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flyenvi
Topic Author
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:24 pm

DL LAS-NRT?

Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:00 am

What's up with this? This is from Delta's route map on their website.

Am I reading it wrong? Mistake by DL? Glimpse into the future?

 
cokepopper
Posts: 521
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 9:44 pm

RE: DL LAS-NRT?

Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:05 am

The future as in Jan/14 as we have a couple of Scheduled non-stops LAS-NRT flights
 
MesaFlyGuy
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RE: DL LAS-NRT?

Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:07 am

IIRC there are a few flights for an electronics convention (or something like that) being held in Vegas.
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
MIflyer12
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RE: DL LAS-NRT?

Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:10 am

That's a long way in a 76W but no worries about high temps in January.
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
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RE: DL LAS-NRT?

Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:39 am

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 2):

IIRC there are a few flights for an electronics convention (or something like that) being held in Vegas.

Consumer Electronic Show. It's not as big as it used to be, but still a major convention.

DL had a charter earlier this year related to CES:

DAL Charter To NRT From LAS Today? (by PHX787 Jan 12 2013 in Civil Aviation)
 
crownvic
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RE: DL LAS-NRT?

Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:59 am

Man, what a tease! I have been hounding Delta for this route for years. I still believe an A332 could operate this route profitably. Unfortunately, it just seems like the only thing they have on their mind anymore is SEA.
 
flyenvi
Topic Author
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:24 pm

RE: DL LAS-NRT?

Fri Dec 06, 2013 6:08 am

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 2):

IIRC there are a few flights for an electronics convention (or something like that) being held in Vegas.

Interesting. Would Delta put it on their route map though? Not saying your wrong, just curious.
 
Flighty
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RE: DL LAS-NRT?

Fri Dec 06, 2013 6:23 am

Their route map may be a very nifty automatic job based on schedules.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: DL LAS-NRT?

Fri Dec 06, 2013 6:25 am

What are the dates this is operating?
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MesaFlyGuy
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Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:36 pm

RE: DL LAS-NRT?

Fri Dec 06, 2013 6:56 am

Quoting flyenvi (Reply 6):

No worries I know what your saying!     I think these flights are sold as scheduled commercial flights, so they show up on the routemap.

But that's just my (probably wrong) guess  Smile

[Edited 2013-12-05 22:57:43]
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
SurfandSnow
Posts: 1657
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:09 am

RE: DL LAS-NRT?

Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:43 am

Quoting crownvic (Reply 5):
I have been hounding Delta for this route for years. I still believe an A332 could operate this route profitably.

Didn't the A332 take weight restrictions on SLC-NRT? LAS does have a longer runway available, but also hotter summer temps. I would think the only DL planes cut out for the mission would be the 777s (or 747s), which are all committed to much more lucrative routes.

Quoting flyenvi (Reply 6):
Interesting. Would Delta put it on their route map though?

Nope. NW already tried the route, and quickly settled on one stop services via LAX. NW added twice weekly nonstop 742 service - in both directions - in June 1998, only to see JL add competing services running at higher frequency (albeit via LAX en route to NRT). NW formally abandoned the route in 2000, with the last flights running in April 2001. JL went on to end all LAS service a few years later. If regularly scheduled nonstop service didn't work then (before the perils of 9/11 and subsequent security/immigration hassles, before the rise of Asian gambling meccas at Macau and Singapore, before the decline of the NRT intra-Asia hub and increased emphasis on a transpacific gateway at SEA, before the drastic rise in gas prices, etc.) it certainly won't work now.

LAS has been very successful with international services to Europe and Latin America. Asia has been a different story. In addition to the aforementioned Japan services, SQ briefly tried nonstops to HKG in the early 2000s, and PR recently ended all of its LAS services (MNL via YVR) after several years of operation. KE began LAS service in 2006, and at one point had to combine the service with LAX (ICN-LAS-LAX-ICN). KE once again offers nonstop service in both directions, but frequency is still less than daily. KE is now the only Asian carrier at LAS and the only airline offering any regularly scheduled nonstop services between Las Vegas and Asia.

All that said, DL has been doing some interesting stuff at LAS lately - new p2p domestic routes currently flown exclusively by all-Y LCC carriers. DL has been increasing p2p service to a number of popular domestic and transborder leisure markets (it all started with CUN a few years ago, then MCO, and now MBJ, NAS, PUJ, RSW, and TPA too), and if the new BOS/RDU-LAS flights do well, I suspect we could see stuff like BDL/CMH/IND/MKE/PIT-LAS added in due course, perhaps even stuff like BOI/OKC/OMA/SAT/SMF-LAS (on RJs) too. NK more or less filled the HP/US void to most major markets, but there are still quite a few medium-sized markets with less options than years past.
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
SkyTeamTriStar
Posts: 245
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:47 pm

RE: DL LAS-NRT?

Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:53 pm

Quoting crownvic (Reply 5):
Unfortunately, it just seems like the only thing they have on their mind anymore is SEA.

Please, do not find fault with that. Every company seeks out new growth areas.

[Edited 2013-12-06 08:57:40]
 
Sligo
Posts: 152
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:59 pm

RE: DL LAS-NRT?

Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:54 pm

LAS-CDG would be nice one day...
 
nicode
Posts: 292
Joined: Fri May 11, 2012 7:58 pm

RE: DL LAS-NRT?

Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:38 pm

Quoting Sligo (Reply 13):
LAS-CDG would be nice one day...

Actually, only a weekly flight during June-September on XL Airways France is possible.
 
silentbob
Posts: 1632
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:26 pm

RE: DL LAS-NRT?

Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:47 pm

Quoting flyenvi (Reply 6):
Interesting. Would Delta put it on their route map though? Not saying your wrong, just curious.

My guess is that the route map pulls from the flight database. If it is a scheduled flight, it will show up on the route map. Otherwise, coding each flight into the map would be a nightmare.
 
roseflyer
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Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am

RE: DL LAS-NRT?

Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:22 pm

Quoting surfandsnow (Reply 10):
Didn't the A332 take weight restrictions on SLC-NRT? LAS does have a longer runway available, but also hotter summer temps

LAS-NRT and SLC-NRT are the same length, but LAS is at 2,000ft elevation whereas SLC is at 4,000ft. DL is going to operate a A332 on SEA-HKG which is 1000 miles further than LAS-NRT.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
crownvic
Posts: 2846
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:16 pm

RE: DL LAS-NRT?

Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:36 am

Quoting surfandsnow (Reply 10):
Didn't the A332 take weight restrictions on SLC-NRT? LAS does have a longer runway available, but also hotter summer temps. I would think the only DL planes cut out for the mission would be the 777s (or 747s), which are all committed to much more lucrative routes.

Without crunching numbers, I would think the A332 could do LAS-NRT year round. Many European carriers have run widebody A330's nonstop to Europe from LAS and do not seem to have problems. The distances are comparable.

Quoting surfandsnow (Reply 10):
LAS has been very successful with international services to Europe and Latin America. Asia has been a different story. In addition to the aforementioned Japan services, SQ briefly tried nonstops to HKG in the early 2000s, and PR recently ended all of its LAS services (MNL via YVR) after several years of operation. KE began LAS service in 2006, and at one point had to combine the service with LAX (ICN-LAS-LAX-ICN). KE once again offers nonstop service in both directions, but frequency is still less than daily. KE is now the only Asian carrier at LAS and the only airline offering any regularly s

Sorry, but I disagree. How many Asian carriers have pulled in and out of SEA over the years, only to return with success? NWA was using a fuel guzzling 742 LAS-NRT, because there was no other a/c available for the mission. SQ pulled out with the SARS scare and HKG was more of a p2p destination. Not enough traffic to support it. The PR service overall, was just a bad deal. Again, more of a p2p service to MNL on a very slow and poorly maintained A343, that routed through YVR. Virtually zero premium traffic would have booked such a flight, not to mention a no-alliance frequent flyer program. NRT is a connecting hub for all of Asia. Far more opportunities with a more efficient A332. Part of the failure of Asian service at LAS, is poor marketing. The flights are frequently only "pushed" for Asia originating passengers, rather than marketing the 2 million residents of LAS. As I had mentioned in a separate thread, if one checks the demographics of the flyers on the massive amount of service between LAS and SFO/LAX, you will see that a large percentage of them are Asian tourists. The business is there and the market is ripe for DL to step in.
 
SurfandSnow
Posts: 1657
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:09 am

RE: DL LAS-NRT?

Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:22 am

Quoting crownvic (Reply 16):
I would think the A332 could do LAS-NRT year round. Many European carriers have run widebody A330's nonstop to Europe from LAS and do not seem to have problems. The distances are comparable.

From LAS, European flights benefit from tailwinds, while Asian-bound flights must contend with headwinds. Also, transatlantic flights usually leave for Europe in the evening (when heat will be much less of an issue at LAS), while transpacific flights to Asia operated by U.S. carriers will always depart in the late morning/early afternoon timeframe (unless there are slot restrictions on the Asian side, which has only been the case with HND and sometimes PEK) when the heat will be at its worst. I see KE schedules its LAS-ICN flights as redeyes, although this is common practice for them and other Asian carriers and may have nothing to do with the heat. Still, European redeye services on A330s are not something to go by for a potential DL-operated A330 service to NRT that would certainly depart LAS during the peak daytime temperature timeframe.

Quoting crownvic (Reply 16):
Sorry, but I disagree. How many Asian carriers have pulled in and out of SEA over the years, only to return with success?

SEA is a completely different market. First of all, it is much larger - in fact, roughly twice as populous as LAS. Second, SEA has lots of corporate travel, thanks to all of the SEA-based corporations that do extensive business in Asia, as well as Asian businesses that come to do business with them. Third, SEA has extensive socioeconomic ties with Asia, generating lots of VFR travel where Asians and Asian-Americans travel back and forth to see their families and friends. Fourth, it is geographically closer to Asia, making A330 and even 767 ops easy. Simply put, it is a much more logical connection point to/from Western U.S. markets than LAS, while the terminal facilities and airline ops are much more tailored to connecting traffic than O&D-focused LAS. I could go on, but I think you get the point.

LAS does have a notable number of Filipinos, hence the PR service, but does not host any other Asian communities of much significance. Vegas isn't a 100% leisure market, but most of the casino big wigs and high roller clients fly privately, leaving airlines with few opportunities to fill those front cabins that are critical to the success of long haul flights. You do have the conventions, but the traffic for those is highly variable. One week you've got the consumer electronics show, driving DL to add NRT-LAS (because the Japanese dominate consumer electronic manufacturing). The next week you might have an oil and gas convention, with zero demand from Japan, but AC upgauging YYC-LAS to a 77W and UA putting a 747 on IAH-LAS. The week after that might be a porn convention, where WN adds 3 extra daily BUR-LAS flights. Etc.

Quoting crownvic (Reply 16):
NWA was using a fuel guzzling 742 LAS-NRT, because there was no other a/c available for the mission.

Yes, but gas was A LOT cheaper then too.

Quoting crownvic (Reply 16):
SQ pulled out with the SARS scare and HKG was more of a p2p destination. Not enough traffic to support it.

A p2p destination?!? HKG is every bit as much an aviation hub as NRT, if not more so. Sure, it wasn't HKG's hub carrier CX, but surely SQ offered interline and codeshare connections at HKG, in addition to the through flights to SIN with extensive onward connectivity.

Quoting crownvic (Reply 16):
The PR service overall, was just a bad deal. Again, more of a p2p service to MNL on a very slow and poorly maintained A343, that routed through YVR. Virtually zero premium traffic would have booked such a flight, not to mention a no-alliance frequent flyer program.

This service was geared towards Filipino and Filipino-American VFR travelers, given the relatively large Filipino community in Las Vegas. They also had fifth freedom rights YVR-LAS. They don't get the premium/high-yielding traffic, but they also have much lower costs than the airlines that do. The main issue was the continuing lack of FAA Category 1 status for all Filipino carriers, preventing them from changing the aircraft to the 77W. They wanted to offer a consistent product for YVR-MNL travelers, and to serve YYZ. Maybe if the Philippines gets Category 1 status PR will resume LAS.

Quoting crownvic (Reply 16):
NRT is a connecting hub for all of Asia. Far more opportunities with a more efficient A332.

ICN offers far more connection opportunities, particularly with respect to the key markets of China and Japan. With the exception of SPN, there is absolutely nothing that a DL service would bring to the table that KE's existing LAS service does not. In recent years DL has been steadily reducing unprofitable intra-Asia NRT flying, they now only serve a handful of major Asian cities from NRT. Even someone headed to Seoul or Kuala Lumpur would have to switch to a different carrier - not a huge deal, but its always easier and safer to stick with one airline for the whole journey if possible.

If anyone was to offer NRT-LAS I'd expect it to be one of the Japanese airlines, but their long haul intercontinental aircraft are simply too low-density/premium-heavy for a market like LAS, and even their connectivity beyond NRT pales in comparison to that of KE at ICN.

Quoting crownvic (Reply 16):
Part of the failure of Asian service at LAS, is poor marketing. The flights are frequently only "pushed" for Asia originating passengers, rather than marketing the 2 million residents of LAS.

Las Vegas was hit extremely hard by the recession, a double whammy of lower tourism revenues and a local real estate market that collapsed. Things have improved, but visitors don't spend like they used to, local unemployment remains high and real estate prices are still far below their peak (leaving most local homeowners with underwater mortgages or otherwise taking massive losses when selling). Even if the situation was different, many Las Vegas residents are retirees or young adults living paycheck to paycheck - not the kind of folks who can afford to take trips to Tokyo, one of the most expensive cities in the world. LAS is slowly, steadily getting better, but its demographics are still very poor compared to diverse, thriving tech-based economies like, oh I don't know, SEA. Seattle is doing well economically these days, and I think some don't realize that there is very good reason why DL is expanding there.

Quoting crownvic (Reply 16):
if one checks the demographics of the flyers on the massive amount of service between LAS and SFO/LAX, you will see that a large percentage of them are Asian tourists. The business is there and the market is ripe for DL to step in.

The business is there, absolutely. Sufficient yields for nonstop service between LAS and Asia - particularly in premium cabins, the most important drivers of revenue on long haul intercontinental flights - are not. Also, the massive amount of service between LAS and SFO/LAX is there first and foremost because of O&D. Don't forget about all the service between LAS and alternate Bay Area/L.A. airports - OAK, SJC, BUR, LGB, ONT, and SNA. Californians love taking their Vegas trips, that's for sure. Of course, SFO and LAX hubs provide extensive connectivity. You are just as likely to see someone connecting to LAS from HNL or SYD as NRT or PVG. Many domestic travelers even overly LAS and connect at a Californian hub to get there. Asian tourists are a notable component, especially on flights that are timed to connect with Asian services, but are certainly not "a large percentage" of all SFO/LAX-LAS travelers. Many Asian tourists arrive in and out of a major gateway (i.e. LAX) and then board a bus that takes them to Vegas, the Grand Canyon, and throughout California.
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
bjorn14
Posts: 3595
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RE: DL LAS-NRT?

Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:57 am

Why can only XL Airways France fly LAS-CDG?
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