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N328KF
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Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:10 pm

I'm surprised that nobody is posting on the OZ214 hearing. Some tidbits:

Quote:
The first officer aboard Asiana Flight 214 told investigators that he called out the plane's excessive sink rate -- its rate of descent -- "more than four times" in the two minutes before the plane crashed.
Quote:
Culture also kept the pilot flying from wearing sunglasses, the interviews suggest. That was a factor momentarily when the student captain saw a flash of light as the plane descended through 500 feet.

"Asked whether he wore sunglasses in the cockpit he said no, because it would have been considered impolite for him to wear them when he was flying with his PM. He said it was very important in their culture," the NTSB report says.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/11/us/nts...aring-asiana-flight-214/index.html
http://www.esquire.com/blogs/news/asiana-crash-oral-history

Quote:
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304744304579246570888527440?KEYWORDS=asiana
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N328KF
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:28 pm

More details, from the thread on automation:

Quote:
"Two former Asiana pilots said in interviews that most of the carriers’s crews were uncomfortable with manual flight maneuvers, according to NTSB documents."
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-1...understand-to-idle.html?cmpid=yhoo
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aaexecplat
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:04 pm

Wow. They are scared of manual approaches, don't understand the airplanes' systems, fail to monitor the speed, fail to communicate, and don't know how to do even the most rudimentary flying such as advancing throttles.

I suspected that nothing positive could come of the investigation for OZ, but this is worse than I thought it would be. Definitely an airline I would avoid at all cost until they get their pilots to be more skilled.
 
802flyguy
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:16 pm

From the NYT article:

...the captain, Lee Kang Kuk, who was flying the plane, told investigators that any of the three pilots could have decided to break off the approach, but for “the low-level people,” including himself because he was being supervised by an instructor pilot, “it’s very hard,” he said.

He also said that as the plane approached he was momentarily blinded by a bright light on the runway, possibly a reflection of the sun, but that he would not wear sunglasses because among Koreans that would be impolite."



It is rather sad to see that deferring to seniors and cultural attitude still trumps CRM and common sense at a major carrier like Asiana.
 
wingman
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:22 pm

In all of this detailed analysis though i does come through that something is going on with this idle function on 777s and 787s, something that Boeing has had to call out in their manuals. I was pretty quick myself to lay blame with the crew but even seasoned 777/787 test pilots from Boeing are mentioning this little "gremlin".

I've also discussed this accident with a lifelong friend who pilots for a European major and has flown into SFO at least 50 times. In his words "no airport the caliber of SFO should have all of its automated landing aids a the same time, it's just stupid". I have the ultimate respect for this guy so I do wonder if there aren't significant contributing factors to this accident. No question the PIC should have had at least one eyeball on the speed but to me this all just looks like a classic set-up for failure.
 
bcoz
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:40 pm

I simply cannot fathom that you can have a pilot flying a 777 full of passengers who is "uncomfortable" flying a visual approach in relatively great weather conditions. I mean it almost doesn't even compute to me....
 
JHwk
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:43 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 4):
In his words "no airport the caliber of SFO should have all of its automated landing aids a the same time, it's just stupid".

Were both 28L and 28R localizer and glideslope down at the time? 1R/1L did have automated landing equipment active, although the runway was in use for departures at the time.
 
wingman
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:50 pm

That's what I understand. But I'm going on memory here so open to correction. If true though you have to admit it's a factor. The guy was new to the plane, landing in SFO for the first time in 9 years and having to do it 100% manual. It doesn't absolve him at all and I have to say that his own admissions of being "uncomfortable" are simply mind-boggling. Sounds like he's getting advice from a matchbox attorney.

Boeing will take a hit and so will SFO, but this guy is going to take the fall in my opinion.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:15 pm

Quoting JHwk (Reply 6):
Were both 28L and 28R localizer and glideslope down at the time? 1R/1L did have automated landing equipment active, although the runway was in use for departures at the time.

Yes, both had been down for a while.

They were being moved as the runway was being reconfigured. They were both down at the time because the configuration and separation don't make one up and the other down safe.

Yes, the 1/19 runways were available for instrument approaches if the crew had asked for them.

Let's not forget that hundreds of aircraft safely landed on this runway that day in the same, or worse, visual conditions.
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hivue
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:17 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 4):
In his words "no airport the caliber of SFO should have all of its automated landing aids a the same time, it's just stupid". I have the ultimate respect for this guy so I do wonder if there aren't significant contributing factors to this accident. No question the PIC should have had at least one eyeball on the speed but to me this all just looks like a classic set-up for failure.

My guess is your friend said this because the airport has to be ready to handle emergencies where the ILS could be a real life saver, not to cater to pilots who can't do visual approaches in good weather.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:18 pm

Well, obviously Asiana planes don't crash every other day, despite it seems crappy pilots, so that's not a great argument.
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azjubilee
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:29 pm

Even with both ILS's out of service there are still other ways to create vertical guidance. Part of being a professional pilot is using all available resources and to know what those options are. They could have loaded a non precision approach or simply loaded the visual approach to the runway. There are so many ways to create vertical guidance for yourself. In the end, they should have been able to safely bring that plane to the runway. There may be something going on regarding the "hold" mode, but in the end, the pilots are ALWAYS responsible for the automation. One of the golden rules in aviation is that if you don't like what the automation is doing, disconnect it, be an aviator and fly the plane.

Pilots in the US are always flying visual approaches and backing them up with available vertical guidance. Wether its in a cessna 172, CRJ or 747, the concepts are the same and not out of the ordinary. However, there is a time and a place for a visual approach and hand-flying. On a poor weather day, obviously you can't do a visual approach and using the automation to its potential is highly recommended to reduce workload. The day is question, was the perfect day to hand-fly and do a visual approach.

[Edited 2013-12-11 11:20:41]
 
hivue
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:29 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 7):
and having to do it 100% manual.

Actually, he was depending on the A/Th. I'm not nitpicking here. If he had in fact been flying 100% manual things probably would have turned out a lot better. A successful GA perhaps but not a crash.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
UALWN
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:47 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 8):
Let's not forget that hundreds of aircraft safely landed on this runway that day in the same, or worse, visual conditions.

So did hundreds of Asiana flights everywhere else in the world, that day and many other days, often in worse conditions...
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/350/380
 
hivue
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:05 pm

Detailed explanation from the NTSB hearing in this video:
http://www.bloomberg.com/video/asian...e-ntsb-F1t2JkimQzq~DOGWF~7EIA.html
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KC135Hydraulics
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:07 pm

Can someone explain to me the "gremlin" or known issue with the 777's autothrottle system that everyone seems to be mentioning?
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hoons90
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:13 pm

It's sad to see Asiana plagued by the same issues Korean Air had a few decades ago. After a string of crashes, Korean Air took the opportunity to revamp their cockpit culture, let's hope Asiana does the same.
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wingman
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:13 pm

Quoting hivue (Reply 9):
My guess is your friend said this because the airport has to be ready to handle emergencies where the ILS could be a real life saver, not to cater to pilots who can't do visual approaches in good weather.

Again, he didn't say this as a way of absolving the Asiana crew, it was more his reaction to my opening comments that the crew were to blame. I'll also add that he was flying MD-11s at the time and while he said he loved the real piloting this aircraft involved in landing, they could be stressful. In this context I'm guessing he liked every bit of help he could get and expected the help in world-class airports.

Bottom line from my point of view, the PIC should have landed the plane safely and did not, basic failure in essential skills and many contributing factors. And yet...would this have happened with the landing aids in operation? Anyway, this guy certainly isn't doing himself any favors with his comments.
 
hivue
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:16 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 17):
and while he said he loved the real piloting this aircraft involved in landing, they could be stressful. In this context I'm guessing he liked every bit of help he could get and expected the help in world-class airports.

Point taken. Very interesting.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:44 pm

The usual too many cooks on the kitchen syndrome, strikes again.

I find it amazing how culture and rank will make people do stupid things to save face... then again I am not Korean so i don't know how hard is to break "tradition".

Too bad this lesson cost lives.

TRB
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barney captain
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:48 pm

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 11):
Even with both ILS's out of service there are still other ways to create vertical guidance. Part of being a professional pilot is using all available resources and to know what those options are.

Exactly. Simply load the desired ILS Approach in to the FMS, and you will have the same LOC/GS information presented to you via the LNAV/NAV - even with the ILS out of service.

Or you could just look out the window.
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Mir
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:08 am

Quoting hivue (Reply 14):
Detailed explanation from the NTSB hearing in this video:

That makes it seem like the crew did not have a thorough understanding of what certain automation modes do and how they should be used. You cannot use FLCH to descend when your selected altitude is above you (and you shouldn't be using it on approach anyway). And once you've manually overridden the throttles you must assume that they are not controlling your speed unless a change in mode is commanded and verified. In this case one was not; on the contrary, the PF disconnected an autopilot that was not doing what he wanted and then turned off a flight director that was giving him incorrect guidance, both of which are appropriate actions but which will not get the autothrottle to start doing anything useful again.

I don't fly with autothrottles currently, but I wonder if those that do have any policies established by their carriers about use of autothrottles on approach when not using the autopilot or flight director.

-Mir
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SuseJ772
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:53 am

Not all the visual guidance instruments were out. Only the ILS. It says the PAPI was operating at that time. As a 172 pilot (who doesn't use ILS very often), the PAPI is the first thing I look for when turning final. As ultimately, any issues can be resolved except for being too low and too slow for too long. Not sure why they didn't reference the PAPI.
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modesto2
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:20 am

Automation aside, another fundamental problem in this incident is the lack of scan and situational awareness. I could never imagine allowing my airspeed to decay as low as 103 knots. Why didn't they notice it at 130, 120, or 110 knots? On any approach I've flown, I'm constantly scanning airspeed and vertical profile. The utter lack of attention to the airspeed indicator just boggles my mind.
 
wjcandee
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:21 am

If the freakin' guy had had his hand on the throttle like he was supposed to, he would have known what the a/t system was doing in the 777, because of the feedback on the levers. Shows how totally freaking dependent upon and trusting in automation these guys are.

As to the cultural norms making people put that and pride before passenger safety...never flying a South Korean carrier. Sorry.
 
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ssteve
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:33 am

New (?) video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNfDUTGOEj0

Seems to be from a different angle.
 
CWAFlyer
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:33 am

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 22):
Not all the visual guidance instruments were out. Only the ILS. It says the PAPI was operating at that time. As a 172 pilot (who doesn't use ILS very often), the PAPI is the first thing I look for when turning final. As ultimately, any issues can be resolved except for being too low and too slow for too long. Not sure why they didn't reference the PAPI.

A better question is whether these pilots know what a PAPI is or what the lights mean. Did they read the NOTAMS or even know what they meant? My guess is that they fly a full coupled ILS down to minimums if not all the way to the ground no matter where they fly. Simply program it into the FMS and let the airplane do its thing. Having the ILS shut off, fail, or some component of the airplane's nav system fail is probably something they do not train for or have the slightest idea what to do. The fact that this pilot with thousands of hours was uneasy doing a visual approach speaks volumes. US airlines and dozens of other foreign carriers fly to major airports all over the US and do visual approaches nearly every day. This should have been a non-event.
 
greaser
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:43 am

Quoting wingman (Reply 4):
In all of this detailed analysis though i does come through that something is going on with this idle function on 777s and 787s, something that Boeing has had to call out in their manuals. I was pretty quick myself to lay blame with the crew but even seasoned 777/787 test pilots from Boeing are mentioning this little "gremlin".

