Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
brilondon
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:56 am

RE: Any Chance Of A HKG-HNL-HKG Service?

Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:35 am

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 47):
By that logic, there would never be any new markets added anywhere at any time. It wasn't long ago that there were no flights to HNL from PEK, PVG and TPE. That didn't mean there was no markets there. It just meant that no carrier had exploited them yet.

I beg to differ. I believe that the market was tried and was not economically viable.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 47):
There are already 60 PDEW from HKG to HNL with no nonstop service. Plus another 100 from origin points that would best connect at HKG if the option existed. When you start out at 160 daily paxs of existing potential, you've got a potential market.

You have numbers that may still not make economic sense to do the route. It may take more than 100 PDEW to make the route sustainable, I don't know, but I believe the airlines would have already exploited the route if there was money to be made.
 
quiet1
Posts: 329
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:39 am

RE: Any Chance Of A HKG-HNL-HKG Service?

Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:38 am

Many moons ago, 1986 to be exact, UA did fly non-stop HNL-HKG (and return). It was right after the Pan Am Pacifc route acquisition, but the flight didn't last very long. IIRC, it was not a daily flight ... maybe 4x or 5x per week?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14688
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Any Chance Of A HKG-HNL-HKG Service?

Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:30 pm

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 52):
I personally love Hawaii. All those other destinations are nice too but nothing is quite like Hawaii. You have an English speaking first-world place where you can rent a car, do a host of things in addition to the beach.

Those other places are great when you stay in a resort then the moment you step out of it you are in slummy-type areas which are not attractive. In Hawaii I can rent a car, drive around, speak english, visit proper shops with nice stuff for sale, but nice food at the supermarket and cook it at the villa I've rented. No other destination within a few hours flight of HKG offers that.

People from Hongkong can find a lot of that on Taiwan. Hualien, Kenting, etc. Only that it is much closer, about half as costly and Service is excellent even by US Standards.... without any tipping. Plus there share a lot of culture, food... and there are quite a lot of people speaking Hakka or Mandarin in Hongkong these days. Of course in Taiwans south English isn´t the lingua franca.

best regards
Thomas
 
jetlanta
Posts: 1671
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2001 2:35 am

RE: Any Chance Of A HKG-HNL-HKG Service?

Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:16 pm

Quoting YLWbased (Reply 48):
The only way for this to happen is that for some reason the Tourism Office of Hawaii decided to do a massive promotion in Hong Kong, when I say massive, I mean covering everywhere massive which costs more than a few million bucks massive. Okinawa did that once, and it was utterly successful. They put Ads on Tram, Bus, MTR, Trains, Airport, Every Major Newspaper and Magazine, Editorial everyweek for a year, free tickets, lucky draw, the entire campaign end up costing the Okinawa government about 4.8 million USD, but it was a rather successful one. 3 years ago, you'd have almost heard of NO ONE in Hong Kong talks about having a vacation in Okinawa; now it is one of the most popular destination for Hong Kongers.

Do you not expect that the Hawaii Tourism Authority has more financial resources than Okinawa? Really?

Quoting brilondon (Reply 54):
I beg to differ. I believe that the market was tried and was not economically viable.

You don't know what you are talking about. Those are all new markets in the past two years. In fact, PEK hasn't even started yet, but both Air China and Hawaiian are entering it.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 54):
You have numbers that may still not make economic sense to do the route. It may take more than 100 PDEW to make the route sustainable, I don't know, but I believe the airlines would have already exploited the route if there was money to be made.

Again, you don't know. No one says new service will start out daily. There are 160 PDEW from SE Asia to HNL today. Virtually all of them connect over MNL (yikes!) or ICN/NRT (which are quite far out of the way). We are talking about over 1100 weekly passengers A well-timed flight on Hawaiian with interline or codeshare connections beyond HKG, operated a few times a week is absolutely feasible. Not only that, it is only a matter of time before it happens. Might not be HA, but someone will do it.
 
lahaina
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2000 1:51 am

RE: Any Chance Of A HKG-HNL-HKG Service?

Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:29 pm

HA should continue its TPE service onto HKG. Only issue is whether it's cabin service can measure up to CX or CI. Flew BIZ HNL to TPE in October. Cabin service was below of CI and CX. Crew chatted amongst themselves. Seat was more of premium economy than BIZ. Lounge in HNL was a joke compared to CI's lounge in TPE. People in Taiwan do talk, as most are seasoned travelers. Write to complain. Got a $100 voucher without saying how the problem would be fixed
HA has a lot to learn and to improve in the Chinese market if it wants to succeed.
 
COSPN
Posts: 1849
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 6:33 am

RE: Any Chance Of A HKG-HNL-HKG Service?

Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:59 pm

OKA are you kidding ?? its is COLD in the winter   
 
brilondon
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:56 am

RE: Any Chance Of A HKG-HNL-HKG Service?

Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:43 am

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 53):
You don't know what you are talking about. Those are all new markets in the past two years. In fact, PEK hasn't even started yet, but both Air China and Hawaiian are entering it.
Quoting jetlanta (Reply 53):

You don't read my posts before commenting on what they say. First I said flying from HKG had been tried in the past. Second you are talking about flying to PEK now and that is not what I was referring to. If you had even bothered to follow the thread and read what I had posted I stated I did not know what the threshold for service is for airlines to start such a service and obviously you don't have a clue as to what I was talking about. I will ask that you stop your baseless attacks unless you can produce the numbers for the demand to HKG. I have been to China and let me tell you that HKG is not PEK.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14688
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Any Chance Of A HKG-HNL-HKG Service?

Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:38 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 56):
I have been to China and let me tell you that HKG is not PEK.

Aside other differences, Hongkong does have warm weather (although very humid) and some nice beaches of its own. I´ve been to Hung Shing Yeh and Cheung Sha Beaches and found both very satisfactory (both trips where in May). Hawaiian culture might be a little bit too much of a niche. For shopping they probably rather go to DXB... they also have nice hotels and beaches. BKK might also be good for shopping, at least judging by the amount of shopping bags Taiwanese where carrying onto the plane when KLM did still fly AMS-BKK-TPE.

best regards
Thomas

[Edited 2013-12-06 05:40:26]
 
jetlanta
Posts: 1671
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2001 2:35 am

RE: Any Chance Of A HKG-HNL-HKG Service?

Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:32 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 56):
I will ask that you stop your baseless attacks unless you can produce the numbers for the demand to HKG.

Umm...

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 5):
Even today, without nonstop service, about 60 PDEW travel in the HKG-HNL O&D market. There are nearly 100 more in from other points across Southeast Asia.
Quoting jetlanta (Reply 43):
There are already 60 PDEW from HKG to HNL with no nonstop service. Plus another 100 from origin points that would best connect at HKG if the option existed. When you start out at 160 daily paxs of existing potential, you've got a potential market.
Quoting jetlanta (Reply 53):
There are 160 PDEW from SE Asia to HNL today.

Data is IATA PaxIS for YE July 2013.

And I wasn't attacking you, just your non-fact based argument.
 
User avatar
afterburner
Posts: 1467
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 11:38 am

RE: Any Chance Of A HKG-HNL-HKG Service?

Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:35 pm

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 5):
There are nearly 100 more in from other points across Southeast Asia.

So do you think these 100 pax will definitely choose to go to HNL via HKG?

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 53):
There are 160 PDEW from SE Asia to HNL today. Virtually all of them connect over MNL (yikes!) or ICN/NRT (which are quite far out of the way).

Using great circle mapper we can find out that the distances between main SE Asian airports and HNL via HKG are quite similar to the distances via NRT, HND, or ICN. Then the travel times depend more on the transit times than on the distances.

[Edited 2013-12-06 07:52:54]
 
jetlanta
Posts: 1671
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2001 2:35 am

RE: Any Chance Of A HKG-HNL-HKG Service?

Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:08 pm

Quoting afterburner (Reply 59):
So do you think these 100 pax will definitely choose to go to HNL via HKG?

Of course not. But many will.

Quoting afterburner (Reply 59):
Using great circle mapper we can find out that the distances between main SE Asian airports and HNL via HKG are quite similar to the distances via NRT, HND, or ICN. Then the travel times depend more on the transit times than on the distances.

Fair enough. But transit times are actually the issue. It is very difficult to build roundtrip connections via ICN or NRT with anything less than a five hour connection in at least one direction. In fact, CI's new TPE-HNL service is by far the most convenient routing available today. But this flight is new. I expect to see significant growth in the SE Asia market as a result of the CI (and HA) service. Service from HKG would have an even greater impact due to its superior connectivity versus TPE.
 
brilondon
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:56 am

RE: Any Chance Of A HKG-HNL-HKG Service?

Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:14 pm

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 58):
And I wasn't attacking you, just your non-fact based argument.

Apology accepted. My argument was based on the fact that no airline is currently flying the HNL-HKG route at this time. The reasons maybe that 160 passengers may not make enough of a profit for any airline to dedicate at least two aircraft a day. HNL is after all primarily a vacation destination and if there was a profit to be made I am sure the likes of CX, UA, DL, or even Dragonair would be flying it. The fact I am basing my point on is the lack of any air service between HNL and HKG. That is a fact and the point of this thread, right?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14688
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Any Chance Of A HKG-HNL-HKG Service?

Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:31 pm

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 60):
Service from HKG would have an even greater impact due to its superior connectivity versus TPE.

How many destinations, that make geographical sense, can be reached from HKG vs. TPE? How many of those require more backtracking on top of the one hour longer flight to the hub?

best regards
Thomas
 
B-HOP
Posts: 840
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 8:09 pm

RE: Any Chance Of A HKG-HNL-HKG Service?

Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:47 pm

Hawaii have a reputation with prices ex Hong Kong, along with getting an US visa for one week travel. For say HK$7-8k on low season I could do AUS maybe one stop on the ME big 3 to Europe, why Hawaii? It make more sense if JS HK oopen this route not CX, if I want a beach I get to Shek O instead for 8 bucks!!! If the young(almost) middle class 15k plus salary, self included, they would rather spend 2-3 weekends in Taiwan/Japan or Singapore, for those older, usually family, they may have different agenda, granted the market is there but it might not support a flight for now, a 7-8k fare along with 4-5k spending for a week would be a once year trip (same as mine to Sydney this summer) GUAM ,is doing better though given it is visa free now
 
User avatar
afterburner
Posts: 1467
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 11:38 am

RE: Any Chance Of A HKG-HNL-HKG Service?

Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:57 pm

Jetlanta, I think your arguments based on assumptions that all the pax choose the airlines by themself and know that certain airports have better connectivity than the others. Those aren't always true. A lot of tourists doing their vacations on packaged/arranged tours where tour operators choose the airlines, the hotels, etc for the them. And these tour operators based their choices on the prices most of the time.
 
jetlanta
Posts: 1671
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2001 2:35 am

RE: Any Chance Of A HKG-HNL-HKG Service?

Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:17 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 61):
Apology accepted. My argument was based on the fact that no airline is currently flying the HNL-HKG route at this time. The reasons maybe that 160 passengers may not make enough of a profit for any airline to dedicate at least two aircraft a day. HNL is after all primarily a vacation destination and if there was a profit to be made I am sure the likes of CX, UA, DL, or even Dragonair would be flying it. The fact I am basing my point on is the lack of any air service between HNL and HKG. That is a fact and the point of this thread, right?

No one is talking about two aircraft a day. In fact, I think it would likely be 2-3 flights per week. No one flies it today of course, but that doesn't mean it won't work. CX is a premium, business-oriented airline and Hawaii is a long-haul leisure market. Dragonair flies no similar sort of routes today, but may in the future. It really doesn't fit in the UA network. Delta, on the other hand is a good option. However, the route requires 12+ hour aircraft which are in short supply at Delta.

The most likely carrier for the route is Hawaiian. I expect that they will enter it at some point. But they've taken a hiatus from new markets as they attempt to digest recent growth. But there is nothing inherently worse about HKG-HNL's potential than PEK, BNE, TPE and any number of other routes that HA has added in recent years. In fact, a rational analysis of potential new markets for HA would certainly include HKG as one of the top opportunities.
 
jetlanta
Posts: 1671
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2001 2:35 am

RE: Any Chance Of A HKG-HNL-HKG Service?

Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:23 pm

Quoting afterburner (Reply 64):

Jetlanta, I think your arguments based on assumptions that all the pax choose the airlines by themself and know that certain airports have better connectivity than the others. Those aren't always true. A lot of tourists doing their vacations on packaged/arranged tours where tour operators choose the airlines, the hotels, etc for the them. And these tour operators based their choices on the prices most of the time.

I understand that, obviously. But the fundamentals of connectivity are still important. And if HA were to enter the HKG market, they would FAR more focused on building the group business than any of the other players.
 
User avatar
afterburner
Posts: 1467
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 11:38 am

RE: Any Chance Of A HKG-HNL-HKG Service?

Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:26 am

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 66):
And if HA were to enter the HKG market, they would FAR more focused on building the group business than any of the other players.

HA may only be able to target HKG-based tourists. For SE Asian-based tourists Japanese, Korean, and Taiwanese carriers offer much more convenience because they have strong presence in the region.
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3739
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: Any Chance Of A HKG-HNL-HKG Service?

Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:52 am

Quoting afterburner (Reply 67):
HA may only be able to target HKG-based tourists. For SE Asian-based tourists Japanese, Korean, and Taiwanese carriers offer much more convenience because they have strong presence in the region.

And for this very reason, is why Hawaiian opened China offices LONG before beginning nonstop flights to China. The name recognition began with starting interline agreements with Air China via ICN. Of course it takes time, HAL has done their homework and nonstop service starts to PEK in April. The same thing is being done with the new (from July '13) flight to TPE. A codeshare agreement has recently been approved and is being implemented with China Airlines. This will see HAL extend its reach beyond TPE into SE Asia. Everything has to start somewhere.

As for HKG, there is no doubt that HKG as well as PVG and other populated cities in China are on HALs radar. As has been mentioned many times already on this thread, things will happen slowly. When the visa limitations improve, things will start to pick up and perhaps one day we'll see China become a visa waiver country. When that happens, HAL will be prepared and the flood gates are very likely to open. Chinese tourists are already the biggest spenders in Hawaii, haven't recently eclipsed the Japanese. Their spending and vacationing potential is HUGE and HAL is smart to prepare to capitalize on that. I see no reason why the potential from HKG and other points in China are any different.
 
FlyboyOz
Posts: 1764
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2000 10:05 am

RE: Any Chance Of A HKG-HNL-HKG Service?

Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:24 am

I remember in the past - around 80's. Most Asian and Australian airlines flew between Asia/Australia to USA via HNL cos ancient 747 (-100, -200 and -300) could not fly nonstop across the Pacific Ocean. When a 747-400 come out, it could fly nonstop directly.
 
trex8
Posts: 5718
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: Any Chance Of A HKG-HNL-HKG Service?

Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:00 am

Quoting FlyboyOz (Reply 69):

I remember in the past - around 80's. Most Asian and Australian airlines flew between Asia/Australia to USA via HNL cos ancient 747 (-100, -200 and -300) could not fly nonstop across the Pacific Ocean. When a 747-400 come out, it could fly nonstop directly.

There was the 747SP which was why CI was an early customer for i for TPE-US westcoast. PA 741s also flew SFO-TYO.
 
FlyboyOz
Posts: 1764
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2000 10:05 am

RE: Any Chance Of A HKG-HNL-HKG Service?

Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:15 pm

Yeah forgot about 747SP - QF also used 747SP to USA

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos