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mjoelnir
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:32 pm

IMO the argument that there is no need for a "new" 757 type or size frame depends on a misunderstanding.
The misunderstanding is that a new WB will beat the CASM of a 757 on a route the 757 can operate.

All NB including the 757 have a better CASM on the routes they can do than a WB.
If you replace a 757 on a route with a WB including the 787 the trip cost will increase more than the capacity.
It will be difficult for a new WB to beat the CASM of a 757.
Of course all the new A320 and 737 are beating the CASM of the 757-200 on those routes they are able to operate on.

So on any route exceeding the capabilities of a A320/B737 and being inside the capabilities of a 757-200 the 757-200 is still the most efficient frame.

The main reason we have not seen a real 757 successor is, IMO that the Duopoly had no time for it, being occupied by more lucrative developments.
 
bmacleod
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:40 pm

OK this sounds silly but...how about a single aisle (6 seat across) version of the 787-8 with a narrower fuselage width? The 757 was basically a single aisle fuselage-width of the 767.  
 
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kanban
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:42 pm

Looking at all the rationalizations and justifications there is one thing missing.. the airlines didn't want any more. Boeing would have tweaked it had there been interest, they did bring out the -300, and still no significant interest.

On the other hand we all like to watch these planes, so why not be some agency, museum, or non profit aircraft fan club to buy one of each commercial plane hat has a big following and fly them to air shows like military museum pieces..? I think there's a Connie that does this, and Travolta's 707.. Why not add a DC-9, Allen's 757, a DC 6 , 7, and 8 as well?
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:12 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 102):
Looking at all the rationalizations and justifications there is one thing missing.. the airlines didn't want any more. Boeing would have tweaked it had there been interest, they did bring out the -300, and still no significant interest.

Because, at the time of the aviation crisis following 9/11, no airline needed more 757 at that time, having bags of rather new ones, there will be never any use for an aircraft of that size and capabilities ever again.

Does the above argument sound a little silly?

[Edited 2013-12-07 11:57:49]
 
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seahawk
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:54 pm

757 died too early. If Boeing would have done a NG instead of closing the line, they might be building those today. But a 757NG would have posed the question of a 767NG, which would be a direct competition to the 787.. so Boeing would rather not go there.
 
sonic67
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:55 pm

I Wonder if the 737 airframe would support additional stretch beyond the 9 series? I think a "737-10ER SuperMax" would probably sell if it was possible to produce .

[Edited 2013-12-07 13:57:38]
 
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cougar15
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:01 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 102):
On the other hand we all like to watch these planes, so why not be some agency, museum, or non profit aircraft fan club to buy one of each commercial plane hat has a big following and fly them to air shows like military museum pieces..? I think there's a Connie that does this, and Travolta's 707.. Why not add a DC-9, Allen's 757, a DC 6 , 7, and 8 as well?

yes please. where do I send my contribution for the Concorde Club  
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:04 pm

Quoting ADent (Reply 26):
There are no next gen engines for a 757 replacement and the market does not look like it could support a proper program. Convince Rolls to update the Trent 500 or P&W to come up with even more variants of the PW1000 GTF and maybe you can get something rolling.

It would involve adding about 30% to the most powerful PW1000 model. Not insurmountable, but expensive enough to need to sell a few hundred engines at least. But I figure it would probably cut SFC by something approaching 20% with an obligatory new CFRP wing.

How many 200-seat (high-density) aircraft with a 5,000nm range would we need?

Quoting sweair (Reply 25):
Regional WB´s is the latests trend, I would rather have 753 sized frames doing this work much more economical. We can leave about 30-40T of structure going NB on the shorter routes say up to 4000-5000nm.

That's true, but there's another issue: turn time. Turn time is an issue with the 753. It really takes a long time to unload that aircraft and load it up again. I was once in the last row of a full NW 753 and it took 27 minutes from when they opened the door until when I walked off the plane. The good news was that I didn't have to wait long for my baggage!
 
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cougar15
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:33 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 101):
OK this sounds silly but...how about a single aisle (6 seat across) version of the 787-8 with a narrower fuselage width? The 757 was basically a single aisle fuselage-width of the 767.


so there would be our much awaited 797...?
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:59 am

In the end, the 737-9 MAX and A321neo will likely take over most routes flown by the 757-200 now. As such, we'll never see a true 757 replacement from Boeing.
 
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jambrain
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:42 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 60):
As per empty weight per Passenger the 757 is not that much in advantage. 58 Tonnes/239 Pax = 243Kg/Pax, a A330-200 comes in at 297kg/pax, a A330-300 at 270kg and a 767-300 actually at 250kg/pax.

That's a very useful view,

Ferpe could answer this perfectly (no pressure!!):-

I would be very interested in a chart / tables showing the non-dimensional performance of current NB & WB frames as the stage length goes up from 0.5 - 8 k nm for top current and future frames 100 seat to - A380 size.

L/D for mid point cruise
Weight fractions: (Passenger + Freight) / mission mid point total weight
inverse of TSFC of the engines for mid point cruise

then a figure of merit (normalize each so the average is 1.00 and multiply up) to show what frame is best at each range.
 
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seahawk
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Sun Dec 08, 2013 11:35 am

I wonder if 757NG would have made more sense than the 748 for Boeing.
 
drgmobile
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:58 pm

Aircraft manufacturers don't sell aircraft this way. They design planes for the missions airlines want to operate, which change along with evolutions in the industry.

If they DID design aircraft like this, we'd never have a 747. We'd be flying around in more aerodynamic, jet-powered, composite filled super DC-3s.
 
PC12Fan
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:20 pm

Perhaps the 757X would have looked like this . .

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifieda...earch/photo_search.php?id=00011211
 
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NWAROOSTER
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:12 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 104):

757 died too early. If Boeing would have done a NG instead of closing the line, they might be building those today. But a 757NG would have posed the question of a 767NG, which would be a direct competition to the 787.. so Boeing would rather not go there.

Boeing quit building the 757 as there was no demand for the aircraft. It was not selling. Also, at that time Boeing had more interest in the 737 and the A321 was not a threat to Boeing. Times have changed and the A321 is catching up to the 757.
Boeing with their latest generation of the 737 has just about maxed out the 737 and will need to develop a new successor.   
 
LPSHobby
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:19 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 98):
Quoting LPSHobby (Reply 96):
this is what I have told in previous topics, a really 757 sucessor, with the same pax capacity and the same range could perform, for example, long haul routes from, for example, brazilian secondary cities to Europe or NA, from my city, CNF-Belo Horizonte, for example, so I don´t think this market is only for 50 units around the world.

But this traffic flows through the hubs at the moment, So the capacity of the 757NG would be missing a customers for the 777-747-A380 doing the flights between the major hubs.

but this is what is hapening with the 787 opening new city pairs, I think more diferent city pairs could be open with a 757 like new aircraft. New planes, new capabilities, new oportunities.
 
Max Q
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:11 am

A 757 NG would have been a huge success, and they would still be selling today, it is a niche in the market that was just starting to be tapped.


Back then, flying transcon in a 737 was unthinkable, look at the success of that today.


The 757Ng would have taken it further, there are untold markets for a fuel efficient narrowbody that can fly 5000Nm's and short hops economically.


No version of the 737 or A320 in service or in development comes close.


There was a temporary slump in the market and Boeing threw in the towel, very uncharacteristic of them and a big mistake.



It was, and is a magnificent and uniquely capable Aircraft.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:22 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 116):
uniquely capable

..which is marketing speak for "niche".... aka not a best seller. The 777-200LR is also uniquely capable.
The longer the reach of an airplane gets, the more is the structural weight defined by the ability to carry the fuel required, and the fuselage gets less and less important. At that point a narrow body stops making sense due to its disadvantage in comfort and cargo space. Check the A310-200 vs. the 757-200. Basically the same MTOW/PAX for the same range within 4-5%. Both have the same level of technology, the A310 being handicapped by being a shortened A300, but has a lot more revenue potential due to a) Cargo, b) longer possible range and c) better Pax comfort. The A310 can do a 3000nm trip with significant cargo one day, and carry pax to almost 5000nm on the next day. The 757 can´t do either mission. The 762 comes in even lighter as per MOTW/Pax and also falls in those Range capabilities.

