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at777
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CLT To Bid For Boeing 777x

Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:42 pm

I apologize in advance for no direct link as I'm on my iPhone.
Saw it on www.WCNC.com that Charlotte is putting together a bid
For the 777x program. Other cities include GSO and CHS.
What is the possibility of this in CLT? It would be awesome to have.
I know they are finishing up the rail yard here in CLT that I would think to be crucial.
Really don't have to worry about hurricanes.

Thoughts?
 
srbmod
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RE: CLT To Bid For Boeing 777x

Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:55 pm

Georgia is as well:

Georgia to pitch Boeing to land 777X airliner

No site has been mentioned, but I'm guessing the site in Pooler, adjacent to SAV will be promoted by the state, just like when Boeing was sending their dog and pony show to states trying to land the 787 plant.

More than likely, the 77X will be built at their plant in Charleston, as there is room to grow there and this is just another ploy on the part of Boeing like the 787 plant was.
 
FutureFO
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RE: CLT To Bid For Boeing 777x

Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:13 pm

Here in GSO we have plenty of growth room. After all we have TIMCO, HONDAJET, AND a soon to be realized FedEx international hub. Plus we have the longest runway in the state.
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mhkansan
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RE: CLT To Bid For Boeing 777x

Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:24 pm

I wish they would build it in Wichita!
 
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Revelation
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RE: CLT To Bid For Boeing 777x

Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:37 pm

Quoting srbmod (Reply 1):
More than likely, the 77X will be built at their plant in Charleston, as there is room to grow there and this is just another ploy on the part of Boeing like the 787 plant was.

The informal word is that Boeing is not happy with the quality of work or the rate of work from CHS.

Seems management may be learning that 'build it and they shall come' doesn't work that well in aerospace.
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Stitch
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RE: CLT To Bid For Boeing 777x

Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:42 pm

Quoting srbmod (Reply 1):
More than likely, the 77X will be built at their plant in Charleston, as there is room to grow there and this is just another ploy on the part of Boeing like the 787 plant was.

If Boeing plans to assemble the 777X at PAE, I think Salt Lake City has the best shot since they already build the 787-9 vertical stabilizer and they really know composites.

If Boeing plans to assemble the 777X at a site other than PAE, then I agree with you that CHS probably has the inside track as they have the room to build a FAL and they have the port facilities to take the fuselage (and, perhaps wing) shipments from Japan.

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 3):
I wish they would build it in Wichita!

If Boeing is making a decision to eventually close Everett, I could see 767 production moving to Wichita since the bulk of airframes will be KC-767s and Wichita was supposed to do the outfitting of the green airframes into tankers before Boeing decided to do that work on the Everett FAL (which honked off Kansas' Congressional delegation).



Quoting Revelation (Reply 4):
The informal word is that Boeing is not happy with the quality of work or the rate of work from CHS.

Well they have another half-decade or so to get them up to speed.

[Edited 2013-12-07 12:09:13]
 
CV880
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RE: CLT To Bid For Boeing 777x

Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:47 pm

Quoting FutureFO (Reply 2):
Plus we have the longest runway in the state.

No You don't....ISO(Kinston) does at 11,500ft & CLT is in prelim stages of construction of a 4th parallel strip at 12,000'.

None of the NC bids will get it....too much squabbling as usual between the factions that will bid on it....(ISO, GSO & CLT).
 
FutureFO
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RE: CLT To Bid For Boeing 777x

Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:13 am

Why would ISO need that long of a runway?
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mariner
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RE: CLT To Bid For Boeing 777x

Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:30 am

Quoting srbmod (Reply 1):
Georgia is as well:

Missouri and Alabama, too:

http://www.al.com/business/index.ssf...issouri_lawmakers_approve_17b.html

"Missouri lawmakers approve $1.7B incentive package for Boeing - Alabama's offer due Tuesday

JEFFERSON CITY, Missouri -- Missouri lawmakers approved a plan Friday offering Boeing $1.7 billion in incentives to build its next-generation 777X jet in the St. Louis area.

Huntsville's pitch to Boeing includes a highly skilled workforce capable of performing all the necessary engineering, production and systems integration in a single location, low cost of living, affordable tax structure and reputation for aerospace innovation."


Then there's the dance with Airbus because of the new Airbus plant at Mobile - LOL:

http://www.tuscaloosanews.com/articl...Bentley-dealing-with-Boeing-Airbus

"Alabama Gov. Robert Bentley dealing with Boeing, Airbus

MONTGOMERY (AP) — Gov. Robert Bentley says he's assuring Airbus that it is still Alabama's priority even though he's courting their competitor, Boeing."


mariner
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avi8tir
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RE: CLT To Bid For Boeing 777x

Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:26 pm

wasnt LGB in the mix too?
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Stitch
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RE: CLT To Bid For Boeing 777x

Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:56 pm

Quoting avi8tir (Reply 9):
wasnt LGB in the mix too?

Yes, the C-17 site has been mentioned as a possible location. It's large enough and has a skilled workforce in place, however I don't see any infrastructure (rail / road) to move large 777X components from the Port of Long Beach / Port of Los Angeles to the plant. That being said, not sure how C-17 sub-assemblies are delivered and how they relate in size and shape to the 777X, so it may not be an issue.

[Edited 2013-12-08 09:58:13]
 
srbmod
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RE: CLT To Bid For Boeing 777x

Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:20 pm

Quoting avi8tir (Reply 9):

wasnt LGB in the mix too?

LGB tried to get 737 MAX production line, but that never went anywhere (Some of the regulations and policies in California played a role in that being a non-starter, plus much of the former commercial plant building had already been torn down i the last 6-8 years.) and the remaining buildings from the West Plant complex (as well as land parcels where buildings once were) has been sold off to a developer.

Boeing is squarely aiming this towards their unionized workforce in Washington, as they're why they ended up buying the Vaught plant at CHS (which was producing some of the fuselage segments for the 787) and turning it into a second production line as South Carolina is a right to work state (Unlike Washington and California.). North Carolina, Alabama and Georgia are also right to work states (Missouri is not.).
 
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Moose135
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RE: CLT To Bid For Boeing 777x

Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:16 pm

Quoting FutureFO (Reply 7):
Why would ISO need that long of a runway?

It started life as a military training field in the 1940s and 1950s.
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flightsimer
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RE: CLT To Bid For Boeing 777x

Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:58 pm

Pa was invited as well to make a bid, which will be announced by Tuesday. Pittsburgh is most likely city/airport.
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bhxdtw
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RE: CLT To Bid For Boeing 777x

Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:33 pm

Just out of curiosity,

Who bids for this ? The airport, the state, the county ? or is it dependent on where parts manufacturers are located ?

I live in Michigan and I often wonder why the state doesn't try and attract things like this... this would be great for the economy I'm sure..

I guess the incentives are better and cost of employment may be cheaper in these other locations ?
 
Lexy
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RE: CLT To Bid For Boeing 777x

Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:59 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 8):
Missouri and Alabama, too:

http://www.al.com/business/index.ssf...issouri_lawmakers_approve_17b.html

"Missouri lawmakers approve $1.7B incentive package for Boeing - Alabama's offer due Tuesday

JEFFERSON CITY, Missouri -- Missouri lawmakers approved a plan Friday offering Boeing $1.7 billion in incentives to build its next-generation 777X jet in the St. Louis area.

Huntsville's pitch to Boeing includes a highly skilled workforce capable of performing all the necessary engineering, production and systems integration in a single location, low cost of living, affordable tax structure and reputation for aerospace innovation."

Then there's the dance with Airbus because of the new Airbus plant at Mobile - LOL:

http://www.tuscaloosanews.com/articl...Bentley-dealing-with-Boeing-Airbus

"Alabama Gov. Robert Bentley dealing with Boeing, Airbus

MONTGOMERY (AP) — Gov. Robert Bentley says he's assuring Airbus that it is still Alabama's priority even though he's courting their competitor, Boeing."

Out of all of the places up for bid, I think HSV is the best for a number of reasons.
Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
 
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Stitch
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RE: CLT To Bid For Boeing 777x

Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:00 pm

Quoting BHXDTW (Reply 14):
Who bids for this?

Realistically, it would probably be at the State level as that is where the majority of the various taxation rates are set. Counties and municipalities could adjust their own rates, as well, to sweeten the pot.

Using Sales Taxes as an example, the Washington State sales tax rate is 6.5%. Snohomish County adds their own 1.7% rate and the City of Everett an additional 0.6% for a total Sales Tax rate of 9.2%. So two-thirds of the total sales tax rate is set at the State level.

[Edited 2013-12-09 12:15:00]
 
srbmod
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RE: CLT To Bid For Boeing 777x

Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:02 pm

Quoting BHXDTW (Reply 14):
Who bids for this ? The airport, the state, the county ? or is it dependent on where parts manufacturers are located ?

It really depends, here in Georgia, efforts to attract manufacturing plants have typically been done at the state level with some help from local politicians and organizations, as the usual package of tax breaks and incentives comes for the state level (with a few on the local level). In some cases, these tax breaks and incentives have to be approved by the state legislature. Part of the reason why Georgia failed to land a number of auto plants that went to neighboring states is due to not being able to give those companies as good of a tax break and incentive package as they got. Those sort of things will definitely factor into where Boeing ultimately decides to build the 777X and that also includes the costs to build said plant.
 
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RE: CLT To Bid For Boeing 777x

Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:37 pm

I presume most states have a "Department of Economic Development" that takes the lead in coordinating opportunities of this size.
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dtw9
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RE: CLT To Bid For Boeing 777x

Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:44 pm

Quoting BHXDTW (Reply 14):
I live in Michigan and I often wonder why the state doesn't try and attract things like this... this would be great for the economy I'm sure..

Who said they weren't. MEDC is the arm that bids on this type of thing in Michigan. The question was recently asked of them if they were going to bid on the 777x and the reply was..."No comment". So if they did bid what does Michigan have to offer. Lets start with Willow Run, an airport greatly under used plus all the land that would be needed to build the entire 777x.(Wayne County bought it for one dollar from the U of M)The former GM Willow run plant is about to be torn down (3.5 million square ft) Boeing says they need 4 million square ft for final assembly so no problem there. Boeing needs easy access to interstate highways, again no problem with I-94 and I-275 right there. Boeing wants a dedicated rail line, again no problem, it's already there with a line into the plant. Michigan has a highly skilled workforce plus tons and tons of engineering. Michigan is now a Right to Work State. The one main factor against Michigan and most of the other States proposals is the lack of a deep sea port. So to sum it up, I think Michigan has a strong case for Boeing to at least look in this direction.
 
flyinggoat
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RE: CLT To Bid For Boeing 777x

Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:15 pm

Having the plant in CLT would be awesome, but with the 4th runway going in, is there space for a plant there? The roads are pretty close on all sides.

Can the 777x wings be transported by rail? Charlotte doesn't have any major rivers going through the area. If the wings can be transported by rail, then I would think RDU would make a better option. It seems like there is more land for expansion, plus RDU is considerably closer to the ports. Raleigh is a much better area to live in, IMHO.

Of all the cities in NC, I think Wilmington would be the best choice for a plant. Wilmington has a large port, and the airport is only about a mile from the Cape Fear River.

All that being said, does Boeing want a plant at a major airport? Seems like it would be a pain to perform aircraft testing at busy airports like CLT (although the 4th runway would help).
 
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par13del
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RE: CLT To Bid For Boeing 777x

Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:26 pm

How about Detroit, what kind of deal could they offer?
City is in Chpt.11, hundreds of empty buildings for administration, close to the lake as well as rail, massive un-employment so the rates should be good, its a union state but everyone can clearly see where that got them so.........If their administrator can get his act together they can throw in a bid.

My feeling is that Boeing really does not care where the a/c is built other than the North West, as anywhere else will be offering up incentives to make the investment financially worthwhile.
 
PITrules
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RE: CLT To Bid For Boeing 777x

Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:12 pm

Is Boeing overstating its need to be near a port? Both Everett and Charleston have a seaport, but that did not stop Boeing from highly modifying a group of 747s and flying major 787 sub assemblies to those locations.
FLYi
 
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Stitch
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RE: CLT To Bid For Boeing 777x

Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:45 pm

Quoting PITrules (Reply 22):
Is Boeing overstating its need to be near a port? Both Everett and Charleston have a seaport, but that did not stop Boeing from highly modifying a group of 747s and flying major 787 sub assemblies to those locations.

777 sub-assemblies from Japan are delivered to the Port of Everett by sea and then sent by rail up to the plant. Therefore, a 777X FAL will need to be connected to seaport via heavy rail.
 
mpdpilot
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RE: CLT To Bid For Boeing 777x

Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:58 pm

Quoting PITrules (Reply 22):
Is Boeing overstating its need to be near a port? Both Everett and Charleston have a seaport, but that did not stop Boeing from highly modifying a group of 747s and flying major 787 sub assemblies to those locations.
Quoting Stitch (Reply 23):

as Stitch mentioned that is how the current 777 is being delivered, and I would also add that the components of the 777X are not the same size as the 787, nor will they be built at the same rate. Sea is the way to go if you can, its quite a bit cheaper.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
PITrules
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RE: CLT To Bid For Boeing 777x

Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:56 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 23):
Quoting mpdpilot (Reply 24):

That makes sense.


However,...

Quoting mpdpilot (Reply 24):
Sea is the way to go if you can, its quite a bit cheaper.

Why didn't Boeing stick with that formula for the 787?

Regardless, keep in mind one of the first states (if not the first state) Boeing called on was Utah.
FLYi
 
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Stitch
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RE: CLT To Bid For Boeing 777x

Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:27 pm

Quoting PITrules (Reply 25):
Why didn't Boeing stick with that formula for the 787?

Multiple reasons, I imagine.

Since the 787 barrels were pre-fabricated, having the interior outfitting done at the production site would have saved assembly time on the FAL. It also meant you needed significantly less machinists on the FAL, reducing labor costs and conceivably making it possible to continue production during a strike. Boeing also wanted to move to be more of a final-stage integrator rather than a full-service fabricator and the new "snap together" FAL process (along with the earlier 777 HAL proposal) supported that goal.

I also expect the memories of the 777 doubling her projected development budget were still haunting the place and shifting a significant portion of the R&D and capital budgets to the subs reduced Boeing's perceived risk at the time of program launch.
 
CV880
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RE: CLT To Bid For Boeing 777x

Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:19 pm

Quoting flyinggoat (Reply 20):
Having the plant in CLT would be awesome, but with the 4th runway going in, is there space for a plant there? The roads are pretty close on all sides.
http://charmeck.org/city/charlotte/A...ishingImages/IntermodalYardCLT.jpg

The above link depicts the CLT intermodal rail yard now under construction. There is seaport to airport capability from SAV, CHS & ORF. The 12,000' runway will be adjacent to the east of the rail yard. The acreage west of I-485 on the left of the photo is mostly undeveloped. The airport as it is now encompasses around 6000 acres.
 
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bikerthai
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RE: CLT To Bid For Boeing 777x

Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:06 pm

Quoting PITrules (Reply 25):

Why didn't Boeing stick with that formula for the 787?

One reason is as the fuselage section gets more "complete", the value of the fuselage goes up and having those stock sitting at sea for a couple of weeks equates to inventory cost.

The other problem of inventory is having all those frames sitting at sea would mean there would be more frames to modify as design changes comes up (as it did with the 787).

Once the design is stabilized, it may be possible to have the inventory at see without impacting production flow impact from changes.

Question: If the inventory is at sea who has liability for the product and who would eat the inventory cost? The supplier or Boeing?

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
RDUDDJI
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RE: CLT To Bid For Boeing 777x

Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:36 am

Quoting Lexy (Reply 15):

Out of all of the places up for bid, I think HSV is the best for a number of reasons.

+1. From what I understand, HSV is the early (and only) front runner.
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ADent
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RE: CLT To Bid For Boeing 777x

Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:24 am

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 29):
+1. From what I understand, HSV is the early (and only) front runner.

Well Mobile might be a good spot, but Airbus is already there.

Boeing has land at the HSV airport. They built a huge plant in Decatur (it is now part of a subsidiary) to build rockets.

HSV is not too far from the Tennessee River - NASA built the Saturn V first stage in HSV, so large structures can get there.

HSV airport is served by railroad - there is an intermodal terminal there.

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