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ytz
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:47 pm

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 81):
What an ambassador.

Hardly. I care about what's literally good for my behind as a passenger. And that's why I hope AC buys CSeries birds. Ditto for 320NEOs.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:42 am

Quoting opethfan (Reply 79):
A gap of 30 is the difference between a CSeries subfleet and an all-A320 fleet.
Quoting drgmobile (Reply 97):
One should never look at an aircraft order as a product-for-product exercise in "replacement." It doesn't work that way. The A321s are the newest of the Airbus narrowbodies. Just because AC may order some A321s NEOs doesn't mean that the current ones are slated for replacement any time soon. It may just be a shift upward in capacity over A320s for higher density routes

  

I wish that would come across in the 'what will replace the 757 threads!' It isn't 1 for 1 replacement. Sometimes one up-gauges to reduce CASM, sometimes a market requires more frequency or it is time to fragment a route (go direct versus 1 stop). Aircraft ordering is modelable, but not for 1 for 1 replacement.

Quoting drgmobile (Reply 97):
A split order with new gen Embraers or C-Series is quite likely. I wouldn't underestimate the political capital that would come from making an important order for that Canadian program that many deem to be troubled. I'm not suggesting AC would buy the plane if it was just plain wrong for its fleet, but that this would nevertheless be a factor to consider.

Concur. I expect AC to buy the C-series unless it just doesn't work in their fleet plans. But how many?   


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drgmobile
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:41 am

Quoting YTZ (Reply 98):
Sure. But you don't think that having tiny cabin bins, narrower aisles (affecting loading/unloading), range limitations, etc. impacts the missions they fly with that fleet and the profits it generates?

In this category of aircraft, marginally. Not enough to dump an existing fleet over without much more important factors involved.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 101):

I wish that would come across in the 'what will replace the 757 threads!' It isn't 1 for 1 replacement. Sometimes one up-gauges to reduce CASM, sometimes a market requires more frequency or it is time to fragment a route (go direct versus 1 stop). Aircraft ordering is modelable, but not for 1 for 1 replacement.

I did raise it in that thread:

"Aircraft manufacturers don't sell aircraft this way. They design planes for the missions airlines want to operate, which change along with evolutions in the industry. If they DID design aircraft like this, we'd never have a 747. We'd be flying around in more aerodynamic, jet-powered, composite filled super DC-3s."
 
lostsound
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:26 pm

Tomorrow is the big day! Hoping the NEO order is a go as originally predicted.
 
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c172akula
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:51 pm

Jon Ostrower reporting that Boeing is in exclusive negotiations with AC for at least 50 737 MAX.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:55 pm

Quoting c172akula (Reply 104):
Jon Ostrower reporting that Boeing is in exclusive negotiations with AC for at least 50 737 MAX.

If this order does go to the MAX (pun), I'm going to be both very surprised and am going to have to assume it relates in at least some way to compensation for the delay in AC's 787 deliveries.

Boeing's Randy Tinseth was also touting how having gone all-Boeing for their widebody fleet, doing the same with their narrowbody fleet would provide benefits to pilot pools, maintenance practices and procedures and training thanks to the common cockpit instrument panel between the MAX and 7777/87. So perhaps that is also tilting the deal in favor of the MAX as it would mean AC would not need to have a separate Airbus and Boeing pilot pool and training systems, which would save costs.

[Edited 2013-12-11 09:59:44]
 
ytz
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:06 pm

I am wondering if the MAX is more sensible simply because the 8MAX is bigger. The 320NEO is probably smallish for AC, with a big gap to the 321NEO. Of course, this is setting aside other considerations (including the current experience and supply chain for the 320). The narrower seats suck for passengers.

Here's to hoping they go CSeries for the E190 and A319 replacements....for the sake of us passengers.
 
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:10 pm

I don't get why they would fly 737s and A319s together. Rouge may be branded differently but they are still using ACs aircraft.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 105):
So perhaps that is also tilting the deal in favor of the MAX as it would mean AC would not need to have a separate Airbus and Boeing pilot pool and training systems, which would save costs.

AC would still be operating A319s for Rouge which means they still need a separate Airbus and Boeing pilot pool and training systems.

[Edited 2013-12-11 10:13:53]

[Edited 2013-12-11 10:14:58]
 
sixtyseven
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:15 pm

I'm sticking to my guns. As per a discussion with a member of senior executive management who said AC is working towards an all a Boeing narrow body fleet. Who also said the C-Series was not a fit. This occurred last month.

Time will tell. I imagine it will be the announced early tomorrow morning as the board meets today and would put it out for press release in the AM.

Once again I wouldn't be surprised at anything. I wonder what the line is in Vegas???
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Stitch
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:18 pm

Quoting lostsound (Reply 107):
AC would still be operating A319s for Rouge which means they still need a separate Airbus and Boeing pilot pool and training systems.

Maybe long-term there are plans to spin Rouge off into a separate company?

Or that Rouge will eventually also operate the MAX when it comes time to retire the Airbuses?
 
ytz
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:26 pm

Quoting lostsound (Reply 107):
I don't get why they would fly 737s and A319s together. Rouge may be branded differently but they are still using ACs aircraft.

Only during the transition though. And then AC mainline will be all Boeing (except E190 fleet) by 2019. AC Rouge will be 319 until they switch to whatever replaces that. That's not too challenging a transition.

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 108):
who said AC is working towards an all a Boeing narrow body fleet.

With a rumoured 50 aircraft buy that would not seem probable. They've got 86 Airbus narrowbodies to replace. What would replace the other 36?

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 108):
Who also said the C-Series was not a fit.

Sad if true. It would probably mean the E2 line then. Maybe AC goes for the E195-E2 as the AC Rouge 319 and the E190-E2 to replace the E190s. Kinda sucks for us passengers.
 
lostsound
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:31 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 110):
With a rumoured 50 aircraft buy that would not seem probable. They've got 86 Airbus narrowbodies to replace. What would replace the other 36?

I strongly believe Air Canada will purchasing the C-Series for the rest of the fleet. It seems Bombardier is putting all their resources into this order.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-1...nada-nears-time-for-jet-order.html

[Edited 2013-12-11 10:33:25]
 
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Stitch
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:34 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 110):
With a rumoured 50 aircraft buy that would not seem probable. They've got 86 Airbus narrowbodies to replace. What would replace the other 36?

A follow-on MAX order?

Does the entire Airbus fleet at AC need to be replaced within the same general timeframe, or can AC stage said replacements into two or more tranches?
 
ytz
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:36 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 112):

A follow-on MAX order?

Does the entire Airbus fleet at AC need to be replaced within the same general timeframe, or can AC stage said replacements into two or more tranches?

I've thought about this and it seems to me that the tranches would be close enough that it would make more sense as a single order.
 
phxa340
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:36 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 88):

Historically you are correct that rumors turn out true 99% of the time. However recently I have seen an increase in the amount of airlines that negotiate through the press.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:39 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 113):
I've thought about this and it seems to me that the tranches would be close enough that it would make more sense as a single order.

How does Rouge fit in?

Could AC move some routes (and Airbus equipment) to Rouge, resulting in the need for only 50 737 MAX to serve the remaining AC mainline routes?
 
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N328KF
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:47 pm

Reuters is reporting that the deal may be for 100+ including options. Preliminary, no link yet.
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
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mptpa
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:54 pm

WSJ reports that AC is in exclusive talks with Boeing for 50 B737MAX ($5.2B before discount). Exclusive does not mean a win for Boeing.... but interesting development nonetheless.

Top
 
lostsound
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:06 pm

Quoting mptpa (Reply 117):
Reply 117, posted s_lt(1386788099, 'l F j Y H:i:s');Wed Dec 11 2013 15:24:59 your local timeWed Dec 11 2013 10:54:59 UTC (10 minutes 36 secs ago) and read 167 times:

WSJ reports that AC is in exclusive talks with Boeing for 50 B737MAX ($5.2B before discount). Exclusive does not mean a win for Boeing.... but interesting development nonetheless.

Correct.
Considering Airbus doesn't do exclusive talks, we can't be certain where AC is with them.
 
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:18 pm

What is the definition of 'exclusive talks'?
 
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N328KF
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:23 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 119):
What is the definition of 'exclusive talks'?

As a practical matter, it means they are no longer discussing terms with Airbus, and barring any major hiccup, Air Canada has decided that some mix of Boeing products are the categorical winner. This does not mean that Embraer or the smaller CSeries variants are off of the table, as they are in a different category.

[Edited 2013-12-11 11:51:08]
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
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Stitch
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:36 pm

Quoting lostsound (Reply 118):
Considering Airbus doesn't do exclusive talks, we can't be certain where AC is with them.

I'm not sure the OEMs are the ones that decide whether or not an airline talks only to them about an order (as even if they feel the airline is not serious about choosing them, they're still going to talk to them).  

As N328KF notes above, it appears that after reviewing the RFPs from Airbus and Boeing, AC has decided they prefer Boeing's and are now negotiating exclusively with them to secure an agreement on ordering the 737 MAX. While such negotiations do not guarantee such an agreement, it does mean Boeing is now the front-runner.

[Edited 2013-12-11 11:37:40]
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:40 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 105):
If this order does go to the MAX (pun), I'm going to be both very surprised and am going to have to assume it relates in at least some way to compensation for the delay in AC's 787 deliveries.

The Flydubai order would also have gone to Airbus, according to some rumors the airline changed its mind after Boeing announced the 737 production rate increase because it opened early delivery slots.

[Edited 2013-12-11 11:46:55]
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Stitch
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:54 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 122):
The Flydubai order would also have gone to Airbus, according to some rumors the airline changed its mind after Boeing announced the 737 production rate increase because it opened early delivery slots.

And Boeing did recently raise the (eventual planned) production rate from 42 to 47 frames per month...

We may be starting to see the answer to your earlier question as to why Boeing is making that jump while Airbus has (as yet) not, astuteman.

  
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:56 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 105):
Boeing's Randy Tinseth was also touting how having gone all-Boeing for their widebody fleet, doing the same with their narrowbody fleet would provide benefits to pilot pools, maintenance practices and procedures and training thanks to the common cockpit instrument panel between the MAX and 7777/87.



A common cockpit is offered by Airbus for over 20 years now and I have a feeling that the previous Randy kept dismissing it as a benefit. And now it's suddenly great when Boeing is offering it. Interesting.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 100):
Hardly. I care about what's literally good for my behind as a passenger. And that's why I hope AC buys CSeries birds. Ditto for 320NEOs.



Well, it looks like AC's managers are reading these boards and listen to our complaints about the new long haul Y product being worse than the short haul. The MAX order will ensure that the Y product will be equally bad wherever you fly.
310, 319, 320, 321, 321N, 332, 333, 343, 345, 346, 732, 735, 73G, 738, 7M8, 744, 752, 753, 762, 763, 77E, 77L, 77W, 788, AT4, AT7, BEH, C402, CR2, CRA, CR9, DH1, DH3, DH4, E45, E70, E75, E90, E95, F28, F50, F100, MD82, Saab 340, YAK40
 
ytz
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:02 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 115):

How does Rouge fit in?

Somebody will correct me if I am wrong but I believe that Rouge is contractually limited to 30 Airbus narrowbodies and 20 767s.

So that would be the entire A319 fleet (excluding 3 Jetz aircraft). And I imagine that is exactly what AC will do. Transfer all 319s to Rouge and use Rouge pretty much exclusively for Sun destinations.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 120):
This does not mean that Embraer or the smaller CSeries variants are off of the table, as they are in a different category.

If the order is 50 firm and 50 options than it could well mean that the smaller airframes are out of contention. I just don't see operating 7Max or 319NEO as all that economical for AC. To me it makes sense to have two narrowbody families in a hi-lo mix that is much more optimized. 738/739MAX or 320/321NEO, along with CS100 or E190-E2 for mainline and CS300 or E195-E2. As long as they cover most of Canada's preferred sun destinations from YYZ in Mexico and the Carribean:

YYZ-MIA/NAS/HAV/SJU/CUN/CZM/MZT&R=1800nm%40yyz&DU=nm&SG=0.78&SU=mach" target="_blank">http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=YYZ-MIA...1800nm%40yyz&DU=nm&SG=0.78&SU=mach

Keeping this in mind:
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/12/31...dians-top-10-destinations-for-2013
 
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:04 pm

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 124):
Well, it looks like AC's managers are reading these boards and listen to our complaints about the new long haul Y product being worse than the short haul. The MAX order will ensure that the Y product will be equally bad wherever you fly.

Agreed. Those narrow Dreamliner seats will transition perfect into the 737s, decreasing comfort all-round onboard AC.
 
ytz
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:08 pm

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 124):
The MAX order will ensure that the Y product will be equally bad wherever you fly.
Quoting lostsound (Reply 126):
Agreed. Those narrow Dreamliner seats will transition perfect into the 737s, decreasing comfort all-round onboard AC.

Will go perfectly with the 31" pitch they'll offer on domestic.

It's going to be a nice contrast to Porter's CS100s if and when Porter's expansion plans come through.
 
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N14AZ
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:17 pm

So time to change the thread title? Can be done easily by adding "not" or "was".

If avalabilty was important Boeing seems to have an advantage.
 
lostsound
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:22 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 127):
Will go perfectly with the 31" pitch they'll offer on domestic.

It's going to be a nice contrast to Porter's CS100s if and when Porter's expansion plans come through.

Only innovation in passenger comfort to look forward to now in Canada it seems. They already offer generous space on their Q400s.
 
sixtyseven
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:24 pm

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 128):
So time to change the thread title? Can be done easily by adding "not" or "was".

Hahahahaha. Thats good.
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
ytz
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:28 pm

Quoting lostsound (Reply 129):
Only innovation in passenger comfort to look forward to now in Canada it seems. They already offer generous space on their Q400s.

Sadly the Porter CS100 layout also means 30-31" pitch. However, at least the other amenities of the CSeries might make up for some of this.
 
lostsound
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:33 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 131):

Sadly the Porter CS100 layout also means 30-31" pitch. However, at least the other amenities of the CSeries might make up for some of this.

The C-Series offers a wider seat then the competition. The middle seat will be wider than the aisle and window seats to increase shoulder and arm space. There's a plus there. The big question is whether or not Porter will introduce some sort of IFE.

Had Air Canada been purchasing A320s, we could have at least guaranteed both adequate seat width and a good IFE. Now it's just the IFE that gives AC a plus.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:44 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 127):

I'm a big guy and I find virtually no difference in the comfort, (or lack of), offered by the 320 or 737. I have no doubt some people do have a preference, but I've also never found a normal, (read that, 'non enthusiast'), passenger able to tell the difference.

I used to regularly fly 6 hour legs on OS 737's, which were more comfortable than many 330/777 flights.

There is a lot more to airline comfort than the width of the seat.

That being said, Boeing would have to offer something very compelling to get AC to switch to the 737...and I don't think their fleet is large enough for a split fleet, (in that passenger range), to make sense.
What the...?
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:48 pm

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 128):
So time to change the thread title? Can be done easily by adding "not" or "was".

Nothing has been confirmed yet. I suggest opening a new thread when AC officially announce the order.
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XT6Wagon
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:50 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 24):
FWIW, I expect WN to upgauge to the -8MAX with their -7 orders.

I'm suprised they ever ordered it. Still I'm sure Boeing can talk them around to the larger aircraft pretty quick with some contracts on keeping parts for the 737-700 fleet at a resonable cost until its time to retire them.
 
ytz
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:50 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 133):
That being said, Boeing would have to offer something very compelling to get AC to switch to the 737

I think the normal discount would suffice. AC would save on commonality with the 787 fleet. I think that would be the sales pitch.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 133):
I don't think their fleet is large enough for a split fleet, (in that passenger range), to make sense.

Yet, we have a split fleet now with the Jungle Jets.

I think a split fleet makes perfect sense. The Boeing and Airbus narrowbodies are sub-optimal at the less than 150 seat range. And they don't offer anything to replace the E190s.

So it would seem (to me anyway), that it would be quite sensible to leave the Boeing and Airbus narrowbodies to fulfill the greater than 150 seat mission and to use CS100/190E2 to replace the E190s and CS300/195E2 to replace the mainline, Rouge and Jetz 319 fleets. That would be a far more optimized fleet.

[Edited 2013-12-11 12:53:43]
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:52 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 136):
I think the normal discount would suffice. AC would save on commonality with the 787 fleet. I think that would be the sales pitch.

I believe early availability is even more important.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:15 pm

“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
-Donny Miller
 
ytz
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:22 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 138):
Now it's "over 100."

There goes Bombardier and Embraer's chances.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:24 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 139):
There goes Bombardier and Embraer's chances.

Not yet, the 100 figure is with options included.
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ytz
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:24 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 140):
Not yet, the 100 figure is with options included.

Would they take that many options if they didn't intend to exercise most of them?

Kinda makes me sad as a passenger. And I'm praying that Porter actually succeeds on its expansion plans, to give me an alternative.

[Edited 2013-12-11 13:25:41]
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:27 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 141):
Would they take that many options if they didn't intend to exercise them?

The initial order could be for replacements while the options could be used for growth in the future. This would still leave some room for a Bombardier or Embraer order.
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:28 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 139):
There goes Bombardier and Embraer's chances.

Across the 3 fleets, if they are replacing all NBs (320 family and EJets), they need about 135 aircraft. If they are looking at 100 from Boeing, leaves about 30 which could be the touted CSeries order number.
CSeries forever. Bring back the old site.
 
ytz
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:34 pm

Quoting golfradio (Reply 143):
If they are looking at 100 from Boeing, leaves about 30 which could be the touted CSeries order number.

Aren't we saying over 100?

As much as I hold hope. I could easily see AC deciding that the market is there to support upgauge from E190 to MAX7/319NEO and going MAX7 or 319NEO across the entire mainline low end, Rouge and Jetz. It all depends to how much Boeing/Airbus discounts and commonality are worth other fuel savings from Bombardier or Embraer's offerings.
 
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:36 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 123):
We may be starting to see the answer to your earlier question as to why Boeing is making that jump while Airbus has (as yet) not, astuteman.

Indeed.

We will have to wait for the official announcement but if AC takes first delivery in 2017, the production rate increase might have favored the B737. Availability is often an important decision factor. The A320neo is sold out until 2020 while Boeing can offer 60 more delivery slots per year, starting from 2017.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
Whiteguy
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:37 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 144):
As much as I hold hope. I could easily see AC deciding that the market is there to support upgauge from E190 to MAX7/319NEO and going MAX7 or 319NEO across the entire mainline low end, Rouge and Jetz. It all depends to how much Boeing/Airbus discounts and commonality are worth other fuel savings from Bombardier or Embraer's offerings.

Don't count on Jetz being around much longer after this season.
 
ytz
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:44 pm

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 146):
Don't count on Jetz being around much longer after this season.

Why? Do they not get enough business?
 
sixtyseven
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:54 pm

Jetz aircraft need to be re-tasked to mainline flying as 319s move to Rouge. Jetz will be wound down after this year is the word in the office.

[Edited 2013-12-11 13:55:47]
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ytz
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RE: Air Canada Close To A320neo Order

Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:00 pm

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 148):
Jetz aircraft need to be re-tasked to mainline flying as 319s move to Rouge. Jetz will be wound down after this year is the word in the office.

Interesting. But if new planes are in the works, would that not imply that they may well get enough aircraft to grow to either keep or restart Jetz (assuming Jetz is profitable for them)?

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