santos
Topic Author
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TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:41 pm

TP has just announced that will start flights to BOG , PTY, TLL, NTE, HAJ, BEG, LED, GOT.

BOG & PTY will be a triangle flight, just like their new Manaus/Belem route.

It's great to see new routes in Central/South America, and Europe.
4x new A320 & 2x A330 will enter service in 2014, hence the expansion.

TP CEO just made the announcement on Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jySdEx_pvNo

http://www.presstur.com/site/news.asp?news=45324

[Edited 2013-12-13 13:45:27]
 
peterinlisbon
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RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:11 pm

I wonder if they'll have 5th freedom rights between Bogota and Panama. There are airlines charging over 500$ for a ticket on this sector, it would be quite cool to be able to fly the route on an A330 at a lower price. Also, it's good to have some more competition between Europe and Central America, there is not much choice at the moment (especially if you need to avoid the USA because of visa issues).
 
C010T3
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RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:53 pm

Entering the BOG market is a big wink from TP's part. I really hope both the Portuguese government and Synergy understand it.
 
airbazar
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RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:01 am

Quoting santos (Thread starter):
TP has just announced that will start flights to BOG , PTY, TLL, NTE, HAJ, BEG, LED, GOT.
BOG & PTY will be a triangle flight, just like their new Manaus/Belem route.

I am more than a little surprised that there is no expansion in either the UK or Africa. Only 2 cities served in the UK vs. 6 in Germany.
 
RCS763AV
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RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:13 am

This is amazing news, except that the PTY stop on the BOG route makes no sense, as it makes it uncompetitive for passengers connecting in BOG on the outbound and in PTY on the inbound. There must have been one hell of a subsidy thrown in from the panamanian government, and they're willing to take trash yields on the route. Oh well, welcome to BOG TAP! We've been sorely missing more competition to Europe!

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 1):
I wonder if they'll have 5th freedom rights between Bogota and Panama

Not only do I highly doubt it, but since this will be a triangle flight, it would make no commercial sense just to sell outbound tickets.
 
2travel2know2
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RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:49 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 4):
This is amazing news, except that the PTY stop on the BOG route makes no sense, as it makes it uncompetitive for passengers connecting in BOG on the outbound and in PTY on the inbound. There must have been one hell of a subsidy thrown in from the Panamanian government, and they're willing to take trash yields on the route. Oh well, welcome to BOG TAP! We've been sorely missing more competition to Europe!

I'd guess the subsidy given by the Panama Tourist Authority is tied to a non-stop flight both ways, since what Panama wants is for TP passengers to connect at CM hub.
That BOG stop on the way from Europe just doomed the service before it even started.
No wonder IB had to split its MAD-GUA-PTY-MAD into a GUA flight and a PTY flight. IB couldn't compete with such a service. Seems TP don't want to learn from IB experience with PTY flown w/triangle routes.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
offloaded
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RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:55 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 3):

ZB tried LIS BHX, it didn't work. From FAO, just about every major airport in the UK is covered by FR, U2, LS, TCX, ZB, BA etc? TP dropped the direct FAO LHR route about 5 yrs ago citing low yields.
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
airbazar
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RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:47 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 4):
This is amazing news, except that the PTY stop on the BOG route makes no sense, as it makes it uncompetitive for passengers connecting in BOG on the outbound and in PTY on the inbound.

Both BOG and PTY are *A hubs. Connecting passenger can use one on the outbound and another on the inbound. Nevertheless this is probably not going to last long. This is how TP usually starts new markets until they are mature enough to go non-stop. They've done it in Brazil for decades. And they've done in Africa.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 5):
No wonder IB had to split its MAD-GUA-PTY-MAD into a GUA flight and a PTY flight. IB couldn't compete with such a service. Seems TP don't want to learn from IB experience with PTY flown w/triangle routes.

TP has been introducing new destinations as triangle routes for decades. If anyone knows how to do it it's TP.

Quoting offloaded (Reply 6):
ZB tried LIS BHX, it didn't work. From FAO, just about every major airport in the UK is covered by FR, U2, LS, TCX, ZB, BA etc? TP dropped the direct FAO LHR route about 5 yrs ago citing low yields.

Right, but I'm talking about LIS not FAO. I find it hard to believe that there is enough demand for 6x daily to LHR plus 1x MAN, and nowhere else.
 
rutankrd
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RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:00 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 7):

Right, but I'm talking about LIS not FAO. I find it hard to believe that there is enough demand for 6x daily to LHR plus 1x MAN, and nowhere else.

Up to two daily from Manchester in peak and London operations split across Heathrow and Gatwick actually.

That said I believe Edinburgh may well get them at some point.

Problem for TAP in UK market certainly include massive leakage to the Charter/LCC carriers into Faro as well as Easyjet and Ryanair

Easyjet have already captured O&D from Bristol/Liverpool/Edinburgh in addition to Gatwick, Luton and Stansted to/from Lisbon

Ryanair fly Stansted-Lisbon and are the second airline at Porto serving Liverpool and Stansted.

