iowaman
Topic Author
Posts: 3864
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 2:29 am

Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:12 pm

Due to length, here is part two. The previous discussion is closed but available for viewing here: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? (by SA7700 Nov 11 2013 in Civil Aviation)
 
drew777
Posts: 182
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:34 pm

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:24 am

Quoting Prost (Reply 255):
Did any other state come close to Washington's $8.7 billion package?

All I have seen is that Missouri offered 1.7 billion. What we also don't know is Boeing's tax rate in Washington State vs all the other bidders. A poster in another thread mentioned that Boeing faces a airframe manufacturing tax in Washington. How that plays into their tax burden and the 8.7 billion package would be interesting to know. I would also imagine that Boeing's property taxes in Washington would be significantly more than say Alabama.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 26588
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sat Dec 14, 2013 4:09 am

According to local news radio, there seems to be interest amongst at least some of the rank and file (including those who had rejected the original contract) to review the new contract offer from Boeing, even though the 751 Local leadership had stated they did not intend to put it to the rank and file for a review and a vote.

Also, Boeing is now somewhat hinting that 737 MAX production may move from Renton in the future (as I have suggested may happen) if a long-term labor contract with Local 751 is not consummated.

[Edited 2013-12-13 20:11:10]
 
aerotech777
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 3:53 pm

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:47 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
According to local news radio, there seems to be interest amongst at least some of the rank and file (including those who had rejected the original contract) to review the new contract offer from Boeing, even though the 751 Local leadership had stated they did not intend to put it to the rank and file for a review and a vote.



According to FG (Flight global) the latest 777X offer was rejected:
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-boeings-latest-777x-offer-394098/

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
Also, Boeing is now somewhat hinting that 737 MAX production may move from Renton in the future (as I have suggested may happen) if a long-term labor contract with Local 751 is not consummated.



May be the goal of long-term contract is to have enough time to prepare to move partially from Renton. Boeing may have at 2 or 3 locations to manufacture the 737 MAX especially if they decide to increase the rate of production (more than 47 aircraft per month). This way Boeing will not be affected by the strike of the machinists at Renton in the future.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 26588
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:03 am

Quoting aerotech777 (Reply 3):
According to FG (Flight global) the latest 777X offer was rejected:

It was rejected by IAM Local 751 management, who also decided not to let IAM Local 751 members review it nor vote on it.

IAM National management still wants IAM Local 751 members to look at it (as do a number of IAM Local 751 members polled by local news radio).
 
flood
Posts: 1045
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:05 pm

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:43 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
It was rejected by IAM Local 751 management, who also decided not to let IAM Local 751 members review it nor vote on it.

To be fair, I understand Boeing's offer was on the condition of IAM management recommending its membership vote to accept the contract. For there to be no vote, both parties are to blame.
 
PHX787
Posts: 7892
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:13 am

My email to my insider within the AZ government has yet to be read   That guy takes waaay to damn long to answer his emails.
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
PITrules
Posts: 2109
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2000 11:27 am

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:36 am

"Boeing Co. this week will narrow its list of sites for building the 777X “down to a handful,” Commercial Airplanes CEO Ray Conner told employees. He reiterated the company's position that it had not withdrawn its second offer to the machinists union in Washington state but that the offer had been rejected."
http://triblive.com/business/headlin...4/777-boeing-company#axzz2nnxmVrJT
FLYi
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 26588
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Wed Dec 18, 2013 3:37 pm

Quoting PITrules (Reply 7):
"Boeing Co. this week will narrow its list of sites for building the 777X “down to a handful,” Commercial Airplanes CEO Ray Conner told employees. He reiterated the company's position that it had not withdrawn its second offer to the machinists union in Washington state but that the offer had been rejected."


Per local media, groups of machinists have been organizing rallies inside the Everett plant (and possibly Renton) demanding that IAM 751 local leadership allow them to vote on the current Boeing contract offer. However, it appears that the size of these rallies can be counted on two hands so it sounds like there is not much (public) interest amongst the membership.

[Edited 2013-12-18 07:45:37]
 
User avatar
SEPilot
Posts: 5502
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:40 pm

My assessment of the situation is that it has long since passed the point of no return. The local union has convinced itself that Boeing cannot function without its labor, and believe even now that Boeing is simply bluffing by threatening to move. Boeing management is not bluffing, and what's more, when this move is successfully made, you can start the clock ticking on all Washington state Boeing production. The 737NG, the 747, 767, and 777F will remain; the MAX may remain (because it is too late to move it seeing as how the union has a promise good until 2016), but any new program will not even consider Washington as a site, and all of the ones there are at or approaching obsolescence. The experience at Charleston is proving that establishing a new facility with a new workforce has problems, and is not as easy as Boeing would like; but I am sure that they foresee that soon enough Charleston will equal Everett, and the costs are less than submitting to periodical blackmail by the IAM.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 26588
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Wed Jan 01, 2014 5:17 pm

Local political leaders in Everett and Snohomish County on Tuesday urged machinists at IAM Local 751 to "take one for the team" and approve Boeing's latest contract offer because if they do not, they are 100% convinced that Boeing is not bluffing and will indeed place the 777X FAL to another state and the result will be significant economic damage to the city and county, as well as the union (via layoffs and the loss of future hires).

They warn the IAM 751 local that while in the past Boeing's negotiation model was to make a continuous sequence of "best and final offers" before finally drafting an agreement, now that Boeing HQ is in Chicago and Boeing has a 787 FAL in CHS plus 787 component facilities in CHS and SLC, the "old" negotiation model is now out the window and the IAM 751's adamant belief that Boeing will once again cave if the union hold firm is a false one and if they vote it down, Boeing will leave.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 3399
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Wed Jan 01, 2014 6:26 pm

Boeing is not carrying its weight in Washington State, infrastructure spending is seriously lagging. As it is throughout the US. Civil engineer society reports a $2 Trillion backlog

Education spending throughout the US and in Washington State is also seriously lagging.

It may be time to let Boeing go, and it should begin with removing as many subsidies as are legal.

Perhaps Boeing would be willing to discuss this with state governmental officials and make it as painless to the state and Boeing as possible. Then again perhaps Boeing is not interested in discussing.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
User avatar
kanban
Posts: 3989
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:00 am

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Wed Jan 01, 2014 6:41 pm

Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 11):
Boeing is not carrying its weight in Washington State

Interesting point of view.. however if the state keeps giving these huge tax incentives that handicap the programs you mention, is it Boeings fault or the states? Along that line the state identified sin taxes (cigarettes and booze) as a major source of revenue, then launched a anti smoking campaign. Sales dropped and so did tax revenue. Then the hitched their wagon to gas tax and push electric and hybrid vehicles.. gas tax revenue drops.. who's to blame when the money just isn't there?
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 3399
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Wed Jan 01, 2014 6:46 pm

Actually I was not discussing blame. I do observe that Boeing no longer seems to talk with the state about any of these things. It presents ultimatums.

I did make an error, the infrastructure backlog is, IIRC $3 Trillion.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
User avatar
7BOEING7
Posts: 3039
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:28 pm

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Wed Jan 01, 2014 7:18 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 10):
Local political leaders in Everett and Snohomish County on Tuesday urged machinists at IAM Local 751 to "take one for the team"

These are people some of which are already collecting one government pension who would scream bloody murder if their pension benefits were reduced -- typical politicians.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18642
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:48 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 10):
Local political leaders in Everett and Snohomish County on Tuesday urged machinists at IAM Local 751 to "take one for the team" and approve Boeing's latest contract offer because if they do not, they are 100% convinced that Boeing is not bluffing and will indeed place the 777X FAL to another state and the result will be significant economic damage to the city and county, as well as the union (via layoffs and the loss of future hires).

I believe the FAL will stay, but the wing will go elsewhere as will more 'barrel stuffing.'

But let's see... If the FAL moves, that would be epic as it would be unlikely to be a split FAL like the 787...

Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 13):
I do observe that Boeing no longer seems to talk with the state about any of these things.

??? Boeing talks. Its not an ultimatum to present the facts. Boeing presented a contract offer that was rejected. They sweetened the deal, but 751 management won't put it to a vote. Boeing's pension obligations are larger than the net worth of the company. At some point they must cut those obligations (cut pensions or layoffs).


Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
IndianicWorld
Posts: 3308
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 11:32 am

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:28 am

Boeing is a business like any other, and will move where it gets the best deal.

Just as Ford and GM have announced they are closing their Australian car plants in 2016/17, businesses dont have a need to care about where things are made, its where the most benefit for shareholders sits.

The unions thinking that Boeing won't just walk away is comical. Good luck explaining that to the members when Boeing moves ops from there, just as unions here have been good at blaming others but not themselves for the auto industry issues in Australia.

In the end, the buck stops somewhere, and its up to all stakeholders to work out what can and what can't be done. A decision must be made either way.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 3399
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Thu Jan 02, 2014 6:32 am

I agree that pension obligations are an issue. So are medical costs. Were the later 10% of the economy rather than 18% pensions could be funded.

Someone reported that the pensions are currently funded. Is that true? What percentage of workers pay is needed to fund future pensions? Standard negotiating would total all costs, wages, benefits, vacation etc and state it as a total package. Does anyone know what such a package looks like?

[Edited 2014-01-01 22:39:24]
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 26588
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:04 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 15):
I believe the FAL will stay, but the wing will go elsewhere as will more 'barrel stuffing.'

But let's see... If the FAL moves, that would be epic as it would be unlikely to be a split FAL like the 787...

Based on what Boeing is asking/demanding/requesting from the other states, this can only be a complete FAL and a wing-fabritcation plant.

So if IAM 751 rejects the contract today, the 777X is very likely going to be assembled somewhere else and when the 777 program ends, so will the employment of all the staff working on it in WA.
 
phxa340
Posts: 1068
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:07 am

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:13 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):

I am under the impression that this vote is about more than just the 777x but also the future of the 737 line. If the IAM members reject this contract I firmly believe Boeing will also begin looking for a new 737 FAL.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 26588
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:20 pm

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 19):
I am under the impression that this vote is about more than just the 777x but also the future of the 737 line. If the IAM members reject this contract I firmly believe Boeing will also begin looking for a new 737 FAL.

The current contract guarantees the 737 MAX would be built in Renton and Boeing is spending a fair bit of coin updating the facility for MAX production. So I believe that MAX production is safe.

That being said, failure to approve the contract would probably weigh strongly in Boeing's mind when it comes time to determine where the FAL for the NSA (New Small Airplane) will be located...
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18642
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Thu Jan 02, 2014 7:30 pm

Apparently, Boeing is claiming the new offer is worth $1 billion more to the workers:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/02/bu...nists-union.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0

Will the vote flip or not?

All indications are Boeing wants to select the FAL location soon.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):
So if IAM 751 rejects the contract today, the 777X is very likely going to be assembled somewhere else and when the 777 program ends, so will the employment of all the staff working on it in WA.

I always like your logic, but I do not think it will be that draconian. For example, part of Curtis Wright and Northrop is still on Long Island despite most work pulled. The 777X will still have engineers and buyers in Washington even if the plan is moved. But for IAM workers... yep, the jobs will just move.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 20):
The current contract guarantees the 737 MAX would be built in Renton and Boeing is spending a fair bit of coin updating the facility for MAX production. So I believe that MAX production is safe.

I believe Boeing will build a 2nd MAX FAL which puts the Washington FAL on notice.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 19):
If the IAM members reject this contract I firmly believe Boeing will also begin looking for a new 737 FAL.

I believe there will instead be a 2nd MAX FAL, with any future downward revision in the line rate first borne by Washington employees.  


Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 26588
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Fri Jan 03, 2014 9:39 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 10):
Local political leaders in Everett and Snohomish County on Tuesday urged machinists at IAM Local 751 to "take one for the team"...
Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 14):
These are people some of which are already collecting one government pension who would scream bloody murder if their pension benefits were reduced -- typical politicians.



There are worries that if the 777X FAL and wing work goes elsewhere, the loss of R&D experience until the next major program arrives decades later will mean WA State may no longer be a "center for aerospace excellence" and may spell the end of all aerospace work in the state.

And Bloomberg is reporting that if Boeing puts the 777X FAL and wing fabrication facility in another state that will result in the State's credit and bond ratings being downgraded, increasing the cost of financing projects.

For the 401K savings plan, for the first two years Boeing contributes 10% of the employee's gross earnings, then it's 6% for another period of time and then finally 4% each year thereafter.

[Edited 2014-01-03 13:52:06]
 
User avatar
ER757
Posts: 3583
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:16 am

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Fri Jan 03, 2014 9:52 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 22):

No doubt that the entire regional economy is affected by the fortunes of Boeing in the state. Everything from local shop owners to real estate values. Fears of an economic downturn in the area should Boeing move manufacturing elsewhere are well-founded. As someone living in the area and looking down the road at selling my house in a few years, I'd like the vote to go in favor of the new contract offer today. But that's just me looking out for my selfish concerns. The IAM members need to weigh the pluses and minuses on their own as I am sure they have done. My gut feeling is that it passes this time by a very slim margin. I've got nothing scientific to base that on, just my hunch. If it loses again, I truly believe it's the beginning of the end for Boeing in Puget Sound. Anyone who thinks they're bluffing is in for a rude awakening IMHO
 
rj777
Posts: 1801
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 1:47 am

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:14 am

I thought Boeing said they weren't going to put any more offers out there for the unions.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 3399
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:15 am

Revenge not appropriate. If things really go sour Washington state political leaders need to negotiate best possible outcome. The state is not without cards in this 'game'.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 26588
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sat Jan 04, 2014 2:49 am

Quoting rj777 (Reply 25):
I thought Boeing said they weren't going to put any more offers out there for the unions.

Boeing did revise the offer from the one that was rejected and this is the offer IAM 751 are voting on.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18642
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sat Jan 04, 2014 3:03 am

I came here hoping to find out something about the vote, it looks like it will take time to count. The closer the vote... the longer to count.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 24):
when the current contract expires.... The IAM will no doubt strike.

Ugh... The IAM will strike any which way the next chance they get. It is such a militant union that even when it shouldn't strike, it does.

The machinsts struck in 1977, 1989, 1995, 2005, and 2008. Since the next opportunity is 2016, doesn't anyone really think they won't strike?


http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20100922/BIZ/709239943

The reality is that a No vote won't impact anyone for a few years. But what Boeing is doing is planning how to best manage the next contract downturn.

The Boeing pension liabilities are a black hole. $19.7 billion underfunded iat the end of 2012 (I couldn't find a newer number). Boeing cannot afford to take the pension risk anymore. Hence the transition to a 401k style plan.


LGB.    The IAM would *hate* giving those jobs to the UAW...

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
User avatar
7BOEING7
Posts: 3039
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:28 pm

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sat Jan 04, 2014 4:01 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 28):
I came here hoping to find out something about the vote, it looks like it will take time to count. The closer the vote... the longer to count.

Not until 9PM PST at the earliest but with long lines it will probably be later.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 28):

Ugh... The IAM will strike any which way the next chance they get. It is such a militant union that even when it shouldn't strike, it does.

The machinsts struck in 1977, 1989, 1995, 2005, and 2008. Since the next opportunity is 2016, doesn't anyone really think they won't strike?

A very good reason to have multiple FALs.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 28):
LGB. The IAM would *hate* giving those jobs to the UAW...

The UAW learned their lesson in Detroit -- one IAM 751 is paying absolutely no attention to.
 
A10WARTHOG
Posts: 201
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2004 7:32 am

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sat Jan 04, 2014 4:33 am

I hope the vote turns out well. Even if vote down I think the FAL will still be in EVT. BSC has proven that you can not setup a new line without experience and hit your goals. Dont get me wrong BSC will be just fine after some more years, as they build the experience. But if Boeing does not want another 787, the only choice is EVT.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18642
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sat Jan 04, 2014 4:59 am

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 29):
A very good reason to have multiple FALs.

While I agree, the strategy I've seen Boeing pursuing seems to be maximize tax incentives and thus put everything in one location...

Read the earlier posts in the first part. I used to believe Boeing would split the wings from the FAL... Now I think it will all be about cost management and strike risk.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 29):
The UAW learned their lesson in Detroit -- one IAM 751 is paying absolutely no attention to.

The UAW seemed to be laying the ground work in the last five years for a rebirth in aviation manufacturing representation. I watched national squash a few strikes in California even as their members were laid off. I think they were planning long term for the next big aircraft contract. Amazing... what a change. Oh, they still represented their members, but no longer with militancy instead of strategy...

Quoting A10WARTHOG (Reply 30):

I hope the vote turns out well. Even if vote down I think the FAL will still be in EVT.

It is pretty clear if the vote is a 'no,' that Boeing will shop around. That doesn't mean the FAL won't be in Everett; but it does mean the cost/benefit of a few alternatives will be considered.

But without a new contract, the 777X cannot go to Everett for the simple reason that the IAM could strike as initial part production starts on the 777X. This would create delays Boeing cannot afford. For the 777X to be in Everett, Boeing must have a 'no strike' provision.

I'm not saying this is the last vote (unless it is a 'yes'), but rather it is not possible to keep the work at Everett if there is a high chance of a strike on the 777X between 2016 and 2020. Since without a new contract the IAM is certain to strike, Boeing must have a new offer signed and it seems they have selected 2024 as the time frame. That makes sense as the offer must be far enough out to have another program on the horizon to utilize as a carrot to avoid the next strike...

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
phxa340
Posts: 1068
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:07 am

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sat Jan 04, 2014 6:08 am

 
A10WARTHOG
Posts: 201
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2004 7:32 am

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sat Jan 04, 2014 6:08 am

Contract passed with 51%
 
User avatar
SEPilot
Posts: 5502
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:13 am

I for one am pleasantly surprised by the union vote; I thought it would go the other way. This is clearly the best outcome for both Boeing AND the union workers; and my hope is that it will lead to a lowering of tensions between labor and management, and perhaps when this contract expires they can come to terms without a strike. If so, then I see a good future for both Boeing and the union. Reality is difficult to face sometimes, but I think enough of the machinists have realized that it must sometimes be done, and have done it this time.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
User avatar
EPA001
Posts: 3893
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:13 pm

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:55 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 33):
This is clearly the best outcome for both Boeing AND the union workers; and my hope is that it will lead to a lowering of tensions between labor and management, and perhaps when this contract expires they can come to terms without a strike.

   Very good summary. I can only agree with that.

Was this a new vote on the same deal which was rejected earlier or were there some modifications that made the deal, though still a tough one, just a little bit sweeter for the union workers?
 
User avatar
SEPilot
Posts: 5502
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:15 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 34):

Was this a new vote on the same deal which was rejected earlier or were there some modifications that made the deal, though still a tough one, just a little bit sweeter for the union workers?

It was sweetened quite a bit, but the pension provisions stayed the same, to the best of my knowledge.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
phlswaflyer
Posts: 80
Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:02 pm

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:30 pm

These people should be grateful they have jobs.....and job security for years!! I know many many people that would love to have this kind of guarantee. The entitlement of unions just appalls and sickens me. The union management ( who have high paying jobs and union perks) just keep stirring the pot to make it seem like the union actuality has clout....most people just want to work. Period. Gotta give something up? Its tough out there. I have to pay for much more than these union workers ever will and I am grateful to be employed and for my employer.
 
User avatar
EPA001
Posts: 3893
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:13 pm

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:40 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 35):
It was sweetened quite a bit, but the pension provisions stayed the same, to the best of my knowledge.

OK. Thanks for your reply.  
 
phlswaflyer
Posts: 80
Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:02 pm

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sat Jan 04, 2014 2:12 pm

It was sweetened quite a bit, but the pension provisions stayed the same, to the best of my knowledge.

How was it sweetened? Any further details?
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 22243
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sat Jan 04, 2014 2:39 pm

I too am surprised that the vote swung from 2:1 against to a tiny margin in favor.

In reading the coverage, one thing that may have aided the the changed vote is that it was held yesterday, which was a day many of the more senior workers took as vacation and were out of the area and thus did not vote. Turnout was said to be low, but I didn't see any numbers reported.

Quoting PHLSWAFLYER (Reply 38):
How was it sweetened? Any further details?
http://www.seattlepi.com/news/us/art...ct-tied-to-777X-5113326.php#page-2 says:

Quote:

Boeing improved its offer after the last vote by machinists. An initial plan to slow the rate that workers move up the pay scale was tossed while the company also offered $5,000 in additional bonus money and improved dental coverage.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 9529
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sat Jan 04, 2014 3:15 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 12):
however if the state keeps giving these huge tax incentives that handicap the programs you mention, is it Boeings fault or the states?

So the RFP that Boeing had put out for the 777X was to give the states guidelines of what they should offer up to Boeing versus what Boeing was demanding?

Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 25):
If things really go sour Washington state political leaders need to negotiate best possible outcome. The state is not without cards in this 'game'.

Things have already gone sour in the state, if one were to compile the amount of work and economic activity that Boeing has moved out of the state the number may be shocking, starting from the headquarters move, whether good or bad it is economic activity that the state has lost.
State needs to start preparing for life after Boeing or at least start making plans to train its work force for no Boeing related industry rather than wait until Boeing pulls the plug.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 39):
In reading the coverage, one thing that may have aided the the changed vote is that it was held yesterday, which was a day many of the more senior workers took as vacation and were out of the area and thus did not vote. Turnout was said to be low, but I didn't see any numbers reported.

Conspiracy theory could mean that was deliberate, this is / was not a typical situation, Boeing has farmed out work to Charleston and is shopping the 777X around, everyone knows it not same old same old, so they still went on vacation?
At least they will be able to claims that they stuck to their guns and the younger ones screwed things up, let see how many of them start leaving for other jobs to preserve their integrity.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 22243
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sat Jan 04, 2014 3:25 pm

Quoting PHLSWAFLYER (Reply 36):
The entitlement of unions just appalls and sickens me.

I feel the same about the executives. Massive salaries and perks, a good old boy self protection network, bonuses when things go good and bonuses when things go bad, and on and on and on.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
ER757
Posts: 3583
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:16 am

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sat Jan 04, 2014 3:50 pm

Quoting A10WARTHOG (Reply 32):
Contract passed with 51%

Call me Nostradamus  
Quoting ER757 (Reply 23):
My gut feeling is that it passes this time by a very slim margin.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 26588
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sat Jan 04, 2014 3:55 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 34):
Was this a new vote on the same deal which was rejected earlier or were there some modifications that made the deal, though still a tough one, just a little bit sweeter for the union workers?

In addition to securing the 777X FAL and wing fabrication site, 737 MAX production guarantees are now extended through 2024.

Boeing still required a move from pensions to a 401K style contribution plan with Boeing investing 10% of the gross salary for the first two years, followed by 6% for the third year and then 4% per year thereafter,

Boeing increased the signing bonus from $10,000 to $15,000 via a $5,000 second bonus paid in 2020.

Boeing agreed to not change the "ZOOM" rate - the rate at which a machinist who starts at the minimum hourly pay rate attains the maximum hourly pay rate. So a new machinist will make their maximum hourly rate in six years, as current.

Employee health care contributions rose to 16%, however dental coverage increases to $2500 in 2020 and $3000 in 2024.


Specifics can be found here - http://www.iamw24.org/text-downloads/proposal.pdf



Quoting SEPilot (Reply 33):
I for one am pleasantly surprised by the union vote; I thought it would go the other way.

I'm not surprised the ratified it. I am surprised they barely did so.

With similar sweeteners, SPEEA changed their vote from over 90% against to over 90% in favor.



Quoting Revelation (Reply 39):
In reading the coverage, one thing that may have aided the the changed vote is that it was held yesterday, which was a day many of the more senior workers took as vacation and were out of the area and thus did not vote. Turnout was said to be low, but I didn't see any numbers reported.

Lines were said to be busy at the various voting booths.

That being said, it was believed that those most ardent against the contract would likely be on vacation and by setting it on the day the machinists returned to their jobs, there would be no chance for the more ardently opposed to "strong arm" their fellows into rejecting the contract.
 
User avatar
EPA001
Posts: 3893
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:13 pm

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sat Jan 04, 2014 4:11 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 43):
In addition to securing the 777X FAL and wing fabrication site, 737 MAX production guarantees are now extended through 2024.

Thanks for your detailled reply. Especially the B737 production guarantees for another 10 years is significant I guess.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 22243
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sat Jan 04, 2014 6:11 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 43):
Lines were said to be busy at the various voting booths.

Correct, but that doesn't necessarily mean there was a huge turnout.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 43):
That being said, it was believed that those most ardent against the contract would likely be on vacation and by setting it on the day the machinists returned to their jobs, there would be no chance for the more ardently opposed to "strong arm" their fellows into rejecting the contract.

Yes, that is what I read as well.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 44):
Thanks for your detailled reply. Especially the B737 production guarantees for another 10 years is significant I guess.

Agreed - Stitch is a great poster here on a.net!   
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 3399
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sat Jan 04, 2014 9:48 pm

There still has not been a significant discussion in the US between workers, employers, and the government regarding pensions and medical care.

Entitlement medical care without controls on spending is likely a major cause of our out of control medical costs.

Pensions are not out of date, they need to be funded and under promised. Social Security is becoming more and more important. Moderate adjustments could well see it restored safely and economically to cover 40% of salaries.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
TPA0822
Posts: 181
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:52 pm

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:03 pm

Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 48):

Pensions are not out of date, they need to be funded and under promised.

My company switched us to a 401(k) plan in 1997. If employees deduct the maximum amount allowed to get the biggest company match, it's doable. Unfortunately, many people invest their 401(k)s very conservatively. Historically, equities will give them the biggest return.
 
User avatar
7BOEING7
Posts: 3039
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:28 pm

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:39 pm

Boeing switched all the non-represented employees to a DC plan years ago (based on a percentage of your salary), it was no big deal. They also increased our 401K matching to 75% of the first 8% contributed. In the 401K there are 23 funds to select from so you can be as aggressive or conservative as you want. The IAM still has their old pension (it was frozen) + the new DC plan + an increase in the company matching from 50% to 75% (a 50% increase) -- sounds pretty good to me.
 
TPA0822
Posts: 181
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:52 pm

RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:59 pm

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 50):
The IAM still has their old pension (it was frozen) + the new DC plan + an increase in the company matching from 50% to 75% (a 50% increase) -- sounds pretty good to me.

Plus, Boeing gave in and salaries will reach the maximum in six years instead of the proposed sixteen and Boeing threw in more cash to the signing bonus.

I expect two tings to happen now that this is a done deal. One, the Machinists will replace their local leadership, which almost led them to ruin. Second, look for Boeing to continue to move more non-manufacturing jobs out of Seattle and at some point, build plants that will allow for more manufacturing redundancy.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos