able to steal any of LH's traffic)

SU can rob LH of quite a bit of traffic, the same that TK does.

Virtually anything to the Far-East and Central Asia region can flow easily over Moscow.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
flyingthe757
Posts: 255
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:44 pm

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:50 pm

Is this yet another sign that the traditional alliances don't work well today ?

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):

This is the second time I have seen this quote in as many days!

I can't see from anything so far posted where that quote bears truth. Yes some alliance members are closer then others, yes some are part of JV's etc, but they and their customers still get the benifits being in an alliance holds.
 
User avatar
mercure1
Posts: 4512
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:55 pm

Quoting flyingthe757 (Reply 5):
but they and their customers still get the benifits being in an alliance holds.

No, not all customer are the same with benefits.

Just look at the growing reduction in frequent flyer benefits.

In Skyteam, DL now treats some its alliance partners no different than simply a basic outside alliance codeshare partner for its FF earnings.

For a customer I think this is quite disturbing as many have tried to remain loyal to respective alliances for years, but now the alliances are no longer treating each others clients the same.
mercure f-wtcc
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 6076
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:03 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):

SU can rob LH of quite a bit of traffic, the same that TK does.

Virtually anything to the Far-East and Central Asia region can flow easily over Moscow.

Are transit visas, obtained in advance, required for Americans? That appears to be the opinion of the U.S. Embassy in Moscow. That takes the 'easily' out of it.
 
MEA-707
Posts: 3736
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 1999 4:51 am

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:09 pm

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 7):
Are transit visas, obtained in advance, required for Americans? That appears to be the opinion of the U.S. Embassy in Moscow. That takes the 'easily' out of it.

No visa issues if you transfer at one airport. Had two seamless transfers this fall without visa or anything, rules should be the same for EU and US passengers. You can't get landside though, if you miss your flight and have to wait 23 hours they will put you in a hotel where you are basically locked and can't leave your floor, Snowden also stayed there for a while.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
User avatar
mercure1
Posts: 4512
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:15 pm

US citizens (and many others) need visa for Turkey also if they desire to enter.

For transit I don't see issue of Moscow, especially as SU improves product and make price attractive for clients. (as TK has done so well).

But no, at end I dont see them in Star.
mercure f-wtcc
 
skiaplg
Posts: 91
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:58 pm

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:16 pm

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 7):
Are transit visas, obtained in advance, required for Americans? That appears to be the opinion of the U.S. Embassy in Moscow. That takes the 'easily' out of it.

That info seems to be out of date, I didn't have to get a transit visa when I flew CDG-SVO-PVG as my transit in SVO was under 24 hours and I wasn't leaving the airport.

I doubt Aeroflot would work well in Star as the report linked above showed Germany being their largest European market, and without needing transit visas and with Aeroflot's usually very reasonable fares from Europe to China, they could easily take market share away from LH. Aeroflot needs to find a codeshare or interline partner other than Delta in the US: JetBlue or Virgin America? Surely Skyteam would be fine with that seeing as China Airlines and Korean Air Interline with JetBlue already, and they plus Aeromexico I believe work with Virgin America as well?
 
SA7700
Posts: 2930
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:38 pm

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:29 pm

Quoting skiaplg (Reply 10):
interline partner other than Delta in the US: JetBlue or Virgin America?

SU interlines with the following carriers in Northern America: AA, AC, AM, DL and UA. There may be more, but these were the obvious ones at a quick glance.


Regards,

SA7700

Source: KVS
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
TYCOON
Posts: 477
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:20 pm

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:33 pm

Mercure1, the interview with the CEO of Aeroflot was AFTER the conference. I am pretty sure it was Les Echos, a French daily business newspaper... as reference was made to Callegari's comments. I will try to see if I can dig it up... I believe the CEO represented that they have done studies and that the loss of revenue from leaving the alliance would amount to roughly €20 million per annum.
If I am able to dig it up, I will post here.


Here it is... in French... dateline 28 November...
http://www.lesechos.fr/entreprises-s...-compagnies-europeennes-633019.php

Question: Do you want to leave the Skyteam alliance?
Response from the CEO of Aeroflot "No. We are satisfied with our membership in Skyteam and our cooperation with Air France. But we want to be able to cooperate with other alliances...."

[Edited 2013-12-02 09:59:49 by SA7700]
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:56 pm

No surprise. The Eurolegacies and the big North American carriers are using their alliance to control and box in their partners. And now their partners are wising up to the game.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 23925
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Mon Dec 02, 2013 6:05 pm

I think some of you are reading comments of Callegari the wrong way.

He did not say SU was leaving Skyteam - matter of fact in the linked thread starter article there was mention Oliver Wyman Group study commissioned by the airline which saw a net benefit with Skyteam.

What Callegari is discussing is the difficulty SU is having working with some of the members of the alliances, and like any company SU seeks to grow its revenues and Skyteam is hampering this. To work around such roadblocks, the carrier is now instead looking at cooperation including up to JV's with carriers outside the alliance.

Yes such move might create a bigger fracture with the alliance, but I think SU rightfully must do what it believes is best for its future, and not be constrained with what it views is a AF/KL - DL benefiting grouping.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 9673
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Mon Dec 02, 2013 6:54 pm

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 12):
Question: Do you want to leave the Skyteam alliance?
Response from the CEO of Aeroflot "No. We are satisfied with our membership in Skyteam and our cooperation with Air France. But we want to be able to cooperate with other alliances...."

Given that you cannot cooperate with other alliances without leaving SkyTeam it would imply that SU wishes to be independent and straddle them all.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18310
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:13 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 2):
Well yes - AF/KL & DL seem to rule Skyteam to their benefit.

Its seems most alliances have become little clicks by select members.

Somewhat. For strong airlines outside of the 'click,' they need to look at their options.

Quoting enilria (Reply 15):
Given that you cannot cooperate with other alliances without leaving SkyTeam it would imply that SU wishes to be independent and straddle them all.

How positively ME3....

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
User avatar
IrishAyes
Posts: 2403
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:04 pm

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:46 pm

I think what people are overlooking here is that Aeroflot may have realized, after some self-evaluation of the value-add from SkyTeam, is that it may not even really need to belong to a global alliance as part of its broader strategy working with other airlines. Hence, the mentioning of an "a-la Aer Lingus" style approach.

I think that the alliance that is eventually going to really win in the long-run is OneWorld. Not only is their base growing, but its looser-style of operating provides greater flexibility in a time when network airlines need it the most. It's possible for an airline like Qantas to save itself by partnering with Emirates, while also staying in OneWorld, and nobody really balks. Try that within Star Alliance, and you're given the boot.

SkyTeam, IMO, has the most obfuscating structure above all, in terms of its participating carriers, the relationships among them (read: Delta and Korean) and its overall long-term strategic vision.
 
delimit
Posts: 786
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:08 pm

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:56 pm

I expect the opposite. As each of the US carriers get there respective houses in order they will make similar moves. I expect the same from BA. Delta is just further along in the process as it started it first.
 
TYCOON
Posts: 477
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:20 pm

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:56 pm

Honestly, I don't understand the whole point people are making about only within alliances. You can still be a member of an alliance but have strong commercial ties with Airlines of other alliances. Qantas is not the first (nor last) airline to develop codeshare/cooperation outside of the alliances...
If I just look at AF, they have a strong codeshare and cooperation (reciprocal FF miles and awards) with JAL, with COPA and with Malaysian, not to mention a number of other independent Airlines.
And AF is certainly not the only one developing relationships outside of the alliances...
 
SA7700
Posts: 2930
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:38 pm

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:59 pm

Quoting irishayes (Reply 17):
Try that within Star Alliance, and you're given the boot.

Well SA is in Star and they codeshare with both EK and QF. Yet they have not been given the boot. How does one explain that?


Thanks and regards,

SA7700
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
a380787
Posts: 4573
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:38 pm

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:11 pm

Quoting irishayes (Reply 17):
Try that within Star Alliance, and you're given the boot.

Show one example of an airline that actually got booted or publicly threatened to be booted. LH/TK merely discontinuing code-share doesn't count

Both SQ and NZ has been partnering with VA for a while, AirChina has cross-shareholding with CX, SQ code-shares with VX on the US side, SAA code-sharing with QF on their Perth service etc etc etc. NONE got booted.
 
User avatar
airzim
Posts: 1415
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:14 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 9):
US citizens (and many others) need visa for Turkey also if they desire to enter.

While true, this can easily be obtained at the airpot for $20USD. Hardly a major deterrent compared to Chile 'reciprocity tax' on US nationals entering their countries.
 
User avatar
usdcaguy
Posts: 1366
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:41 pm

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:38 am

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 19):
And AF is certainly not the only one developing relationships outside of the alliances.

You've got that right. Just think of DL and G3, AS, VS, VA, etc

Regarding SU, they most certainly have the right to develop relationships with carriers outside the alliance. I must say that their low fares seem incongruent with DL's standard industry pricing. I think the best thing would be for SU to join DL, AF, KL et al in a new Russia-Americas JV with revenue sharing to points in the Western Hemisphere with optimized connectivity to places in Central Asia, particularly the oil-rich towns of Kazakhstan. I think DL is finding that other carriers will compete with better fares and equipment in certain markets and that there is little they can do but cut capacity (like ATL-SVO or ATL-IST service) to drive yield on what they have flying. Absent a JV, I see more shrinkage on DL to come with SU getting an increasingly larger share of the business to/from Russia. It's best for DL/AF/KL that that kind of business stay on SkyTeam, however, or they may risk losing equity in the SkyTeam brand.
 
hohd
Posts: 787
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 1:03 am

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:18 pm

Among the 3 alliances, Skyteam is the weakest and they do not want to make it more irrelevant by losing Aeroflot. They may need to allow Aeroflot to explore marketing arrangements with airlines outside the alliance.
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8336
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:44 pm

Aeroflot said the same thing less than a year ago.

Russian state companies are used to getting things their own way, so long may they huff and puff.

All alliances have difficult partners - Singapore doesn't play in Star for example. Qantas is playing with Emirates...

Same day different alliance it seems.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
TYCOON
Posts: 477
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:20 pm

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:57 pm

Out of curiosity Hohd, what is your definition of "weakest"? Sounds very subjective to me when you consider that Skyteam is
1) the second alliance in terms of passengers flown
2) the second alliance in terms of countries, destinations served
2) the second largest in fleet size
3) the second largest market share (but with the largest market share in the growing Chinese market)
4) second largest airline group in Europe
5) the N°1 and N°2 largest airlines in Asia...
... and it is the only alliance where no carrier has ever gone bankrupt or disappeared à la Mexicana, Varig, Malev....
So, once again, how is it the weakest?
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:33 pm

The alliances all seem to me to be designed to favour the founding carriers. Seems to me that the founding carriers all wanted to protect their TATL cash cows and use their other partners as either feeders or domestic carriers in their respective countries. They didn't really want their alliance partners actually growing.

And now this is all coming to the fore. TK in Star. And SU in SkyTeam.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17678
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:37 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 27):

The alliances all seem to me to be designed to favour the founding carriers. Seems to me that the founding carriers all wanted to protect their TATL cash cows and use their other partners as either feeders or domestic carriers in their respective countries. They didn't really want their alliance partners actually growing.

   That's pretty much it. That combined with the growing sense that these mega alliances are not long for this world mean some difficult choices for founding members. DL-AF/KL can work with SU on their side, or against them as a strong competitor; LH can work with TK, or as it has chosen, against it. Personally I'd think it'd be better to have SU/TK on your side as a powerful tool against the ME3 for example, but I think egos and not reason are driving a lot of decisions at this point.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:55 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 28):
I think egos and not reason are driving a lot of decisions at this point.

I don't think it's ego insomuch as it is a lack of strategic vision. Airlines like LH and AF-KL seem to think they can keep out the competition through legislative barriers. How successful they will remain in the long run remains to be seen. Their lack of vision is driving them to downgrade their alliance relationships with the growing recent entrants while attempting to take on the ME3 with legislative hurdles. I'd bet on TK and SU and the like growing over LH/AC/UA and AF-KL/DL maintaining their market share.

[Edited 2013-12-03 07:58:03]
 
avek00
Posts: 3222
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:12 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 28):
That combined with the growing sense that these mega alliances are not long for this world mean some difficult choices for founding members.

What growing sense are you referring to? Not the airliners.net echo chamber, I hope. Global alliances are evolving, and that's to be expected given the shifts in commercial aviation from the late 1990s/early 2000s. But they aren't going away, not by any means. For all the hoopla about airlines making the business decisions their leadership teams are tasked by law and by business imperative to make, there's no race for the alliance world exits by major global carriers.

It must also be remembered that, beyond the marketing and frequent-flyer stuff on the front end, the global alliances are major drivers in reforming industry business practices and technologies to make them more efficient and less costly, possessing the resources to develop and implement initiatives that would be impractical for most non-Top 20 airlines, acting alone, to undertake.
Live life to the fullest.
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6989
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:40 pm

Quoting skiaplg (Reply 10):
Aeromexico I believe work with Virgin America as well

Alaska. AM also codeshares and has reciprocal mileage benefits with CM and LA, and that has not caused issues with AF, KL or DL.
Upcoming flights:
May: AM MEX-CUN 73H (Y), AM CUN-MEX 73W (Y).
August: KL MEX-AMS 74M (J), KQ AMS-NBO 788 (J).
 
User avatar
IrishAyes
Posts: 2403
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:04 pm

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:51 pm

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 20):
Well SA is in Star and they codeshare with both EK and QF. Yet they have not been given the boot. How does one explain that?
Quoting a380787 (Reply 21):
Show one example of an airline that actually got booted or publicly threatened to be booted. LH/TK merely discontinuing code-share doesn't count

Both SQ and NZ has been partnering with VA for a while, AirChina has cross-shareholding with CX, SQ code-shares with VX on the US side, SAA code-sharing with QF on their Perth service etc etc etc. NONE got booted.

These relationships are MUCH more superficial than the EK-QF tie-up. There is a far greater niche focus from those examples than QF abandoning BKK, HKG and SIN as its stoppover points on the Kangaroo route and partnering with one of the world's most formidable carriers over DXB and creating the Falcon route, flying basically all-A380 services from Australia to Dubai (with the exception of BNE) and doubling weekly seat capacity two-fold within a one-year period.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17678
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:44 pm

Quoting avek00 (Reply 30):
Global alliances are evolving, and that's to be expected given the shifts in commercial aviation from the late 1990s/early 2000s. But they aren't going away, not by any means

They may not be going away but there's a clear trend toward strategic JVs and ownership stakes regardless of the global alliance membership. Saying that they are "evolving" is a nice way of saying that the carriers causing the most disruption have no need/interest for the global alliances; they just pick--sometimes buy--the partners they want, rather than the whole gamut. Even DL, founding member of Skyteam, has acted far more in its own interest than some group Skyteam interest lately, and I think that is going to be the predominant model for the future until cross border mergers are allowed.

Quoting avek00 (Reply 30):
the global alliances are major drivers in reforming industry business practices and technologies to make them more efficient and less costly,

I think you're giving them a little too much credit, plus the industry best practices and technology are converging much faster now just out of sheer competition. But at the end of the day, does a carrier like TK need Star? Doubtful. Or SU and Skyteam? This isn't your father's SU.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
incitatus
Posts: 3312
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:06 pm

This is partially due to Aeroflot's (and Russian overall) overblown sense of importance. Aeroflot today is about the size of the Chilean arm of LAN. The wide-body fleets are about the same size and the A320 family of Aeroflot is marginally bigger. Alliance rules will favor the larger members, no doubt.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2355
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:08 pm

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 26):
and it is the only alliance where no carrier has ever gone bankrupt or disappeared

DL went bankrupt & NWA disappeared, both while in ST.
"Ya Can't Win, Rocky! There's no Oxygen on Mars!"
"Yeah? That means there's no Oxygen for him Neither..."
 
SA7700
Posts: 2930
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:38 pm

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:20 pm

Quoting irishayes (Reply 32):
These relationships are MUCH more superficial than the EK-QF tie-up.

The fact of the matter is that they do exist, "superficial" or not. You unequivocally stated:

Quoting irishayes (Reply 17):
Try that within Star Alliance, and you're given the boot.

Thanks and regards,

SA7700
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
LJ
Posts: 4879
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:04 pm

One wonders if SU is really displeased why they increased SVO-AMS to 3 daily as of June 2014 (6 daily if you count the KL flights).
 
TYCOON
Posts: 477
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:20 pm

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:27 pm

DarkSnowyNight, let's say bankruptcy in the sense liquidation, winding up... that is what I was refering to by the examples provided by Varig, Mexicana and Malev. Northwest merged into DL... DL's bankruptcy was not a liquidation...
 
SR4ever
Posts: 388
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:19 pm

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:23 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 15):
Given that you cannot cooperate with other alliances without leaving SkyTeam

What about cooperations betwen ST members and independent airlines? E.g. LG cooperating with AF and AZ.

LG-SU could nicely cooperate, too  
Quoting skiaplg (Reply 10):
I doubt Aeroflot would work well in Star as the report linked above showed Germany being their largest European market,

LH+SU would certainly create a distinctively dominant position on Germany+Switzerland+Austria+Belgium Russia markets. Competition Authorities would most probably require substantial commitments and compensations before clearing the deal.

Quoting irishayes (Reply 17):
it may not even really need to belong to a global alliance as part of its broader strategy working with other airlines. Hence, the mentioning of an "a-la Aer Lingus" style approach.

Or an Etihad-style approach, with various investments in some other airlines, regardless of their respective alliances...

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 33):
But at the end of the day, does a carrier like TK need Star? Doubtful. Or SU and Skyteam?

TK will fewer need LH-LX-OS-SN and LO in Western Europe, while SK and TP may retain more value. This notwithstanding, TK will always need other partners in North America and the Far East.

By the way, any fresh news of the would-be hub which TK was eyeing in CPH for Transatlantic flights?

If SU embarks ino the same kind of strategy as TK, it will also have a much lower need for partners such as AF, KL AZ and CZ, but it will still need other partners outside Europe.
 
jumpjets
Posts: 1435
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:17 pm

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:43 am

Quoting LJ (Reply 37):
One wonders if SU is really displeased why they increased SVO-AMS to 3 daily as of June 2014

Maybe customer demand? I am sure that is still the prime driver for service enhancements rather than Alliance relationships.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8861
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:06 am

Euro legacies still think that air traffic is based on them, when a fast majority of travellers can and do reach their destination without everlanding in Europe.

I would hope we see one of the big NA carriers join force with SU and EK to form an co-operation free of the arrogant Euro legacies.Imagine EK, SU, UA and QA with Easy doing feeding in Europe.
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:22 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 41):
Euro legacies still think that air traffic is based on them,

It's not that they think air traffic is based on them. It's that they are fighting hard to change the evolution of air traffic away from them. On the lower end, they've got LCCs nipping at their heels in the domestic (pan-Europe really) markets. On the other end, they've got the likes of the ME3 stealing a good chunk of the growth in Asia bound traffic from their home markets or even their extended markets (North America).
 
User avatar
IrishAyes
Posts: 2403
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:04 pm

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:25 pm

Quoting incitatus (Reply 34):
This is partially due to Aeroflot's (and Russian overall) overblown sense of importance. Aeroflot today is about the size of the Chilean arm of LAN. The wide-body fleets are about the same size and the A320 family of Aeroflot is marginally bigger. Alliance rules will favor the larger members, no doubt.

That's actually untrue. On a total seats basis, based on weekly system traffic, Aeroflot ranks #29 on the list of global airlines. It falls just behind Alaska and is one spot ahead of Korean Air.

Ironically, both AS and KE also have relevance here in terms of how SkyTeam treats them. One is prized (AS) and the other is basically not given the time of day (KE). What is the key driver behind this? Oh, yeah. It's Delta and how Delta relates to these two players. Funny stuff, isn't it?

That actually means it has less to do with who the bigger players are, and more so to do with who the "important" players are in the eyes of the guys running the show (AF-KL and DL).

If it were truly about the "larger members," as you claim, then AZ (who ranks at 46) would not be included in the JV with AF-KL, per your own logical reasoning.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 39):
Or an Etihad-style approach, with various investments in some other airlines, regardless of their respective alliances...

They could emulate it to some degree, but it will never be as full-blown as Etihad's radial alliances network. EY has been on this path since day one, and is barely a decade old, whereas SU is very large, very legacy, and very old-school. It can, however, adapt and do well, and if it can do so without ST, then I give them my fullest support.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 39):
By the way, any fresh news of the would-be hub which TK was eyeing in CPH for Transatlantic flights?

Huh!? This is news to me.....since when does TK see value in creating a TATL out of CPH?! That seems like a pretty brainless idea to me.
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6989
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:01 am

Quoting irishayes (Reply 43):
Ironically, both AS and KE also have relevance here in terms of how SkyTeam treats them. One is prized (AS) and the other is basically not given the time of day (KE). What is the key driver behind this? Oh, yeah. It's Delta and how Delta relates to these two players. Funny stuff, isn't it?

Very good point and comparison IrishAyes, althought we must acknowledge that lately DL would appear to be trying to squeeze AS.

Quoting irishayes (Reply 43):
since when does TK see value in creating a TATL out of CPH?! That seems like a pretty brainless idea to me.

Lunatic idea.
Upcoming flights:
May: AM MEX-CUN 73H (Y), AM CUN-MEX 73W (Y).
August: KL MEX-AMS 74M (J), KQ AMS-NBO 788 (J).
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8861
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:32 am

Quoting YTZ (Reply 42):
It's not that they think air traffic is based on them. It's that they are fighting hard to change the evolution of air traffic away from them. On the lower end, they've got LCCs nipping at their heels in the domestic (pan-Europe really) markets. On the other end, they've got the likes of the ME3 stealing a good chunk of the growth in Asia bound traffic from their home markets or even their extended markets (North America).

Dinosaurs of the sky. Unable to adapt those big Euro carriers will fall.
 
SR4ever
Posts: 388
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:19 pm

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:39 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 44):
Quoting irishayes (Reply 43):
Quoting SR4ever (Reply 39):
By the way, any fresh news of the would-be hub which TK was eyeing in CPH for Transatlantic flights?

Huh!? This is news to me.....since when does TK see value in creating a TATL out of CPH?! That seems like a pretty brainless idea to me.

I read it in one of the Turkish Aviation (monthly) Threads of 2012...
 
ordbosewr
Posts: 542
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:30 pm

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:01 pm

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 26):
Out of curiosity Hohd, what is your definition of "weakest"? Sounds very subjective to me when you consider that Skyteam is
1) the second alliance in terms of passengers flown
2) the second alliance in terms of countries, destinations served
2) the second largest in fleet size
3) the second largest market share (but with the largest market share in the growing Chinese market)
4) second largest airline group in Europe
5) the N°1 and N°2 largest airlines in Asia...
... and it is the only alliance where no carrier has ever gone bankrupt or disappeared à la Mexicana, Varig, Malev....
So, once again, how is it the weakest?

Sorry, but you had me until your last point... both, Delta and Northwest went through bankruptcies while in Skyteam!

Mexicana was not in any alliance when it went under, it left *A before that happened.

Airlines go bankrupt all the time. Now to your point about liquidation, yes it may be the only alliance spared from that, but it will happen.

I personally would not judge the alliance on the success or failure of any one airline within the alliance. I think the strength or weakness of the alliance is the sum of the parts.
To me the strongest alliance is one were the passenger gets the best experience from all of the brands. I don't care if they like (DL-AF) or dislike each other (example UA-SQ).
The point of the alliance should be to drive me (the customer) to fly more within the alliance. Since I am a american and travel overseas sometimes, the goal of the alliance should be ensure that I favor the alliance partners when I make those decisions, that will drive more revenue.
unfortunately the mergers amongst the US carriers have tilted the power. Since we will now have the 3 largest airlines in the world they feel (all of them) that they can promote flying on their metal over all others (they do this through the frequent flier awards or lack of them). That is not helpful. Examples include, the recent Delta-Korean spat and on the other end United-Copa essentially being one (really a leftover from the Continental-Copa relationship).
 
TYCOON
Posts: 477
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:20 pm

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:17 pm

Correction ORDBOSEWR, Mexicana was very much in an alliance when it went bankrupt... it left Star Alliance and joined OneWorld... It was a member of OneWorld when the airline went belly up... And the OneWorld website kept the Mexicana logo very much alive some months after its demise even though the airline was very much dead...
 
User avatar
diverdave
Posts: 692
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:00 am

RE: Aeroflot Displeased With Skyteam Relations

Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:29 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
SU also been unable to join the Atlantic JV which recently expanded to include Alitalia.

I can't imagine any Western carrier would be all that eager to have Aeroflot as part of a JV.

David

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos