roseflyer
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:42 am

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 50):
Boeing switched all the non-represented employees to a DC plan years ago (based on a percentage of your salary), it was no big deal. They also increased our 401K matching to 75% of the first 8% contributed. In the 401K there are 23 funds to select from so you can be as aggressive or conservative as you want. The IAM still has their old pension (it was frozen) + the new DC plan + an increase in the company matching from 50% to 75% (a 50% increase) -- sounds pretty good to me.

That is not necessarily true. It is a real mix. In engineering SPEEA accepted a contract with new hires exclusively on 401k with higher matches and contributions. He more senior SPEEA employees still have a pension. They essentially did the same thing to non-represented professional employees a few years earlier, but many senior non represented employees still have a pension that has not been frozen. Pensions are going away, but slowly and not for all groups at the same time.
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:00 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 41):
I feel the same about the executives. Massive salaries and perks, a good old boy self protection network, bonuses when things go good and bonuses when things go bad, and on and on and on.



No question you have a fair point. As long as a CEO is paid on stock performance outrageous pay packages will exits. I think its interesting that this CEO keeps his job with the 787 debacle...but I get it.....the stock is up and all is good
 
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:27 pm

Some very unhappy members of the IAM are out there
http://www.king5.com/news/aerospace/...ction-against-union-238739751.html

They hope to get a recount and say they are going to withdraw from the union. Yeah, that's mature....I didn't get my way and now I am taking my ball and going home.   
Seems to me that this would be exactly what management's wildest dream would be - busting the union. Question for those who would know - could they still work at the Renton or Everett assembly lines? I was under the impression those were union shops only, but am not clear on how that works.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:48 pm

Quoting ER757 (Reply 52):
Question for those who would know - could they still work at the Renton or Everett assembly lines?

No. Union membership is compulsory for those positions.
 
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:55 pm

Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 46):
Pensions are not out of date, they need to be funded and under promised. Social Security is becoming more and more important. Moderate adjustments could well see it restored safely and economically to cover 40% of salaries.

Defined benefits fail because they rely on a promise. That is it's fatal flaw and there is no fixing it. Cash has to change hands to the beneficiary, and not only one day when he retires - it needs to start flowing now, and then it's the responsibility of the employee to safeguard and invest it.

The person who is most interested in his retirement is the employee himself, not his employer. Do not put your future in the hands of someone who has nothing to gain from it.

Let's move away from a world based on IOUs to one that is solidly planned. No more dreamy, unrealistic promises by management or politicians.
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:23 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 54):
Defined benefits fail because they rely on a promise.

Incorrect. That money is deducted from an employee's paycheck (depending on the amount they select) and placed with companies that service the plans, such as Fidelity. The employer match is added to that account as well. That's not a promise, it's reality.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 54):
it needs to start flowing now, and then it's the responsibility of the employee to safeguard and invest it.

The whole idea of a 401(k) account is to save for retirement, not to "start flowing now." That's why the government gives favorable tax treatment as money is deducted - it essentially is tax free until retirement. The employee doesn't need to "safeguard" it, but does need to invest it for the greatest rate of return over the long run.

[Edited 2014-01-05 12:42:29]
 
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:59 pm

And almost always a well managed pension fund does better than an individual 401. Which is what is important to the individual.

What is, or should be, important to the company is that at the end of every fiscal year, they have no further responsibility for the pension earned in that and all preceding years.

Had Boing and the unions formed such an independent pension fund, even Boeing spinning off divisions could have been done with less stress, had the new company contributed to the existing fund. Many unions work this way, particularly in crafts where a typical worker works for dozens of companies, all pension contributions simply go the the one pension fund.

[Edited 2014-01-05 13:03:03]
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:35 pm

I'm curious as to what Boeing will be asking from Washington State and the Washington State Boeing employees when the next major aircraft project comes along.
 
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:49 pm

Quoting Prost (Reply 57):
I'm curious as to what Boeing will be asking from Washington State and the Washington State Boeing employees when the next major aircraft project comes along.

Probably a great deal, but in a way, both Washington and the IAM have strengthened their hands a bit by winning the 737 MAX and 777X. By securing both programs, Washington and it's workforce will spend the next decade strengthening their expertise in advanced aircraft design and production (this was a major concern of local lawmakers if the 777X went to another state).

I expect NSA (New Small Airplane) will be CFRP for even though it won't do much in terms of weight compared to the latest Al alloys, it does offer other benefits for high-cycle airframes. I also expect it will be more electric in architecture. Add in two decades of experience from the 787, and that is going to make WA and the IAM the "top seed" in any competition for the NSA FAL.
 
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:18 pm

Quoting TPA0822 (Reply 55):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 54):
Defined benefits fail because they rely on a promise.

Incorrect. That money is deducted from an employee's paycheck (depending on the amount they select) and placed with companies that service the plans, such as Fidelity. The employer match is added to that account as well. That's not a promise, it's reality.

That's a defined contribution retirement plan, not a defined benefit plan. There is a lot more to defined benefit pensions than what you just wrote.

Quoting TPA0822 (Reply 55):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 54):
it needs to start flowing now, and then it's the responsibility of the employee to safeguard and invest it.

The whole idea of a 401(k) account is to save for retirement, not to "start flowing now." That's why the government gives favorable tax treatment as money is deducted - it essentially is tax free until retirement. The employee doesn't need to "safeguard" it, but does need to invest it for the greatest rate of return over the long run.

I am talking about the characteristics of a 401K, not what it is.

Since the money is under sole control of the employee (the owner of that money) in a 401K system, it is obviously the employee's (rather than the employer's) responsibility to safeguard it. Just like anything else under the control of that employee.

"Start flowing now" was meant to convey the idea that there is a cash settlement between the employer and the employee. In other words, the employer pays what is due NOW and has no further responsibility nor is it able to in any way grab that money back. This is in stark contrast to some pensions and comparable to under funding of pensions in other employers.

In a 401K, the employee gets paid first. There is no IOU. You get paid based on what you can negotiate now, rather than on what someone with a "crystal ball" says they will be able to afford in the future.



Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 56):

There is no reason at all for a pension fund to do better than a 401K.
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:14 am

Two questions specially for Stitch and other pretty-well informed insider Boeing

1.- Do you think is it a good deal for the Boeing workers? 51% is a voting very close

2.- Do you think Boeing threat lo leave Puget Sound region wasn't a bluff? If it had been done, the 777X could be an unnecessarily delayed. Look for a new location, hire new qualified staff or make an enlargement on South Carolina is a massive change, long process that takes a lot of time.
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:47 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 59):
There is no reason at all for a pension fund to do better than a 401K.

There is every reason to believe otherwise. A pension plan, as opposed to a 401K, can be specifically designed to serve tens of thousands of people, and over a very long time span. Fully funded pension plans have done very well. In fact extraordinarily well.
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:58 am

Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 61):
Fully funded pension plans have done very well. In fact extraordinarily well.

The primary failing of Pensions have been companies wanting to hold onto the funds versus making them independent, their failures to properly administer is now being used to abolish the plans.
Hopefully banks and special trust companies will devolve their offerings so that it is not only available to large work forces and union groups.
 
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:19 am

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 60):
1.- Do you think is it a good deal for the Boeing workers? 51% is a voting very close

*Just* good enough. Apparently enough of the membership thought it wasn't a good deal. The issues the

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 60):

2.- Do you think Boeing threat lo leave Puget Sound region wasn't a bluff?

You will find that is definitely an opinion and thus very subject to interpretation. I believe that Boeing didn't threaten but rather stated the business case; they would have moved out of Puget sound without this ratification.

Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 61):
Fully funded pension plans have done very well. In fact extraordinarily well.

to fully fund Boeing's pension plan would take more money then the entire company is worth!    While I like the idea of pension planes, the reality is the old style pension plans adds investment risk to the funding corporation. The switch to 401K's shifts that risk to the employees. Since the company gets nothing for that risk, why take it on? A company does better with a fixed cost. The unions should instead negotiate greater 401K contributions by the company which ensures a good retirement for employees and those that invest well a *spectacular* retirement without the HUGE fluctuations defined benefit plans can have. Now, over time, the fluctuations are theoretically neutral, but for many companies that wasn't the case and the added payments were crippling.


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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:20 am

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 60):
1.- Do you think is it a good deal for the Boeing workers? 51% is a voting very close

I think it was a decent deal. They keep the pensions they have as well as the accelerated pay scale. Wage increases beyond Cost of Living are weak, but the signing bonuses are not. Their medical benefits remain excellent and dental improves.



Quoting SKY1 (Reply 60):
2.- Do you think Boeing threat lo leave Puget Sound region wasn't a bluff?

I don't believe it was. Especially after the IAM would have hit them with a strike in 2016.
 
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:23 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 64):
Quoting SKY1 (Reply 60):
2.- Do you think Boeing threat lo leave Puget Sound region wasn't a bluff?

I don't believe it was.

-1 to both of you for excessive use of negatives!  
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:14 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 63):
without the HUGE fluctuations defined benefit plans can have

The DB plan has huge fluctuations in total value for the Company requiring more contributions but not for the worker who is guaranteed a certain amount. The main drawback for the worker is possible bankruptcy of the company leaving them with the government guaranteed amount which is generally less (ie. various US airlines).

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 60):
1.- Do you think is it a good deal for the Boeing workers? 51% is a voting very close

In todays market a great deal. The guys near retirement will see no major change in their retirement and the new guys have a retirement plan that moves with them if they decide not to spend their life at the Boeing Company. The health care is excellent, they just have to pay a little more and they don't have to worry about going on strike for the next 10 years -- they always lose money when they do that for realitively little in contract gain.

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 60):
2.- Do you think Boeing threat lo leave Puget Sound region wasn't a bluff? If it had been done, the 777X could be an unnecessarily delayed. Look for a new location, hire new qualified staff or make an enlargement on South Carolina is a massive change, long process that takes a lot of time.

If the vote had been NO, the wing would have been built elsewhere but the FAL would probably still be in Everett for the 777X but all future work would have gone somewhere else, including a greater chance of the 737MAX opening another line in CHS.

No reason for delay, It's not that long a process and the facilities would easily be in place in time to build the airplane -- that's why the company was in a hurry to choose a site. The story with the 747 was the factory was being built at the same time as the airplane.
 
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:19 am

Lightsaber - a fully funded pension fund may not offer so high a defined pension as companies promise for the defined benefit plans (for which they keep the money in an account which have been used for other purposes in the past).

A fairly large pension plan (more than $10,000 people) is generally fairly stable. And actuaries are quite good, in fact close to perfect, in projecting pensions which a stated contribution can support. Often workers, as well as management, don't like the figures they project. But that is just reality versus hope.

Boeing is committed, at the point of potential bankruptcy to providing the pensions they have contracted for. I am suggesting that in the future there be a 'come to Jesus' point of honesty in exactly what they are promising, how realistic it is, and workers accepting the obvious.
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:45 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 64):
I think it was a decent deal. They keep the pensions they have as well as the accelerated pay scale. Wage increases beyond Cost of Living are weak, but the signing bonuses are not. Their medical benefits remain excellent and dental improves

OK, but then ...why a so tied vote 51% vs 49%?

Interesting this testimonial:

Quote:
heraldnet.com/article/20140103/BIZ/701039820 One woman came out of the room in tears. "The strategy of fear and intimidation worked," said Wilson Ferguson, a rank-and-file union leader, referring to the veiled support for the contract by the international union and Boeing's own campaign to sell the contract to workers

...the headline picture speaks by itself

Quoting lightsaber:
You will find that is definitely an opinion and thus very subject to interpretation. I believe that Boeing didn't threaten but rather stated the business case; they would have moved out of Puget sound without this ratification.

Leaving Seattle area means also a big effort in logistics, a long time to select the right place, unexpected delay for the 777-X project ...and Boeing management knows pretty well Everett has a know-how what is an asset by itself + the fact that Boeing-friendly legislation with tax breaks worth $8.7 billion keeps the Puget Sound location like the most realistic, ideal option.

But ...I know all this is still subjective, and my information source from Spain is much more limited than in the States by far.
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:58 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 63):
to fully fund Boeing's pension plan would take more money then the entire company is worth!

Your statement on the surface is significant, but put a little thinking would persuade you it is meaningless. Labor costs are perhaps the largest cost most companies deal with. If you add an additional 15% of salary and put it into a separate fund invested per modern pensions it typically grows far faster than an individuals saving.

So just from company/worker contributions you have more than 6 times annual payroll, and add the doublings.

15% of salaries over a 40 year work span generate not only the capital but at least a few doublings from capital gains, interest, and dividends. There are almost no companies that would have a stock value of the workers 15% savings invested by a good pension fund.

I understand that the Boeing pension fund is largely funded - with, please note, workers' money. If it is not funded that is the fault of previous management.
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:03 am

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 68):
a long time to select the right place, unexpected delay for the 777-X project ...

Not quiet -- here was Boeing time schedule for everything moving to an alternate site selected in early 2014:

Scenario 1:

Wing Fabrication & Assembly, Body Assembly, Final Assembly & Delivery

Start of facility construction no later than November 2014

Production start July 2016

All the rest of your reply was spot on.
 
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:33 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 64):
Quoting SKY1 (Reply 60):
2.- Do you think Boeing threat lo leave Puget Sound region wasn't a bluff?

I don't believe it was. Especially after the IAM would have hit them with a strike in 2016.

I concur. There have been a track record of Boeing moving work out of Washington State.

It started with the headquarter moving to Chicago. Then they added the second line in Charleston. Then there are the series of movement of technical (Engineers/Design Centers) staff from the Puget Sound. The latest was the consolidation of R&D activities to St. Louis. Couple that with the down turn in military production from the closing of the C-17 line to the possible end to the F-18 and F-15 lines, it's almost become a perfect storm of possibilities that gave Boeing a lot of options.

Even with this contract, I still see Boeing continue to move many jobs out of Washington. For the time being, however, the center of commercial composite technology will remain here.
  

I for one is relieved. And so is a few of my in-laws who are working in Everett.

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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:19 pm

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 68):
OK, but then ...why a so tied vote 51% vs 49%?

IMO, it is because a significant portion of the union overestimates their value to Boeing.
 
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:29 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 72):
it is because a significant portion of the union overestimates their value to Boeing

Maybe yes ...but it's sure Boeing could be a bit unhappy if some of them are hired by Airbus specially those who are the most experienced, qualified personnel.

At the end of the day it's important for many workers to know they will go on at Everett, but the main question ...is it well worth? Right now is too soon to try reply that question. Within five years we could perhaps discuss it  
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:11 am

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 73):
Maybe yes ...but it's sure Boeing could be a bit unhappy if some of them are hired by Airbus specially those who are the most experienced, qualified personnel.

Many people may be unhappy with the contract but unless they're from Mobile or want to move to the south, I don't think we'll see any defections. The pay scale is probably lower too. Airbus could probably get more managers or engineers to defect than IAM types,
 
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:21 am

And there is the phenomena that many from the NW area are less likely to move away from the area.
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:14 am

Some Union members are demanding a recount/new vote. Do any Union members on here know if that is possible? I thought I read on the Seattle Times blog that the vote was binding.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/wor...an-to-contest-crucial-labour-vote/
 
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:59 am

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 14):
These are people some of which are already collecting one government pension who would scream bloody murder if their pension benefits were reduced -- typical politicians.

Then the public can vote to remove those pensions. Personally I think that pensions for elected officials are far to easy to get high benefits without performance. I am not one that says no pensions for elected officials but you don't get one for one term that's for sure and they should not be as rich as they are now, a 401K would be fine.

For all these:
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 54):
Defined benefits fail because they rely on a promise. That is it's fatal flaw and there is no fixing it. Cash has to change hands to the beneficiary, and not only one day when he retires - it needs to start flowing now, and then it's the responsibility of the employee to safeguard and invest it.

The person who is most interested in his retirement is the employee himself, not his employer. Do not put your future in the hands of someone who has nothing to gain from it.

Let's move away from a world based on IOUs to one that is solidly planned. No more dreamy, unrealistic promises by management or politicians.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 63):
While I like the idea of pension planes, the reality is the old style pension plans adds investment risk to the funding corporation. The switch to 401K's shifts that risk to the employees. Since the company gets nothing for that risk, why take it on? A company does better with a fixed cost. The unions should instead negotiate greater 401K contributions by the company which ensures a good retirement for employees and those that invest well a *spectacular* retirement without the HUGE fluctuations defined benefit plans can have. Now, over time, the fluctuations are theoretically neutral, but for many companies that wasn't the case and the added payments were crippling.
Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 67):
A fairly large pension plan (more than $10,000 people) is generally fairly stable. And actuaries are quite good, in fact close to perfect, in projecting pensions which a stated contribution can support. Often workers, as well as management, don't like the figures they project. But that is just reality versus hope.

Boeing is committed, at the point of potential bankruptcy to providing the pensions they have contracted for. I am suggesting that in the future there be a 'come to Jesus' point of honesty in exactly what they are promising, how realistic it is, and workers accepting the obvious.

... I like the idea of the unions themselves managing their own pensions for the members. It gives a very real and solid reason to belong to the union, it gives the individual investing members the scale they need for real investing power and to have professional investment management at appropriate costs, it means their aren't shenanigans as the union and the members are in direct control of their investments (and if there is a problem they can only blame themselves), and the unions still have the negotiating power with the company for changes to the funding revenue. The company loves it because the expense is known and finite every year and doesn't hang on the balance sheet as some haunting expense that could kill them in the future.

The auto unions are begrudgingly beginning to do this with healthcare for their members. It is a risk of course but healthcare and pensions are a real reason to belong to a union in today's environment and that gives the union negotiating power.

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 68):
+ the fact that Boeing-friendly legislation with tax breaks worth $8.7 billion keeps the Puget Sound location like the most realistic, ideal option.

Well the question with this is how much tax burden is on Boeing in Washington as compared to other states? They all apply different taxes to different industries to both attract and keep those they want but also extract what they can from those same industries. For all we know Boeing has a $20 billion total annual tax burden that Washington imposes while other states would be much less. I haven't seen a breakdown of the total Washington tax burden on Boeing (workers, material, sales, compliance, etc.).

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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:53 am

Quoting tugger (Reply 77):

The problem with the union managing the money is corruption. It is far too easy for someone to get a 0.01% kickback for going with fund Z. When the balance is measured in the billions, that is a lot of pressure on making selections.

Pensions are great for the employee, but pose too much risk and burden for the employer. 401k's are ok for the employee and easy for the employer. The real problem with 401k's is less than half the population can manage their money to any reasonable degree.

Regarding 51% approval, it sounds like Boeing made exactly a good enough offer, not spending anything that would earn the votes of another few percent, yet enough for ratification.
 
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:30 am

Actually union pensions, which have to meet federal standards and operate under federal regulations, have functioned better than company pensions.
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:18 am

Quoting JHwk (Reply 78):
The problem with the union managing the money is corruption. It is far too easy for someone to get a 0.01% kickback for going with fund Z. When the balance is measured in the billions, that is a lot of pressure on making selections.

Actually they can't do that, ask Lockheed, they just lost a case regarding these issues. The funds must be accounted for and invested for the maximum benefit of the investors you are managing for. No kickbacks. Even corporate ones.


Quoting JHwk (Reply 78):
Pensions are great for the employee, but pose too much risk and burden for the employer. 401k's are ok for the employee and easy for the employer. The real problem with 401k's is less than half the population can manage their money to any reasonable degree.

That is why a union managed one would be a good idea, you can get professional management at an appropriate cost.

Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 79):
Actually union pensions, which have to meet federal standards and operate under federal regulations, have functioned better than company pensions.

  

It is a good value for the union and their members but I am sure that many companies don't necessarily want this as it will give unions new power and relevance in today's world. As I said it gives a real, new reason for people to join the union. Imagine billions upon billions of dollars under management for benefit of union members/employees.

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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Tue Jan 07, 2014 2:16 pm

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 68):
Leaving Seattle area means also a big effort in logistics, a long time to select the right place, unexpected delay for the 777-X project ...and Boeing management knows pretty well Everett has a know-how what is an asset by itself + the fact that Boeing-friendly legislation with tax breaks worth $8.7 billion keeps the Puget Sound location like the most realistic, ideal option.

I agree this helps the Puget Sound business case. But that is what it is, a business case. Boeing bought down two HUGE risks with this contract:
1. Strike risk in the business critical 2016 to 2020 time frame. Any strike during this time would have really hurt Boeing.
2. The pension liability/variability/risk has dragged down Boeing bond rating.

The later is key.

Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 69):
but put a little thinking would persuade you it is meaningless.

The problem is the variability of a pension obligation and rate of return risks. Who bears that risk? Companies aren't in the pension business and should go to defined benefit solutions such as a 401k. Less risk means more opportunities to develop new aircraft.

Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 75):

And there is the phenomena that many from the NW area are less likely to move away from the area.

There are enough skilled aerospace workers looking to jump ship right now.


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7BOEING7
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Tue Jan 07, 2014 3:23 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 81):
Companies aren't in the pension business and should go to defined benefit solutions such as a 401k

A 401 is a "defined contribution" plan.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 81):
There are enough skilled aerospace workers looking to jump ship right now.

They may not be happy with the contract but they're not stupid -- hard to find a better deal.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:20 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 81):
Boeing bought down two HUGE risks with this contract:
1. Strike risk in the business critical 2016 to 2020 time frame. Any strike during this time would have really hurt Boeing.

The more adversarial members are also older members and over the next decade a number of them will likely retire.



Quoting phxa340 (Reply 76):
Some Union members are demanding a recount/new vote. Do any Union members on here know if that is possible?

It is possible, but only with the approval of the National IAM and considering the National IAM wanted this contract to pass and is accused of rigging the voting date to help ensure it passed, there is pretty much no chance they will approve a new vote now that they have the result they wanted.

[Edited 2014-01-07 11:52:58]
 
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:37 pm

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 74):
Many people may be unhappy with the contract but unless they're from Mobile or want to move to the south, I don't think we'll see any defections. The pay scale is probably lower too. Airbus could probably get more managers or engineers to defect than IAM types,

Is that plant even Unionized?
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:43 pm

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 84):
Is that plant even Unionized?

No, in no small part because it does not yet exist.  

In 2012, the IAM said they would seek to unionize the plant.

However, as Alabama is a Right to Work State, even if the IAM or another union does gain representation, employees are not required to be part of the union (as they are in states like WA). So representation would be optional (as it was when the 787 production facilities in CHS were represented by the IAM before the members voted to decertify the union).
 
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:46 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 53):
No. Union membership is compulsory for those positions.

Here in Indiana a law passed that made it illegal to require someone to pay union dues as a condition of employment. It was thrown out by a lower court but the enforcement of it is allowed until it is reviewed by the state supreme court.
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:49 pm

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 86):
Here in Indiana a law passed that made it illegal to require someone to pay union dues as a condition of employment. It was thrown out by a lower court but the enforcement of it is allowed until it is reviewed by the state supreme court.

And that law effectively made Indiana a "Right to Work" state.
 
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:22 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 87):
And that law effectively made Indiana a "Right to Work" state.

Thankfully, and this situation with Boeing is a great example of why it should be that way. Unions should be like any other service where you are paid based on how your customer/members value your service.
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texl1649
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:36 pm

Boeing did a good job getting this across the finish line. Another 15 years on-site now, but realistically no new-build models are even remotely likely to be produced in WA. Order of 'end of production' I would guess will be 747-767-737-777.

787 will obviously be around for quite some time though (not sure how long at two campuses however).
 
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:40 pm

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 88):
Thankfully, and this situation with Boeing is a great example of why it should be that way. Unions should be like any other service where you are paid based on how your customer/members value your service.

This is another reason why the union itself should want to manage pensions and their funds directly as it gives a massive reason why people would want to join and become members of the union.

Tugg
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:27 pm

Tom Wroblewski, president of IAM 751, announced last night he is retiring on January 31.

http://leehamnews.com/2014/01/15/iam...esident-tom-wroblewski-steps-down/
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2

Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:31 pm

Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 61):
There is every reason to believe otherwise. A pension plan, as opposed to a 401K, can be specifically designed to serve tens of thousands of people, and over a very long time span.

That's a non-sensical statement. There is no reason whatsoever that all 401Ks, millions of them, could not be managed by one organization with one plan. But why in the world would anyone ever accept something like this? It's a bad idea all around.

Quoting tugger (Reply 77):
... I like the idea of the unions themselves managing their own pensions for the members. It gives a very real and solid reason to belong to the union, it gives the individual investing members the scale they need for real investing power and to have professional investment management at appropriate costs, it means their aren't shenanigans as the union and the members are in direct control of their investments (and if there is a problem they can only blame themselves), and the unions still have the negotiating power with the company for changes to the funding revenue. The company loves it because the expense is known and finite every year and doesn't hang on the balance sheet as some haunting expense that could kill them in the future.

Better than what we see today, but I still would not choose a pension over a 401K.
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