It seems like the B757 pushed the edge of the "where NB makes sense" envelope to the limit, if not slightly beyond it. If there ever will be an extra plane for the 3000-5000nm thin missions, it will be a widebody.

best regards
Thomas
 
opethfan
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:27 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 116):
A 757 NG would have been a huge success, and they would still be selling today, it is a niche in the market that was just starting to be tapped.

If it was just starting to be tapped, why was there insufficient demand to keep the line going? Surely Boeing, rather than scour various forums to get their purchasing advice from enthusiasts with little to no inside dealings or relationships, would talk to Delta, United, AA, BA, FI, various international carriers, and all of the non-757 customers? Surely they'd want to see what their customers would want, and then design aircraft based on that?

B wanted to build the Sonic Cruiser, the airlines said no, we want (what is now) the 787. And of all of the 787's issues, getting orders isn't one of them.
 
Max Q
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:44 am

Quoting opethfan (Reply 118):
If it was just starting to be tapped, why was there insufficient demand to keep the line going?

If you use that logic why didn't Boeing shut down the 737-100 line when they couldn't give them away ?
There was a time when that Aircraft seemed doomed but they persevered and ended up with a world beater.



The 'insufficient demand' was a temporary slump.
A Ng version would have easily doubled sales of the 757, there is simply nothing that can replace it.
 
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seahawk
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:37 am

And the Trent500 could have been the engine.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:49 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 120):
And the Trent500 could have been the engine.

While the Trent 500 might be a good engine for an A310neo/A300neo (that we won´t see), it is much to powerful for a NB.

best regards
Thomas
 
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seahawk
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:01 am

Well it depends a version for the 757 seems possible just like the RB211-535E4B compared to the RB211-524G or H.

A 10% thrust reduced 553 could have worked pretty well for a 757-300NG ER.
 
Max Q
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:02 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 120):
And the Trent500 could have been the engine.

Maybe, I think it was a little big, isn't that 50k plus Shawk ?



More power wasn't really needed, a slightly uprated -535-E4B with better fuel efficiency accompanied by all the other NG enhancements Boeing planned for the 757 would have made for an outstanding Aircraft though.


Anyone have a link to a story on this planned development.



I remember a story in Flight in the late '90's but can't find it !
 
tommy1808
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:24 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 123):
NG enhancements Boeing planned for the 757 would have made for an outstanding Aircraft though.

And who conspired to shut that project down? After all keeping a line open for a while isn´t all that expensive. I would think it is a given that Boeing introduced the NG to all potential and existing customers and most, if not all, must have said "ney".
The B757 is dead because there was zero interest in it or the proposed NG version, simply because on most of its missions it could not hope to be competitive with 737NG or A32x and not much of a market between them and small widebodies the 757 could cover.

best regards
Thomas
 
planemaker
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:06 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 124):
The B757 is dead because there was zero interest in it or the proposed NG version, simply because on most of its missions it could not hope to be competitive with 737NG or A32x and not much of a market between them and small widebodies the 757 could cover.

Plus the significant higher purchase cost.
 
LH707330
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:28 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 122):
A 10% thrust reduced 553 could have worked pretty well for a 757-300NG ER.

How would you fit that under the wing...? The weight of the engine would also eat into OEW quite a bit.
 
tortugamon
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:36 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 89):
United's use of 757 to LHR, from New York no less, is an insult to consumers.

Personally, I do not mind flying 757s over A330s as long as I am in the front. I prefer 767s over them both but I don't understand the discontent with the 757s. I love UA's PS 757s.

Quoting sweair (Reply 92):
The day there is a NB that can do the regional routes that the WBs do today no new WB regional sales.

Although this is the trend I don't think this is entirely true. Asian airlines use WB on regional regional routes despite NBs being available. Also, sometimes the regional WB missions are for repositioning and utilization reasons which won't disappear.

Quoting sweair (Reply 92):
I would like a comparison between a 250 seat 788 vs a hypothentical 753 with GTF engines and modern wings on a 4000nm route, I am sure the 788 will look quite bad fuel wise here.