Add to the long standing weakness in UK- South/Latin America.
 
SCQ83
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RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:46 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 3):
I am more than a little surprised that there is no expansion in either the UK or Africa. Only 2 cities served in the UK vs. 6 in Germany.

The UK is very London-centric. The UK and Portugal (other than tourism to Algarve) and Brazil do not have really deep economic or demographic links (other than the Brazilian community in London, for instance).

German industry and business centers are split among different cities. Many German companies have interests in Brazil. And there are even large communities of 2nd or 3rd generation Germans and Swiss in Brazil - usually quite wealthy - and with links to their "home" countries (i.e. a good number of them send their kids back to Germany for college). Also, there are large Portuguese communities everywhere in Central Europe (Luxembourg - Portuguese are 25% of the country's total population -, Brussels, Paris, Rhin-Rhur), so I assume some of those links to Germany are long-stand serving that VFR for decades (long before low-cost)... maybe some of those routes could be threatened because of Ryanair/easyJet but on the positive side, they have the addition of more TATL connections to Brazil.

TAP is in Star Alliance. Most corporations in Germany work with Lufthansa... so they have Star Alliance status. So if you are a factory in Dusseldorf (and there are plenty in that area!), you have to go to anywhere in Brazil for business, and you are LH Senator, TAP might be a logical way. There is nothing comparable to that in Bristol, Newcastle or Edinburgh.

Btw, that is the same for IB (even if it is in the same group as BA!). Even MAN did not work for Iberia... they only serve London. Iberia serves more destinations in Algeria or Switzerland that in the UK  Smile

[Edited 2013-12-14 02:51:21]
 
rutankrd
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RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:32 am

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 9):
Btw, that is the same for IB (even if it is in the same group as BA!). Even MAN did not work for Iberia... they only serve London. Iberia serves more destinations in Algeria or Switzerland that in the U

Actually Manchester worked well enough for Iberia for 30+ years
The recent short season with ANE was hampered by VERY poor timings and sudden and unexpected competition !

The route was culled after the sale of BAR to Flybe. Tried by WW as a point to point (useless).

Then suddenly 3 carriers fight it out at the same time Easyjet/Ryanair and Air Nostrum (IB) - something had to give !

Currently MAN-MAD operating 3/4 weekly by Ryanair.

IB Express with a 320 and proper timings in UK around 11.00/12.00 out 30/40 minutes later to make onward connections (as was to case for those 30+ years would surely work)- that said the ladies and gentlemen at Watership down would rather continue to route you through T5.
 
Summa767
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RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:47 am

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 10):
IB Express with a 320 and proper timings in UK around 11.00/12.00 out 30/40 minutes later to make onward connections (as was to case for those 30+ years would surely work)- that said the ladies and gentlemen at Watership down would rather continue to route you through T5.

I think that for connections in MAD there would have to be 2 daily flights, one of which would have to overnight in MAN in order to leave before 7 am to be in MAD at 10.30am: IB has its main long-haul bank at Midday.
A second flight would have to leave MAD at 3 pm or so to pick up connections and return for a 10 pm arrival in MAD an its second long haul bank centred around midnight.
So a big effort would be needed in order to compete with KL, AF, LH. Except that MAD is only strong in LatAm, and the others are much better all rounders.

On TAP, very good to hear of their intended triangular LIS-BOG-PTY-LIS.
A few weeks ago I suggested this would make sense, with others insisting that BOG did not need the PTY stop, and others that PTY did not need the BOG stop.
Well, TAP thinks that to make this flight viable the triangular is the way forward. WIth connecting possibilities at BOG and PTY, and of course at LIS, plus the sum of the local traffic from Panama and Colombia, flower cargo from the latter and of course the monetary incentive from Panama's government.

[Edited 2013-12-14 03:52:09]
 
rutankrd
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RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:03 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 11):
I think that for connections in MAD there would have to be 2 daily flights, one of which would have to overnight in MAN in order to leave before 7 am to be in MAD at 10.30am: IB has its main long-haul bank at Midday

Pretty much as it was before the sale of BAR. IB/BA codeshared and interlined with 3 flights through the day. That one hour time difference does impact MAD-UK operations particularly badly as well !

Iberia connections are/always were more localised than the long haul (Inter Spain/Canaries and yes Portugal !)
True major leakage on those to LCC/Charters through.
 
rutankrd
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RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:08 pm

Also too many on these forums seem to be un the illusion that only long haul counts for anything.
VAST MAJORITY of travel business included is short haul even domestic -Just ask an American or Chinese even a Spaniard !
 
Toni_
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RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:10 pm

It will be interesting to see how this BOG-PTY triangle will do. I doubt they'll fly it for a long time.

Adding TLL to the network really comes as a surprise to me. What am I missing here?
 
LH506
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RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:51 pm

Well I know why they added HAJ. Continental is headquartered in Hannover and has a big factory in SSA. I am sure the y will get some C Class business. Add to this Y class passengers to Portugal...
NOT FLOWN: 707 736 77L 788 78J 300B2 300B4 345 359 35J RJ70/146-100 F27 ATR72 CRJ1/4/10 E120/135/40 Q1/2/3 M87
 
airbazar
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RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sat Dec 14, 2013 5:08 pm

Quoting Toni_ (Reply 14):
Adding TLL to the network really comes as a surprise to me. What am I missing here?

Not much presently but the potential is there. Wikipedia has this to say about Estonia: "In 2012, Estonia remained the only euro member with a budget surplus, and with a national debt of only 6%, it is one of the least indebted countries in Europe". And this: "A balanced budget, almost non-existent public debt, flat-rate income tax, free trade regime, competitive commercial banking sector, innovative e-Services and even mobile-based services are all hallmarks of Estonia's market economy." They also have an educated popuation and a high-income economy.
Tourism between both countries is one area that has been growing and a non-stop route will stimulate that. Of specific interest to Portugal is Estonia's experience in e-services and e-government. Of specific interest to Estonia, is Portugal's experience and knowledge in renewable energy.
Here's more about the bilateral relations between the 2 countries:
http://www.vm.ee/?q=en/node/101
 
allegiantflyer
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RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:35 pm

Does anyone think a LIS - CPT - JNB - LIS triangle flight would work?
 
axelesgg
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RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:36 pm

Does anyone know when these routes starts? Frequencies?
Fly Draganair
 
vinniewinnie
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RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:48 pm

Forget the doom and gloom but wasn't TAP on the verge of bankruptcy a year ago? Why such expansion given that other similar small airlines (SN brussels) for example have pretty flat growth rates...
 
rutankrd
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RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:17 pm

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 19):
Forget the doom and gloom but wasn't TAP on the verge of bankruptcy a year ago? Why such expansion given that other similar small airlines (SN brussels) for example have pretty flat growth rates...

This is more card reshuffling than expansion per say.

No new aircraft on order or due any time soon.

Whilst i haven't yet seen the schedules i could well see both Leningrad (Sorry Saint Petersburg !) and Tallinn being low frequency overnight operations _ Its a long north and return from Lisboa.

Nantes likely a PGA F100 one would have thought (Most regional French ops are)

Belgrade - well somewhere is going see service reduction for this

And equally the 332 for that Panama service gotta come off somewhere else.
 
photolppt
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RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:50 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 20):
No new aircraft on order or due any time soon.

Sorry, but this is indeed expansion by TAP.
2 A330-200 and 4 A320 aircraft have already been secured for 2014, and these frames enable these new schedules, and extra frequencies to Africa and Brasil.
 
rutankrd
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RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:04 pm

Quoting PhotoLPPT (Reply 21):
2 A330-200 and 4 A320 aircraft have already been secured for 2014, and these frames enable these new schedules, and extra frequencies to Africa and Brasil.

Interesting have these been officially announced ? - I take it they're leases of some sort.

The 332s are interesting where from ex EK perhaps ?
 
LZ129
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RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:05 pm

Wikipedia claims they are scheduled to receive their first A350 in 2014. Is that true?
 
Azure
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RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:53 pm

Quoting PhotoLPPT (Reply 21):
this is indeed expansion by TAP.

Of course. When an airline opens 8 new routes, it is expansion!
Furthermore this comes in addition to the recently announced triangular service to Manaus and Belem.



Quoting airbazar (Reply 7):
TP has been introducing new destinations as triangle routes for decades. If anyone knows how to do it it's TP.

Maybe, but TP is not the only carrier to operate triangular routes (re : AFKL or TK in Africa).

These triangular routes are economically viable when there is no or very little competition at either destination (For instance Belem or Manaus have no direct service to Europe). This is not the case of BOG (non-stop service to CDG, FRA, MAD) and PTY (AMS, CDG, MAD) hence my skepticism even if I wish TP a good success on this interesting service. Hopefully the demand will be there due to the tremendous growth of Latin America but nonetheless the TAP service will not be competitive unless the fares are significantly lower.

It amazes me that TP becomes the first European Star Alliance member to serve PTY, after the long-established presence of OW (IB) and the recent growth of ST (AF/KL) at this Star Alliance hub.
What is LH doing ?



Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 19):
Forget the doom and gloom but wasn't TAP on the verge of bankruptcy a year ago? Why such expansion given that other similar small airlines (SN brussels) for example have pretty flat growth rates...

I do not think TP was on the verge of bankruptcy. It was to be privatized, due to a EU requirement in exchange of an aid package granted to the state of Portugal by other EU members.
 
rutankrd
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RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:22 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 24):
Of course. When an airline opens 8 new routes, it is expansion

When an airline lists new services any analyst needs to look between the lines - It not always what it seems

Just saying !
 
Azure
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RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:47 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 25):
When an airline lists new services any analyst needs to look between the lines - It not always what it seems

Just saying !

Ok. We can agree on that.
What have you found between the lines ?
 
2travel2know2
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RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:53 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 24):
It amazes me that TP becomes the first European Star Alliance member to serve PTY, after the long-established presence of OW (IB) and the recent growth of ST (AF/KL) at this Star Alliance hub.
What is LH doing ?

Specially since PTY is already an Star Alliance hub.
There are rumours here in PTY that LH will arrive next year, not sure if from FRA or MUC, frequency or schedule.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
airbazar
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RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:25 pm

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 19):

Forget the doom and gloom but wasn't TAP on the verge of bankruptcy a year ago? Why such expansion given that other similar small airlines (SN brussels) for example have pretty flat growth rates...

There's a difference between TP (the airline), and TAP the parent company  
The airline business of TAP is profitable, has almost always been since about 2001, and will continue to be as long as Brazil's economy doesn't collapse  
It's parent company however with all its subsidiaries has not. Nevertheless, TP generates enough cashflow to pay all its bills on time so its far from going bankrupt. It does have a large amount of debt and that's why it needs to be privatized because unlike private companies the government is not allowed to invest money in the company.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 20):
This is more card reshuffling than expansion per say.
No new aircraft on order or due any time soon.

Seriously?
- 10 new destinations announced in the last couple of months is reshuffling?
- 4 A320 + 2 A332 to be added to the fleet in 2014
- 12+3 A359 which start arriving at the end of next year

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 22):

Interesting have these been officially announced ?

That depends on what you call official   When the airline's VP says so only 5 days ago I take his word for it. TP is not known for making false announcements.
http://www.publituris.pt/2013/12/09/tap-confirma-6-avioes-em-2014/

Quoting Azure (Reply 24):
This is not the case of BOG (non-stop service to CDG, FRA, MAD) and PTY (AMS, CDG, MAD) hence my skepticism even if I wish TP a good success on this interesting service. Hopefully the demand will be there due to the tremendous growth of Latin America but nonetheless the TAP service will not be competitive unless the fares are significantly lower.

You're forgetting 2 things. O&D between Portugal and Colombia which is not insignificant and currently goes via MAD. You're also forgetting that LIS is geographically better positioned than any of the other hubs: no backtracking and close proximity to Spain as well as less fuel burned which should lead to more competitive fares. Also don't forget that TP has been in Venezuela for decades so they're not exactly a unknown airline in the region. Nevertheless I'm very curious to see how this develops. I hope it works.

Quoting AllegiantFlyer (Reply 17):
Does anyone think a LIS - CPT - JNB - LIS triangle flight would work?

I hope not. I'd like to see expansion in West Africa instead, which is well within reach of the A320.
 
A388
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RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:35 pm

When will the TP flights to BIG start and is the day of operation and ETA/ETD in BOG?

Also, what's the status of the proposed KL flight to BOG? Will it happen? If so, when and will be the days of operation and ETA/ETD of those flights?

A388
 
photolppt
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RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:48 pm

From:

http://www.presstur.com/site/news.asp?news=44699 (link in PT only)

Quote:
CS-TOQ (actual PT-MVH na TAM para onde entrou novo)
Número de série de fábrica: 477
Primeiro voo: 29 de Abril de 2002

CS-TOR (actual PT-MVK na TAM para onde entrou novo)
Número de série de fábrica: 486
Primeiro voo: 05 de Junho de 2002

So, the A330-200 already have a CS- register reserved, and are msn 477 and 486, leased via GECAS.
First flights around June 2014, the article states that, although they will be delivered sooner, they will first undergo a layout change, from 36C/183Y to TP layout of 24C/206Y.
 
Azure
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RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sun Dec 15, 2013 12:47 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 28):
You're forgetting 2 things. O&D between Portugal and Colombia which is not insignificant and currently goes via MAD. You're also forgetting that LIS is geographically better positioned than any of the other hubs: no backtracking and close proximity to Spain as well as less fuel burned which should lead to more competitive fares.

In fact, I am not aware of the traffic flow between Portugal and Colombia, but if it is as strong as you suggest, then there is a fair chance that the route be a success for TAP.

As for the location advantage of LIS over the other European hubs for a flight to BOG, it is not what you believe. Granted, LIS is better located than FRA for a connection to BOG in most cases, but not better than CDG if the origin in Europe is North of GVA.
LHR-BOG : 4856 nm via CDG - 4910 nm via LIS
CPH-BOG : 5211 nm via CDG - 5401 nm via LIS
AMS-BOG : 4883 nm via CDG - 5062 nm via LIS
Source
Considering the slight difference between the two options, I believe the distance ( and the fuel burn) is not an issue.
How about the total travel time including the stopover(s) ?
 
