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catiii
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WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Thu Dec 19, 2013 5:03 pm

Over on the WSJ they've posted an article, which is impossible to link to, titled "Why Is Delta Afraid of This Tiny Airport?" In it they go into the expansion of the Paulding airport. Paulding, allegedly, has interest from Allegiant which would makes sense given the Allegiant model. The article rehashes the same debates that have been posted on here, but one thing I did find interesting is the overt comment by Holden Shannon that competition threatens Atlanta's economy.

Makes one wonder if they hold the same views about competition at, say, DAL  
 
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tistpaa727
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Thu Dec 19, 2013 5:16 pm

For a second airport to work in Atlanta it needs to be on the North side of 285. It can't be that far out West. Sorry Paulding county but I just don't see how a commercial airport would be viable out there. Gwinnett county is where a second commercial airport would work. Have Allegiant, WN, NK start ops there and you might be on to something.

Still interesting that DL feels threatened enough to say something. Clearly they must know something I am missing!
Don't sweat the little things.
 
apodino
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Thu Dec 19, 2013 5:18 pm

I can't read the article as I am not a WSJ subscriber, but assuming G4 were to start service there, I don't see how G4 threatens DL? G4 only runs a couple of RT's a week from their outstations, and DL has multiple frequencies from ATL to airports in those areas. (I assume G4 would go IWA, LAS, PIE, and SFB possibly) G4 also is an O and D centered airline, and something in the ballpark of 60 percent of DL pax at ATL are connecting. Plus the type of PAX that DL would lose to G4 would be the budget, low yielding PAX, not the High Yielding, FF types that DL prints money flying.

Honestly, the airline I would think would be threatened at ATL would be WN, not DL.
 
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Thu Dec 19, 2013 5:38 pm

Quoting tistpaa727 (Reply 1):
I can't read the article as I am not a WSJ subscriber

If you google the title of the article, then click the link, it bypasses the paywall.

This link should work, as it's the google link to the article which does just that:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...meCX3ss1f1nw&bvm=bv.58187178,d.aWc
 
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:16 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 2):
Plus the type of PAX that DL would lose to G4 would be the budget, low yielding PAX, not the High Yielding, FF types that DL prints money flying.

Honestly, the airline I would think would be threatened at ATL would be WN, not DL.

I agree. Let's leave the rifraff budget travelers to WN and G4, DL nor AA need them, they really dont add much to the bottom line.

As for the new airprot to threaten DL and hartsfield, I doubt it. WN should be the one quivering in its boots, lol.
 
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:24 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 4):
Let's leave the rifraff budget travelers to WN and G4, DL nor AA need them, they really dont add much to the bottom line.

I like the sarcasm!   Some people just don't understand.

Tugg
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WesternA318
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:57 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 5):
I like the sarcasm! Some people just don't understand.

LOL Tugg, unfortunately, there was no sarcasm intended there. I cant stand the people who pay the bottom rung prices offered by the likes of F9, WN, and G4, and airlines like those have no place in major International gateways such as ATL. Just my .2 cents.
 
Lexy
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:00 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 6):

LOL Tugg, unfortunately, there was no sarcasm intended there. I cant stand the people who pay the bottom rung prices offered by the likes of F9, WN, and G4, and airlines like those have no place in major International gateways such as ATL. Just my .2 cents.

Why don't they have a place in international gateways like ATL?

[Edited 2013-12-19 12:06:48]
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WesternA318
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:12 pm

Quoting Lexy (Reply 7):
Why don't they have a place in international gateways like ATL?

Just my opinion. Gateways need to be served by the network airlines that command a higher premium yield than the LCC's and ULCC's. All of those carriers should be banished to cheaper to use airports out in the sticks, while the networks and Int'l carriers use the bigger, better facilites for passengers with the extra bucks.
 
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:13 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 6):
I cant stand the people who pay the bottom rung prices offered by the likes of F9, WN, and G4, and airlines like those have no place in major International gateways such as ATL. Just my .2 cents.

I might be able to see your comment with regard to F9 and G4, but I think you go a bit far including WN in your comment. I do my fair share of travel (enough in some years to reach Platinum Elite status on both UA and DL), and enjoy the front of cabin service I receive when my trip warrants the fare or I get upgrade. However, let's be honest- if you are flying coach I rather fly WN for most trips then one of the major internationals. More likely to be on time, never going to get a regional leg, and much less likely to have cabin crew who act like they are working coach as a punishment.
To be honest, I rarely am purchasing bottom rung prices, because I need flexible/refundable tickets for business travel, but as it turns out in the coach cabin I get the same level of service no matter how much I pay. WN has been one of the better run airlines for several decades, both financially and with regard to customer service.
 
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:22 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 4):
Let's leave the rifraff budget travelers to WN and G4, DL nor AA need them, they really dont add much to the bottom line.

Yes, that is why WN and G4 have consistently lost money while DL and AA have had a stable and profitable business model for decades.   
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:22 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 8):
Just my opinion. Gateways need to be served by the network airlines that command a higher premium yield than the LCC's and ULCC's. All of those carriers should be banished to cheaper to use airports out in the sticks, while the networks and Int'l carriers use the bigger, better facilites for passengers with the extra bucks.

So basically you are saying it should be the model like in the Bay Area (SFO vs OAK), not that OAK is out in the sticks for those in the East Bay but this follows your reasoning to quite the extent.
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:32 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 8):
Just my opinion. Gateways need to be served by the network airlines that command a higher premium yield than the LCC's and ULCC's. All of those carriers should be banished to cheaper to use airports out in the sticks, while the networks and Int'l carriers use the bigger, better facilites for passengers with the extra bucks.

I disagree with that 100%. When an airport is funded by the government, like all in the US are, they cannot discriminate based on model or clientele.
Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
 
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:40 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 8):
All of those carriers should be banished to cheaper to use airports out in the sticks, while the networks and Int'l carriers use the bigger, better facilites for passengers with the extra bucks.

Let them eat cake! I'd say that if, via your ticket etc., you can pay your share of the landing fees, you evidently have enough bucks. And where international airlines have shed the riffraff, Silverjet, Maxjet and Eos style, it rarely goes well. Perhaps the great unwashed contribute more than we think to the bottom line.

Anyway, the gist is not that the Paulding Airport is going to turn into a 6 runway monster and bring down Atlanta by splitting the market, but rather the unsavoury levels the likes of Delta will go to in order to stamp out even modest (and this really is modest) competition.
Down with that sort of thing!
 
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:45 pm

Delta is not afraid of Silver Comet Field, they've just been naturally opposed to a second commercial airport in Atlanta since the 1960s because they didn't want to be forced to serve two airports in Atlanta. The irony in this is that the land the airport sits on was bought from the City Of Atlanta, who own a 10,000+ acre parcel of land that they bought in the 1970s as a possible site for a second airport (this is a sister parcel to the 10,000 acre parcel up in Dawson County that was bought for similar reasons in the 1970s).


Allegiant's less than daily schedule isn't that much of a threat to Delta or even AirTran/Southwest when it comes to their potential operations out of Silver Comet. This won't be too much different their operations out of AZA and the amount of flights being proposed per week is minuscule compared what DL does in a week at ATL (G4's operations would be a fraction of what DL sends out on a typical push.).

I can understand the local opposition to the plans, as it came completely out of nowhere and the residents have been steamrolled in regards to it. Delta is naturally going to stand up for their home turf and if service from G4 commences at Silver Comet, you know Delta will match fares (FL/WN will likely do so as well.). You've not really heard anything from FL/WN in regards to commercial service at Silver Comet (AirTran did speak out against Propeller's plans for LZU had the privatization plans there went ahead.). Delta ought to let the airport commence service and see if Silver Comet is going to be the next AZA or the next Mid America Airport.
 
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:52 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 6):
I cant stand the people who pay the bottom rung prices offered by the likes of F9, WN, and G4, and airlines like those have no place in major International gateways such as ATL. Just my .2 cents.

You realize the likes of DL, AA, UA fill much of their planes with those some bottom rung prices. In fact, on many advanced purchase fares, the likes of DL actually undercut WN.

Despite all the focus on business travelers, without a lot of leisure travelers, DL's ATL hub would be vastly smaller.
 
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:04 pm

Quoting Lexy (Reply 12):
I disagree with that 100%. When an airport is funded by the government, like all in the US are, they cannot discriminate based on model or clientele.

Actually there are many private airfields all across the country.
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:11 pm

Quoting Hmelawyer (Reply 9):
To be honest, I rarely am purchasing bottom rung prices, because I need flexible/refundable tickets for business travel, but as it turns out in the coach cabin I get the same level of service no matter how much I pay. WN has been one of the better run airlines for several decades, both financially and with regard to customer service.

I agree, and I travel the same way. My problem is Southwest has consistently screwed my family over in travels, so therefore I boycott them, and I simply refuse the Cattle Car boarding, plus W just doesnt fly to where I usually travel to.


Quoting DLD9S (Reply 10):
Yes, that is why WN and G4 have consistently lost money while DL and AA have had a stable and profitable business model for decades.

I never said they didnt, and it was just my opinion.

Quoting Lexy (Reply 12):
I disagree with that 100%. When an airport is funded by the government, like all in the US are, they cannot discriminate based on model or clientele.

Very true, no matter how unfortunate for us elitists.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 15):
You realize the likes of DL, AA, UA fill much of their planes with those some bottom rung prices. In fact, on many advanced purchase fares, the likes of DL actually undercut WN.

True, but Im more likely to not be forced to purchase a 2nd seat on DL or the networks due to my size, or have my family split up because some trailer trash ran down the jetway and plunked themselves next to me without warning.
 
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:19 pm

Quoting srbmod (Reply 14):
because they didn't want to be forced to serve two airports in Atlanta.

Why exactly would DL have to serve two airports????? If ATL is all that to them and the clients prefer the DL airport they will take the time to get to ATL.
AA is no different in DAL / DFW for example, AA chose not to serve DAL and they are fine, they could have used their RJ's to offer non-stop service compared to WN one stop but they chose not to and were successful, even so to their point where the "ran" DL out of DFW... one side of the story.

As for the low yielding pax, during the GFC the "great unwashed" were the ones keeping most airlines afloat as business travel went bye bye.
 
catiii
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:41 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 8):
Gateways need to be served by the network airlines that command a higher premium yield than the LCC's and ULCC's. All of those carriers should be banished to cheaper to use airports out in the sticks, while the networks and Int'l carriers use the bigger, better facilites for passengers with the extra bucks.

So then you're advocating against a free market system, and for a regulated style?
 
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:44 pm

Quoting srbmod (Reply 14):
I can understand the local opposition to the plans

As the article suggests, it is generally thought that these plaintiffs are shills for Delta.

Happens all the time when "citizens" can challenge development matters. A big shopping center planned for an industrial area adjacent to a dump, a railroad line, and the county vehicle maintenance facility here on Long Island was shot down by years of litigation mounted by "neighbors" who weren't particularly near the property. It was apparently demonstrated that the "neighbors" were being financed (and perhaps paid for their time) by owners of the other regional shopping centers.

It's a perversion of justice and even of the will of the electorate, but it is possible in our system.
 
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:59 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 6):
I cant stand the people who pay the bottom rung prices offered by the likes of F9, WN, and G4,

In my experience WN is rarely the least expensive ticket. It's often priced higher than the legacy airlines.
 
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:00 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 19):
So then you're advocating against a free market system, and for a regulated style?

Not at all...what I would prefer to see, and again, in my opinion, is segregation between fare levels and class of pax. Let the low yield ULCC's and LCC's fly from further out, and let the networks, int'l carriers and high yield pax fly out of the major gateways.
 
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:00 pm

I didn't see US quaking when G4 started service at Concord (JQF).
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:18 am

Maybe they should contact the good people at BLV to see how that plays out.
 
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:03 am

Quoting b727fa (Reply 16):
Actually there are many private airfields all across the country.

Yes, but I believe there is only one that offers scheduled commercial service, BKG. There are not too many fully private airports in the USA that can handle mainline aircraft. Air, road and ferry transportation receive lots of subsidies and corporate welfare while only passenger rail subsidies are challenged, since there are no corporate interests behind it.
 
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:19 am

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 17):
True, but Im more likely to not be forced to purchase a 2nd seat on DL or the networks due to my size, or have my family split up because some trailer trash ran down the jetway and plunked themselves next to me without warning.

You complain about people trying to get by with lower fairs, but you yourself are not willing to purchase an appropriate fare so that you don't spill into someone else's space. I much rather have trailer trash beside me that is in their own seat, than the most outstanding and educated business person who is too large to fit in their own seat and is therefore infringing on my space and comfort.

Don't understand how you have a problem keeping your family together on WN. Check in all together early enough and you will be guaranteed seats beside each other b/c of cattle call boarding.

Look I am not saying that WN is the greatest thing, but your perspective seems out of whack. As many others have said before, once you are back in coach there is very little difference between pricing and demographics between the majors and some of the LLC, with the majors being cheaper plenty of the time.
 
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:22 am

Quoting tistpaa727 (Reply 1):
Gwinnett county is where a second commercial airport would work.

   Well, I've heard that tossed around for a long time.

What about up near Cumming? I always thought the folks in Marietta,Alpharetta and Roswell would need to have good access to a new airport. Duluth needs international access.  
Irregardless, there needs to be good public transportation to any new commercial airport and that is going to be a huge undertaking.
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srbmod
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:15 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 18):
Why exactly would DL have to serve two airports????? If ATL is all that to them and the clients prefer the DL airport they will take the time to get to ATL.
AA is no different in DAL / DFW for example, AA chose not to serve DAL and they are fine, they could have used their RJ's to offer non-stop service compared to WN one stop but they chose not to and were successful, even so to their point where the "ran" DL out of DFW... one side of the story.

Not a valid comparison due to the Wright Amendment being in play for so many years. Let's not forget how much time and money AA spent to stifle and eventually kill off Legend's attempt out of DAL. DL has historically opposed a second airport because they didn't want to lose customers to their competitors and would have to serve that second airport in order to keep their customers. Silver Comet is not much of a threat to Delta or to ATL due to the limited number of flights planned per week couple with G4's less than daily schedule.

The thing is that Silver Comet only intends on being a single airline airport (but for how long, who knows).

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 29):
  Well, I've heard that tossed around for a long time.

What about up near Cumming? I always thought the folks in Marietta,Alpharetta and Roswell would need to have good access to a new airport. Duluth needs international access.  
Irregardless, there needs to be good public transportation to any new commercial airport and that is going to be a huge undertaking.

Plans to turn LZU into a commercial airport are dead and this is how Propeller Investments ended up over in Paulding County, as they were trying to get the deal to take over LZU but the county shelved plans to privatize the airport.

There's not really anywhere near Cumming in which an airport could be built. There is the Dawson Forest tract the City of Atlanta owns outside of Dawsonville, but the costs to build a new airport there would be astronomical due to the terrain in the area (not to mention a small area of the tract has higher then normal radiation levels due to the site's former use as a nuclear reactor test facility that used an unshielded reactor). There has long been local opposition (as well as opposition from conservation and environmental groups) pretty much keep the City of Atlanta from developing the site (They've proposed building a lake on the land to provide water for Atlanta, but that's got opposition from many quarters.).

When they were serious talk of a second airport in the late 60s, early 70s, they had a site on the northside of Atlanta near Alpharetta and Roswell (The site is question is where North Point Mall was built off of Mansell Road.). There was also a site south of ATL in southern Henry County that was considered and since nobody could agree on a site, the Midfield Complex ended up being built. Even then, Eastern and Delta opposed a second airport.

Dobbins was originally supposed to have been a second airport for Atlanta (just prior to WWII, the US Army had taken over a huge chunk of ATL and turned it into the Atlanta Army Airfield), but just before completion, the US military took it over for their own use (and unlike when NAS Atlanta was based on the old Camp Gordon site in Chamblee, it wasn't returned to the local gov't after WWII). Eastern had already agreed to serve the airport (To have been called Rickenbacher Field.) once it opened.

Back in the 1990s when the second airport popped up again, a site up in Jackson County was proposed, but the local government told the City Of Atlanta to pound sand. Athens-Ben Epps has been touted as a second airport (they do have some commercial service) but would need upgrades to the airfield to do so (Delta for years has wanted them to widen the taxiways and runways (as well as lengthen the runways) so they could send mainline jets to AHN for football charters. Northeast Georgia Regional Airport in Winder has also been touted, but there is local opposition to that as well.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 20):
As the article suggests, it is generally thought that these plaintiffs are shills for Delta.

That's probably not entirely the case. There is one member of the county commission there that has opposed the plans (IIRC, the airport is in his district). I think some folks are still in a bit of a daze over this to really put up much of a fight. When LZU and WDR both were looking into opportunities that would have potentially led to commercial service, there was a pretty vocal local opposition. In this case, the plans were done without input from the citizens and while they may not be complaining, they may wait to let their votes in the next election or two speak for them.
 
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:32 am

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 4):
I agree. Let's leave the rifraff budget travelers to WN and G4, [neither] DL.. need them, they really dont add much to the bottom line.

Yet DL caters to the "riffraff" by offering Budweiser and Gordons alcohol in the "exclusive" Sky Clubs and First class meals by the Piggly Wiggly... instead of targeting the lifestyle preferences of HVCs.

Delta is far from upscale. It's strategy is similar to Target's... mass chic.
 
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:43 am

Quoting srbmod (Reply 30):
Dobbins was originally supposed to have been a second airport for Atlanta (just prior to WWII, the US Army had taken over a huge chunk of ATL and turned it into the Atlanta Army Airfield), but just before completion, the US military took it over for their own use (and unlike when NAS Atlanta was based on the old Camp Gordon site in Chamblee, it wasn't returned to the local gov't after WWII).

Is there any chance that the military might stop using Dobbins, especially given the general downsizing of the armed forces that's now in progress? I wouldn't think that the Lockheed Martin plant would be incompatible with civilian use of the airport.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 20, 2013 5:26 am

Quoting srbmod (Reply 14):
Delta is naturally going to stand up for their home turf and if service from G4 commences at Silver Comet, you know Delta will match fares (FL/WN will likely do so as well.).

Here is the thing, the only place they can match fares to is LAS. DL does not serve SFB, IWA, or PIE. The thing they have to figure out though, is will G4 siphon pax off of MCO, PHX, and TPA? I am guessing not, especially with the amount of connecting volume these carriers rely on, they may find that it is best to concede this traffic to G4, and fill their planes with higher yielding local pax, along with connecting pax, who are likely to be higher yielding themselves.
 
Capt.Fantastic
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:17 pm

Quote:
Gateways need to be served by the network airlines that command a higher premium yield than the LCC's and ULCC's. All of those carriers should be banished to cheaper to use airports out in the sticks, while the networks and Int'l carriers use the bigger, better facilites for passengers with the extra bucks.

I'd prefer to be seated next to "trailer trash" than an elitist pig. Your advocating for segregation of passengers based on socioeconomic status smacks of racism, something I find intolerable. So, if you can only fraternize with the well-to-do, purchase a private jet and leave commercial aviation for the rest of us, you ignorant, racist [email protected]#$.
 
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:24 pm

Quoting srbmod (Reply 30):
they had a site on the northside of Atlanta near Alpharetta and Roswell (The site is question is where North Point Mall was built off of Mansell Road.).

Yes, that would have made a lot of sense as it would have brought ground transportation relief to a lot of people who live on the north side. I lived up in Alpharetta for years and it sure would have been convenient. I can't begin to tell how many hours I spent sitting in traffic trying to get to/from Hartsfield.
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
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par13del
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:00 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 22):
Not at all...what I would prefer to see, and again, in my opinion, is segregation between fare levels and class of pax. Let the low yield ULCC's and LCC's fly from further out, and let the networks, int'l carriers and high yield pax fly out of the major gateways.

So this is like high priced malls in one area of town and lower priced malls or Wal-Mart elsewhere and passing ordinance to prevent construction in each other area's, just looking at the principle of segregation.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 28):
Not a valid comparison due to the Wright Amendment being in play for so many years.

Well I think it is valid, the majority of pax WN flies out of DAL are not AA pax ducking an AA flight. In looking at the market dynamics, WN actually grew the market while AA was being successfull at DFW, they may argue how much as they would have liked all pax going thru DFW but that's moot for the discussion of the current reality.
AA could have used its 50 seat RJ's at WN to avoid the WA limit and offer a differentiated product - one stop 737 100+ pax versus 50 seat RJ non-stop - they chose not to, the 50 seat a/c would not have seriously dented their operation at DFW and would have allowed AA to service both airports possibly successfully.
 
catiii
Topic Author
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:14 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 22):
Not at all...what I would prefer to see, and again, in my opinion, is segregation between fare levels and class of pax. Let the low yield ULCC's and LCC's fly from further out, and let the networks, int'l carriers and high yield pax fly out of the major gateways.

Which is, in essence, a regulated system. If the market will support Allegiant serving Atlanta, why shouldn't they be able to?
 
PMUA787
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:16 pm

Interesting name for the Paulding Airport, Silver Comet Field. Silver Comet sounds like one of those named passenger trains from the olden days like the Central of New Jersey "Blue Comet".
 
WesternA318
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:33 pm

Quoting Capt.Fantastic (Reply 32):
I'd prefer to be seated next to "trailer trash" than an elitist pig. Your advocating for segregation of passengers based on socioeconomic status smacks of racism, something I find intolerable

Welcome to the real world. There's lots of us out there.

Quoting par13del (Reply 34):
AA could have used its 50 seat RJ's at WN to avoid the WA limit and offer a differentiated product - one stop 737 100+ pax versus 50 seat RJ non-stop - they chose not to, the 50 seat a/c would not have seriously dented their operation at DFW and would have allowed AA to service both airports possibly successfully.

Correct me if I'm wrong..didnt AA try something like that with specially laid-out Fokker 100's back in the late 90's or so? Whatever became of that?
 
gizmonc
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 20, 2013 5:06 pm

Legend Airlines was the brainchild of T. Allan McArtor, former FAA Administrator, Federal Express executive and Air Force pilot. Mr. McArtor was also a member of the United States Air Force precision flying team, the Thunderbirds.
The airline was envisioned to provide a new category of service to its passengers, where the entire aircraft was an improved form of business class. Seats were wider, and the removal of several rows of seats from the DC-9 added legroom. In addition, several Dallas-area chefs were commissioned to create meals for the airline. Meals were served on real china, with silverware, rather than plastic trays and utensils. The emphasis was on providing a class trip to business destinations.
Legend Airlines began service to four cities in the spring of 2000. Dallas (Love Field) was their hub city. Additional service was first offered to Washington, D.C., Los Angeles, and Las Vegas. New York City was added to the service schedule at a later date. Locations were chosen on the basis of business travellers' needs to fly into the central airport of the city rather than to outlying airports.
The airline provided service which bypassed the restrictions imposed by the Wright Amendment, which limits long-range passenger service into Love Field. Since the airline flew 56-seat planes, below the Wright Amendment limit that restricted passenger travel through Love, they could fly to airports outside the amendment's defined range. The airline flew 56-seat aircraft out of Love to Los Angeles International Airport and Dulles International Airport in Washington, among others. American, in turn, re-configured a number of its Fokker F100 jets to 56 seats so that it could compete.[2]in order to comply with provisions of the Wright Repeal law signed by President George Bush.
 
WesternA318
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 20, 2013 5:33 pm

Quoting gizmonc (Reply 38):
American, in turn, re-configured a number of its Fokker F100 jets to 56 seats so that it could compete.[

That's what I thought! I almost forgot about Legend! Thanks!
 
Lexy
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:08 pm

Quoting b727fa (Reply 16):

Actually there are many private airfields all across the country.

Indeed. I stand corrected. Thank you for clarifying that!

It's highly unlikely that Dobbins will be abandoned by the US Military. Lockheed Martin still has a large presence there alongside USAF Reserves and some Navy personnel. They do a lot with the C-5 and C-130's are built there.

[Edited 2013-12-20 11:26:07]
Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:16 pm

Regardless of all of the above, this airport makes zero sense for commerical airline service and promotes poor development/land use/sprawl.

It is a very poor use of any federal/state/local tax dollars or incentives, regardless if some portion of the total cost is funded by private money.
 
Lexy
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:16 pm

Quoting PROSA (Reply 30):

Is there any chance that the military might stop using Dobbins, especially given the general downsizing of the armed forces that's now in progress? I wouldn't think that the Lockheed Martin plant would be incompatible with civilian use of the airport.

Not likely as Lockheed Martin has a large stake in Dobbins.
Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
 
catiii
Topic Author
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:22 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 37):
Quoting Capt.Fantastic (Reply 32):
I'd prefer to be seated next to "trailer trash" than an elitist pig. Your advocating for segregation of passengers based on socioeconomic status smacks of racism, something I find intolerable

Welcome to the real world. There's lots of us out there.


Lots of you? Segregationists based on socioeconomic status who support re-regulating the industry and moving away from the free market?

[Edited 2013-12-20 11:38:42]
 
srbmod
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:27 pm

Quoting PROSA (Reply 30):
Is there any chance that the military might stop using Dobbins, especially given the general downsizing of the armed forces that's now in progress? I wouldn't think that the Lockheed Martin plant would be incompatible with civilian use of the airport.

Dobbins has managed to avoid BRAC for quite some time, and Air Force Plant 6 has a lot to do with that. NAS Atlanta was shuttered in the last round of BRAC and their side of the base was taken over by the Georgia National Guard (and the Georgia Dept. Of Defense) and is now the Gen. Lucius D. Clay National Guard Center (AKA Camp Clay). Georgia Army National Guard aviation units relocated to the facility (as are were a number of non-aviation units). The amount of development around the facility, as well as their proximity to ATL's flight paths pretty much rules out commercial service down the road if Dobbins JARB was closed.

Quoting PMUA787 (Reply 36):
Interesting name for the Paulding Airport, Silver Comet Field. Silver Comet sounds like one of those named passenger trains from the olden days like the Central of New Jersey "Blue Comet".

You're on the right track in regards to the name. There's a recreation trail a few miles north of the airport called the Silver Comet Trail which runs along the former Seaboard Air Line rail lines that were abandoned by CSX in the late 80s. Seaboard had a NYC-Birmingham train called the Silver Comet that ran on that line until the late 1960s.
 
Jerseyguy
Posts: 2258
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:24 pm

Delta started the whole lets reduce competition by merging trend and now they don't want G4 to offer less than weekly service to a small airport. Go pound sand, Delta.

[Edited 2013-12-20 14:02:38]
 
User avatar
rmoore7734
Posts: 236
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:43 pm

Interesting, out of that same article shows the following picture.



I always thought PHL was a top 10 metro with just 1 commercial service airport. What are the other 2 ?
 
Jerseyguy
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Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:05 pm

RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:54 pm

Quoting rmoore7734 (Reply 46):
I always thought PHL was a top 10 metro with just 1 commercial service airport. What are the other 2 ?

They were until November 16, 2012

2 other airports (not big but commerical) are
Atlantic City International Airport in Egg Harbor Township, Atlantic County, NJ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_City_International_Airport
New Castle County Airport in Unincorporated New Castle County, DE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Castle_County_Airport

New Castle County has approximately 15 flights a week from Frontier Airlines
Atlantic City International has service from Spirit Airlines and United Airlines (Starting April 1, 2014)

Trenton Mercer Airport (in the NYC MSA) has 35 weekly flights from Frontier Airlines (55 starting April 2014) but serves the Philadelphia MSA being 2 miles from Bucks County, PA

[Edited 2013-12-20 15:19:45]
 
WesternA318
Posts: 4603
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:55 am

RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:05 am

Quoting catiii (Reply 43):
Lots of you? Segregationists based on socioeconomic status who support re-regulating the industry and moving away from the free market?

Nope. Elitist pigs. Lots of us out there.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10819
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Sat Dec 21, 2013 1:41 am

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 37):
Correct me if I'm wrong..didnt AA try something like that with specially laid-out Fokker 100's back in the late 90's or so? Whatever became of that?

AA did so when Legend started up, but I think it was more to prevent another carrier's success DAL versus a legitimate attempt to offer additional service to the DFW / DAL metroplex, after Legend went away so did AA service.
Every time the states in the region had the WA perimeter expanded it could also have been viewed as a option for AA, but their focus was DFW and they were successful serving a single airport.

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