I've also discussed this accident with a lifelong friend who pilots for a European major and has flown into SFO at least 50 times. In his words "no airport the caliber of SFO should have all of its automated landing aids a the same time, it's just stupid". I have the ultimate respect for this guy so I do wonder if there aren't significant contributing factors to this accident. No question the PIC should have had at least one eyeball on the speed but to me this all just looks like a classic set-up for failure.

Attributing even 1% of the crash fault to the airplane in this case is equivalent to blaming the cessna 172 when a pilot pulls the mixture instead of the throttle when preparing to land...the throttle mechanism of the 777 and 787 works perfectly fine if you are competent in the 777/787. If you do not know how the autothrottle system works in an airplane you are type rated for you should not fly the airplane.
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rfields5421
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:43 am

Quoting CWAFlyer (Reply 26):
A better question is whether these pilots know what a PAPI is or what the lights mean. Did they read the NOTAMS or even know what they meant?

Yes. The pilots commented on the PAPI indicating the aircraft was low.

Yes, they knew the ILS was OOS. They did not expect to fly an ILS approach/ landing.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
Mir
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:47 am

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 22):
Not all the visual guidance instruments were out. Only the ILS.

The ILS wasn't completely out - the localizer was functional, and was captured by the autopilot.

Quoting CWAFlyer (Reply 26):
A better question is whether these pilots know what a PAPI is or what the lights mean.

Yes, they did.

-Mir
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c680
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:34 am

This is a VERY simple story:

They failed to use the most basic of airman skills and crashed the plane. And people died.

I can understand how some other professional pilots keep looking for a reason deeper than simple incompetence. It is simply beyond comprehension, and as such the human thing to do is to look for another reason. But there is another word for it: Denial. Guess what? It happened.

Now we're all going to endure lots more basic airwork in the sim, until the next tragedy makes us all focus on the root cause of the accident of the moment. But I have to admit, after AF447, and now this, maybe it is time to get back to a little more stick and rudder, and a little less programming the FMS.
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hoons90
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:05 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 31):
Koreans are simply some of the worlds worst Pilots.

Would you fly on a Delta or United plane that was piloted by a Korean?
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Okie
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:09 am

Quoting C680 (Reply 30):
I can understand how some other professional pilots keep looking for a reason deeper than simple incompetence. It is simply beyond comprehension, and as such the human thing to do is to look for another reason. But there is another word for it: Denial. Guess what? It happened

You just have to remember that this is a public hearing and any party involved gets to add their perspective to the official documented investigation whether casual, contributory or otherwise. If the pilots were represented by a union then they would be there as well.

So far we have a pretty safe system that investigates the causes and not the blame.

Quoting C680 (Reply 30):
But I have to admit, after AF447, and now this, maybe it is time to get back to a little more stick and rudder, and a little less programming the FMS

Whether stick and rudder, understanding the flight management systems better or just better monitoring as to not get behind the aircraft.

In this instance by the time the PF responded for a GA it was way too late to safely resolve the issue.
 
liftsifter
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:25 am

Quoting AAExecPlat (Reply 2):
I suspected that nothing positive could come of the investigation for OZ, but this is worse than I thought it would be. Definitely an airline I would avoid at all cost until they get their pilots to be more skilled.

Such an ignorant statement. Any other airline around the world could be just as bad or even worse with training/cultural techniques. Just because EK or AA or UA have certain policies, and OZ had an incident where their crew fell short, that doesn't mean every airline that hasn't had a crew related incident is perfect.

When you fly, you trust the airline with your life but really, you don't know if you get the drunk pilot or the smart pilot that day. You hope you get the latter, but if you get the former you hope for the best.

To say that you will avoid OZ until their pilots are more skilled is an anomaly in and of itself.

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hoons90
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:32 am

Quoting liftsifter (Reply 36):
. Just because EK or AA or UA have certain policies, and OZ had an incident where their crew fell short, that doesn't mean every airline that hasn't had a crew related incident is perfect.

You have a point there. Didn't EK almost crash not one, but two A340s because of pilot error?
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Mir
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:35 am

Quoting C680 (Reply 30):
I can understand how some other professional pilots keep looking for a reason deeper than simple incompetence. It is simply beyond comprehension, and as such the human thing to do is to look for another reason. But there is another word for it: Denial. Guess what? It happened.


The problem with simply chalking this up to incompetence is that it assumes that the pilots in question were being intentionally incompetent, and that if they could just be persuaded to not be incompetent, things would go better. That's quite a presumptive position to take. Far more likely is that the things they did wrong (and they did do things wrong) were done not out of wanton neglect, but because they believed they would result in the safe outcome of the flight. The solution to that is to train better, check better and screen better. And it is through these sorts of investigations that we find specific areas in which to do that.

Quoting C680 (Reply 30):
Now we're all going to endure lots more basic airwork in the sim

I doubt it. Airwork wasn't the issue here. You may have to handfly a visual approach, but there's no reason not to be doing that during training anyway.

Quoting C680 (Reply 30):
But I have to admit, after AF447, and now this, maybe it is time to get back to a little more stick and rudder, and a little less programming the FMS.

More stick and rudder, yes, but it's pretty clear that more time programming the FMS (or at least talking about how the system works and how it should and should not be used) is necessary as well, since their handling of the flight guidance had significant flaws as well.

-Mir
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Passedv1
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:37 am

Seems to me that there can no longer be a question that pilot competency is one of the main factors in this accident. Anybody allowed to be at the controls of an airliner should be able to land a perfectly good airplane when positioned on a 12 mile left base in clear skies with calm winds with no electronic, FMC generated, or visual vertical guidance available without breaking a sweat. The fact that the only thing not available to the Asiana crew was the ILS G/S makes this accident inexcusable for Asiana and the pilots.

I am dreading the knee jerk reactions from the FAA on this one. Hopefully the worse that happens is we get to do a lot more hand-flying in CQ2015.
 
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flylku
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:56 am

I am not aware of any research on this topic but I suspect that pilots from countries with strong general aviation are the safest. It makes me nervous to think that there are pilots up front in airliners who could not land my airplane (a Piper Warrior) but I know that in this country many of the old timers would say "knock off that front landing gear off and turn it into a real airplane".

My friend Ron learned on a Taylorcraft. He retired on a 747 but was still flying the T-craft. Those skills are transferable; it is more important to have the skills to fly a tail dragger than push buttons and turn knobs in the automated cockpit of a modern aircraft.

My friend Bill retired on the 767 but was still flying his Cessna 180.

Imagine these Asiana guys trying to land an aircraft on DCA's rwy 19!
...are we there yet?
 
hoons90
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:59 am

Quoting flylku (Reply 40):
Imagine these Asiana guys trying to land an aircraft on DCA's rwy 19!

What's your point? Asiana has flown to Kai Tak multiple times daily from 1990 to 1998 without any incidents. Wasn't Kai Tak more challenging?
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Okie
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:15 am

Quoting flylku (Reply 40):
I am not aware of any research on this topic but I suspect that pilots from countries with strong general aviation are the safest

I have to agree, however there are some countries where GA is practically non existent or cost prohibitive.

We had two guys up front here one with 12,000hrs the other with 9,000hrs having issues with manually landing an aircraft.
FR love them or hate them are supposedly putting 200hr pilots in the right seat with few pilot induced issues that has to say something about their training program that seems to be missing here.

Okie
 
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zeke
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:50 am

Quoting wingman (Reply 4):
I've also discussed this accident with a lifelong friend who pilots for a European major and has flown into SFO at least 50 times. In his words "no airport the caliber of SFO should have all of its automated landing aids a the same time, it's just stupid". I have the ultimate respect for this guy so I do wonder if there aren't significant contributing factors to this accident. No question the PIC should have had at least one eyeball on the speed but to me this all just looks like a classic set-up for failure.

There is a lot of merit to this comment. Those of us that fly ULH know all too well how the body does not perform at the end of a flight like it does at the start. Numerous studies have been done to show that fatigue alone can have the same effect on the body as drinking 6 beers. We do not let people drive a car after 6 beers, but it is "legal" to expect this of piltots.

In industry we have "flight time limitations", these set limits on how much pilots can fly, and how much recovery time they need before and after a flight. In these days where accountants run all over good common sense, these "flight time limitations" are becoming various companies "rostering target", i.e. they will roster pilots to those limits. When you go back to the people who designed these "flight time limitations" they view them as maximums, not as a rostering target.

By having good approaches available to ULH crews for the landing just makes good common sense, I know many people will disagree with me saying they could fly it no problems. Remember every day there would be hundreds of people around the world that drive a car illegally after drinking, a lot of them get to their destination, they are not caught. Some people do get caught, others only get caught after being involved in an accident.

Quoting bcoz (Reply 5):

I simply cannot fathom that you can have a pilot flying a 777 full of passengers who is "uncomfortable" flying a visual approach in relatively great weather conditions. I mean it almost doesn't even compute to me....

I do not know if uncomfortable is the literal translation of what they were saying, no large airliner is designed to be hand flown for extended periods. A visual approach in a large jet is still an approach made on instruments looking at the window for the centre line and aim point. Gimmicks provided by manufacturers such as control wheels and moving thrust levers provide pilots will a false sense of security, it does not give any feedback on performance.

Pilots still need to have their heads inside a lot to monitor the aircraft's performance. Fixation on too much on either the outside or inside will result in less than optimum results.

Quoting hivue (Reply 12):
Actually, he was depending on the A/Th. I'm not nitpicking here. If he had in fact been flying 100% manual things probably would have turned out a lot better. A successful GA perhaps but not a crash.

I am not sure abut that, I would like to see someone explain to me why the software update (low speed warning) that was made to the 737NG after the Turkish 737 crash in AMS was not rolled out to other types.

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 15):
Can someone explain to me the "gremlin" or known issue with the 777's autothrottle system that everyone seems to be mentioning?

It is not a gremlin all the time, it does exactly what it is supposed to do. Like everything on aircraft, at the wrong time it can have the wrong outcome, what they are referring to is the throttle hold mode (HOLD).

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 16):

It's sad to see Asiana plagued by the same issues Korean Air had a few decades ago. After a string of crashes, Korean Air took the opportunity to revamp their cockpit culture, let's hope Asiana does the same.

I maybe wrong, I was of the understanding that Asiana and Korean both had all their simulator training performed by the manufacturer.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
flymia
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:59 am

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 11):
Pilots in the US are always flying visual approaches and backing them up with available vertical guidance. Wether its in a cessna 172, CRJ or 747, the concepts are the same and not out of the ordinary. However, there is a time and a place for a visual approach and hand-flying. On a poor weather day, obviously you can't do a visual approach and using the automation to its potential is highly recommended to reduce workload. The day is question, was the perfect day to hand-fly and do a visual approach.

On another forum with mostly airline pilots as members they were discussing how in Asia it is very rare to do visual approaches and that is more of a western thing. They said from their experience flying into Asia even on a perfectly clear day they get the ILS approach. Others with experience working in Asia agreed and stated that at many of the Asian airlines they teach them more to fly the ILS and use automation than to fly the aircraft themselves. It is worrisome. Especially with the elder cultural of keeping you mouth shut if the guy is older/more experienced than you. That has to change in the cockpit asap.

Quoting liftsifter (Reply 33):
To say that you will avoid OZ until their pilots are more skilled is an anomaly in and of itself.

I will be honest. I would not want to fly OZ right now or for the next few years. Flame me all you want I think it is unexplainable to have two supposedly highly qualified international pilots on a 777 who don't know how to land the aircraft they fly on a perfectly clear day, in a perfectly good airplane. Every airline has had crew issues as most accidents are pilot error. But this is such a simple fundamental task that anybody who has flown a Cessna to an A380 understands. Airspeed, Attitude, Look out the window. It really is unexplainable.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
RickNRoll
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:29 am

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 34):
You have a point there. Didn't EK almost crash not one, but two A340s because of pilot error?

NW almost crashed on a landing at La Guardia. CRM failed again, non Korean pilots. Sounds to me like it's a training problem as much as anything else.
 
Mir
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:46 am

Quoting ricknroll (Reply 42):
Sounds to me like it's a training problem as much as anything else.

It is, but you can't deny that there are significant cultural issues that this has exposed in Asiana. The reluctance to call for a go-around because of being less senior definitely contributed to this crash. And the refusal to wear sunglasses because it would be perceived as impolite, while it may not have directly affected anything that went on, is quite concerning. Ultimately the pilots performed poorly, and you could certainly say the same about other pilots, but I feel quite confident in saying that pilots from most countries would not avoid wearing sunglasses if they needed to but their captain didn't. I also feel fairly confident that that's not the only area where culture is coming before safety, and those areas need addressing. They're unlikely to cause an accident on their own, but they're unacceptable weak links in the chain.

-Mir
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AA777
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:47 am

I'm all for looking at all contributing factors - but it appears that this was poor training and piloting. It seems unimaginable that someone who flew 747s for 20 years could end up botching a landing so badly like this. What are their sim training requirements? Any real check rides without pax?

At the end of the day, this simply shouldnt have happened. It's totally mind boggling. There was no external contributing factor that was severe enough to bring this plane down. The pilots of a 777 flying across the pacific should know how to land their plane in clear weather (or even windy, sh*tty weather), manually, and they should be very comfortable doing so.

AA777
 
tozairport
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:25 am

Never fly Asiana or KAL. I trained Asiana pilots and it was the most difficult time of my instructing career. they suck on a level that i cannot describe.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
 
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Finn350
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:49 am

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 15):
Can someone explain to me the "gremlin" or known issue with the 777's autothrottle system that everyone seems to be mentioning?

The "gremlin" seems to be this:

Quote:
The key might be found in a built-in operator trap, which results from the way the autothrottles on the 777 function. This is well known by 777 pilots and is referred to as the FLCH Trap. It is s possible that because of the autopilot mode (flight level change, or FLCH mode) the pilots had chosen, the autothrottles were, unbeknownst to the pilots, inhibited from activating automatically, resulting in the airplane getting very low and very slow. The possible scenario is that the pilot flying thought the autothrottles would come alive once the glideslope (which was actually out of service) became active. By the time the crew realized how slow (reported as slow as 103 knots) they were on final, the control columns were ready to shake or already shaking and it was likely too late to get the engines to spool up in time to avoid the disaster that did in fact result.
http://www.flyingmag.com/blogs/going...t/asiana-214-crash-lessons-learned

However, this article has been written before the hearings and it is not clear whether this issue ocurred in the current crash at all. Additionally I read somewhere, that when auto throttle is in hold position, it does not alway activate even though minimum speed would be reached. Even if this occurred, it would be a contributing factor to the accident, not the cause of the accident.

NB. It is almost impossible to use this site with Windows 8.1; this operating system seems to have some serious network performance / DNS issues with certain sites.
 
RickNRoll
Posts: 1869
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:03 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 43):

It is, but you can't deny that there are significant cultural issues that this has exposed in Asiana.

What was the cultural problem at La Guadia?
 
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teme82
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:53 am

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 25):
New (?) video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNfDUTGOEj0

Seems to be from a different angle.

Did I see right that the tail rose rather high in the air. Man those Boeing guys made that plane to last a beating.
Flying high and low
 
md11sdf
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RE: Ntsb Hearing On Asiana 214

Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:49 am

It seems inconceivable that, in 2013, NORTH Korean pilots, flying ancient Soviet equipment have better "Airmanship-Skills" than those in the MODERN South. Culture is one thing, but possibly they are relying on automation too much?

The North Korean pilots have to HAND FLY the Antonov, Ilyushin and Tupolev aircraft much of the time.

[Edited 2013-12-12 04:52:24]
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