AM777LR
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RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:45 am

Shame they didn't start LIS-MEX....lots of room for a second Iberian (Peninsula) airline to be on that route (LIS/MAD-MEX)
 
SCQ83
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RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:29 am

Quoting Toni_ (Reply 14):
Adding TLL to the network really comes as a surprise to me. What am I missing here?

By looking at Wikipedia, the only carrier that can actually serve Estonia-South America is LH via FRA (other than interlines with Estonian Air). So considering that Iberia will not be anytime soon in Estonia, maybe TAP is trying to tap on those connections, and even the US (EWR and MIA) given the lack of carriers serving TLL. Bear in mind that Portugalia has a fleet with small planes (a few Embraer 145) so they don't need to deploy a lot of weekly seats.

Quoting Azure (Reply 31):
In fact, I am not aware of the traffic flow between Portugal and Colombia, but if it is as strong as you suggest, then there is a fair chance that the route be a success for TAP.

As for the location advantage of LIS over the other European hubs for a flight to BOG, it is not what you believe. Granted, LIS is better located than FRA for a connection to BOG in most cases, but not better than CDG if the origin in Europe is North of GVA.
LIS is located better than CDG for almost anyone in Southern Europe, which in addition are usually the markets that have more passengers to Latin America. You are missing here than TAP has a very good network in terms of destinations/frequencies in Spain, Italy and southern France, (I would say better than Iberia) and those flights suit well the LIS hub. If you are flying BIO-BOG, it is not a bigger headache to fly BIO-LIS-BOG than BIO-MAD-BOG. In fact the huge advantage that LIS has in Spain (and Spain-LATAM is a very large market in general for obvious reasons), is that it is the only hub other than Madrid where you can fly Spain-Latin America (and Spain-NYC/MIA) without backtracking.

[Edited 2013-12-15 01:40:02]
 
Azure
Posts: 624
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:34 pm

RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:07 am

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 33):
the only carrier that can actually serve Estonia-South America is LH via FRA (other than interlines with Estonian Air)

No. LH is not the only option from TLL.
AFKL has a codeshare agreement with Estonian Air to AMS and CDG...



Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 33):
You are missing here than TAP has a very good network in terms of destinations/frequencies in Spain, Italy and southern France, (I would say better than Iberia)

False, IB codeshares with VY and this latter is much stronger than TP in Southern Europe.
 
SCQ83
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RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:40 am

Quoting Azure (Reply 34):
False, IB codeshares with VY and this latter is much stronger than TP in Southern Europe.

I don't understand which is the relation between VY and MAD. VY is hubbed in BCN and the LATAM hub for IB is MAD... unless you fly Southern Europe-BCN-MAD-LATAM, you are better off flying with IB via MAD or TAP via LIS.
 
airbazar
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RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:58 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 31):
As for the location advantage of LIS over the other European hubs for a flight to BOG, it is not what you believe. Granted, LIS is better located than FRA for a connection to BOG in most cases, but not better than CDG if the origin in Europe is North of GVA.

But the 600 pound gorilla is Spain, and Southern Europe to a lesser extent. The same exact markets as Brazil. But even outside of those markets TP is just as popular as AF or LH when you look at their connecting statistics. TP does not fill 70 weekly flights to Brazil on O&D alone, which indicates that TP already has a very strong market penetration all over Europe when it comes to S.America. The MIA flight is packed with connections to Italy and Spain. I expect BOG and PTY to be similar.

Also like I said earlier, LIS is 600nm closer to BOG than CDG, 900nm closer than FRA, and even MAD is 300nm longer. All things being equal (which I know is a big IF), that represents less fuel which should equate to a lower trip cost for TP. That's where the real economic advantage is. Oh and they fly the A330 instead of the A340 used by IB and AF  
Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 33):
LIS is located better than CDG for almost anyone in Southern Europe, which in addition are usually the markets that have more passengers to Latin America.

  

Quoting Azure (Reply 34):
False, IB codeshares with VY and this latter is much stronger than TP in Southern Europe.

You're kidding right? How many European cities does VY serve from MAD?

There's another factor at play here that I don't think it's insignificant and that is the EK effect. TP is the only European carrier that codeshares with EK. This flight will give BOG and PTY 1-stop access to DXB (in one direction at first). I'm not sure what the business relations between these countries and the UAE are but it's something to think about.
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3843
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:28 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 24):
These triangular routes are economically viable when there is no or very little competition at either destination (For instance Belem or Manaus have no direct service to Europe). This is not the case of BOG (non-stop service to CDG, FRA, MAD) and PTY (AMS, CDG, MAD) hence my skepticism even if I wish TP a good success on this interesting service. Hopefully the demand will be there due to the tremendous growth of Latin America but nonetheless the TAP service will not be competitive unless the fares are significantly lower.

Exactly. BOG also has non-stops to BCN by the way. TAP will be taking some trash yields ex-BOG I have to say.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 28):
O&D between Portugal and Colombia which is not insignificant and currently goes via MAD.

It is not enough to warrant a non-stop flight either. TAP is trying to capture the very large BOG-Europe market, but stopping in PTY will not only add 2 1/2 hours to the journey, it will mean an extra landing and takeoff and all the inconveniences that come with it. If someone is going to a secondary european destination, which is the market TAP is intending to exploit, they'd much rather go BOG-MAD/CDG/FRA/BCN-XXX than BOG-PTY-LIS-XXX. On the way back, someone will much rather go XXX-MAD-PTY-XXX rather than XXX-LIS-BOG-PTY-XXX.

As I said, the PTY stop is probably just because the panamanian government threw in some cash, but I'm sure that the negligible O/D of the panamanian market won't be enough to sustain the proposed flight, as the connections will be uncompetitive. I predict this flight will go non-stop to BOG 4xw and to PTY 3xw in the near future, or will just drop the PTY stop.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 28):
You're also forgetting that LIS is geographically better positioned than any of the other hubs: no backtracking and close proximity to Spain as well as less fuel burned which should lead to more competitive fares.

The only backtracking that people encounter in MAD is if they're going to Extremadura, Galicia, the Canaries or Portugal. None of them huge connecting markets for colombians (maybe Galicia to some extent). The three large connecting markets in Europe for colombians without non-stop flights are Italy, the UK the Netherlands and Benelux in general.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 28):
Also don't forget that TP has been in Venezuela for decades so they're not exactly a unknown airline in the region.

That doesn't mean they're known in Colombia. Two different countries, two different markets. It's like saying that because AA flies to Germany, they are known is Austria and the Czech Republic because of the region.

TAP is a new carrier to the colombian and panamanian markets and will have to make it's brand known to the public.
 
airbazar
Posts: 9952
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:52 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 37):
It is not enough to warrant a non-stop flight either. TAP is trying to capture the very large BOG-Europe market, but stopping in PTY will not only add 2 1/2 hours to the journey, it will mean an extra landing and takeoff and all the inconveniences that come with it.

Right, which is why it is not non-stop   Not yet but it will be eventually.
Ok, 2 1/2 hours for a stop in PTY, or 2 1/2 hours for a connection in FRA or CDG. Take your pick. At the end of the day all that matters is what time you arrive at your final destination and how much the ticket costs. Oh, and they'll be the only *A carrier from PTY and second only to AV in BOG.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 37):
The only backtracking that people encounter in MAD is if they're going to Extremadura, Galicia, the Canaries or Portugal.

Right, but we've already established that there is room for another carrier linking the Iberian peninsula and BOG. There's also the fact that TP has a better reputation in Spain than Iberia does.
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3843
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:10 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 38):
Right, which is why it is not non-stop   Not yet but it will be eventually.
Ok, 2 1/2 hours for a stop in PTY, or 2 1/2 hours for a connection in FRA or CDG. Take your pick. At the end of the day all that matters is what time you arrive at your final destination and how much the ticket costs. Oh, and they'll be the only *A carrier from PTY and second only to AV in BOG.

No, I won't take my pick, since it is different. Because after the 2 1/2 half hour stop in PTY, you have to get to LIS and then have a 2 hour connection there, whereas via MAD, CDG, FRA or BCN you only have 1 connection to make. So the trip is considerably longer flown by TP, and it will be uncompetitive. non-stop would be another story and a great alternative to what's on offer.

And no, they won't be the second only to AV in BOG to Europe, as LH flies a daily A340-600 to FRA.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 38):
Right, but we've already established that there is room for another carrier linking the Iberian peninsula and BOG. There's also the fact that TP has a better reputation in Spain than Iberia does.

Yes, but with a non-stop option. TP will have terrible yields from both BOG and PTY due to the stop involved in either routing. The flight needs to eventually become non-stop or they'll be eaten alive by the competition. While these triangle routing may work at places like BEL and MAO or LAD and MPM where the face no competition, the story at BOG and PTY is quite different.

I was wondering, how long would a flight from LIS to LED/TLL take? Around 5-6hrs? They're most definitely medium haul destinations.
 
airbazar
Posts: 9952
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:58 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 39):

No, I won't take my pick, since it is different. Because after the 2 1/2 half hour stop in PTY, you have to get to LIS and then have a 2 hour connection there, whereas via MAD, CDG, FRA or BCN you only have 1 connection to make. So the trip is considerably longer flown by TP, and it will be uncompetitive. non-stop would be another story and a great alternative to what's on offer.

You're missing the point. If you're flying from BOG to Spain or Italy via FRA or CDG, those hubs require an extra 2+ hours of FLYING TIME because they are further north. FRA is an extra 900nm further than LIS. Then there's the immigration lines. Have you ever had to clear immigration at CDG during the early morning arrival peak? That's a 1 hour wait, minimum. Even with a stop in PTYyou're likely to arrive at your destination at the same time as a passenger on the LH/AF flights. Lets wait until we see the schedule to start saying it's a bad schedule.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 39):
Yes, but with a non-stop option. TP will have terrible yields from both BOG and PTY due to the stop involved in either routing. The flight needs to eventually become non-stop or they'll be eaten alive by the competition.

I agree that the yields will be trash but the flight is subsidized. New routes are hardly ever profitable in the first year or two of operation. The goal for the first 12 months is not to be profitable but rather to build brand awereness so the flights can eventually go non-stop when the subsidies end.

TP has proven to be a very viable option between LatAm and Europe, even when competing against the likes of IB, AF, and LH. They are *A's best weapon against IB and IAG in the LatAm-Europe market because FRA/MUC/ZRH are too far north. I'm excited for the future of this airline in Latin America. All we need now is a new LIS airport 
 
Summa767
Posts: 1847
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:03 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 37):
As I said, the PTY stop is probably just because the panamanian government threw in some cash, but I'm sure that the negligible O/D of the panamanian market won't be enough to sustain the proposed flight

How arrogant to claim that there is "negligible" O/D market between Portugal and Panama! Have you got figures?
I bet this is simply based on prejudices. Who would have thought that KLM would be flying 777s 300+ seater planes) daily to PTY (Actually 425 seater 4 times a week) and on top AF would add some more frequencies?
Of course there are a lot of connections at both ends, but just as KL, AF and IB manage to fill the planes, so can TAP!

Airbazar is absolutely right is that the shorter transatlantic distances to a god extent offset the disadvantage of an extra stop in one direction.
Furthermore, for connections, it will surely work in such a way that somebody going to CTG can connect in BOG outbound, and PTY inbound. Same can be said for many destinations in Colombia, and possibly LIM, UIO, GYE and even SJO, GUA, SAL)
Apart from these BOG won't be very good for any other international connections in this case, as TP already serves CCS, Brasil and other south-american destinations are served very poorly from BOG vs PTY.
When the BOG stop is removed from the PTY flight, it will help the competitiveness of the connections in PTY, but in the mean time the stop will benefit from the Colombian traffic and cargo.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 40):
Lets wait until we see the schedule to start saying it's a bad schedule.

I imagine that it might be a 1pm departure from LIS, arrival in BOG at 5.30pm. OK for domestic connections in Colombia and LIM, UIO and GYE would be have more of a wait. However, any later would mean no fitting in the last Copa connections bank.
Flight could be in PTY at 8 pm and depart there at 9.30pm, allowing picking passengers arriving in PTY for the last bank.

A 9.30 am departure from LIS could work too -certainly in summer time: 9.30 dep (as for BSB) would mean arrival in BOG at 1pm (good for colombian connections as well as LIM, UIO, GYE, SJO, SAL and GUA being in PTY at 3.30 and be on its way to LIS at 5pm.
(In Winter time arrival in BOG at 2pm would be fine for Colombian cities, but not so for the international connections mentioned).

I know that in a place like LON, a strong emitting market without direct service, the addition of the TAP service to BOG and PTY would be very welcome.
TP has some fine slots in LHR (in fact, it overnight to aircraft in LHR for well timed departures in the morning), and this service would compare very well to the dominant option, namely IB.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 25990
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:24 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 41):
How arrogant to claim that there is "negligible" O/D market between Portugal and Panama! Have you got figures?

8,500 annual passengers, or approximately 12 PDEW. That's negligible.
a.
 
Summa767
Posts: 1847
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:37 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 42):
8,500 annual passengers, or approximately 12 PDEW. That's negligible.

I am glad you know. If you could add the figure for LIS-BOG that would also be helpful.
And also what it was between AMS and PTY before it started service and what it is now.

The latter would be more interesting actually, as to measure O+D when there is no direct service has a big flaw.
You have yourself succumbed to your own figures. I just recall your arguments for MCO-BOG, saying that the service that would never work to "negligible" traffic. Well, jetBlue not only is doing well, but it is going 2 daily for the high season, plus there is AV too all year round.
 
airbazar
Posts: 9952
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:48 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 43):
I am glad you know. If you could add the figure for LIS-BOG that would also be helpful.
And also what it was between AMS and PTY before it started service and what it is now.

IMO the really relevant numbers are Spain/Portugal-Colombia and Spain/Portugal-Peru. Those are the 2 markets that this flight is going to eventually cater to, with some additional feed from the rest of Europe. PTY is just to get the subsidy in order to make it easier to venture into these markets. But you never know. 5 years ago I would have never guessed that TP would be entering MIA let alone sustain it.
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5063
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:37 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 7):
Both BOG and PTY are *A hubs. Connecting passenger can use one on the outbound and another on the inbound. Nevertheless this is probably not going to last long. This is how TP usually starts new markets until they are mature enough to go non-stop. They've done it in Brazil for decades. And they've done in Africa.
Quoting Summa767 (Reply 43):
I am glad you know. If you could add the figure for LIS-BOG that would also be helpful.
And also what it was between AMS and PTY before it started service and what it is now.

BOG may work very well due to the fact LIS is a good connecting hub for a portion of Spain as well as to some other places in Europe. This will be more of a flight for connections than O&D.
Lets see how TP will deal with BOG as part of a tringle route. I have to say that BOG alone would be better.
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
airbazar
Posts: 9952
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:15 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 45):

BOG may work very well due to the fact LIS is a good connecting hub for a portion of Spain as well as to some other places in Europe. This will be more of a flight for connections than O&D.
Lets see how TP will deal with BOG as part of a tringle route. I have to say that BOG alone would be better.

Connections in the back of the bus. O&D in the front. In the last year there's been a concerted effort by both Portugal and Colombia to increase Portuguese investment in Colombia. Over 1 Billion dollars has been invested in Colombia this year alone and already there are over 50 Portuguese companies operating in Colombia in areas like construction, food retail, and tourism. We can argue about the long term viability of PTY, but BOG is very real.
 
Azure
Posts: 624
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:34 pm

RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:00 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 35):
VY is hubbed in BCN and the LATAM hub for IB is MAD...
Quoting airbazar (Reply 36):
How many European cities does VY serve from MAD?

I was answering that TP's network in Southern Europe was better than IB/VY's.
The number of destinations served by IB or TP in this part of Europe is rather irrelevant, it is the frequency and the opportunities of connections that matters. I am not sure TP wins here.



Quoting airbazar (Reply 40):
TP has proven to be a very viable option between LatAm and Europe, even when competing against the likes of IB, AF, and LH. They are *A's best weapon against IB and IAG in the LatAm-Europe market because FRA/MUC/ZRH are too far north. I'm excited for the future of this airline in Latin America. All we need now is a new LIS airport

I agree that TP has potential, but it still is far behind IB or AFKL in Latin America.
To grow significantly, TP needs a better hub than the current LIS airport, and also more feeds from tier-II and tier-III airports in Europe. The main danger for TP is the growth of the LCCs that may undermine its European network. Like all the other legacies, TP is challenged on that.




Quoting Summa767 (Reply 43):
And also what it was between AMS and PTY before it started service and what it is now.

The latter would be more interesting actually, as to measure O+D when there is no direct service has a big flaw.

It could be more useful/easier to compare CDG-PTY before and after AF launched its service (last november) as it is more recent that KL's. I believe offer creates demand.
 
airbazar
Posts: 9952
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:38 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 47):
The number of destinations served by IB or TP in this part of Europe is rather irrelevant, it is the frequency and the opportunities of connections that matters. I am not sure TP wins here.

It's been winning for decades to places that it serves, mainly Brazil. So no reason to believe it can't win in other parts of Latin America. Unlike other European carriers, TP is actually growing in Latin America.

Quoting Azure (Reply 47):
I agree that TP has potential, but it still is far behind IB or AFKL in Latin America.

I wouldn't say it's far behind. According to Wikipedia here's the number of Latin American destinations served by each from next summer:
AF/KL 16
TP 15
IB 13
 
Azure
Posts: 624
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:34 pm

RE: TAP Portugal Expands In South America And Europe

Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:34 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 48):
It's been winning for decades to places that it serves, mainly Brazil. So no reason to believe it can't win in other parts of Latin America. Unlike other European carriers, TP is actually growing in Latin America.

I was not questioning TP's success or potential in LatAm but the size of its network in Europe compared to IB.
Indeed TP is growing on the Europe to South America market while IB is loosing market shares. In fact some airlines are benefitting or even taking advantage of the troubles of IB. AFKL and UX are the most aggressive ones, so is TP but to a lesser extend IMHO.



Quoting airbazar (Reply 48):
I wouldn't say it's far behind. According to Wikipedia here's the number of Latin American destinations served by each from next summer:
AF/KL 16
TP 15
IB 13

Well, I am not too sure about Wiki. Instead, I've re-read a CAPA analysis and the picture is slightly different.
As for the number of destinations in Latin America, CAPA finds :
IAG : 19
AFKL : 19
LH group : 7
TP : 9
UX : 7
This analysis dates back from March 2013. The figures need to be revised as AFKL, TP, UX have opened or announced new routes. Please note that the Caribbean are excluded, otherwise IAG and AFKL dominance would be even more obvious.

However the number of destinations is one thing, the traffic is another one.
Again, CAPA states :

Top 10 airline groups Europe to Latin America excluding Caribbean ranked by seats: 25-Mar-2013 to 31-Mar-2013

International Airlines Group
22.1%

Air France-KLM S.A.
21.7%

LATAM Airlines Group S.A.
10.4%

Deutsche Lufthansa AG
10.0%

TAP Portugal Group
9.0%

Alitalia - Compagnia Aerea Italiana S.p.A.
4.5%

Air Europa Lineas Aereas
4.2%

I believe that shows TAP is far behind the current leaders, which you could take positively as it stresses the potential of this market   

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