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LAXintl
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Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:54 am

I suppose anything to help salvage the models business case and help prop up market values.


Airbus yesterday presented operators an option to increase certified seat counts on the A340 family to up to 475.

Proposed 9-abreast versions could in theory translate up to $5.5mil in added revenue per year for operators making the A340 more competitive with the 777 family.
Airbus has come under pressure from operators as residual values of the type have been dropping rapidly.

Airbus’s Longest Aircraft Gets More Seats to Help Rebuild Value
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-1...e-seats-to-help-rebuild-value.html

=

So much for Airbus idea of 18-inch seats   
 
PEK777
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:56 am

An act of total desperation
 
phxa340
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:02 am

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
So much for Airbus idea of 18-inch seats  

Lol, shows you that you need to be careful what you say and carefully think about unintended consequences.

Quoting PEK777 (Reply 1):
An act of total desperation

  

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Proposed 9-abreast versions could in theory translate up to $5.5mil in added revenue

Assuming this is for the A346 and A345, the A343 really isn't that bad of a fuel guzzler when compared to the 77E.
 
silentbob
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:09 am

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
So much for Airbus idea of 18-inch seats

They will do whatever their customers ask, as long as it is physically possible. For what it's worth, Boeing will do the same thing. I'm not basing anyone, just stating facts.
 
deltalaw
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:17 am

Quoting PEK777 (Reply 1):

Funny what Airbus is willing to suggest when facing $billions in potential payouts to customers.
 
SASMD82
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:47 am

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 2):
Assuming this is for the A346 and A345, the A343 really isn't that bad of a fuel guzzler when compared to the 77E.

Regarding fuel consumption, the A346 has a little better CASM than the old 744, can you imagine what fuel guzzler the 744 is, and nobody speaks about the plane. The A345 is a niche plan and with current fuel prices, it seems to be logical that this plane is not making money.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:35 am

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
So much for Airbus idea of 18-inch seats
Quoting phxa340 (Reply 2):
Lol, shows you that you need to be careful what you say and carefully think about unintended consequences.

Except for the fact that the A340 isn't mentioned when talking about 18" seats.
http://www.airbus.com/presscentre/pr...ew-standard-for-long-haul-comfort/
What, no A340?


Quoting silentbob (Reply 3):
They will do whatever their customers ask, as long as it is physically possible. For what it's worth, Boeing will do the same thing. I'm not basing anyone, just stating facts.

  
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:24 am

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Airbus yesterday presented operators an option to increase certified seat counts on the A340 family to up to 475.

Will that not require adding one of more additional pair of exits?

Per the TCDS, the current Exit Limits for the A340 family are 375 (A340-500), 420 (A340-200) and 440 (A340-300 / A340-600).

[Edited 2013-12-04 23:25:09]
 
tommy1808
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:49 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
Will that not require adding one of more additional pair of exits?

Per the TCDS, the current Exit Limits for the A340 family are 375 (A340-500), 420 (A340-200) and 440 (A340-300 / A340-600).

Does anyone have Information from those planes evacuation Tests? If they got 440 people out of the A343 in lets say 81 seconds, then i don´t see much of a problem to get 475 certified.

I think its a smart move to make the planes more attractive for secondary markets, since a used A343 with 9 Seats/Row can probably beat a used B772 in terms of operating costs or get close enough to it to matter.
It probably well invested money as it will decrease the gap Airbus will have to cover for current operators.

best regards
Thomas
 
gigneil
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:53 am

Quoting PEK777 (Reply 1):
An act of total desperation
Quoting deltalaw (Reply 4):
Funny what Airbus is willing to suggest when facing $billions in potential payouts to customers.

Why is this desperate or funny?

Customers asked for something. Airbus is providing it.

Grow up.

NS
 
CRJ900
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:05 am

I thought the A340-500 was already certified for 440 pax and the A340-600 for 475 pax since they entered service years ago?

I can see Lufthansa reconfiguring their A346 with super-slimline seats at 29-30 inch pitch.
 
aerokiwi
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:25 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 6):
Except for the fact that the A340 isn't mentioned when talking about 18" seats.

Semantics. They want an 18" standard for seats across the industry. Oh except for their legacy projects, in which case, it doesn't count. Uhuh. As soon as you add a "but" or an "except" in there, your credibility vanishes.

