Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:31 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 48):
The market place obviously.

In Eagle's case, it's not a free market. The only partner they can have is AA.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 48):
Until you have your own house in order, you don't go stand in front of the customer begging for work.

The assumption is that Eagle does not have its house in order, but there's no proof that that's the case - the only thing we know is that AA wants lower rates from Eagle. One does not imply the other.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
DDR
Posts: 1685
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:09 pm

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:40 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 44):
Like anyone else, people don't get paid to come and go from work. Its not company choice you decide to live 1 or 5 hours away from your work location.

It is a fine line the airline has to walk in these instances. I know three people (1 pilot and 2 F/A) who were fired for calling in sick because they could not get seats out of HNL back to ATL. They couldn't get out for two days. If they had non-reved back on another airline when they came back they probably could have gotten way with it. Wasn't smart on their part.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3218
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:17 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 48):
Again, I really get tired about this old argument that the big mean company is doing something bad by paying market rates.

They aren't paying the market rates. They pay awful and are looking for more blood in that category. But hey, if that keeps John Q Public from paying more than 35 dollars for his leg from BFE to DFW, then so be it.


-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 24051
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:47 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 52):
They aren't paying the market rates.

You are right - they dont pay market rates - they actually pay above market !

And I am not only speaking about pilots, but in broader terms as Eagle is stuck under a higher cost labor force.
This has always been an achilles heel at AMR as MQ tended to have a more senior career workforce versus typical commuter.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Buddys747
Posts: 310
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:33 am

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:25 pm

LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 23575 posts, RR: 50
Reply 53, posted Mon Dec 23 2013 10:47:32 your local time (19 minutes 58 secs ago) and read 40 times:

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 52):
They aren't paying the market rates.

You are right - they dont pay market rates - they actually pay above market !

And I am not only speaking about pilots, but in broader terms as Eagle is stuck under a higher cost labor force.
This has always been an achilles heel at AMR as MQ tended to have a more senior career workforce versus typical commuter.


Above market? Please. It never ceases to amaze me how some on this forum think pilots or any work group for that matter should make next to nothing and just deal with, god forbid people try to make a decent living.
 
User avatar
mercure1
Posts: 4588
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:46 pm

Quoting Buddys747 (Reply 54):
It never ceases to amaze me how some on this forum think pilots or any work group for that matter should make next to nothing and just deal with, god forbid people try to make a decent living.

No problem with making living, but one needs to understand their place in the world.

In society the market place establishes a values for each job essentially.

At one end might be the fast food worker and the janitor and other end celebrities and top executives.

So people need to walk into careers with their eyes wide open and mindful where they might be on the ladder and understand their pay will be based on this broader societal valuation.

So if AA Eagle worker needs more money to make the living they desire, they are probably in the wrong job if not industry.

The company needs to make a living also and cant if it pays employees out of line with competitors.

Might be cruel, but its how open market works.
mercure f-wtcc
 
Raventech
Posts: 203
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:25 pm

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:00 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 52):

Sorry, but Market Rate =/= Should be payed rate

Market rate is the typical rate for someone working a job, and for the regionals that's not very much because there is a supply of pilots that are willing to work at that rate. In order for the market rate to go up then they would need to run out of people willing to work at that low rate and raise it to attract those who want to do that job but won't work for the lower rate. Unfortunately that probably won't happen until all the regionals are out of people willing to work for them.
 
Buddys747
Posts: 310
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:33 am

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:07 am

Open market is a loose term, I would call it the manipulated open market controlled by those that have power and wealth, not the common man. Otherwise executives wouldn't make what they do, when a company needs to 'cut' costs. Many Americans think upper management make too much , yet you don't see salaries going down, because executives at this company are on the board of another company and so on.
There needs to be a happy medium yet it's always thrown on the backs of those who perform the work and not the ones that are overhead cost.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Tue Dec 24, 2013 1:20 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 53):
You are right - they dont pay market rates - they actually pay above market !

The average pay rates for Eagle FOs over 12 years is actually lower than either Skywest or Expressjet (all three of them cap FO pay at year 8 rates, so years 9-12 are paid the same rate as year 8).

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 53):
This has always been an achilles heel at AMR as MQ tended to have a more senior career workforce versus typical commuter.

Which would be the case no matter what the payscale was - more senior employees are going to get paid more. That doesn't mean they're overpaid relative to their peers just because their peers are younger.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
norcal
Posts: 1507
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 1:44 am

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Tue Dec 24, 2013 1:35 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 31):
But for now, why ignore compelling deals being offered by major competitors like Skywest, Republic, etc. It be foolish not to consider them.

SkyWest has the best compensated pilots in the regional airline industry. Eagle's previous concessions brought them inline with RAH and set a precedent to lower costs further over time with automatic longevity adjustments. Eagle had a clause in their bankruptcy contract that their longevity costs will be adjusted to match the 2 most competitive (read cheapest) regionals in the industry. Your point is invalid

This is greed, plain and simple. Management knows that they are having an increasingly difficult time staffing this regional flying which is why they are trying to drive costs as low as possible and lock it in as long as possible before the pendulum fully swings in the pilots favor.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 33):
From a legality standpoint, they do have a point. Any kind of jumpseating, you are required crew member. You can't be sick and be a required crewmember. It still sucks, but there is a legal side to it.

If they ride in the back (as most pilots do) there is no safety issue.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 37):
Its the employees perogative if they they live clear cross country. In previous life, I lived in CA, but worked out of NY and MIA for 4-years, that was my choice to commute.

So I'm sorry, but I don't see the logic, nor do I know any company that must cover their employees hotel cost when back at base.
Quoting mercure1 (Reply 44):
From what I see in the industry its a choice employees embark on.

You might have a point if there was actually some stability in the regional airline industry however these companies open and close bases on a whim.

Eagle, which had been a very stable regional, has lost 2 crew bases and is in the process of severely downsizing (possibly eliminating) another in the last 2 year. Are the employees supposed to pick up and move their families every time mainline decides to shift flying? Delta has opened and closed bases in 6 months.

The only way people tolerate this type of working environment is because they can commute. If management keeps a policy like this and makes life even more crappy for regional pilots then people will stop showing up (as is already happening).


Furthermore all this does is encourage people to call out sick for an trip if they suspect they are coming down with something Why would a pilot risk commuting in they suspect they are coming down with something? They could get stuck in base, away from home, away from their doctor and their family, and paying out of pocket for a hotel room. For someone making $1200 a month after taxes, buying hotel rooms isn't an option, especially when they have a mountain of flight debt to pay off.

So now the airline might have to deal with covering 4 days worth of flying rather than just 1 or 2. That further stretches reserves and could cause delays and cancellations. It is a stupid policy that is going to back fire in their face and cost way more money than they are trying to save.

So many cost cutting measures and policies that regional airlines take aren't vetted by people with actual operational knowledge but rather by accountants who don't know a thing about how flight operations work.

This is why regional airlines are consistently the worse at dealing with deicing problems (I'm sure many here have sat for hours waiting on gates or deicing trucks) or waiting on baggage, or running out of catering supplies, waiting on fuel trucks, waiting on mx, waiting on crews, etc. These regionals try and run everything with a skeleton crew and resources sufficient enough if you assume nothing is going to go wrong. It's an airline, something always goes wrong.

I'm sure I speak for a lot of regional employees (and from what I see it doesn't appear to have changed at all since I left) when I say that regional airline management wastes tens of millions of dollars a year in completely avoidable problems and then demands that employees take concessions to subsidize their incompetence. Eagle management should get their own house in order and run a consistently high performing operation before demanding anymore givebacks from employees.

Quoting superjeff (Reply 43):
The majors fly on miniscule margins, and passengers have learned to treat the airlines' product as a commodity.

Airlines have very healthy margins and record profits right now.
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 2493
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Tue Dec 24, 2013 3:50 pm

Take care of your people and your people will take care of you... MQ should learn the meaning to this very quickly or else they will be probably not be a MQ any longer
 
Shawn Patrick
Posts: 2465
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2000 7:30 am

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Tue Dec 24, 2013 4:05 pm

Quoting norcal (Reply 59):
regional airline management wastes tens of millions of dollars a year in completely avoidable problems and then demands that employees take concessions to subsidize their incompetence.

Norcal gets it.

The major airlines are posting near-to-record profits this past year. DL and UA increased their pilot compensation DRAMATICALLY this year, with AA set to trend higher each coming year. And yet the lowest paid segment of 121 pilots - the regional airlines - are being asked to take paycuts. And this is solely due to the major airlines' hand in the commoditization of regional airline feed.

BTW, Compass airlines just completed a new pilot agreement that includes pilot pay increases.

XJT's management has been telling their pilots that XJT is much more expensive even than MQ. They lumped MQ in with PSA and Pinnacle in terms of their total costs.

Things that make you go HMM.
 
oc2dc
Posts: 469
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:38 am

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:22 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 44):
Do AA Eagle pilot employees get paid to commute home? Is it part of their duty assignment?

Definitely not. . . And if they are based in DFW and live in MIA, during recurrent training they have to pay for their own hotel in DFW...
I'm not complaining, I'm critiquing...
 
tyler81190
Posts: 720
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:28 am

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:41 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 46):
In many cases, its a choice forced upon them, by the lack of pay. You can't live in NYC on regional FO pay, no way.

Totally!

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 49):
People knew what the reality was when they signed on the dotted line.

Except in the cases where after 9/11 pilots took massive pay cuts... Also I bet they didn't count on losing their retirement. No airline tells a prospective employee during the hiring process that "by the way, we plan on going bankrupt and you will take a 50% pay cut!"

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 55):
At one end might be the fast food worker and the janitor

And Right there in with the Fast Food workers and Janitors salary is where most regional pilots fall. Just think about that next time you get on a plane, that the guy up front may only be making as much as the guy flipping burgers at McDonald's.
 
Wayfarer515
Posts: 724
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:56 pm

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:51 am

Reading these threads about regional carriers in USA just make me think there is something terribly wrong with the airline industry in the USA and probably Canada as well.

The following points come to mind that are making this situation unsustainable:

1) Regional jets doing short hops destined for turboprops. If passengers want cheap fares, then they get cheap turboprop service for short distance flights. If passengers want to fly jets on these short hauls then they should pay more, you either get low fares or jet service, but you cannot have both.
2) The infamous seat limit for regional carriers, and in a much broader sense the pilot's unions deciding what is a regional jet and what is a normal airliner. Of course the CASM figures for regional carriers are going to be awful if they are limited to 70-pax jets, this limit should be raised to 100-pax at least, reduce the number of frequencies which just add up to the cost, and send the pilot unions to hell. As a matter of fact, this difference between regional jets and airliners should just disappear, flying an airplane should be paid upon the responsibility it involves and not based on the amount of people you are carrying. For example, I read that in Aeroflot many of the ex IL-96 pilots have been retrained to fly the SSJ100, some others come from A319's or A320's, you are not considered a 2nd class pilot for flying a smaller plane and they get to keep their same salaries and benefits. Why should they be paid any less?
3) Students paying ludicrous amounts of $$$ for becoming a pilot and then expect them to earn a miserable salary, in any other industry if you get high level education you expect and are entitled to high wages, why should it be any different in this industry?
3) If I were in the position of USA's RJ's pilots, I would find a way to get a job outside of the USA and endure this sacrifice for some time, once the massive exodus begins the carriers will be forced to immediately raise their wages. About 8 years ago some "smart" consultant in TACA tried to implement these kinds of measures in which they started to cut benefits to the pilots. In less than a year they had an average of 5 pilots per month leaving the company, at some point they even had problems completing the schedule and a bunch of pilots exceeding the monthly hours. Eventually, they had to raise the wages and provide even more benefits to keep them at home. I know this sounds difficult but there's a lot of markets opening, for example Russia is about to pass a law to let foreign pilots operate CRJ's and EMB types since they are already suffering a shortage of local pilots, even to the point of considering requesting the Russian air force pilots to work part time for the airlines.
4) Last but not least, if the sh*t will hit the fan anyway, I would go on strike.

God forbids, but if this situation continues as it is right now a LAM TM-470 scenario is not to be unexpected. Even in the Central American market an ATR42 FO is earning no less than 1300USD with a cost of living much lower than that of the USA, and btw you get all the commutes you want and don't even have to worry about this kind of crap.

Somebody ought to make a stand, and better do it while it still hurts them.
 
bostonmike
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:08 pm

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Sat Dec 28, 2013 5:55 pm

If the data is correct that over 50% of domestic flying in the US is done by regional aircraft, the majors clearly are united in driving that cost down. In order to successfully complete the recent round of mergers, promises were made to pilot groups to increase wages and improve working conditions. While increasing domestic flying with larger regional aircraft, the majors appear to also trying to reduce that cost.

American Eagle pilots are being "whipsawed" as are the other regionals. Clearly ALPA has no interest in defending the pilot profession at the regional level.

"Friday December 20th, 2013

The path forward

Hello New York –

Today the MEC sent an email detailing management’s demands for concessions. I urge you to review the email. In case you missed it, I’ve appended it to this email. Similarly, I’ve attached a communication from our incoming President Pedro Fabergas.

Apparently, we didn’t give sufficient concessions during bankruptcy. Management has long held the belief that you and I are overpaid, and our brothers and sisters at PSA validated those thoughts when they lowered the Regional bar even further without even being under direct duress. Management is now emboldened to try and replicate their beatdown of PSA elsewhere. If not here at Eagle, then somewhere else. I have no doubt that many small regional carriers will raise their hands and ask for the opportunity to provide concessions to AAG partly because ALPA has constantly preached we have no leverage and ALPA is hesitant to arrest the “every man for himself” mentality that pervades this profession.

Management beat up a small carrier into mimicking deals struck at bankrupt airlines like Pinnacle and now think that should be the model for everyone going forward. The 3000 pilots of Eagle, plus the 8000 pilots of Skywest, plus the 3000 RAH pilots must now all follow what the 500 did at PSA. Or else.

While in bankruptcy, we here at AMR pulled together in a “it’s us versus Wall Street” mentality that saw you give amazing dependability and operational excellence to our fledgeling operation. In bankruptcy, AMR owned their mistakes of the past and provided a path forward for Eagle pilots that required management to perform as promised. USAir management has no such loyalty, and has indicated in quite a frank fashion that they are the ruthless WalMart of the air and will shop our flying to the lowest bidder, even if such bidder has no realistic chance of actually providing a good product.

Throughout bankruptcy — for the past two years — you provided your all to this company. You fought severe emotional drain and uncertainty, and you brought the planes in safely and on time. You worked miracles and went the extra mile when necessary to keep Eagle a bright shining star in the industry. In fact, you did such a good job that management took your name and plastered it on aircraft belonging to other workgroups in the hopes that passengers wouldn’t notice it wasn’t you flying.

And now you are being told you cost too much again.

Throughout the upcoming weeks and months, I urge you remember that management thinks you and I are worth less. We, and our efforts, are worth less. We can be replaced by somebody else willing to fly those planes for less. Please remember that as you go about your incredibly complex and difficult tasks. When things go wrong, when you must fix someone else’s mistake, or anytime you have to go the extra mile or work a miracle, remember that you are worth less to this new management.

Over the Christmas and New Years week, Ray, Me and the MEC will work to craft a response that enhances the career prospects of Eagle pilots while minimizing the damage. But I’m not confident of our prospects. USAir is primarily interested in validating PSA’s deal, and the only way to do that is to force another (preferable larger) player to accept the same terms. Are you willing? Please send your thoughts on the path forward to us, and the entire MEC.

Regards,

Sam & Ray"
 
tyler81190
Posts: 720
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:28 am

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:19 am

Quoting Wayfarer515 (Reply 64):
The following points come to mind that are making this situation unsustainable:

1) Regional jets doing short hops destined for turboprops. If passengers want cheap fares, then they get cheap turboprop service for short distance flights. If passengers want to fly jets on these short hauls then they should pay more, you either get low fares or jet service, but you cannot have both.
2) The infamous seat limit for regional carriers, and in a much broader sense the pilot's unions deciding what is a regional jet and what is a normal airliner. Of course the CASM figures for regional carriers are going to be awful if they are limited to 70-pax jets, this limit should be raised to 100-pax at least, reduce the number of frequencies which just add up to the cost, and send the pilot unions to hell. As a matter of fact, this difference between regional jets and airliners should just disappear, flying an airplane should be paid upon the responsibility it involves and not based on the amount of people you are carrying. For example, I read that in Aeroflot many of the ex IL-96 pilots have been retrained to fly the SSJ100, some others come from A319's or A320's, you are not considered a 2nd class pilot for flying a smaller plane and they get to keep their same salaries and benefits. Why should they be paid any less?
3) Students paying ludicrous amounts of $$$ for becoming a pilot and then expect them to earn a miserable salary, in any other industry if you get high level education you expect and are entitled to high wages, why should it be any different in this industry?
3) If I were in the position of USA's RJ's pilots, I would find a way to get a job outside of the USA and endure this sacrifice for some time, once the massive exodus begins the carriers will be forced to immediately raise their wages. About 8 years ago some "smart" consultant in TACA tried to implement these kinds of measures in which they started to cut benefits to the pilots. In less than a year they had an average of 5 pilots per month leaving the company, at some point they even had problems completing the schedule and a bunch of pilots exceeding the monthly hours. Eventually, they had to raise the wages and provide even more benefits to keep them at home. I know this sounds difficult but there's a lot of markets opening, for example Russia is about to pass a law to let foreign pilots operate CRJ's and EMB types since they are already suffering a shortage of local pilots, even to the point of considering requesting the Russian air force pilots to work part time for the airlines.
4) Last but not least, if the sh*t will hit the fan anyway, I would go on strike.

God forbids, but if this situation continues as it is right now a LAM TM-470 scenario is not to be unexpected. Even in the Central American market an ATR42 FO is earning no less than 1300USD with a cost of living much lower than that of the USA, and btw you get all the commutes you want and don't even have to worry about this kind of crap.

Somebody ought to make a stand, and better do it while it still hurts them.

THIS IS THE BEST WAY OF PUTTING IT!!!!!!


I honestly believe AAG will close MQ in a matter of a few years, and I hope to God I am wrong. But the way they keep beating them up, makes me believe otherwise. I think the only way to really get something done is to do something similar to what the AA Connection pilots did after the ATR crash, slightly tweaked. They should stand in the departure halls, handing out flyer about how much their pilots are actually making, how many hours they have been flying in the day, how short the rest period is, and if they qualify for welfare or not. It really sounds harsh, but I think if the public knew about this little black secret of the industry things may start to change.

As to point 3, I completely agree. I was one of those students who just decided to give up on that dream after my commercial rating. I sat down and calculated how much the remaining training would cost, and looked at what airlines were paying. I finally came to the sad conclusion that the extra $400,000 it would cost me at bare bottom prices to be qualified to INTERVIEW for a regional, I would be on food stamps and unable to pay rent. Not to mention paying back the student loans to the tune of $600+/MONTH.

Something has to give, and I think a regional wide strike may just do it. If the pilots of many RJ carriers were to strike at once, it would send a loud and clear message. Of course that could nearly bankrupt many carriers, and that would cause many other problems for employees. The other option is to let the older generation of pilots retire in masse and have no one to fill the spots.

Side note on EV it seems they are already running so short at the end of december, there are nearly 30 trips with no FO or CA. I can see problems arising...
 
tyler81190
Posts: 720
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:28 am

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:34 am

FYI... from the Dallas news, seems AA has given an ultimatum to MQ:

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...with-american-eagle-airlines.html/
Basically saying if the concessions don't go through they will shut down MQ quickly.
 
silentbob
Posts: 1586
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:26 pm

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:11 am

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 67):
Basically saying if the concessions don't go through they will shut down MQ quickly.

It will be interesting to see who wins this game of "chicken"
 
norcal
Posts: 1507
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 1:44 am

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:25 pm

AAG will win the battle, but they'll lose the war. There aren't enough pilots at regions to cover Eagle's flying. It is a much larger operation than Comair.

There will be many eager regional managements willing to take on the flying, but it will end up a mess much like the RAH Q-400 flying for United.


There might also be some legal ramifications for AAG as well. AMR management went before a judge and said American Eagle would have 60% of AMR flying during the approval process for the RAH E-175 flying. That was done under oath and as part of the court approved plan. It's probably a long shot but it's better than nothing for Eagle pilots to fight their greedy management.

There is also their furlough protection clause which protects 95% of the pilots at Eagle in the event of a merger. US Airways management inherited this, just like they inherited all the other legally binding labor contracts in the merger. They will probably disregard this as well but it could present a financial liability and provide a soft landing for the eagle pilots in the event of a shutdown.

Airline management routinely disregards contracts and from what I've heard it appears that the new bankruptcy TA is being largely ignored as Eagle management does whatever they want. Apparently, there are a lot of outstanding grievances over pretty cut and dry violations by the company.

When Eagle management doesn't live up to basic parts of the current agreement it's no wonder why Eagle pilots don't trust management to live up to this new deal. After all what actually keeps them from honoring the 60 E-175s when they don't honor provisions of the current deal?
 
Goldenshield
Posts: 5019
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 3:45 pm

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:55 pm

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 63):
And Right there in with the Fast Food workers and Janitors salary is where most regional pilots fall. Just think about that next time you get on a plane, that the guy up front may only be making as much as the guy flipping burgers at McDonald's.

Uhh, no. Just because the first year or two's pay of being a first officer isn't "good" to some people doesn't mean that the vast majority of the pilots flying are ALSO earning that wage. Please, do some research before you post.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 5602
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Sun Dec 29, 2013 2:14 pm

As a former Eagle pilot to current Eagle pilots:

When I jumpseat on your airline, I see an airline that has become young pilots starting out and older pilots riding it out. The middle has been gutted...for good reason.

The good news, you both need little time to accomplish your goals.

Whether you sign this agreement or not, you likely have 5 years. They took your name, they are giving you few (if any) new planes, your aircraft are being retired, and they are morphing the rest of the company into a ground services company that will exist beyond the airline.

Think long and hard before you go down this road. Forget taking a stand. The company doesn't care. And you will not effect change in the regional industry.

Do the math...do it for 5 years.

They won't shut you down tomorrow, no matter what you do.
 
Wayfarer515
Posts: 724
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:56 pm

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Sun Dec 29, 2013 2:42 pm

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 70):
Uhh, no. Just because the first year or two's pay of being a first officer isn't "good" to some people doesn't mean that the vast majority of the pilots flying are ALSO earning that wage. Please, do some research before you post.

Sorry, but you are totally missing the point here. If you go out to Africa, anywhere in Latin America, or any of the hell holes in the Middle East any 1st year F/O is earning much more than its USA RJ-stigmatized, unionized equivalent.

They fly the same equipment, have the same god damn responsibilities, etc. but with a very big difference, the USA's cost of living is much higher, and from what I've read in here American pilots have to incur in a 400K USD debt to obtain their license, a license that elsewhere would have cost him/her no more than 100K USD or 200K USD at most, add to that his union fee for an association that instead of helping has dedicated to screw them up and backstabbing them. So in my book yes, they definitely need to earn more than any BK flipper from year one.

In economics, the concept of salary is directly associated to the labor cost, that means that low salaries imply a cheap labor cost, e.g. Chinese manufacturing is cheap because its labor cost is cheap. Don't tell me that in the case of small airline pilots the USA's labor cost is the cheapest around the world, even cheaper than Chinese, African, Latin American, etc. That would be a first, and surely the only industry in which American labor cost is the lowest in the world, things that make you go hmm...

Welcome to the 21st Century slavery, where you don't get paid what you ought to be paid according to skill, training and craftsmanship, you get paid what your lords in the form of management and pilot's associations negotiate what you get paid.
 
Goldenshield
Posts: 5019
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 3:45 pm

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:05 pm

Quoting Wayfarer515 (Reply 72):
Sorry, but you are totally missing the point here.

Am I? Did you at at time in that post see me talk about those countries? No, because they're irrelevant. Nice, but irrelevant.

[Edited 2013-12-29 07:20:42]
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
Wayfarer515
Posts: 724
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:56 pm

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:30 pm

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 73):

Am I? Did you at at time in that post see me talk about those countries? No, because they're irrelevant.

They're irrelevant only if you are shortsighted enough( to say it nicely) or have a specific interest to ignore it, which now I am in no doubt you actually do. So I am not wasting more time in discussing something with a party of interest here, since there is no argument from your part whatsoever, just sheer denial.
 
Goldenshield
Posts: 5019
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 3:45 pm

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:59 pm

Quoting Wayfarer515 (Reply 74):
They're irrelevant only if you are shortsighted enough( to say it nicely) or have a specific interest to ignore it, which now I am in no doubt you actually do. So I am not wasting more time in discussing something with a party of interest here, since there is no argument from your part whatsoever, just sheer denial.

Excuse me, but this thread is about a U.S. carrier, NOT a Honduran, Nicagaruan, etc., carrier. If a U.S. pilot wants to deal with flying in those countries to get a "bigger" paycheck, then great, but to me, it sounds like you're trying to recruit pilots for the airlines in that area, and frankly, if I were flying down there, I'd want more money, too.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
Wayfarer515
Posts: 724
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:56 pm

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:02 pm

Unfortunately I am in no position to recruit American pilots, but if I did I'd do it without a doubt, who would not like cheap, underpaid, semi-proletariat labor? Just ask the USA carriers...after all that's what they're doing up there don't they? Actually, that's what corporate America is doing everywhere.

I am sure if they could hire cheap Asian or Latin American pilots they'd do it immediately, but since corporate America cannot take their jobs outside, they have taken the sweat shops in. This is also probably the only industry in the USA in which foreign labor would actually be more expensive, how can that be so?

I have no personal interest whatsoever in this matter, I just hate to see people being treaded on, especially those related to this industry.

I do think the RJ pilots share some blame here, don't get me wrong, but what the carriers are doing to them is just outrageous. If running a regional carrier was so unprofitable as they are trying to portray it, then its better just to shut them down. They just want to milk the cow a bit more, no excuses here.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:51 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 71):
Whether you sign this agreement or not, you likely have 5 years.

Then why not reject the agreement and spend those five years (which I agree is a reasonable time frame to shut down the company, maybe they could do it a bit sooner than that but not much) at the higher payscales that are more appropriate?

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 71):
Think long and hard before you go down this road. Forget taking a stand. The company doesn't care. And you will not effect change in the regional industry.

They definitely won't if they take the agreement. On the other hand, if they don't take the agreement, they might. In light of the fact that they'd be gone anyway in five years, I see no downside to trying.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 71):
Do the math...do it for 5 years.


At least one of which will be spent living under a pay cap. Not a very attractive proposition if you ask me.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Goldenshield
Posts: 5019
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 3:45 pm

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:54 pm

Quoting Wayfarer515 (Reply 76):
I do think the RJ pilots share some blame here, don't get me wrong, but what the carriers are doing to them is just outrageous. If running a regional carrier was so unprofitable as they are trying to portray it, then its better just to shut them down. They just want to milk the cow a bit more, no excuses here.

Yes, the pilots are accepting it, on the basis that they will eventually move on to the majors, but certain things slowed down that transition, and the majors didn't hire for a long time.

I understand what you're saying about costs, but the main issue here is not whether they are profitable or not, but whether they can keep their costs in line to retain flying AND make a profit. While there has been speculation that a few contracts were bid below cost (and thus subsidized by other parts of the operation,) in general, the regionals are profitable, even if the margins are razor-thin. The matter at hand is: how much profit do they want to make, and how are you going to get to that price-point. The in-flux of a few new regional airlines over the past decade has eroded any profits that regionals used to make because their costs are so low, which means that the "legacy" regionals have had to match or better to retain what they have.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
KD5MDK
Posts: 818
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:05 am

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Sun Dec 29, 2013 7:08 pm

If MQ shut down over 2 years, would there be enough additional pilots at the other carriers to absorb the capacity?
 
JA
Posts: 212
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 9:25 am

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:06 pm

Theoretically, yes. As in, there are physically enough people (including the displaced MQ pilots) to staff the planes.

However, the pay scale currently in place could lead to a shortage. There are a number of Comair pilots who decided to stop flying and I am guessing that a number of MQ pilots would do the same.
 
bostonmike
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:08 pm

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:16 pm

I guess, in any form of capitalism, the market establishes the rate. In this case the "rate" has been established by Delta buying Pinnacle out of bankruptcy, renaming it and setting the cost basis as the lowest in the industry. Delta is now demanding all its other feeder carriers match Endeavor's CPA or slowly be replaced. It's actually quite a brilliant business model. Don't know if it will work, but it's the game of the day. Managers of all the other regionals are telling their employees they must lower their costs to match Endeavor's or lose flying.

One "possible" solution is the merging of several regional airlines into something that has the power of scale. I say possible because the majors could rethink outsourcing regional sized aircraft and bring it in house. Long-term it would drive up pilot wages, because ALPA and APA would then have to negotiate for their wages.

One of the real losers in this outlook is smaller cities who depend on the business connections provided by regional airlines.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3218
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:40 pm

Quoting BostonMike (Reply 81):
Long-term it would drive up pilot wages, because ALPA and APA would then have to negotiate for their wages.

One of the biggest obstacles to regional pilots getting the money they deserve is ALPA. While they are represented by ALPA, ALPA really only cares about the majors. They don't have the regional pilots interests at heart. So, perhaps the regional pilots will wise up and vote ALPA out of the picture.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:19 am

Quoting KD5MDK (Reply 79):
If MQ shut down over 2 years, would there be enough additional pilots at the other carriers to absorb the capacity?

No. MQ is huge, and you don't replace that much capacity without more pilots. The assumption is that the MQ pilots will go to other regionals, but since the regionals have been having trouble filling classes anyway, that's no certainty.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
JA
Posts: 212
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 9:25 am

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:38 am

The flip side of the current market rate is more bankruptcies. If a regional takes a deal that it cannot fund, it will go out of business. Many majors have inserted "most favored nation" clauses to match deals made with other majors DURING the contract term. This concept of using UA to fund DL (as an example) ends when UA finds out what the DL rate is and says "give us that rate". It could also end when the larger regionals say enough is enough. Skywest could simply say "we can't fly at that rate" and if another large regional joins them, the game ends.

MQ is not able to do this yet because it is a wholly owned. If that changes, then this could become a whole different story.
 
User avatar
mercure1
Posts: 4588
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:10 pm

I have suggestion for US regional carriers.

They should create venture like in Europe, where pilots pay airline to fly. In return for training and accumulation of hours, pilots pay airline to work. Both Easyjet and Ryanair have such schemes where FO buy their seats.
http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/...-some-lowcost-flights-9028635.html

This should help reduce crew cost further, and maybe help those that are existing employees earn higher wage (both Ryanair and Easyjet pay well) as you have contingent of reduced cost employees also.
mercure f-wtcc
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3218
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:39 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 85):

I have suggestion for US regional carriers.

You're kidding right? No way in heck will that fly in the US. We already spend upward of 75,000USD to get commercially rated, then have to now venture around until we get to the point we can hold an ATP prior to working in 121 now. Then you want us to pay to play there too. Get out.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Mon Dec 30, 2013 6:22 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 85):
I have suggestion for US regional carriers.

They should create venture like in Europe, where pilots pay airline to fly. In return for training and accumulation of hours, pilots pay airline to work.

Yeah, that's not happening. If I work for a company, I expect to get paid. Not the other way around.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 24051
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Mon Dec 30, 2013 6:32 pm

Sounds like a variation of the 3-5 year training bonds some airlines employ. The company fronts the money and gets you trained, and you spend the next few years paying that back.

Frankly its not that bizarre a concept.

We already have B or C scales in the industry, so why not utilize a work-training work scheme for people to build their hours. Anyhow, folks like ALPA have made it clear regional's are the training arena where people pay their dues before joining the big boys so being afforded a controlled venue to build your hours under direct airline employment could be a win-win.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
bostonmike
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:08 pm

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Mon Dec 30, 2013 6:57 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 88):
folks like ALPA have made it clear regional's are the training arena where people pay their dues before joining the big boys

Someone is going to find an empty seat when the music stops. I spent 32 years in the majors watching the ebb and flow of the career. Bases close and open and sitting reserve for years in New York can certainly effect your paycheck. I had just retired when the bankruptcies began and thought I was safe. Defined benefit plans were not in our names, so those were taken away by the courts and the healthcare benefits disappeared shortly thereafter.

We now have three circles of influence in the industry; Delta, United and American. With capacity control, they can each make a buck. But to be a top dog you have to risk competing on someone else's turf by increasing capacity. And the goal of each CEO is to be the top dog.

The 76 seat regional jets are as sophisticated and challenging as anything I ever flew for the majors. Why shouldn't a regional airline pilot make a decent buck and have a decent lifestyle. No matter what sized jet I am riding on or my family is riding on, I want a professional crew. And they deserve the pay and benefits of a professional.
 
User avatar
RyanairGuru
Posts: 8144
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:11 pm

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 70):
Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 86):
You're kidding right? No way in heck will that fly in the US. We already spend upward of 75,000USD to get commercially rated, then have to now venture around until we get to the point we can hold an ATP prior to working in 121 now. Then you want us to pay to play there too. Get out.

Thats not what he is saying at all. What happens in many other countries is that the airline PAYS the cost of training (from zero hours to right seat) and then the employee pays back the cost once they start working through salary sacrifice.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
Wayfarer515
Posts: 724
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:56 pm

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:36 pm

Quoting BostonMike (Reply 89):
The 76 seat regional jets are as sophisticated and challenging as anything I ever flew for the majors. Why shouldn't a regional airline pilot make a decent buck and have a decent lifestyle. No matter what sized jet I am riding on or my family is riding on, I want a professional crew. And they deserve the pay and benefits of a professional.

This. Something I've always admired about the airline industry is that I've always considered it a truly universal one. That means that an 737 pilot can work anywhere in the world. I would also expect such pilots to be equally qualified to operate the same machinery no matter where they are, so I would also expect accordingly for them to be paid a similar wage.

For me, an airline pilot wage ought to be established not on the size of the plane he flies, but rather on his training, skills and airmanship, and of course some bonuses here and there for those who excel at their work.
As BostonMike said, I want to know the person(s) inside the cockpit are the best professionals money can buy, not the ones that airline management say they can afford because they need to save some cash.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 24051
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:07 pm

Quoting Wayfarer515 (Reply 91):
so I would also expect accordingly for them to be paid a similar wage.

World does not work this way (thankfully).

A doctor in Africa might be just as experienced as one in the US, but the salary levels are totally different.

Each market has its own supply/demand pressure and value placed on jobs along with its own cost inputs which help form pay rates.

Just because one has transportable skills, does not mean those skills have the same value from location to location.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
silentbob
Posts: 1586
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:26 pm

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:16 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 86):
You're kidding right? No way in heck will that fly in the US.

There are several regionals that have had guys essentially buy their seats in the past.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 90):
Thats not what he is saying at all. What happens in many other countries is that the airline PAYS the cost of training (from zero hours to right seat) and then the employee pays back the cost once they start working through salary sacrifice.

Unfortunately, the new ATP requirement for first officers makes this concept extremely unlikely at this time. If an airline was able to get a conditional ATP for pilots that they train up from 0 hours (or whatever level they choose), then I could see it happening. In fact, I believe that should the industry model should have them training and then into a wholly owned regional and then into the mainline carrier itself. However, no airline has been willing to put that kind of investment into the future. They prefer to focus a quarter or two down the road, not a decade.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3218
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:17 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 90):
What happens in many other countries is that the airline PAYS the cost of training (from zero hours to right seat)

Because of the new legislation, thankfully, this is too big of a financial undertaking for any airline to consider. No way is an airline going to pay for someone to go from 0 hours to 1500.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
Wayfarer515
Posts: 724
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:56 pm

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:22 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 92):
World does not work this way (thankfully).

A doctor in Africa might be just as experienced as one in the US, but the salary levels are totally different.

Each market has its own supply/demand pressure and value placed on jobs along with its own cost inputs which help form pay rates.

Hence why I mentioned the exception of the airline industry, AFAIK its the only industry that has more or less similar standards of living across the board, of course some higher than others, but never on the lower end of the social ladder. Well, that was more or less how it used to be, until of course the carrier backed US regionals appeared in the scene, and turned the wages of specialized, highly skilled individuals (pilots) into those of flipping double meat whoppers.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:28 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 88):
Sounds like a variation of the 3-5 year training bonds some airlines employ. The company fronts the money and gets you trained, and you spend the next few years paying that back.

That doesn't happen with the US airlines, because it makes no sense. Training contracts are there to prevent you from taking the training that one company has given you and use it to help another company save on the cost of training you. But in the airline world, if you move from one carrier to another you're still going to have to go through their training program even if you're going to be flying the same type of airplane. Because procedures are different, profiles are different, etc. So the only thing having training from Airline A tells Airline B when I apply there is that they can feel more comfortable with the idea that I'm going to make it through training on time, which has some value but very little in the big scheme of things. In the US airline market, training contracts are used by airlines to retain pilots when they don't want to bother to retain pilots by the more normal technique of making the job conditions such that the pilots want to stay of their own volition.

Besides, remember that the current regional model loves high turnover. They don't want their pilots hanging around too long to go up the salary ladder, so why would they try and force them to?

Quoting BostonMike (Reply 89):
The 76 seat regional jets are as sophisticated and challenging as anything I ever flew for the majors. Why shouldn't a regional airline pilot make a decent buck and have a decent lifestyle. No matter what sized jet I am riding on or my family is riding on, I want a professional crew. And they deserve the pay and benefits of a professional.

   And keep in mind that "decent buck" is not asking for the moon. It's probably somewhere between $35-40k per year for a first-year pilot.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
tyler81190
Posts: 720
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:28 am

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:56 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 77):
Then why not reject the agreement and spend those five years (which I agree is a reasonable time frame to shut down the company, maybe they could do it a bit sooner than that but not much) at the higher payscales that are more appropriate?

I AGREE, THEY HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE...

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 70):
Uhh, no. Just because the first year or two's pay of being a first officer isn't "good" to some people doesn't mean that the vast majority of the pilots flying are ALSO earning that wage. Please, do some research before you post.

the fact the salaries have been cut by 50%+ since 9/11 in ridiculous... same work, now no more pension, and half the pay, and at most carriers, that was across the board, from a first year pilot (if they weren't terminated on 9/11 due to the closure of US airspace) to the topped out pilots.

Quoting KD5MDK (Reply 79):

If MQ shut down over 2 years, would there be enough additional pilots at the other carriers to absorb the capacity?

Sure, if they all wanted to lose more money... They may not make much, but then starting from base pay again would really kill them. I think many would probably either stop flying or move to Corporate/Cargo

Quoting JA (Reply 80):
However, the pay scale currently in place could lead to a shortage. There are a number of Comair pilots who decided to stop flying and I am guessing that a number of MQ pilots would do the same.

Yep...

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 86):
You're kidding right? No way in heck will that fly in the US. We already spend upward of 75,000USD to get commercially rated, then have to now venture around until we get to the point we can hold an ATP prior to working in 121 now. Then you want us to pay to play there too. Get out.

I agree. Plus the legalities of a program like that would be interesting.
 
Goldenshield
Posts: 5019
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 3:45 pm

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Fri Jan 03, 2014 10:12 pm

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 97):
the fact the salaries have been cut by 50%+ since 9/11 in ridiculous...

Only at the majors. At the better paying regionals, salaries did not fall anywhere near as drastically, if they fell at all.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 24051
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: AAG: American Eagle(MQ) Not For Sale

Fri Jan 03, 2014 10:55 pm

Eagle council has authorized its negotiators to enter talks with AA management, and would respond with a counter proposal in the coming days.

Union's counter proposal would focus on 3 areas;
1) Pilot on the seniority list who plans to retire from Eagle should be protected from compensation-related adjustments
2) Group of 824 senior pilots who plan to flow up to American should have those rights protected and enhanced.
3) Junior pilots (to the group of 824 pilots) should have a more comprehensive view of their career progression to American and a more secure picture of their future at Eagle.

Sounds like union has basically already agreed that "compensation-related adjustments" are a forgone conclusion, and simply are seeking better job protection and clarity of the future such as flow to mainline.


http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...tract-proposal-to-management.html/

=
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos