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PEK777
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RE: DL Cancels Flight To Accommodate Basketball Charter

Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:35 am

So, a doctor may not have made it back to perform a surgery. A son could not be at his mother's funeral. But priority is given to a group, who outside of the coaches, probably lacks the ability to read the conditions printed on the ticket. Makes a whole lot of sense to me.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: DL Cancels Flight To Accommodate Basketball Charter

Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:40 am

Quoting PROSA (Reply 49):
It's just a game. Entertainment. Nothing more.

Sure it was just entertainment, so? Don't you think a stadium full of people would have said "oh well, it's just a game?" DL would have had horrible press and lost a lot of business, or at least that's how they viewed it. Charters are a step up from regular flights. I'm sure DL would have given a guy his own private plane and cancelled all those passengers if he paid enough. From a business standpoint, it's an obvious choice.

And although I couldn't care less about the game, what's to say the thousands of fan's 'entertainment' is less valuable than inconveniencing a plane full of passengers? I know I'm jumping to an extreme hypothetical, but what if they delayed the Super Bowl due to similar circumstances? The Super Bowl is "just a game" too. Same concept
 
brilondon
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RE: DL Cancels Flight To Accommodate Basketball Charter

Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:36 am

Quoting SANFan (Reply 13):
Why not? I think they deserve it.

Why, did they so something to you? Those people who were on the canceled flight now have to allow for longer transit times and being on a flight that is canceled is not picnic.

Quoting richardw (Reply 6):

Hallelujah! for EU regulation EC261/2004 which would mean a cash payment of compensation if this happened in the EU.

Good luck actually collecting on that and you still have to find your way home. The airline is not obligated to accommodate you after they pay you off. Read the fine print.
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
packcheer
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RE: DL Cancels Flight To Accommodate Basketball Charter

Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:48 am

Howdy guys,

We all need to remember this is more about contracts and agreements than how any person or group may feel about the situation.

Once upon a time..... I was on a DL charter, and our aircraft had some sort of issue that prevented us from using that aircraft for our short charter flight (RDU-BOS). So on a Friday afternoon, when I'm sure DL had many full flights trying to leave RDU, our 757 for the charter wasn't useable. DL pulled a 757 off of a gate at RDU, and brought it over for our flight. I'm sure the end result was a cancelled flight, or at least a good number of disgruntled passengers.

While almost every agrees that for those passengers who were bumped/rescheduled it wasn't their best day, think about it from the Delta side of things.

If they have to reschdule 180 passengers (Generously full 757), and they were feeling super generous and gave each and every passenger a $500 voucher.

180 passengers x $500 each = $90,000 is cash, plus the lost trust, disgruntled passengers.

Lets say they keep the plane on the gate and bump the charter. That 757 for the hour and a half flight will not only lose the revenue from that charter, plus they risk losing the charter contract for that school.
The charter contract for the schools I have been at often included:
6 away football trips, a handful of other sports away trips (smaller aircraft, but more trips), bowl game, fan charters for said bowl game, plus renewing the contract for future years.


That one lost charter trip could have millions of dollars of ramifications for the airline. It would be a wise business decision, even in the face of bad publicity to let the charter suffer.
Things that fly, Girls and Planes...
 
prebennorholm
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RE: DL Cancels Flight To Accommodate Basketball Charter

Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:00 am

This thread very predictably developed into a fight among defenders and offenders of DL.

In fact it was only an article by Gainsville Sun reporting an incident.

It is relevant information for Joe Business Traveller (and others) to know that when s*** hits the fan, then DL and/or its subcontractors automatically puts Joe B T at the end of the queue. And they likely have no fairly timely backup for a planeload of stranded passengers.

That information is, along with ordinary regularity statistics, relevant information when Joe B T is making his travel arrangements, which airline to use, or whether he should go by car, hire a business taxi jet, or whatever.

If I had been really interested in this incident, then I would have asked why they didn't send a spare plane to Gainsville as soon as possible. They knew how many connections in ATL to China, Australia etc. were missed.

There are also among airlines and airline employees two different ways to look at things. Some who take an extra step to fulfil their part of the contract the best way possible. And some who immediately "take advantage" of the small print when things happen, as if they fly the planes for fun while the passengers are just an annoyance which unfortunately has to be tolerated.

For instance I will never be stranded by Ryanair, because I never fly with them, because in my mind they are positioned all way at the bottom of my list of preferred airlines. It is this sort of information, as delivered by Gainsvillle Sun, which is used to sequence the list of preferred airlines in our mind.

I remember some 3-4 years ago I was waiting at a gate for a pretty short regional jump out of CPH. Two gate agents arrived, and they made the following conversation:
- How bad is it tonight?
- I have heard there are only 13 passengers.
- That sounds good, we can handle that.

I'm not in the airline business. But in another service business, where similar words could have been voiced. But only once, and then the agents would be facing unemployment. But then my company celebrated its 100th anniversary some time ago, without any Chapter 11 or such on its history.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
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barney captain
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RE: DL Cancels Flight To Accommodate Basketball Charter

Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:11 am

Quoting PROSA (Reply 49):
It's just a game. Entertainment. Nothing more.

Wrong. It was a charter.

This didn't happen because it was a sports team - it happened because it was a charter.

I've seen the same thing happen at my airline to accommodate charters as well - military, sports or any other kind. Charters will almost always take priority.

I can't believe this is even making the news....
Southeast Of Disorder
 
skywaymanaz
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RE: DL Cancels Flight To Accommodate Basketball Charter

Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:13 am

There was a sports charter out of DFW about 20 years ago the plane went tech for. Ops solution was to recall a DFW-PHX flight that had already taken off, deplane everyone and use that plane for the charter. Now that I would say crossed the line. That was completely unacceptable to call back a plane that was already in the air. What happened in Florida though they'd have gotten bad press either way. The charter took priority in assigning the aircraft there on the ground period. I wouldn't be happy if I was a passenger that got bumped for that but I'd understand why it was done and I would be reaccommodated. I've had to miss work before due to flight delays and being bumped, it happens. A team missing a game would be pretty inexcusable but it is getting more press than it should because it was one more monkey wrench in the holiday weekend. If this was the worst thing that happened over the holiday weekend I'll take it.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: DL Cancels Flight To Accommodate Basketball Charter

Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:17 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 54):
That information is, along with ordinary regularity statistics, relevant information when Joe B T is making his travel arrangements, which airline to use, or whether he should go by car, hire a business taxi jet, or whatever.

What airline wouldn't do this? A high profile charter over a normal flight?

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 54):
There are also among airlines and airline employees two different ways to look at things. Some who take an extra step to fulfil their part of the contract the best way possible. And some who immediately "take advantage" of the small print when things happen, as if they fly the planes for fun while the passengers are just an annoyance which unfortunately has to be tolerated.

How did they take advantage of anything? They had 2 flights and 1 plane. Again, no passengers own a plane so to speak, airlines (all of them) sub out planes and selectively cancel flights all the time. I've seen flights cancelled because it had less passengers on them even though their plane was good and that plane went to another flight. How would Delta "take an extra step to fulfill their part of the contract?" There was one of two outcomes, one group of people was gonna lose out, just because a plane was originally intended to carry people doesn't mean those people are entitled to that plane

And this is just from a business perspective, it could be my least favorite airline doing this and I'd defend them, I've blasted DL in the past so it's not just bias (at least I try my best)
 
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barney captain
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RE: DL Cancels Flight To Accommodate Basketball Charter

Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:20 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 54):
It is relevant information for Joe Business Traveller (and others) to know that when s*** hits the fan, then DL and/or its subcontractors automatically puts Joe B T at the end of the queue.


Every airline I know of would have made the exact same decision. And justifiably so.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
opethfan
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RE: DL Cancels Flight To Accommodate Basketball Charter

Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:28 am

Legalities and fine print aside, I consider the issue not to be a cancelled flight so that it can be used as a charter, but that it was visible to passengers, and that they were lied to.

If the 'regular' pax went to check in, were told "sorry, there's a scheduling issue due to a delayed maintenance, we're gonna get you on the next flight." then it wouldn't be too bad. But from the wording of the article, people had already dropped bags and were airside, and that quite frankly sends a message of "screw you, you don't matter to us"

Sure, Delta can get away with it and sure it's well within the contract, but that doesn't mean it's ethical or that they should be absolved of what is, essentially, a very visible spit in the face of their standard passenger clientele.
 
Maverick623
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RE: DL Cancels Flight To Accommodate Basketball Charter

Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:29 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 54):

It is relevant information for Joe Business Traveller (and others) to know that when s*** hits the fan, then DL and/or its subcontractors automatically puts Joe B T at the end of the queue.

As it should be. Even Joe Super-Rich Business Traveller doesn't put nearly the revenue into an airline as charters do.

If a business man can't understand that the higher-paying customer gets priority, he doesn't belong in business.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
COSPN
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RE: DL Cancels Flight To Accommodate Basketball Charter

Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:48 am

DO it but not at a public gate  
 
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EK413
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RE: DL Cancels Flight To Accommodate Basketball Charter

Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:00 am

Quoting tlecam (Thread starter):
I've read elsewhere on a.net that airlines do cancel commercial flights from time to time to accomodate charters, and this would be an example of that practice, if true.

This is common practice for an airline to cancel the scheduled service & operate a charter service. However usually is planned with ample time & not day of departure.

I'm guessing DL booked the disrupted passengers onto other flights / carriers???

EK8413
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
cf6ppe
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RE: DL Cancels Flight To Accommodate Basketball Charter

Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:49 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 62):
I'm guessing DL booked the disrupted passengers onto other flights / carriers???

How were the bumped/disrupted passengers accommodated is a question that I have wondered about..??

Did they get out later the same day..??
Did they got out the next day..??
Did some drive to the ATL (it is ~330 miles, ~5-6 hours)..??
Did some abandon their trip..??

Can anyone expand on above..??
 
CWAFlyer
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RE: DL Cancels Flight To Accommodate Basketball Charter

Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:25 pm

Quoting EK413 (Reply 62):
This is common practice for an airline to cancel the scheduled service & operate a charter service. However usually is planned with ample time & not day of departure.

Not unless they have some magically way to predict the plane breaking more than a few days ahead of time.
 
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enilria
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RE: DL Cancels Flight To Accommodate Basketball Charter

Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:34 pm

Quoting CWAFlyer (Reply 43):
Quoting enilria (Reply 7):
Most of the time the passenger flight is cancelled 40+ days in advance, but in these cases a team playing a game is given priority over the commoners on a regular flight.

False. They don't know 40 days ahead of time that a plane is going to be broken or otherwise unavailable and a cancel will need to be done to run the charter.

TRUE. You don't understand charter scheduling. In cases where the charter is to a served airport on one end (which is most of the time), it is common to "cancel into" the schedule to create the charter. If, for example, the normal A/C line is SEA-DEN-MCI-DEN-SEA and they get a charter from DEN to EUG, they would typically fly SEA-DEN-MCI-DEN-EUG-SEA to create the aircraft time. The DEN-EUG would be the live charter and the EUG-SEA would be a paid ferry to reposition the aircraft back into the schedule. These types of cancels (which are how most charters are done) happen 40 days in advance. Airlines typically do not use their spares for running charters since that reduces reliability of the schedule. There are some carriers that have dedicated lines for charters, but it is much more price competitive to "cancel into" the schedule as it reduces the number of ferry flights tremendously and those really inflate the cost.

You are talking about irregular ops. I said nothing about irregular ops in the quote you plucked. Please read more carefully before tossing our a comment like that.
 
CWAFlyer
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RE: DL Cancels Flight To Accommodate Basketball Charter

Wed Dec 04, 2013 8:19 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 65):
TRUE. You don't understand charter scheduling. In cases where the charter is to a served airport on one end (which is most of the time), it is common to "cancel into" the schedule to create the charter. If, for example, the normal A/C line is SEA-DEN-MCI-DEN-SEA and they get a charter from DEN to EUG, they would typically fly SEA-DEN-MCI-DEN-EUG-SEA to create the aircraft time. The DEN-EUG would be the live charter and the EUG-SEA would be a paid ferry to reposition the aircraft back into the schedule. These types of cancels (which are how most charters are done) happen 40 days in advance. Airlines typically do not use their spares for running charters since that reduces reliability of the schedule. There are some carriers that have dedicated lines for charters, but it is much more price competitive to "cancel into" the schedule as it reduces the number of ferry flights tremendously and those really inflate the cost.

You are talking about irregular ops. I said nothing about irregular ops in the quote you plucked. Please read more carefully before tossing our a comment like that.

I understand charter scheduling just fine. The person you replied to asked if this was common practice to cancel regular flights to accomodate charters. Since this was a day-of IROP decsion to cancel and use one of the two airplanes that had gone on mechanical, it had nothing to do with 40-day cancel into schedules or dedicated lines for charters.

Charters such as this one that US Regionals fly on their own behalf or get assigned by the majors are typically flown with spares because they are too infrequent to dedicate airplanes to.
 
nkops
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RE: DL Cancels Flight To Accommodate Basketball Charter

Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:17 pm

I see alot of DL bashing in this thread... would this have been strictly ExpressJet's decision or a joint decision with DL?
Turn left heading 080 contact departure
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: DL Cancels Flight To Accommodate Basketball Charter

Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:35 pm

I can totally see how this went down... (given the way the regionals tend to work):

RJ breaks down, ExpressJet maintenance control gives unrealistically optimistic fix time for the plane.

Operational RJ shifted by expressjet dispatch to higher priority charter to protect the on time.

Reality sets in and broken RJ really broken. ExpressJet does what they do best and delay turns into cancellation.


I love outsourcing!

[Edited 2013-12-04 14:37:56]
Chicks dig winglets.
 
wjcandee
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RE: DL Cancels Flight To Accommodate Basketball Charter

Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:50 pm

Quoting CWAFlyer (Reply 66):
Since this was a day-of IROP decsion to cancel and use one of the two airplanes that had gone on mechanical

Interesting, but I do want to make a correction based on inaccuracies in the original story.

DL didn't CANCEL the scheduled flight to accomodate the charter. They used the aircraft that would have flown the scheduled flight to fly the charter, anticipating that the tech aircraft would be repaired to fly the scheduled flight. Then they discovered that it would take long enough to do the repair that the sked flight should be cxld. So it's really not "cancelling one in favor of the other" in the first place. But if it was, as all have said, they did the right thing.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: DL Cancels Flight To Accommodate Basketball Charter

Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:29 am

Quoting cf6ppe (Reply 63):
How were the bumped/disrupted passengers accommodated is a question that I have wondered about..??

Did they get out later the same day..??
Did they got out the next day..??
Did some drive to the ATL (it is ~330 miles, ~5-6 hours)..??
Did some abandon their trip..??

Can anyone expand on above..??

You pretty much guessed the mix of what was the outcome for the individual pax. Read the article linked by the thread starter, then click on page 2, and you get some details.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
777ord
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RE: DL Cancels Flight To Accommodate Basketball Charter

Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:53 am

Although the word "common" certainly seems like a poor word choice, it is the best word to use.

I know I've been on the operational side to get a charter for the NFL going or face that team from missing Monday Night Football. Could you imagine the damage done if the other team failed to show? Both on a company level, and, on the NFL and teams level?

We took that aircraft and ferried it to said location, ferried another plane and crew in 5 hours later to pick up the difference and arranged priority ATC the whole way to save a few minutes. Sadly that flight had 50 people going to LHR, which we delayed 2 hours (thanks to their 3 hour layover!!) by re booking the pax on the late LHR vs the mid afternoon one. We did NOT cancel, but we did have to compensate some 132 passengers... Cost of national embarrassment and contract cancellations etc... avoided by inconveniencing some 132 people.

Sometimes you just have to let it bleed a little to stop the problem.
 
CWAFlyer
Posts: 536
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RE: DL Cancels Flight To Accommodate Basketball Charter

Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:21 am

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 70):
DL didn't CANCEL the scheduled flight to accomodate the charter. They used the aircraft that would have flown the scheduled flight to fly the charter, anticipating that the tech aircraft would be repaired to fly the scheduled flight. Then they discovered that it would take long enough to do the repair that the sked flight should be cxld. So it's really not "cancelling one in favor of the other" in the first place. But if it was, as all have said, they did the right thing.

Delta didn't cancel anything. ExpressJet did. But the rest of your assessment is correct.

[Edited 2013-12-04 19:22:30]
 
CWAFlyer
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RE: DL Cancels Flight To Accommodate Basketball Charter

Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:23 am

Quoting 777ord (Reply 72):
Although the word "common" certainly seems like a poor word choice, it is the best word to use.

I know I've been on the operational side to get a charter for the NFL going or face that team from missing Monday Night Football. Could you imagine the damage done if the other team failed to show? Both on a company level, and, on the NFL and teams level?

We took that aircraft and ferried it to said location, ferried another plane and crew in 5 hours later to pick up the difference and arranged priority ATC the whole way to save a few minutes. Sadly that flight had 50 people going to LHR, which we delayed 2 hours (thanks to their 3 hour layover!!) by re booking the pax on the late LHR vs the mid afternoon one. We did NOT cancel, but we did have to compensate some 132 passengers... Cost of national embarrassment and contract cancellations etc... avoided by inconveniencing some 132 people.

Sometimes you just have to let it bleed a little to stop the problem.

Best explanation yet. Cheers!
 
cornutt
Posts: 333
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RE: DL Cancels Flight To Accommodate Basketball Charter

Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:43 am

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 42):
If it's a perfectly acceptable industry practice, I don't see why DL would be skittish to tell the customers the complete truth. I think it would help mitigate some misunderstandings.

To me, that's the problem. Frequent flyers all know that cancellations happen sometimes. But I know from experience that DL, for one (and I'm sure they're not the only one) can be awfully cagey about the status of flights when things aren't going well. We've all had the experience of having a flight delay dribbled out 20 minutes at a time, only to find out later that the flight had been cancelled hours ago. We've all had the experience of getting on board a flight, taxiing out to some remote corner of the airport, and then being told that there's a ground stop and we're going to be waiting for two hours with no cabin service and no internet. We've all had the experience of being told that a flight is being cancelled for weather reasons when we knew that the weather was severe clear along our route. And I personally have had the experience of being bumped off of a flight, and then told that there are no available seats to my destination for the next three days -- and surprise, surprise, no rental cars are available one-way to that destination either. I've also had the experience of being diverted to an alternate destination, being told that the flight is cancelled, going to the service counter, and the people there say "what do you expect us to do about it?" (Well, that was Eastern...)

Things like this are why an awful lot of people in the U.S. will take any other mode of transportation (except bus, maybe) before they'll consider flying. And I don't understand why the airlines aren't doing something to address that.
 
dlramp4life
Posts: 1001
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:23 pm

RE: DL Cancels Flight To Accommodate Basketball Charter

Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:09 am

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 26):
And here come the excuses again

Last I checked this is a discussion forum, I am simply discussing

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 26):
In this case I'm sure Florida wanted to get to BDL that day. They were scheduled to leave about 3PM and left about 4PM. They arrived just after 6PM. Not bad.

It appears you are repeating what I am saying or are you for once in agreement with me?

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 26):
If DL can't take the warranted criticism for the poor service, get the heck out of the service industry.

Please explain how that was bad service? All the PAX got vouchers and got accommodated for another flight. DL did not leave the pax to fend on their own as a ULCC would do. You have to prove a better point then

Seriously bro... I get it. Your bitter, DL is here NW is gone. If it will make you feel better most of DL leadership is NW. Plus the charter program is all possible because of NW. If it was lets say NW canceling a flight and accommodating a charter you would be on the opposite end of that spectrum wouldn't you?



Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 45):
Of course I'm biased towards DL but I'd like to think I'd think the same way if UA did the same thing

Every airline has done it and will keep doing it. I have dealt with this in my G4 days.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 45):
Edit: Had they not done this, we'd have a thread with everyone bashing DL for not getting the team up for the game. Damned if they do, damned if they don't

Indeed. Haters gonna hate. Even if the charter ran on time
 
DLX737200
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Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 6:42 am

RE: DL Cancels Flight To Accommodate Basketball Charter

Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:37 am

Quoting cornutt (Reply 74):

Things like this are why an awful lot of people in the U.S. will take any other mode of transportation (except bus, maybe) before they'll consider flying. And I don't understand why the airlines aren't doing something to address that.

I agree with you. But think about it, why should they address it? What other modes of transport get people from NY to LA in 6 hours or Florida to NY in 2-3? None. They are a monopoly. And until something equally fast shows up, airlines will continue to do as they please.
 
wjcandee
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Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: DL Cancels Flight To Accommodate Basketball Charter

Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:08 am

Quoting cornutt (Reply 74):
I don't understand why the airlines aren't doing something to address that.

Because it's not a real issue. Most of the time, things go fine. That's why. The rest is just whining.
 
opethfan
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Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:35 am

RE: DL Cancels Flight To Accommodate Basketball Charter

Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:19 am

Let me ask for clarification: had people already checked in and been assigned seats on this flight?

Because if they hadn't, it's like going with your partner to a nice restaurant for which you have a reservation and the host says upon your arrival, "I'm very sorry, there was a slight mistake with the reservations and your table isn't available just yet. Please be patient and we'll get you seated as soon as we can, and throw in a bottle of wine and a free appetizer for the inconvenience." Which, to me, is quite acceptable.

If the passengers HAD checked in, it's like going to said restaurant, stating your reservation, being seated, placing an order and then while waiting for your food having a manager come to your table and saying, "There's been a mixup and these business people are going to give us more money than you for the same table, so you need to go back to the lobby and wait for someone else to leave before you can eat. But we'll still give you the wine and free appetizer." Which, really, is only a step above having someone flip you the bird and call your partner fat and / or ugly.
 
cornutt
Posts: 333
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:57 am

RE: DL Cancels Flight To Accommodate Basketball Charter

Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:05 pm

Quoting DLX737200 (Reply 76):
I agree with you. But think about it, why should they address it? What other modes of transport get people from NY to LA in 6 hours or Florida to NY in 2-3? None. They are a monopoly. And until something equally fast shows up, airlines will continue to do as they please.

I hear you. We all know what some of the problems are on the demand side, i.e., customers that only go for the lowest fare and don't care/given any consideration to service while they are booking. And there's also the issue that TSA in effects puts limits on how timely airline flights can be, which particularly impacts shorter routes, and the more the time spent doing things other than actually being in the air piles up, the more this becomes a problem. Yes, airlines will always be the way to fly from New York to L.A. But for anything under about 500 miles, driving is becoming more competitive -- and a lot of those shorter routes to secondary destinations are where the airlines make their money.

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