Kinda like those old print adverts with an A340 over ominous, stormy seas - "If you're over the middle of the Pacific, you want to be in the middle of four engines." Then a decade later, we have the A350. Or Boeing and its ridiculous "Dreaminer" moniker (nee. nightmare). Marketing bollocks, the lot of it, and deservedly called out. Let the engineering speak for itself.
 
Ruscoe
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:30 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 9):
Customers asked for something. Airbus is providing it.

I am not that is the sequence though.

I doubt enough customers will do this to solve the residual value problem.

Customers do have a choice, the alternative is to just ask for the money from Airbus.

Ruscoe
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:53 am

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 10):
I thought the A340-500 was already certified for 440 pax and the A340-600 for 475 pax since they entered service years ago?

The FAA and EASA TCDS show the Exit Limits to be 375 and 440, respectively.

Technically, the A340-600 should be good for 475 thanks to having four Type A and one Type III doors, however that set of Type III doors were added because the distance between Doors 2L/R and Doors 3/R were 14 feet farther than rules allow and I guess that means they do not count towards raising the Exit Limit.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-600-exit-change-proposals-124453/
 
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seahawk
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:06 am

TK is using some A343 on medium range high density routes. With that options these planes would stay competitive for a longer period.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:12 am

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 5):
Regarding fuel consumption, the A346 has a little better CASM than the old 744, can you imagine what fuel guzzler the 744 is, and nobody speaks about the plane. The A345 is a niche plan and with current fuel prices, it seems to be logical that this plane is not making money.

The 744 is certainly bad. The big difference here is that the majority of those 744's are older - to much older - than the vast majority of those A345/346's. Thus it's a little less of a financial hit currently for the 744 operators because they have less time remaining on the frames. In other words, the A340 operators have more to lose going forward at this point, IMHO.

-Dave
 
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:39 am

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Proposed 9-abreast versions could in theory translate up to $5.5mil in added revenue per year for operators making the A340 more competitive with the 777 family.

I would like to see the numbers they based that calculation on. We could use it as a standard for comparing aircraft different seat counts/mix.
 
Unflug
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:45 am

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 10):
I thought the A340-500 was already certified for 440 pax and the A340-600 for 475 pax since they entered service years ago?
Quoting Stitch (Reply 13):
The FAA and EASA TCDS show the Exit Limits to be 375 and 440, respectively.

Technically, the A340-600 should be good for 475 thanks to having four Type A and one Type III doors, however that set of Type III doors were added because the distance between Doors 2L/R and Doors 3/R were 14 feet farther than rules allow and I guess that means they do not count towards raising the Exit Limit.

Strange, the Airbus product page says 475 in high density seating:

http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamili...340family/a340-600/specifications/

The archived pages (wayback) of this page show that this information has not changed at least since February 2011. The number of 475 is obviously not new.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:01 am

Quoting Unflug (Reply 17):
Strange, the Airbus product page says 475 in high density seating:

It may be that regulatory authorities that do not directly adopt the FAA or EASA TCDS may allow a higher Exit Limit. On PPrune.org a pilot with an unnamed A340-600 operator noted that their Airline Operations Manual for the type states the Evacuation Limit is 475.
 
CiC
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:58 am

Quoting deltalaw (Reply 4):
as long as it is physically possible.

physically possible if you have passengers only 1,60m tall...!!!

I already have real big issues with seat pitch less than 32'' and on Spanair's 320 (as far as I know 26'') and LH's 346 with the 28'' eco seats they always have to reseat me...
So why they think tall pax always can effort to pay biz????? If you have to fly for your job and the company doesn't pay biz they expect you pay by yourself?
 
tommy1808
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:14 pm

Quoting CiC (Reply 19):
So why they think tall pax always can effort to pay biz????? If you have to fly for your job and the company doesn't pay biz they expect you pay by yourself?

Actually German regulations for Workplace safety would force them to put you on an aircraft with acceptable Seating or pay for business class. I think that is usually just not discussed. In my company i have to fly Y-Class, i have to book a flight close to the cheapest for that destination, but i don´t have to chose 10-Seat Y-Class 777s.
What some Airlines might do is to replace some of the Y seats with one more per row and use they space saved for Economy Plus seating, increasing yield instead of tot capacity.

best regards
Thomas
 
airbazar
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:56 pm

Quoting PEK777 (Reply 1):
An act of total desperation

Why? It's not like Airbus is planning to sell any new A340's. This is what existing customers are asking and Airbus will do it only if there is a real financial benefit. I can see this being a valuable improvement for charter operators.
 
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Boeing778X
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:29 pm

Quoting PEK777 (Reply 1):
An act of total desperation

The 777X is probably freaking them out. The current 777 is doing a pretty good job killing off the A340 by itself.



Quoting airbazar (Reply 21):
I can see this being a valuable improvement for charter operators.

That'll probably be the only use of the A340 soon, charter/private
 
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EPA001
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:34 pm

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 22):
The 777X is probably freaking them out.

How is an airplane that will have an EIS somewhere in 2020 freaking out an Airbus airplane which is no longer in production? I fail to see any connection between the two.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:05 pm

This is the only way to create a resale market for the A345/A346. Past due IMHO.

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Airbus yesterday presented operators an option to increase certified seat counts on the A340 family to up to 475.

A fair number.

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
So much for Airbus idea of 18-inch seats

   But... I won't be their fault.  

Seriously, I care more about pitch than width. I would rather save a small bit of air fare.

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 5):
the A346 has a little better CASM than the old 744

Not in high density Y in a 744 vs. 8 across Y in the A346. If passengers will not pay for their meter squared of space, then allocate to them what they will pay for.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 23):
How is an airplane that will have an EIS somewhere in 2020 freaking out an Airbus airplane which is no longer in production?

Agreed. The resale will be hurt by the 787/A350 once the two have over 400 planes in service. That should be in 2016...
Airbus is on the hook for $20 to $50 million in residual value guarantees for the A345/A346s sold. We just had a thread on how that could be up to $2 billion dollars.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 21):
This is what existing customers are asking and Airbus will do it only if there is a real financial benefit.

The residual value guarantees ensure Airbus will do this. Also, I suspect Airbus is fighting a retreating battle trying to keep from promising leasing companies residual value guarantees. ILFC took a $1.1 billion dollar charge on their 4 engine airframe residual values which was mostly A346s.


Lightsaber
 
tommy1808
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:09 pm

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 22):
That'll probably be the only use of the A340 soon, charter/private

Airlines like Lufthansa, that haul a lot of heavy Cargo around, will probably keep the A346 around for quite some time since they have a business case where the difference to a 77W is not all that big.
For low cost long range operations a 9 seat/row A343 should be able to beat the B772 economics. If aircrafts have significant idle time they already do today due to low purchasing prices. They will probably replace 2nd Hand B762/763s at their operators that will hand them down or have them converted into fright versions.

best regards
Thomas
 
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neutrino
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:36 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 25):
or have them converted into fright versions.

I am afraid, very afraid!   can't resist.

Seriously, it had been said many times on here that the A340 will make very poor freighters and that the feed stock is simply to low to make the hassle of conversion viable.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:42 pm

Quoting neutrino (Reply 26):
Quoting neutrino (Reply 26):
I am afraid, very afraid! can't resist.

I´d like to buy an "e".  
Quoting neutrino (Reply 26):
Seriously, it had been said many times on here that the A340 will make very poor freighters and that the feed stock is simply to low to make the hassle of conversion viable.

No, i mean that current 2nd hand users of B762/763 will have them converted into freighters and replace them with very cheap to acquire A343 instead. As they are cheap and competitive (or better?) in fuel burn.

best regards
Thomas
 
Logos
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:47 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 25):
have them converted into fright versions.

I'm not sure I'd want to fly on a fright version.

Cheers,
Dave in Orlando
 
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EPA001
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:57 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 24):
Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 5):
the A346 has a little better CASM than the old 744

Not in high density Y in a 744 vs. 8 across Y in the A346.

In this case CASM is not the best measurement to compare the B744 with the A346.

Ferpe made a more telling overview in this thread: Airbus May Owe $2 Billion On A340 Guarantees (by enilria Dec 3 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Quote:

Here the table complemented with block fuel burn and then everyone can divide with the pax number they think is reasonable

343....1.10......84.4
345....1.14......95.0
346....1.09....103.8
744....1.18.....123.8
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:14 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 29):
Ferpe made a more telling overview in this thread:

As always, Ferpe's analysis is excellent. But something missing. Somehow 744s are being kept over A346s. Why? I suspect it is the difference between the CF6 and T500 maintenance costs as well as airframe maintenance costs..

Or its that those m^2 are carrying more butts on the 744s thus pushing them to be kept. In that case, this increase in density will prolong the A346 lives. I'm not hopeful on the A345 shrink despite how gorgeous an airframe it is.

Lightsaber
 
rcair1
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:48 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 6):
Except for the fact that the A340 isn't mentioned when talking about 18" seats.

It was pure marketing anyway - to be expected.

BTW - here is what the diagram SHOULD have looked like. They dramatically exaggerated the change. What I did was take their 17" Boeing seat and properly scale it to 18 and 18.5". Then overlaid what Airbus shows as the scaled seat.
The actual size of the Airbus seat if the scale was correct was just over 20". BTW - Boeing would probably do the same thing. Why? Just not dramatic enough

 
mham001
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:49 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 9):
Why is this desperate or funny?

Customers asked for something. Airbus is providing it.

Grow up.

NS

After that snippy retort, could you please provide some source that airlines have requested anything? I did not see that in the article. Do you know another?

Quoting airbazar (Reply 21):
This is what existing customers are asking

Again, where?
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:00 pm

Airbus would not be spending the engineering and certification resources if there was not interest/demand from operators.
 
DUSint
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:20 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 24):
This is the only way to create a resale market for the A345/A346. Past due IMHO.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 24):
Airbus is on the hook for $20 to $50 million in residual value guarantees for the A345/A346s sold. We just had a thread on how that could be up to $2 billion dollars.

  
This seems to be the most logical approach on the matter in hand.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 33):
Airbus would not be spending the engineering and certification resources if there was not interest/demand from operators.

  
Airbus might have calculated that the need of residual value guarantees will drop significantly enough to justify those resources.
 
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enilria
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:30 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):

I suppose anything to help salvage the models business case and help prop up market values.

Exactly. They are desperate to avoid that $2 billion exposure...

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
So much for Airbus idea of 18-inch seats

...even if it means looks foolish...

Quoting PEK777 (Reply 1):

An act of total desperation

...and desperate.

To me, this really hurts the A380. I know it is a much bigger plane, but the market for high-capacity aircraft is only so large (and this puts the A340 in the ballbark) and the A380 is already dimensionally challenged at a lot of airports. I assume this is aimed at RyanAir and their ilk.

[Edited 2013-12-05 08:32:33]
 
LH707330
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:43 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 30):
Or its that those m^2 are carrying more butts on the 744s thus pushing them to be kept. In that case, this increase in density will prolong the A346 lives. I'm not hopeful on the A345 shrink despite how gorgeous an airframe it is.

Yes, the 744s in charter service are crammed to the gills, so they get better total net revenue even if net revenue/pax is lower than for the A346.
 
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PW100
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:44 pm

Quoting PEK777 (Reply 1):
An act of total desperation

You mean the same act of total desperation when Boeing decided to offer 10 abreast on the 777?

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 11):
Semantics. They want an 18" standard for seats across the industry. Oh except for their legacy projects, in which case, it doesn't count. Uhuh. As soon as you add a "but" or an "except" in there, your credibility vanishes

I don't think Airbus brochure lists the 340 for sale. So yes, while somewhat remarkable, not very strange to offer after market products that are not in line with your current brochure set up.

A lot of poohah for almost nothing. Never let an opportunity to bash go unused . . .

Rgds,
PW100
 
ferpe
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:50 pm

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 2):
Assuming this is for the A346 and A345, the A343 really isn't that bad of a fuel guzzler when compared to the 77E.
Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 5):
Regarding fuel consumption, the A346 has a little better CASM than the old 744

This is not correct, the A346 is the most economical of the lot, even a bit better then a 777-200ER on fuel burn (fuel in tonnes for a 6000nm trip, then relative burn per m2 and per pax):

...........trip fuel t.........% /m2.....%/pax..vs. the 333
788......58.9................88..........94 /242
77W.....96.5................96........101 /365
333......76.4..............100........100 /295
77E......84.3.............102.........108 /301
332.....71.0...............104........110 /250
346....103.8..............109........105 /380
343......84.4..............110........110 /295
767W...61.0..............112........115 /204
345......95.0..............114.........117 /313
744....123.8.............118..........115 /416

One can debate the seat counts to death, I included them here so they can be compared to the m2 figures, with the trip fuel everyone can divide with the pax count of their liking. What the table shows however is that the A346 is quite competitive on fuel burn, 105% vs 115% on usual pax counts vs the 744, ie a full 10% better. 4-10% (depending on how you count) is the impossible "fuel guzzling" of the 346 vs the 77W, so what does then the 10% of the 346 vs the 744 represent? Actually the 744 runs in the "impossible" A345 class on fuel burn, hard to believe when one read the comments of the self-proclaimed experts in this thread.

The fuel costs of a 346 vs a 77E are comparable and the program puts the engine maintenance costs at the same, ergo it gives you the economics of the 77E for a 346 so where is the problem?

[Edited 2013-12-05 10:16:15]
 
airbazar
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:00 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 30):
As always, Ferpe's analysis is excellent. But something missing. Somehow 744s are being kept over A346s. Why?

Like who? I'm not sure there is enough evidence of that, if any at all. There have been very few airlines operating both types side by side for the evidence to be conclusive enough. LH and VS being the 2 biggest ones and neither is retiring the A346 just yet. In fact the 744 seems to have been more often replaced by 77W's than the A346. SQ and CX come to mind as airlines that replaced or are in the process or replacing their entire fleet of 744's by 77W's while only very recently have we started to see airlines replace A346's and those are very few. Most I think will hold on to their A346's until they can be replaced by the next gen or aircraft (A350/787/777X).
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:11 pm

Quoting PW100 (Reply 37):
You mean the same act of total desperation when Boeing decided to offer 10 abreast on the 777?

Boeing has clients falling over themselves to buy new 10-abreast 777. Certifying the A340 up to 475 seats is largely to protect Airbus from making significant compensation claims to their end users. You be the judge if either of those moves is "desperate."

Quoting Stitch (Reply 33):
Airbus would not be spending the engineering and certification resources if there was not interest/demand from operators.

Respectfully, that is not a given. It is standard practice for an OEM to evaluate concepts on their own dime for the purpose of drumming customer interest.

Unless I have misread the article, it does not state that a particular client is interested or requesting the capacity up-rate. Although like others have said, it is a sensible move to broaden the product's appeal with charter operators.
 
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Boeing778X
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:16 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 23):

Well, seeing how the current 777s basically obliterated Airbus' investment in the A340, I really don't see how planes like the A345 and A346 are viable beyond this decade. The A340 is almost dead, 777s, 787s and A350s will ensure that
 
na
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:18 pm

Quoting PEK777 (Reply 1):
An act of total desperation

And how to you call it when Boeing cramps 10 into a row on the 777 sardine can configuration?

Quoting gigneil (Reply 9):
Why is this desperate or funny?

Customers asked for something. Airbus is providing it.

  

Not that I like it, but the 777 with 10 is the same crap as an A340 with 9.
 
ferpe
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:27 pm

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 41):
The A340 is almost dead, 777s, 787s and A350s will ensure that

Sorry but this is totally off the mark, the 343 EISd 20 years!! before the 788, the 343, 346 is competitive with every 777 except the 777-300ER once the engine MX is fixed and the 350 is in flight test  Wow! .

What do you expect, the 10 or 20 years of development means nothing? Get real.
 
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EPA001
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:31 pm

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 41):
Well, seeing how the current 777s basically obliterated Airbus' investment in the A340, I really don't see how planes like the A345 and A346 are viable beyond this decade.

But that is something totally different then Airbus being afraid of an airplane which will have it's planned EIS still 7 years away. And which by itself is (one could argue) Boeing's desperate response to the A35J.  

And again, Ferpe's highly reliable numbers show that the A340's all were very efficient, and actually the benchmarks when they hit the market. But only 3-4 years later came the enormous success of the B77W and the story is told. The B77W was amazingly good and even exceeded what Boeing and GE were expecting from it by quite a margin. Combined with rising fuel prices and the ETOPS-extensions the success of the B77W was unstoppable, no matter how good the newest A340's were.

But the image that some still uphold that the A340 was an inefficient gas guzzler was never true, and still is not true today. Even though the efficiency benchmark keeps moving forward, leaving airliners out of production more and more behind.
 
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zeke
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:36 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):

The overwing exits were not included in the basic A340-600 aircraft definition. Early A340-600s had mod 47270 applied, later ones had mod 47271 which was the serial solution. The mod is for "FUSELAGE - CENTER FUSELAGE - INTRODUCE OVER WING EXIT ON FWD UPPER SHELL".

The type 3 overwing exit allowed for an additional 35 pax, hence 440+35=475
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:45 pm

Quoting DUSint (Reply 34):
Airbus might have calculated that the need of residual value guarantees will drop significantly enough to justify those resources.

I would project a *nice* ROI.

Isn't the max current 360 passengers? (I'm asking...) So another 115 is quite a bit of cheapo revenue.

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 36):
Yes, the 744s in charter service are crammed to the gills, so they get better total net revenue even if net revenue/pax is lower than for the A346.

  

I have *extremely* fond memories of flying PE 747s when I was young. Boy were they packed in. So much they ran out of meals and my father had to go without. So his memories might not be as fond... (Then again, they traded a few drinks for the meal and he ate before leaving home for the night flight...)

Quoting airbazar (Reply 39):
LH and VS being the 2 biggest ones and neither is retiring the A346 just yet.

VS has started A346 retirement. Several are already parked by Airbus. DL, LH, and QF have slowed 744 retirements with QF keeping the 744ERs much longer than I thought they would. (No direct A346 comparison... ) I recall LH planning a slower retirement for the 744s than the A346s. If I'm wrong, please post a link.

744s are and should be retired. But there is more life in them than Ferpe's excellent numbers. (There are more terms than just the one number.)

Lightsaber
 
wingman
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:07 pm

I tried post a very balanced, factual, and well sourced piece from the WSJ yesterday in the other thread, now locked. Anyone can Google it under "Airbus Sales Guarantees". It's blocked from linking here but it clearly spells out a very specific issue confronting Airbus, not its customers, about a single 340 series product category, the NG line. This is the line that Airbus made sales guarantees on, and which for the most part, they are liable for. This liability is coming due as leases or guarantee periods are coming to an end. Customers aren't asking for more capacity, the already know its there from the product guide if they want it, so far no takers. Unlike the 773ER, they aren't responding to customer demand, they're trying to create it in order to limit their potential liability.

To say that they're desperate to protect themselves against this is an exaggeration. They could absorb this twice over and be done with any pain in a single quarter. But $2B is $2B and shareholders don't like it when people just piss it down the drain without any effort to reverse course. This is why Airbus held its Marketing Event and John made his comments about the rebirth of the 340. This is about Airbus, not about its customers. And Airbus probably hasn't spent a dime on 10X abreast since that original spec sheet came out. Their only investment right now was the event itself.

So no need to get gleeful about this and slam Airbus and no need to get defensive. Boeing got caught with its pants down more times than I can remember, and right now Airbus is experiencing the same thing with these guarantees. Simple as that.
 
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Boeing778X
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:23 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 44):

In terms of fuel ecomony, A340s are angels compared to, say, Classic 747s and maybe newer twins like 767s. On newer A340s, RR Trent 700s are terrific engines. Very clean and efficient.
But in all honestly, as fuel prices continue to fluctuate, these three and four holed jets are gonna vanish at an alarming rate. The MD-11s (PAX) are gone, 747 Classics are gone, the 747-8 is at high risk, and I think IMO that the A340 is at risk as well. Airlines are beginning to want twins more and more.
In terms of desperation, I'm sure Boeing was desperate, but after what just happened in Dubai, I'm sure they're resting easy.
Likewise, if Airbus didn't see the 777X as a threat, they wouldn't be investigating the option of an A350-1100.

Capitalism at its finest 

To be fair, the only 4 engined jet I see lasting into the 2030s for PAX service is the A380-800 (And -900.)
 
DUSint
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RE: Airbus Proposes Up To 475 Seat A340 Versions

Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:25 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 47):
they aren't responding to customer demand, they're trying to create it in order to limit their potential liability.
Quoting wingman (Reply 47):
They could absorb this twice over and be done with any pain in a single quarter. But $2B is $2B and shareholders don't like it when people just piss it down the drain without any effort to reverse course.

Very balanced point of view.
Shareholders like to know what was done to counter a potential (and foreseeable) problem...

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