I too would like to see the fuel burn figures but Tommy's calcs here give us an idea:

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 60):
As per empty weight per Passenger the 757 is not that much in advantage. 58 Tonnes/239 Pax = 243Kg/Pax, a A330-200 comes in at 297kg/pax, a A330-300 at 270kg and a 767-300 actually at 250kg/pax.
A A321 at 220kg Pax or A B739ER at 208Kg/Pax.

When you factor in lower acquisition costs its easy to see why NBs have the advantage. The 737-9 MAX will have a 35% fuel burn advantage (trip cost) on the 752 and the fact that the MAX will roll off at 50/month means these aquisition costs would be dirt cheap in comparison. It is really tough to make these economics work.

Quoting incitatus (Reply 95):
Still, baking in risk, 500 units for a stand-alone narrow body program is not a viable business.

True. 500 would not be enough but I think that is conservative if an OEM can replicate A320/737 CASM in the larger plane and control production costs.

Quoting flyinggoat (Reply 99):
a freighter would help offset program cost. I could see FedEx and UPS picking up some.

I think they will have plenty of 757s and MD80 converted freighters to chose from in the next 10 years and even converted 737-8s that they won't be interested in a new single aisle freighters for a while.

Quoting sonic67 (Reply 105):
I Wonder if the 737 airframe would support additional stretch beyond the 9 series? I think a "737-10ER SuperMax"

Not without a significant gear re-do and a new wing.

I personally like the idea of rolling out the new single aisle program around 2025 starting with the larger model first (roughly the size of a 752.5) and then add the smaller family members later so Boeing/Airbus can mature the production techniques first.

tortugamon
 
tommy1808
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:12 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 127):
When you factor in lower acquisition costs its easy to see why NBs have the advantage.

I am not sure if the higher weight is a WB-penalty or due to the much higher range capabilities of the heavier WB.

If you compare Boeing 727 and 707 (same technology narrow short and long range plane) you get 240 & 303 KG/Paxe empty. DC-9 and DC-8 are much worse, but the DC-9 is really short range.

Given that those deltas are close to what we see from contemporary NB vs. WB planes i would assume the higher weight is mostly, if not completely, do to the higher range capabilities. If this is true the WB would be structurally more efficient since they have lots more cargo space for each m2 of main deck cabin.

best regards
Thomas
 
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seahawk
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:59 pm

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 126):
How would you fit that under the wing...? The weight of the engine would also eat into OEW quite a bit.

I thought about a Trent 500 optimized for the 757. If I am not wrong a RB engined 757 has 1,88 engine diameter and 0,91m ground clearance. The Trent is 2,50m wide. So imho a version with a fan diameter reduced to 2,20-2,25m should work.
 
tortugamon
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:02 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 128):
I am not sure if the higher weight is a WB-penalty or due to the much higher range capabilities of the heavier WB.

You could be right. And by eliminating the excess capacity it could make a very large impact. However, I think aircraft acquisition costs play a role. You can get roughly 4 NBs for 1 WB meanwhile the 4 NBs will carry more passengers than the 1 WB and the 4 NBs result in more frequency and flexibility.

tortugamon
 
tommy1808
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:13 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 130):
Quoting tortugamon (Reply 130):
You can get roughly 4 NBs for 1 WB meanwhile the 4 NBs will carry more passengers than the 1 WB and the 4 NBs result in more frequency and flexibility.

Which is true for A32x/B737 class aircraft, it would not be true for a B757 replacement since that wouldn´t reach those production numbers and probably not even those of WB planes. Prices for Aircraft should scale quite proportional to weight given same production numbers.

best regards
Thomas
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:51 pm

I don't understand the need... for short field routes, the 738/A320 is replacing the 752 albeit at a small capacity reduction. Where capacity is important but short field performance is not, the 739ER and A321 are doing a fine job. That only leaves TATL, which is a goal of the A321NEO, but the range is short. The minimum TATL range is 3800nm and 4100nm is preferred. The A321NEO is scheduled to enter service with 3,650nm range, but 'rumblings' show Pratt might have indeed beat the fuel burn promise by 4%. That implies 3,800nm range for the A321NEO. Then the question becomes 'where can more fuel be stored?' If Airbus puts a tail fuel tank, mostly for weight/balance than volume, it should increase the range another 100nm (perhaps 200nm with fuel volume). That removes the last set of routes.

What surprises me is Airbus didn't increase the thrust on the A321. (I think they will.) This will further help short field performance.

The issue for both the A321 and -9MAX is wing loading... If either puts in folding wingtips...   

Quoting bjorn14 (Thread starter):
Note: There have been threads about this last one was 4 years ago...time to update.

There have been sub-parts of threads multiple times per month!

Quoting planemaker (Reply 125):
Plus the significant higher purchase cost.

   But fuel burn and maintenance costs don't help.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 119):
A Ng version would have easily doubled sales of the 757, there is simply nothing that can replace it.

   We have 739ERs and A321s currently replacing enough of the 752 missions. The 757 has been effectively replaced. Just as the 707 was replaced by aircraft not quite of its gauge...

Lightsaber
 
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par13del
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:14 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 42):
With current restrictions on checked baggage, does it really matter if A320/B737 cannot carry same amount B757.

The restriction is money, folks from the Caribbean travel to the USA for shopping trips, they will pay the price.
Not accepting the baggage because of the limitations of the a/c meant that they were leaving money on the table, made a huge business case for cargo operators.

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 79):
The reason there's a gap between the 321 and the 788 is because there's not enough demand to fill it....
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 82):
That said, your point stands: right now there is a hole in the airliner market between the 739/A321 and the A332/788. I am not sure whether that hole exists because the OEMs haven't gotten to it or because the airlines have said that they don't need aircraft in that size range. The latter possibility would really surprise me, though.

Well, when Airbus made the A321 they eliminated all the excess of the 757 and everyone was happy, except when it came time to sell the a/c to the USA and they tried to do Transcon ops with it, since then, all Airbus has been doing is to move the A321 closer and closer to the 757 from the -200 to the coming NEO.

My take is that OEM's loose money if they offer a 757 size / type / capability a/c which will take away market share from the higher margin wide body a/c. AA for example using 762's on transcon are now replacing with A321, imagine if the bulk of the 767's being used by USA carriers could have 70% of their missions replaced by 757 capable a/c, how many 767's go to deep South America and other points in the Caribbean for example? Certainely the 737 / A320 has taken on the this market, how many more?
Would such an a/c do to the widebody a/c what the A320 / 737 did to the 757?
 
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scbriml
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:25 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 116):
A 757 NG would have been a huge success, and they would still be selling today, it is a niche in the market that was just starting to be tapped.

"Huge success" and "niche" are contradictory.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 116):
The 757Ng would have taken it further, there are untold markets for a fuel efficient narrowbody that can fly 5000Nm's and short hops economically.

Yet nobody's building such a beast, I wonder why not?   

A single-aisle capable of 5,000nm is going to be very heavy and unsuited to short segments.
 
LH707330
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:26 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 134):
A single-aisle capable of 5,000nm is going to be very heavy and unsuited to short segments.

Right, but the capabilities will give you limitless options. Time for a 707NG! We can replace the JT3Ds with GTFs off the CSeries, which will improve field performance by 30%, fuel consumption by 35%, and carry pax, bags, and cargo for a solid 6500 nm! Who wouldn't want to buy such a winner? 
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:43 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 133):
The restriction is money, folks from the Caribbean travel to the USA for shopping trips, they will pay the price.

Yes, but that still represents a very small percentage of the NB market. And if it was that much money then in-service 757s would redeploy there.
 
brilondon
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:56 am

RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:33 am

Quoting rwessel (Reply 24):
Errr... They weigh like a 757, but have a payload and range like a 737? While that's a smidge unfair to the -204, not by all that much.

Is that the reason for the Russians developing the TU-214?

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 49):
How does this work? The 762 (non-ER) has slightly higher capacity and similar range, and the 752 has similar capacity but substantially less range compared to a 707-320B-A.

The cost of fuel fueled (pun intended) the 767 during the 70's oil crisis when the 767 was proposed. It was the direct replacement for the 707 but with only two engines. Oh the horror, only two engines hence the ETOPs regulations.
 
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seahawk
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RE: Who Will A Build A True 757 Replacement?

Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:56 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 132):
What surprises me is Airbus didn't increase the thrust on the A321. (I think they will.) This will further help short field performance.

147-148kn are planed for the new engines. I guess both could do 150 if asked to.

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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos