Allegiant Sub Service?

twal10114ever · Tue Dec 24, 2013 8:50 pm

I've noticed a lot of what appears to be sub service flights for Allegiant out of their Florida cities. I'm seeing Falcon Air, Vision and Miami Air operating a lot of Allegiant flights. Are they that short of aircraft? Anybody with ideas as to what is going on?

wjcandee · Tue Dec 24, 2013 8:56 pm

Extra aircraft for Christmas extra sections? Pilot group timing out near end of month?

freakyrat · Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:05 am

Falcon Air ran several flights from SFB to SBN recently.

Boeing757/767 · Wed Dec 25, 2013 2:01 am

I was told by staff at ROA (where noticed a Sun Country aircraft in lieu of usual Allegiant) and they said pilots timing out was one factor.

sunking737 · Wed Dec 25, 2013 4:33 am

SY has been doing sub service from PIE & SFB.

tjwgrr · Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:01 pm

BSK (Miami Air) 738 GRR-SFB yesterday 24-Dec

DeltaRules · Thu Dec 26, 2013 3:08 am

Looks like Ameristar operated LCK-SFB last week. Falcon and Republic (E-190) did LCK-PIE.

[Edited 2013-12-25 19:09:52]

wjcandee · Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:17 am

Extra legroom and seats that recline! Goooooo subservice!

compliancecheck · Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:27 am

Are Allegiant FA's unionized? When they can't operate their own flights does anyone know if the FA's are pay protected? Just curious...

treebeard787 · Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:29 am

Falcon have been operating quite a bit out of IWA recently, several flights yesterday were flown by Falcon MD-80s. Miami Air has flown a few flights for Allegiant not long ago as well.

wjcandee · Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:16 am

Looks like at least Falcon is still covering some flights for AAY again today.

dsuairptman · Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:30 am

G4 is short flight crews due to increased flights and the FAA imposed shutdown of it's training program back in November.

Clipper002 · Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:45 pm

Took a ride down to PGD last Sunday and could not believe the full parking lot and the terminal busting at the seams. No sub-service here yet but there was an extra section to IAG his morning. That gives a total of 9 departures for today at PGD.

Ed

National757 · Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:26 pm

Quoting dsuairptman (Reply 11):
G4 is short flight crews due to increased flights and the FAA imposed shutdown of it's training program back in November.

You're right - it seems Allegiant is experiencing crew shortages lately.

@lynch37 Hi Tim, due to crew availability, the flight has will be re-scheduled.
— Allegiant Travel (@AllegiantTravel) December 27, 2013

async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8">>

Looks like more problems this week - I count 15 re-scheduled flights per Allegiant's website.

Allegiant Air has postponed a number of departing flights from Southwest Florida

NEW: Allegiant delays local flights by a day

I hope they can resolve these operational issues soon.

flyinryan99 · Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:32 pm

Quoting national757 (Reply 13):
I hope they can resolve these operational issues soon.

I would imagine as the schedules are reduced after the busy season.

jjsilver · Tue Dec 31, 2013 5:12 pm

Does anyone have an idea of a very rough cost difference on the flights they do not operate themselves? Would be interesting to estimate how much the operational issues are costing them.

mcg · Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:32 am

Falcon operated BZN - IWA today. Wouldn't the new year take care of the pilot timing out problem?

dsuairptman · Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:06 am

Quoting mcg (Reply 16):

No. Being short crews overall is the issue, not yearly time outs.

Second, with the start of 117, the yearly hours are no longer the issue, it will the 190 hours every 28 consecutive days that will now be the gauge.

hiflyeras · Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:09 am

This is the first I've heard of the FAA shutting down G4's pilot training dept. Does anyone have any more details about that?

mcg · Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:27 am

Quoting dsuairptman (Reply 17):
No. Being short crews overall is the issue, not yearly time outs.

Thanks for the info, why is G4 short crews?

sunking737 · Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:34 pm

SY is doing sub service again tonight from PIE to Harrisburg PA (KMDT). G4 is still having crew issues?? or AOG A/C??

wjcandee · Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:04 pm

Quoting sunking737 (Reply 20):
G4 is still having crew issues??

Yep. Falcon Air is doing flights basically every day for them. The rest of the mentioned carriers (BSK, AJI, SCX, RBY, etc.) seem to fill in irregularly. SCX is doing some flights to IWA today.

a340crew · Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:22 am

Swift Air (Q7) will be taking on a lot of allegiant sub service next month using N421US (737-400) out of Orlando-Sanford

dsuairptman · Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:05 am

Quoting mcg (Reply 19):

Poor long term plan for staffing.

n471wn · Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:12 pm

Quoting dsuairptman (Reply 23):
Poor long term plan for staffing.

And poor long term staffing for aircraft as they have no a/c on order and are shrinking their MD-80 fleet which is down another one this month--odd behavior for an airline that Aviation Week and Space Technology said was the best in the USA and an airline that supposedly has a bright future

nws2002 · Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:31 pm

Quoting n471wn (Reply 24):
And poor long term staffing for aircraft as they have no a/c on order and are shrinking their MD-80 fleet which is down another one this month--odd behavior for an airline that Aviation Week and Space Technology said was the best in the USA and an airline that supposedly has a bright future

I would imagine that G4 plans to build the Airbus fleet the same way they did the MD-80 fleet, by purchasing used airframes as they become available. They don't need to have aircraft on order because their fleet plan as always revovled around purchasing used aircraft. Once the NEO Airbus deliveries start I bet we will see them grab the OEO that come up for sale.

FATFlyer · Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:33 pm

Quoting n471wn (Reply 24):
as they have no a/c on order and are shrinking their MD-80 fleet which is down another one this month

Quoting nws2002 (Reply 25):
I would imagine that G4 plans to build the Airbus fleet the same way they did the MD-80 fleet, by purchasing used airframes as they become available. They don't need to have aircraft on order because their fleet plan as always revovled around purchasing used aircraft. Once the NEO Airbus deliveries start I bet we will see them grab the OEO that come up for sale.

Allegiant is taking additional aircraft. The current fleet plan is for 1 A319 and 2 A320s to be added this year and 6 more A319s to be added in 2015. This slide with the fleet plan is from a Nov 2013 presentation.
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/da...22/allegianttravelcompanyma028.jpg

nws2002 is correct, Allegiant is waiting for others to begin replacing aircraft with NEOs. As many aircraft hit the market they expect to watch prices on used aircraft to plummet. They see the falling prices as being the same thing they took advantage of to quickly grew the MD fleet as prices for that aircraft fell from 2001 to 2005. (The same thing happened to 737 prices from 1997 to 2003 after 737NGs started joining fleets)

wjcandee · Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:16 pm

Quoting n471wn (Reply 24):
they have no a/c on order

Since they don't buy aircraft new from the factory, who cares what they "have on order"? You seem to be demonstrating a lack of understanding how that company's fleet planning works.

And, in any event, Allegiant has announced deals for delivery of *additional* aircraft this year. That doesn't mean that they won't make opportunistic buys of additional aircraft, which they are under no obligation to disclose in advance.

n471wn · Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:12 am

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 27):
Since they don't buy aircraft new from the factory, who cares what they "have on order"? You seem to be demonstrating a lack of understanding how that company's fleet planning works.

And, in any event, Allegiant has announced deals for delivery of *additional* aircraft this year. That doesn't mean that they won't make opportunistic buys of additional aircraft, which they are under no obligation to disclose in advance.

I understand all that for heaven's sake----my point was that even used a/c have some time between carriers and I see nothing planned at this point----if you are saying the Airbus a/c will just come from somewhere then we are probably talking late 2014 or early 2015---which means no growth for this year

wjcandee · Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:06 am

No...

Year over year fleet growth was 6% 2012-2013, 6% 2013-2014, and will be 8% 2014-2015. They are planning on having 10 A319s and 8 A320s by early 2015. And 53 166-seat MD80s. They are not further reducing the MD80s over what they had in 2013. At least as of the last presentation on the subject documented in the slide. They can always vary this, and it's not hard to add aircraft relatively-quickly if it's actually-needed, which it currently-isn't. If there were a sudden potential growth opportunity, as we have seen, if it's that great they can always add subservice. Or pull aircraft from the desert.

Right now, they need to get themselves functioning properly with what they have in the way of aircraft and crew.

[Edited 2014-01-21 18:08:03]

FATFlyer · Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:42 am

Quoting n471wn (Reply 28):
which means no growth for this year

If you open the link in my post #27, the fleet plan as of November was to end 2013 with 68 aircraft and to end 2014 with 72 aircraft.

mls515 · Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:08 pm

I flew PGD-DSM on Falcon Air last week on the 23rd. The aircraft had come in from ABE.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Suresh A. Atapattu

The aircraft used was N120MN. It still looks like this but the titles and tail graphics have been removed. The 8 first class seats were off limits to the regular passengers. A Falcon Air mechanic was seated up there during the flight though.

SXDFC · Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:23 pm

Quoting mls515 (Reply 31):
The aircraft used was N120MN. It still looks like this but the titles and tail graphics have been removed.

N120MN was at ISP this past Friday.

spinkid · Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:52 am

How awesome it would have been if it still had the Haiti Aviation Titles rolling up to the terminal in DSM. I'd have loved to have seen the passengers faces

wjcandee · Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:01 am

Quoting mls515 (Reply 31):
I flew PGD-DSM on Falcon Air last week on the 23rd.

How was the flight? How if at all did the a/c differ from Allegiant? It's a wet-lease, so they have to use Falcon f/as; how was the service? What elements of Allegiant service did the Falcon f/as mimic? (When North American ran its 757s for JetBlue during IROPS over the years, they would, for example, do essentially-similar catering, including the blue chips.)

mls515 · Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:37 am

Falcon FA's. They were friendly and came through with a beverage service. I didn't get anything so I don't know if they charged for drinks or if G4's other regular for-purchase items were available. Obviously the biggest difference from G4 was the cabin layout and the presence of a small first class cabin. The seats were different as one would expect but in a typical economy class density. Overall the flight was fine, except for that it was about an hour and a half late.

freakyrat · Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:04 pm

On a related issue to Allegiant Sub-Service. Allegiant pilots are concerned with safety.

http://teamster.org/news/2014/01/all...-discuss-operating-safety-concerns

flyinryan99 · Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:17 pm

He said/she said....from their 4th quarter earnings report.

http://ir.allegiantair.com/phoenix.z...-newsArticle&ID=1894811&highlight=

Quote:
Full year 2013 CASM ex fuel rose five percent versus last year in part because aircraft utilization declined four percent. CASM ex fuel was also negatively impacted by expenses due to an operational disruption in September, and the FAA shutdown and the subsequent delay in placing A320s into service in December. The A320 delay drove higher expense in aircraft lease rentals as we contracted with other carriers for sub-service to fly scheduled flights, reduced crew productivity and increased expenses to temporarily assign flight crews to bases to support unplanned MD-80 flying in place of planned A320 flying

Quote:
First quarter 2014 CASM ex fuel is expected to increase between 13 and 15 percent due to expenses associated with the delay in training A320 crews resulting from the FAA shutdown and its continued effects and the subsequent delay in placing the A320 on the certificate, lower than planned capacity growth due to the same issue, higher maintenance expense due to substantially more heavy maintenance events scheduled in the quarter, and start-up expenses in two new non airline initiatives which do not generate airline capacity or ASMs. The effects of the A320 delays and non-airline activities are expected to account for 53 percent of the increase in CASM ex fuel for the quarter

Is the training department still shut right now? That's what the pilots are saying in that article.

b747400erf · Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:29 pm

Quoting mls515 (Reply 31):
I flew PGD-DSM on Falcon Air last week on the 23rd. The aircraft had come in from ABE.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Suresh A. Atapattu

The aircraft used was N120MN. It still looks like this but the titles and tail graphics have been removed. The 8 first class seats were off limits to the regular passengers. A Falcon Air mechanic was seated up there during the flight though.

I had to do a double take. I had no idea there were gravel kits on the MD-80 series.

wjcandee · Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:56 pm

OKAY. Now I get it. The Union has been making it sound like "Allegiant's training department" was "shut down" by the FAA due to something bad that the training department as a whole did.

I should have realized that there was sneaky wording afoot, because the FAA would likely be inclined to issue a press release if it were taking enforcement action against Allegiant.

What now appears has happened is that Allegiant filed the necessaries for approval of its lessons for the A320 pilots. Due to sequestration, the FAA got less funding and, of course, was encouraged to make the most painful cuts possible because otherwise nobody would notice sequestration (like there isn't 5% waste that could be cut in every federal program tomorrow, but we wouldn't notice if they fired the supervisor's kid asleep in the back room, so they fire the one guy at the window that serves customers so that the cuts are "painful" -- GENIUS!!). In any event, apparently, as with the DL galley approvals and such, the FAA backburnered a lot of stuff, and give-and-take over program details is taking longer than expected, hence the so-called "Shutdown" of the A320 training program. No A320s means more MD80 flying and the need for subservice.

Now it all makes sense.

yeelep · Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:29 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 38):
I had to do a double take. I had no idea there were gravel kits on the MD-80 series.

Those are water spray deflectors not gravel guards.

dsuairptman · Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:25 pm

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 39):

Not true, the feds did shutdown training after the shut down due to multiple issues with manuals and standards.

YNGguins · Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:18 pm

My main complaint about Allegiant is there lack of an emphasis on top notch customer service. They have all the money in the world. When crap like this happens, charter a damn plane to get people home. Stop talking nonsense or not talking at all.

Their operational issues at PGD are VERY alarming.

Case in point:
www.vindy.com/news/2014/feb/02/passe...t-stranded-in-fla-blast-al/?mobile

phxpilot · Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:46 am

Quoting YNGguins (Reply 42):
Their operational issues at PGD are VERY alarming.

There has been a fair amount of media attention the past few days regarding PGD operations and the cancellations. The cancellations this week were due to weather in PGD, plain and simple.

PGD has a single VOR instrument approach and multiple GPS approaches. G4 is not equipped to do GPS approaches in the MD-80. This left the VOR approach as the only option. The minimums for that approach are 534' ceiling (HAA) and 1sm visibility. For three days the weather precluded successful completion of the VOR approach, often with the ceiling hovering around 400'.

My significant other, a G4 pilot, tried for three days to get into PGD. Day 1 diverted to PIE after a missed approach at PGD. Day 2 Allegiant tried to get the plane to PGD to take care of the PGD passengers. They took off from PIE and had to return to PIE after approach attempts were unsuccessful. Day 3 was a repeat of day 2.

Perhaps I am biased, but I believe Allegiant did everything possible to return the diverted planes to PGD and resume the schedule as quickly as possible. Any failure in that regard was certainly not due to a lack of effort. Certainly some of the previous issues may be due to crew shortages, but the only thing I find alarming is how seemingly overblown this quickly became. Weather delays and cancellations are commonplace; not pleasant to be sure, but an unavoidable part of the business. Witness the thousands of cancellations recently in NYC, ATL, ORD, CLE, etc. That doesn't make the issue in PGD any more palatable, but does add some perspective.

dsuairptman · Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:37 am

Quoting YNGguins (Reply 42):
My main complaint about Allegiant is there lack of an emphasis on top notch customer service. They have all the money in the world. When crap like this happens, charter a damn plane to get people home. Stop talking nonsense or not talking at all.

You get what you pay for. G4 outsources most of thier station ops and those people are dependent on an understaffed department at G4 for guidance/directions whenever there is a lengthy delay, reschedule or cancelation.

Some of these delay issues are outside of G4 control, others could have been mitigated by G4. However, the bottom line is that G4 is concistantly profitable and as long as they make money, they know people are returning to fly them or new customers are there to take their place. Lots of people make the gripe about, "Never flying this airline again," or "complaining," except they keep coming back for the cut rate fare and the fact that they can't get non-stop service or the price on any other airline that may serve their airport of choice. Until that behavior changes, nothing else will in regards to customer service.

wjcandee · Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:11 am

Quoting dsuairptman (Reply 44):
the fact that they can't get non-stop service

And/or that Allegiant provides service on a mainline aircraft. Personally, I would rather be on an NK or G4 aircraft than a CRJ-200. More shoulder room, less claustrophobic feel, even with the tighter seating.(pitch).

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