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BHMNONREV
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Sat Dec 21, 2013 2:43 am

Quoting srbmod (Reply 14):
Delta ought to let the airport commence service and see if Silver Comet is going to be the next AZA or the next Mid America Airport.

My money would be on the latter versus the former..  
 
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rmoore7734
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:34 am

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 47):

I suspected ACY but completely lost on the other, thanks for clarifying
 
PEK777
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:54 am

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 17):
True, but Im more likely to not be forced to purchase a 2nd seat on DL or the networks due to my size, or have my family split up because some trailer trash ran down the jetway and plunked themselves next to me without warning.

So you are allowed to be fat and take up two seats, but other people are 'trailer trash'?
I will take WN over any 'legacy' carrier any day. I flew AA domestic for the first time in years a couple weeks ago. Wow, I thought UA was bad!
 
catiii
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:19 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 48):

But you do support rereguating the airlines. Dictating what airports a US airline can, and can't serve, in the US is rereguation.
 
BNAOWB
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Sat Dec 21, 2013 4:11 pm

Among current G4 airports, which airport would be the closest "parallel" to Paulding/Silver Comet (assuming that G4 will start service there)?:

- 40 miles from a "major" airport that has "flights to everywhere" on a variety of airlines
- On the extreme outer edge of a large metropolitan area that has no other alternative airports
- "Non-leisure" metropolitan area that is within a 6 to 7 hour drive of "leisure" destinations (SFB and PIE)
 
milesrich
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Sat Dec 21, 2013 4:47 pm

Quoting tistpaa727 (Reply 1):
For a second airport to work in Atlanta it needs to be on the North side of 285. It can't be that far out West. Sorry Paulding county but I just don't see how a commercial airport would be viable out there. Gwinnett county is where a second commercial airport would work. Have Allegiant, WN, NK start ops there and you might be on to something.

Still interesting that DL feels threatened enough to say something. Clearly they must know something I am missing!

No they don't. Have you ever driven to Dallas? I have a case or two out their occasionally and from Roswell or Sandy Springs to the Paulding Court House is a horrible drive. No direct route. You either have to take I-20 to Thornton Road or drive out Whitlock Avenue. It's horrible and takes forever and the congestion in West Cobb will get worse, not better. As stated above, had the Gwinnett Airport allowed commercial flights, that might have hurt Delta a bit, but Paulding County, forget it. Cartersville would be a better location.
 
WesternA318
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:25 pm

Quoting PEK777 (Reply 52):
So you are allowed to be fat and take up two seats, but other people are 'trailer trash'?

I never said I was...the problem stemmed from a flight my Dad (who is half my size anyways) took and WN asked him to buy a second seat. He rightfully stormed off and bought a walk up full Y fare on AA instead. From then on I've boycotted WN, even though in the 90's I appreciated their business model.

Quoting catiii (Reply 53):
But you do support rereguating the airlines. Dictating what airports a US airline can, and can't serve, in the US is rereguation.

To that small extent, yes, other than that, I believe in the bloodiest of capitaliasm.
 
Jerseyguy
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:45 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 56):
To that small extent, yes, other than that, I believe in the bloodiest of capitaliasm.

Thats kinda like saying I enjoy a nice juicy steak 3 times a week but other than that I'm a vegetarian.
 
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tistpaa727
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:48 pm

Could ATL support a second airport...possibly. But we have to remember, ATL is so big because of DL. I don't have the O&D stats in front of me but isn't the majority of DL's traffic connecting?

I think if there was a second airport in ATL it would have to be up north where a large portion of ATL's middle and upper class live and would pick a northern airport over going down to ATL. PDK would be ideal as a domestic and minor international (Canada, Mexico) travel. The NIMBYs (which would probably include myself because I am just a few miles away and directly under the flight path) would never let that happen. Somewhere up 400 before Alpharetta / Roswell would work. It'll never happen though.

The big issue in Atlanta as was pointed out above is infrastructure. This town is just a joke and with the move of the Braves stadium to Cobb county the lack of a real transit station is going to become painfully apparent. No matter where a new airport would/could be built, it will need easy access and that is just not going to happen when the retards in government here think it is a good idea to build a trolley car system downtown...  
Don't sweat the little things.
 
Jerseyguy
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:20 am

Quoting tistpaa727 (Reply 58):
The NIMBYs (which would probably include myself because I am just a few miles away and directly under the flight path) would never let that happen.

Gee, I'm in the flight path of an airport a few miles from the runway, I wonder if this might be a problem in the future   
 
ltbewr
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Sun Dec 22, 2013 5:42 am

Could Paulding airport become a freight flight destination, taking some pressure from ATL ?
 
luckyone
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Sun Dec 22, 2013 3:02 pm

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 45):
Delta started the whole lets reduce competition by merging trend and now they don't want G4 to offer less than weekly service to a small airport. Go pound sand, Delta.

I'm curious if you've ever been to the Atlanta area, or Paulding County? If you have you might be singing a different tune. Paulding County is still basically the sticks. It has zero interstate access, and is realistically only convenient for West Cobb and Douglas counties--and even for them without interstate access there won't be much time savings vs. ATL. Aside from the fact that ATL is indeed as big and busy due to the Delta hub, it is located dead center of the Metro area, at the crossroads of three major interstates and not far from a fourth, which makes it easy for just about anybody to reach from the metro area. ATL will shortly have gate space available, WN is downsizing the former AirTran operation and UA/CO are about to consolidate into the T-gates. Why on earth anybody would want to spend $$$$$$ to get a cheap ticket once a year is a bit odd to me.
 
srbmod
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:49 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 60):
Could Paulding airport become a freight flight destination, taking some pressure from ATL ?

Not really. The airport is not close to the interstate highway system and the shortest route to the nearest interstate is a two-lane highway. There's a route that could be taken that is all four-lane highway, but you would have to go through several small towns as well as heavily developed areas (meaning lots of traffic lights). Years ago there were proposals to turn what was then called Tara Field down in Hampton into a cargo airport and that's pretty much dead and buried, as Henry County bought the airport back from Clayton County and any planned improvements are geared towards GA traffic as well as to allow more of the NASCAR teams to be able to fly into the airport instead of ATL.

Going through the archives, here's thread for a few years back in which in one of the posts someone actually proposed KPUJ as a second airport:

www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/4799334

Post in question:

Quoting HT (Reply 6):
Question is: Which purpose shall a second airport for Atlanta serve ?

In case it is to be a hassle-free airport with a low cost structure trying to attract lowcost airlines for only domestic flights, then something like Paulding County airport KPUJ located off US278 between Dallas and Rockmart could do the job.
I had a look around early in April when I accidentally passed the site and it much looked like the kind of airports (even though construction work still was going on) european LCCs tend to serve.
The drive from Atlanta on US278 isn't the best, but I also have seen airports being less easily reachable.
The 5505x100ft-runway, even though it is new, could see some extension to allow for single-aisle a/c (B737/A320-series) to reach destinations within, say, 3-hrs flying time.
P.S. On Google maps the site is still under construction, but it already opened as a GA-airport in 2009.
 
Jerseyguy
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:15 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 61):
I'm curious if you've ever been to the Atlanta area, or Paulding County? If you have you might be singing a different tune. Paulding County is still basically the sticks. It has zero interstate access, and is realistically only convenient for West Cobb and Douglas counties--and even for them without interstate access there won't be much time savings vs. ATL. Aside from the fact that ATL is indeed as big and busy due to the Delta hub, it is located dead center of the Metro area, at the crossroads of three major interstates and not far from a fourth, which makes it easy for just about anybody to reach from the metro area. ATL will shortly have gate space available, WN is downsizing the former AirTran operation and UA/CO are about to consolidate into the T-gates. Why on earth anybody would want to spend $$$$$$ to get a cheap ticket once a year is a bit odd to me.

I've been to Atlanta a few times, never been to Paulding County though no. You know the area better than I do, however I would be shocked to find out that the traffic during the week from Marietta to Hartsfield is all that good. Even if the travel time from Marietta to Paulding is the same as to ATL, the lower costs at Paulding will allow a cheaper ticket to be sold. Not to mention that I'm sure the parking will be free which will save $50 atleast on a week trip.

Besides, if Paulding/Silver Comet is going to fail as you claim, then I refer you to the WSJ's question Why is Delta afraid of this Tiny Airport? I would think Delta has some more pressing issues to deal with, like trying to get AS to go along with whatever game they are playing in SEA
 
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lightsaber
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:53 pm

I hope the ULCCs get a toe hold into a 2nd Atlanta airport. Why so much dislike for G4 and NK? They enable service. For example, I have a cousin who lives in Medford Oregon and G4 is really the only practical way to fly in for most of her relatives. For young people flying who can travel with just an underseat carryon, the cost difference makes the trip practical.

Quoting par13del (Reply 18):
Why exactly would DL have to serve two airports?????

Or they loose out on customers. If the airport takes off, if DL serves it, some large fraction of the passengers would fly DL and discover that ATL served their needs better. Its more of a service to convince fliers to go back to ATL (more destinations).

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 6):
I cant stand the people who pay the bottom rung prices offered by the likes of F9, WN, and G4

You do not like frugal people? I know some well to do executives who started flying as students on G4 as that is all they could afford. They still fly G4... And WN... you don't like small business owners? That is a big part of WN's clientele... People tend to stay loyal to the airline they flew when young if it meets there later in life needs.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 60):
Could Paulding airport become a freight flight destination, taking some pressure from ATL ?

Freight lives off connections too. ATL works for freight as DL will carry on some fraction of the incoming freight onward. Paulding would have to be a destination for some other hub as it would be Atlanta specific.

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 56):
I never said I was...the problem stemmed from a flight my Dad (who is half my size anyways) took and WN asked him to buy a second seat. He rightfully stormed off and bought a walk up full Y fare on AA instead.

WN has a clear policy. If the armrest doesn't go down or the person 'overflows' the armrest, they must buy a 2nd seat. As the person sitting in the next seat, I appreciate that policy. This could be a case where the small additional width of an A320 seat makes a big difference. Each person is allowed a preference. I personally avoid UA due to a series of experiences with "galley queens."

Quoting luckyone (Reply 61):
Paulding County is still basically the sticks.

Which is part of G4's model. Start service... watch the road infrastructure improve and G4 grow. Let's see G4 try. If they fail, it isn't much money. If it works, even on a small scale, that is of benefit.



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luckyone
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:55 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 64):
Which is part of G4's model. Start service... watch the road infrastructure improve and G4 grow. Let's see G4 try. If they fail, it isn't much money. If it works, even on a small scale, that is of benefit.

It's a lot of money. Runways and control towers aren't cheap.
 
WesternA318
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Sun Dec 22, 2013 7:05 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 64):
They still fly G4... And WN... you don't like small business owners?

I like G4, dont get me wrong, they've done some good from airports here aside from SLC, like OGD and PVU. How can I not like small business owners when I used to be one?

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 64):
That is a big part of WN's clientele... People tend to stay loyal to the airline they flew when young if it meets there later in life needs.

If that airline is still around, of course. LOL, I used to like WN in the 90's as the only places I really flew with any frequency to from SLC was LAS and LAX. Now, they dont fly to ANY of the places I frequent every year, and more than likely, they never will.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 64):
WN has a clear policy. If the armrest doesn't go down or the person 'overflows' the armrest, they must buy a 2nd seat. As the person sitting in the next seat, I appreciate that policy

Thats just it, it's also up to the F/A's to determine that. The problem is my dad is half my size, but neither of us spill over. The F/A's were just wrong.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Mon Dec 23, 2013 2:25 am

Quoting BNAOWB (Reply 54):
Among current G4 airports, which airport would be the closest "parallel" to Paulding/Silver Comet (assuming that G4 will start service there)?:

JQF is close, but it's closer to town and a bit further from Florida. The one airport thing is the same, though, as is the fact that much of the metro area is more convenient to CLT.

BLV would have been another analog when G4 operated it.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
N766UA
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Mon Dec 23, 2013 2:38 am

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 4):
Let's leave the rifraff budget travelers to WN and G4, DL nor AA need them, they really dont add much to the bottom line

Have you been on an airplane lately? Whether you fly Allegiant or Delta, 97% of the airplane is full of "riffraff!!"
 
PGNCS
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Mon Dec 23, 2013 3:45 am

Lots of interesting opinions and lots of ridiculous posturing here. It's way too long a thread to comment on everything, but here are a few comments...

Quoting Hmelawyer (Reply 9):
However, let's be honest- if you are flying coach I rather fly WN for most trips then one of the major internationals. More likely to be on time,

That's simply false. Southwest is nowhere near a market leader in on time operations. In October (the latest month stats are available for) the three most on time airlines were Hawaiian, Delta, and Alaska. The three worst on time airlines were Southwest, ExpressJet, and Frontier.

http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/press_releases/dot103_13

Quoting Hmelawyer (Reply 9):
WN has been one of the better run airlines for several decades, both financially and with regard to customer service

Financially they have been awesome. Their service is normally friendly. I am a former LUV investor. As a passenger I avoid them like the plague, mostly for their boarding process, but also for the excessive PAs and circuslike onboard demeanor. I want to sit down, hear the safety demo and then have quiet so I can read or work on whatever I need to be doing. I don't want to hear a rapping FA, I don't want to guess the combined age of the FAs, and I don't want to sing Happy Birthday to someone. If others like them I am (honestly) fine with it, I just detest being on their planes.

Quoting BaconButty (Reply 13):
Anyway, the gist is not that the Paulding Airport is going to turn into a 6 runway monster and bring down Atlanta by splitting the market, but rather the unsavoury levels the likes of Delta will go to in order to stamp out even modest (and this really is modest) competition.

Delta is a business. Businesses look out for their economic best interests. It's really quite simple, and it's no more unsavory than any other company looking after its finances. It's not a charity, it's business.

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 17):
I simply refuse the Cattle Car boarding

That is my single biggest issue with Southwest. Words cannot convey my distaste for their boarding process.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 21):
Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 6): I cant stand the people who pay the bottom rung prices offered by the likes of F9, WN, and G4,
In my experience WN is rarely the least expensive ticket. It's often priced higher than the legacy airlines.

Correct. Southwest is frequently far from cheapest in a market.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 41):
It is a very poor use of any federal/state/local tax dollars or incentives, regardless if some portion of the total cost is funded by private money.

Correct, which is why oppose it like I oppose the BLV fiasco.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 68):
Have you been on an airplane lately? Whether you fly Allegiant or Delta, 97% of the airplane is full of "riffraff!!"

I've been on a bunch of airplanes lately. I see passengers when they get off. I thank them all and treat them all as well as possible regardless of how they are dressed (or presumably how much they paid.)
 
Cubsrule
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Mon Dec 23, 2013 2:52 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 69):
I don't want to hear a rapping FA, I don't want to guess the combined age of the FAs, and I don't want to sing Happy Birthday to someone.

I fly WN a ton (companion pass holder), and I can't remember the last time I experienced any of these things. Actually, I can remember the last time I had a rapping f/a. It was on a 9E flight.

As WN has tried to cater more to business passengers, the f/a shenanigans have decreased significantly.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 69):
In October (the latest month stats are available for) the three most on time airlines were Hawaiian, Delta, and Alaska. The three worst on time airlines were Southwest, ExpressJet, and Frontier.

To be fair, October was obviously anomalous. WN is usually low-average, and some of the difference is due to tighter block times. On BNA-LGA, a route I know well, WN always blocks 5-10 minutes less than DL and and sometimes as much as half an hour less than AA.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
milesrich
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Tue Dec 24, 2013 4:03 pm

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 57):
Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 56):
To that small extent, yes, other than that, I believe in the bloodiest of capitaliasm.

Thats kinda like saying I enjoy a nice juicy steak 3 times a week but other than that I'm a vegetarian.

That is a nice way of putting it JerseyGuy. I just love the way these right wingers claim they are for capitalism or against "big government" until private enterprise does something they don't like, or the government threatens to take away a benefit they use.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 60):
Could Paulding airport become a freight flight destination, taking some pressure from ATL ?

Moving freight to another airport will not take pressure off of ATL. Cargo flights operate at off peak times when there is little or NO other air traffic. The cargo area of ATL is near where the 1960 terminal was off Virginia Avenue toward Hapeville. If that were eliminated, it would not create anything but more space for Delta to park back up equipment or equipment not used on the weekends.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 61):
I'm curious if you've ever been to the Atlanta area, or Paulding County? If you have you might be singing a different tune. Paulding County is still basically the sticks. It has zero interstate access, and is realistically only convenient for West Cobb and Douglas counties--and even for them without interstate access there won't be much time savings vs. ATL. Aside from the fact that ATL is indeed as big and busy due to the Delta hub, it is located dead center of the Metro area, at the crossroads of three major interstates and not far from a fourth, which makes it easy for just about anybody to reach from the metro area. ATL will shortly have gate space available, WN is downsizing the former AirTran operation and UA/CO are about to consolidate into the T-gates. Why on earth anybody would want to spend $$$$$$ to get a cheap ticket once a year is a bit odd to me.


Paulding will be the sticks for the foreseeable future. There is literally no way to get there with any speed unless you live in Hiram.
 
srbmod
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:31 pm

Quoting milesrich (Reply 72):
Moving freight to another airport will not take pressure off of ATL. Cargo flights operate at off peak times when there is little or NO other air traffic. The cargo area of ATL is near where the 1960 terminal was off Virginia Avenue toward Hapeville. If that were eliminated, it would not create anything but more space for Delta to park back up equipment or equipment not used on the weekends.

Back when Clayton County owned Tara Field (Now renamed Atlanta South Regional Airport after the airport was bought back by Henry County.), there were plans under consideration to turn it into a cargo airport. Plans never really went anywhere, which wasn't surprising.
 
prosa
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:07 pm

Quoting BNAOWB (Reply 54):
Among current G4 airports, which airport would be the closest "parallel" to Paulding/Silver Comet (assuming that G4 will start service there)?:

- 40 miles from a "major" airport that has "flights to everywhere" on a variety of airlines
- On the extreme outer edge of a large metropolitan area that has no other alternative airports
- "Non-leisure" metropolitan area that is within a 6 to 7 hour drive of "leisure" destinations (SFB and PIE)
COS would qualify if you're willing to double the 40-mile limit. It's 40 - okay, 80 - miles from DEN, which is a huge airport with flights to everywhere. COS is on the extreme southern edge of the Front Range mega-metropolitan area. DEN and COS are the only airports in the region with commercial service. Finally, there certainly are many leisure destinations within six or seven hours' driving time.

[Edited 2013-12-24 13:13:51]
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
gizmonc
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Wed Dec 25, 2013 4:57 am

Quoting catiii (Thread starter):
WN has a clear policy. If the armrest doesn't go down or the person 'overflows' the armrest, they must buy a 2nd seat. As the person sitting in the next seat, I appreciate that policy. This could be a case where the small additional width of an A320 seat makes a big difference. Each person is allowed a preference. I personally avoid UA due to a series of experiences with "galley queens."

WN does not require a Customer of Size to purchase the second seat. While that was the policy previous is was admended and all a COS has to do at this point is to stop at Customere Service and ask for the second seat. They ( passenger is NOT required to purchase that seat anymore). However that are times that a Supervisor will ask a passenger if we can block that seat for their safety and they safety of others around them. Most COS passengers were not familiar with the change and did not want to purchase a seat and that is NO LONGER the OPTION.
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Wed Dec 25, 2013 5:29 pm

If they could ever wrestle Dobbins AFB away from the government it would be a natural for a second airport--perfect location but the good people of May-retta might not like it much.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
srbmod
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Wed Dec 25, 2013 8:50 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 76):

If they could ever wrestle Dobbins AFB away from the government it would be a natural for a second airport--perfect location but the good people of May-retta might not like it much.

Too much development surrounding the airport plus too close to ATL traffic patterns (When NAS Atlanta was still open, they had issues with their training areas conflicting with ATL traffic patterns. These issues also affect training sorties for units at Dobbins to an extent as well.). The NIMBY factor would also shout it down.
 
Deltran757
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Wed Dec 25, 2013 10:25 pm

Merry Christmas...Yay!!! My first post. I've been on airliners.net since 2000 and became a member in 2008 and now finally getting it in on some of the action.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 76):

A couple flights a day at Dobbins AFB wouldn't be so bad. Best location for an secondary airport in the Atlanta Metro besides Gwinnett's LZU. Highway accessible is not a issue. And with me living under its flight path, 2-4 commercial flight a day wouldn't hurt any NIMBY's with the current traffic Dobbins receive on a daily basis. when it comes to commercial service, Dobbins should be limited to 10x a day. But Atlanta has a more serious transportation problem that needs to be fixed. Only one can hope. Just my 2 cents
To see the world... One plane at a time
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Wed Dec 25, 2013 10:50 pm

Quoting Deltran757 (Reply 79):
Merry Christmas...Yay!!! My first post. I've been on airliners.net since 2000 and became a member in 2008 and now finally getting it in on some of the action.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 76):
A couple flights a day at Dobbins AFB wouldn't be so bad. Best location for an secondary airport in the Atlanta Metro besides Gwinnett's LZU. Highway accessible is not a issue. And with me living under its flight path, 2-4 commercial flight a day wouldn't hurt any NIMBY's with the current traffic Dobbins receive on a daily basis. when it comes to commercial service, Dobbins should be limited to 10x a day. But Atlanta has a more serious transportation problem that needs to be fixed. Only one can hope. Just my 2 cents

Welcome aboard, friend. And you know our buddies at DL would fight tooth and nail to defend their turf. I am glad that ATL does not have a DAL/DFW type of situation--yet. But it is inevitable. ATL is just about saturated and has limited growth potential. The NIMBY factor in the northern suburbs is tough to ignore--there is a lot of serious money up there. You would have to go fairly far north into what is now farmland to build a new airport.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
luckyone
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Wed Dec 25, 2013 11:24 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 80):
ATL is just about saturated and has limited growth potential.

That is not true. With UA consolidating in T and WN scaling down the former FL operation ATL is about to have a bit more capacity in D. It isn't slot controlled, nor is there any compelling reason for it to be. Also, though it won't happen any time soon, there is ample room between Runways 28 and 27L for what was once termed the South Gates.
 
Deltran757
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:37 pm

RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Wed Dec 25, 2013 11:46 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 80):

Anything can happen in the northern suburbs now that the Atlanta Braves will be building a new stadium up here. I just hope the City of Atlanta and the surrounding areas doesn't continue letting the future get here before they decide to do something.

But back on topic, Delta will make life hard on any one starting service service at Dobbins or Silver Comet Field. Do we need a second airport in the region. Not at the moment but with the city growing bigger each year, it's hard to ignore that fact that ATL will be too congested unless they start more night movements. But there is plenty of day operation with the likes of WN pulling down FL flights Ops next year. Why can't G4 do something like what they are doing at CVG. Would it be direct completion? Only to FLL or LAS. They already fly schedule charter flights to ATL. Just set up shop and let everyone be happy. Lol
To see the world... One plane at a time
 
Cubsrule
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:56 pm

Quoting Deltran757 (Reply 80):
Do we need a second airport in the region. Not at the moment but with the city growing bigger each year, it's hard to ignore that fact that ATL will be too congested unless they start more night movements.

I think the issue--to the extent one exists--is drive time more than airfield congestion at ATL. There are times of the day when it's a faster drive from Athens to GSP than to ATL even though ATL is very much Athens' primary airport.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
milesrich
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:31 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 81):
I think the issue--to the extent one exists--is drive time more than airfield congestion at ATL. There are times of the day when it's a faster drive from Athens to GSP than to ATL even though ATL is very much Athens' primary airport.

Athens is a poor example. There is no limited access highway from Athens to Atlanta. GA 316 is being reconstructed through Lawrenceville, but that highway is only 4 lanes and feeds into the most congested Interstate Highway in the region, I-85 southbound from 316 to I-285 or Spaghetti Junction. Getting to ATL except between 700am and 900 am and 400pm and 600 pm is no problem. And during peak times, you just have to allow a bit more time. But Athens to Silver Comet Field, LOL! That is close to a three drive when there is no traffic, and is about 115 miles.
 
luckyone
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:14 am

Quoting milesrich (Reply 82):
Athens is a poor example. There is no limited access highway from Athens to Atlanta. GA 316 is being reconstructed through Lawrenceville, but that highway is only 4 lanes and feeds into the most congested Interstate Highway in the region, I-85 southbound from 316 to I-285 or Spaghetti Junction. Getting to ATL except between 700am and 900 am and 400pm and 600 pm is no problem. And during peak times, you just have to allow a bit more time. But Athens to Silver Comet Field, LOL! That is close to a three drive when there is no traffic, and is about 115 miles.

Thanks for beating me to that. That is not an easy, or direct drive. HWY 29 through Commerce to 85 is two lanes in many parts as it winds through more than a few little towns. Once a month or so in college I would drive from further South in Georgia where I went to school through Athens to Upstate SC where my family has a home. It is not short, it is not quick. And really?? How many people are flying out of Athens to make that a consideration for Atlanta's airport??? The market that the airlines that fly into ATL serve lives in North Fulton, East Cobb, and Gwinnett Counties. While the sprawl in Atlanta is indeed massive (unnecessarily so IMHO), gas prices and ever-increasing commute times (have you seen all six lanes of I-85 completely clogged at Spaghetti Junction in rush hour??) have started to push the wealthy demographic back toward the city.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:27 am

Quoting luckyone (Reply 83):
The market that the airlines that fly into ATL serve lives in North Fulton, East Cobb, and Gwinnett Counties. While the sprawl in Atlanta is indeed massive (unnecessarily so IMHO), gas prices and ever-increasing commute times (have you seen all six lanes of I-85 completely clogged at Spaghetti Junction in rush . hour??) have started to push the wealthy demographic back toward the city.

Here's the problem, though. As Atlanta grows, the City can't take an infinite number of people (or of wealthy people), and especially in a place like Atlanta with poor/no regional planning, sprawl is pretty much inevitable. As traffic worsens, getting to ATL will get more difficult for people in a place like Gwinnett County. My point was simply that this phenomenon is more likely than congestion at ATL to lead to desire for a second airport. Of course, Silver Comet isn't the location where that's likely to happen when it does (and to be clear, we are likely talking about 20-30 years down the road).

If you don't like the Athens example, which I used because most folks know where it is, try a place like Braselton. During rush hour, the drive time from there to ATL versus GSP is pretty much a wash; if I were going to Chicago or D.C. from there, I'd likely choose GSP.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
prosa
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:42 am

If RMG had better road access from I-75 it might be a good alternative site, especially suitable for people living north of Atlanta who have the most traffic woes getting to ATL.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
luckyone
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:05 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 84):
If you don't like the Athens example, which I used because most folks know where it is, try a place like Braselton. During rush hour, the drive time from there to ATL versus GSP is pretty much a wash; if I were going to Chicago or D.C. from there, I'd likely choose GSP.

Are you just randomly picking places on a map to throw darts at because they appear midway between the two areas? Have you ever been to these places? GSP is literally twice as far from Braselton as ATL (roughtly 120 miles vs 60 miles). As bad as traffic be it's not THAT bad. Couple that with the fact that if you live in Braselton, there's a 99.9999% chance you work in Atlanta, or closer to Atlanta than Greenville. You may not always have to be at the airport at 9am. You can and do plan your trip to the airport around that, because bear in mind you have to get home from the airport, too. So between people being Atlanta-centric to begin with, their jobs being inside the Perimeter, and the money already being far closer to ATL and moving back than Braselton (a town of less than 10,000 people) again ATL wins. For most people who live in Atlanta, Greenville is the sign you follow to get on I-85N. It's a oft-told joke that nobody ever actually goes to Greenville, you just follow the sign...and I say this as somebody who grew up in Atlanta, and also lived on the GA/SC state line. I have actually gotten out of my car in the GSP area once in twenty years, and I am not alone.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 84):
Here's the problem, though. As Atlanta grows, the City can't take an infinite number of people (or of wealthy people), and especially in a place like Atlanta with poor/no regional planning, sprawl is pretty much inevitable.

The trends aren't showing that though. Up until the early 2000s new construction was booming up 85 North, where I grew up. That has all but ground to a standstill once gas shot up. Large scale sprawl has stopped about at the Jackson County line. Suburbs closer in like Vinings, Suwanee, and Duluth are seeing a lot of denser townhome construction. People ARE moving back inside the Perimeter, especially young professionals. There are scores of single family houses--and large ones at that, particularly in DeKalb County that are in areas ripe for redevelopment. Trust me. Areas like Decatur and L5P that I knew as ghettos as a child are alive and kicking today. Further South and East of Downtown areas like the Old Fourth Ward which were crack havens in the 70's and 80's are now quite popular. Atlanta still has quite a few rough and tumble areas that can be redeveloped. The sprawl can only get so big before a combination of high gas prices and zoning issues brings people back in. Especially the Boomers' children, who started the whole thing. The Boomer generation was born in the suburbs, and most of them stayed at home until they got married, and immediately bought their own houses. Gas was $0.40/gal. None of that was an option for my generation. The current generation can't afford to do that, and a lot of these sprawling suburbs have very restrictive zoning laws with regards to apartments that as a result are well out of the price range of young professionals who also cannot afford the gas to commute back and forth from where their parents live to where they work. That particular trend isn't unique to Atlanta. Since the early 90's the trend for 20-somethings is to move back in. And a lot of them have stayed, creating vibrant neighborhoods, much denser than was common before. And closer in that before.
 
Deltran757
Posts: 75
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:18 am

That's why I believe dobbins is situated in a perfect location compare to other option or options that's out there. With 75/285 being accessible, you have the likes of Cobb Co., North Fulton Co., Gwinnett Co., and Cherokee Co., supporting a small operation. Sorry, silver comet is way out of the way. But let's see what G4 can do with it.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 81):

The one thing the Atlanta lacks is good and sufficient public transportation. From me being from Bay Area (Vallejo), California, the BART Rail system goes deep within the suburbs (I wouldn't call it suburbs with cities well over 50k in population). The MARTA system is a joke as each county is their own government body. They need to expand the MARTA rail into Cobb and Gwinnett (especially Gwinnett with its population closing in on million resident alone). Also they need P2P rail station. 1-stop from Cobb or Gwinnett to downtown.
To see the world... One plane at a time
 
srbmod
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:27 am

Quoting Deltran757 (Reply 87):

That's why I believe dobbins is situated in a perfect location compare to other option or options that's out there. With 75/285 being accessible, you have the likes of Cobb Co., North Fulton Co., Gwinnett Co., and Cherokee Co., supporting a small operation. Sorry, silver comet is way out of the way. But let's see what G4 can do with it.

Dobbins will never be turned into a commercial airport and will remain a military base for years to come and making it a joint-use facility is not an option since the former NAS Atlanta site has been turned over the Georgia Army National Guard and the Georgia Dept. of Defense. Not to mention what I posted earlier in the thread:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 76):
Too much development surrounding the airport plus too close to ATL traffic patterns (When NAS Atlanta was still open, they had issues with their training areas conflicting with ATL traffic patterns. These issues also affect training sorties for units at Dobbins to an extent as well.). The NIMBY factor would also shout it down.
Quoting luckyone (Reply 86):
Are you just randomly picking places on a map to throw darts at because they appear midway between the two areas? Have you ever been to these places? GSP is literally twice as far from Braselton as ATL (roughtly 120 miles vs 60 miles). As bad as traffic be it's not THAT bad. Couple that with the fact that if you live in Braselton, there's a 99.9999% chance you work in Atlanta, or closer to Atlanta than Greenville. You may not always have to be at the airport at 9am. You can and do plan your trip to the airport around that, because bear in mind you have to get home from the airport, too. So between people being Atlanta-centric to begin with, their jobs being inside the Perimeter, and the money already being far closer to ATL and moving back than Braselton (a town of less than 10,000 people) again ATL wins. For most people who live in Atlanta, Greenville is the sign you follow to get on I-85N. It's a oft-told joke that nobody ever actually goes to Greenville, you just follow the sign...and I say this as somebody who grew up in Atlanta, and also lived on the GA/SC state line. I have actually gotten out of my car in the GSP area once in twenty years, and I am not alone.

Not to mention there are plenty of alternate routes to get to ATL from somewhere like Braselton (For example, GA 124 to US 78 to I-285. Taking 124 to I-20 isn't a good option because I-20 WB starts to back up between Panola and Evans Mill or even to Turner Hill.) While I-85 SB in the mornings can be a mess up in Gwinnett County, it really doesn't back up too badly until you get close to the merge with GA 316. On rare occasions, it may back up to Old Peachtree, but the bulk of the back up is over on GA-316 due to the volume of traffic merging onto I-85 SB. The problem is that much like with I-75 SB in Cobb County, the traffic volume is heavy even at 10 am.
 
luckyone
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:21 pm

Quoting srbmod (Reply 88):

Indeed. Also in the morning rush 285 eastbound (the "Augusta/Macon" direction) is in the opposite direction for much of the drive to ATL. So while I-85 is a parking lot into the city from 316 to down past Spaghetti Junction you can bypass some of that.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:33 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 86):
Are you just randomly picking places on a map to throw darts at because they appear midway between the two areas? Have you ever been to these places?

I'd guess I've been to Braselton more than you have. It's one of my more common destinations in Atlanta since Road Atlanta is there (more or less--you don't have to correct my geography here too). And yes, I know all the back ways to get there.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 86):
The trends aren't showing that though. Up until the early 2000s new construction was booming up 85 North, where I grew up.

Maybe we're talking past each other a little bit. There's no question that infill is popular right now in Atlanta, as it is in most southern cities (older cities like Chicago are facing some challenges with amount and affordability which makes the picture for them somewhat different). I'm not arguing that Atlanta needs a second airport today. There's also no question, assuming Atlanta keeps growing, at some point the infill possibilities will be exhausted (or will become prohibitively expensive). Then, sprawl almost has to continue (and I'd think it will mostly be north). It's at that point that a second airport may start to make more sense.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
luckyone
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:59 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 90):

Considering I grew up 15 minutes from Braselton the number of times you say you've been is irrelevant when you make a statement regarding the ease and preference of GSP. I did a double take as I imagine anyone who actually lives in that area would.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 27, 2013 7:07 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 91):
Considering I grew up 15 minutes from Braselton the number of times you say you've been is irrelevant when you make a statement regarding the ease and preference of GSP.

I wouldn't expect your preferences to be the same. One of the big issues at ATL is the horrendously inconvenient rental car experience, something that is irrelevant to residents. If we look at markets like CSG or MCN, I expect most of the O&D traffic is visitors, not locals.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
harim
Posts: 152
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 1:57 am

RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 27, 2013 7:30 pm

As an FYI, this is likely a lobbying article initiated by a PR firm on behalf of the airport - common practice.

For the economics of Delta flying there, I leave it to the more experience posters on the local market to comment on - my guess it will depend if there is a profitable sizeable increase on feeder traffic.
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:54 pm

Quoting harim (Reply 93):
As an FYI, this is likely a lobbying article initiated by a PR firm on behalf of the airport - common practice.

For the economics of Delta flying there, I leave it to the more experience posters on the local market to comment on - my guess it will depend if there is a profitable sizeable increase on feeder traffi

The airport operator is only planning on bringing in a single airline and it's not Delta. Delta's trying to stop this airport as they view it as a threat to their operations at ATL, which is laughable considering the amount of flights predicted at Silver Comet in a week would be equivalent to something like 2% of what Delta does in a DAY at ATL.
 
luckyone
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Fri Dec 27, 2013 10:58 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 92):

As compared to what other airport? You take a free train that's right by baggage claim to one place. I've done it. It beats most major airports.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 90):
There's no question that infill is popular right now in Atlanta, as it is in most southern cities (older cities like Chicago are facing some challenges with amount and affordability which makes the picture for them somewhat different).

Chicago has plenty of affordable areas. There's an entire mile of State Street in Bronzeville that has literally nothing built on it after the last of the Robert Taylor Homes were demolished in the mid naughties. You are correct in that the North Side neighborhoods of Lincoln Park and the Gold Coast are priced above the average young professional, but the neighborhoods of Uptown and parts of Lakeview are affordable-- I lived there for almost two years alone on student loans, as did many of my medical school friends. Rogers Park, still on the Red Line, has very cheap rents, in the $600s. An Edgewater high rise is easy to find for less than $1,000/month. The "hipsters" are moving into Pilsen and parts of Lawndale where again rents can be hand for $6-700 and down.

[Edited 2013-12-27 15:58:49]
 
Deltran757
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:37 pm

RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:02 am

Quoting srbmod (Reply 94):

I think Delta is looking at the bigger picture here if G4 started operations at Silver Comet. Going after O&D is G4 model. They will certainly grab a market sure in the Cobb, Douglas, and the surrounding counties located in a 20 mile radius or even more. I can see G4 thinking out side the box and with making Silver Comet a focus city like AZA. Atlanta in general see's a huge amount of tourist each week.

Starting off with 2-4 weekly flights will grow to 12-16 weekly flight easily within a year. And that can double in a 2 or so year time frame. Infrastructure around the airport will be build to accommodate the capacity that the airport will see.

Can that be the reason why Delta is concern?
To see the world... One plane at a time
 
luckyone
Posts: 3968
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:11 am

Quoting Deltran757 (Reply 96):
Can that be the reason why Delta is concern?

Delta, like any business is protecting it's turf. I would imagine that their primary concern is not having to bear the brunt of the costs of ATL that they don't use. If a second airport were to open up, any potential new airlines servicing Atlanta would have an option. It's unlikely that G4 would affect Delta's bottom line in terms of the passengers, but that the carriers who would've come into the available space at ATL are now at Silver Comet. That's one less airline to share the costs with.

My personal opinion as an Atlanta native is that few airports are as convenient in ANY metro area as ATL is to the residents of the metro Atlanta area. With Delta headquartered in Atlanta, their voice will also be quite loud and clear.
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Sat Dec 28, 2013 1:40 pm

We are all talking about looking north--how about looking south? Macon has a fine airport--not much residential housing around it--mostly light industrial.
as far as northern growth, I know people that drive the distance to GSP from Alpharetta and other northern suburbs to avoid the traffic mess around ATL. That might be an avenue to explore.
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luckyone
Posts: 3968
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

RE: WSJ: Why Is Delta Afraid Of This Tiny Airport

Sat Dec 28, 2013 2:26 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 99):
We are all talking about looking north--how about looking south? Macon has a fine airport--not much residential housing around it--mostly light industrial.

Except if you're looking to avoid traffic then Macon is in the wrong direction for most of the people, unless you already live South in which case you don't have to drive through the city to get to the airport. This would probably explain why Macon has lost service over the years. If you live North (which most do) You have to drive through it...and past ATL and then another 45 minutes to an hour to get to MCN. You either take I-75 through downtown right past the airport, or you take 285 around town. If you're coming from the West side of town you drive right past ATL to get to 75S. If you take 285 from the East side you also pass ATL getting to 75, or you take 675 to 75, which is maybe five miles from the airport. Again, ATL's location is the biggest detractor from a second airport. IMHO the best location for a second airport is somewhere in Forsyth or Hall County between the major North side population centers. The problem is there's a big lake right there. Any other location is going to be inconvenient for the majority of the metro area, which beyond Delta's objections is the main reason we haven't seen a second airport in ATL.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 99):
as far as northern growth, I know people that drive the distance to GSP from Alpharetta and other northern suburbs to avoid the traffic mess around ATL. That might be an avenue to explore.

That's interesting. I'm curious how many people actually do that. I'd be surprised if it was many looking at the traffic numbers of ATL vs. GSP. GSP's biggest destination is ATL--people connecting with Delta, almost twice as many as connect in CLT with US Airways. ~ 45 minutes vs. 2.5 hours and 4x the mileage and gas each way. If traffic such a concern, be aware it can take 45 minutes just to get to I-85N in that dreaded traffic from Alpharetta. By which time you're either at, or almost at the airport. I'd say that's a colossal waste of time, but hey it's not my time.

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