News filtering in.... probably a wet-leased aircraft...

29 injured as Saudia jet makes emergency landing
By

AFP

Published Sunday, January 05, 2014

Saudi Arabian Airlines jet made an emergency landing in Muslim holy city of Medinah in the west of the kingdom on Sunday, injuring 29 people, an aviation authority spokesman said.

The Saudia aircraft was travelling from Iran's second city of Mashhad with 315 passengers on board, General Authority of Civil Aviation spokesman Khalid Al Khaybari told AFP. http://www.emirates247.com/news/regi...rgency-landing-2014-01-05-1.533562

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lhvaa1fDDoE

Quoting JoKeR (Thread starter): probably a wet-leased aircraft...

My best guess ORIENT THAI:


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Photo © Ali Mithat Ozdogan - SpotTR


Seems to be Medina based HS-BKE:
http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/hs-bke

[Edited 2014-01-05 02:14:28]

Seems to be one pic on Twitter: https://twitter.com/Jackinuk/status/419780944501821440/photo/1

Sad day; one of the rather rare RR powered B763ERs.

Rgds

First PR by SAUDIA:

http://www.saudiairlines.com/portal/...6412852110VgnVCM1000008c0f430aRCRD

29 injured as rented SAUDIA aircraft makes emergency landing in Madinah

A rented Saudi Arabian Airlines plane, Boeing 767, had a minor accident at Madinah Airport at 4:15 a.m. on Sunday (January 5, 2014) while it was operating Flight No. 4841 from the Iranian city of Mashhad to the Saudi city carrying 299 passengers and a crew of 16.
“The accident occurred due to a technical fault of the aircraft’s landing gear,” an informed source at SAUDIA said. “This situation forced the pilot to conduct an emergency landing,” the source added.
As a result of emergency landing, 29 passengers suffered injuries, with 17 of them having minor injuries and were treated at the airport while 12 others were taken to hospital and most of them have left hospital after receiving treatment.
However, the source pointed out that the condition of three passengers was unstable. ...

Quoting debonair (Reply 4): Sad day; one of the rather rare RR powered B763ERs.

I always thought that BA is the only airline operating RR-powered 767s - obviously not?
Or is this Orient Thai a former BA-frame?

Maybe they should put some sort of skids on the bottom of the engines or reinforce the parts of the skin that would contact the ground in this case, as (although rare) this is hardly the first time a passenger plane has had to land without landing gear. Just some sort of metal skid plates in the right places - it wouldn't be that expensive.

Quoting DUSint (Reply 5): Quoting debonair (Reply 4): Sad day; one of the rather rare RR powered B763ERs. I always thought that BA is the only airline operating RR-powered 767s - obviously not? Or is this Orient Thai a former BA-frame?

Former China Yunnan aircraft. They operated three of them which were inherited by China Eastern when Yunnan was taken over.

Wonder if this one will be repaired. Engine no.2 finished, wing likely bent and the rear belly scratched. The plane is 17 years old and its best time his definitely over, btw LOT recently scrapped a 767-300 which was two years younger after a similar incident.

Quoting DUSint (Reply 5): I always thought that BA is the only airline operating RR-powered 767s - obviously not? Or is this Orient Thai a former BA-frame?

Qantas operated seven ex-BA RR 767s for a while.

Quoting na (Reply 8): Wonder if this one will be repaired. Engine no.2 finished, wing likely bent and the rear belly scratched. The plane is 17 years old and its best time his definitely over, btw LOT recently scrapped a 767-300 which was two years younger after a similar incident.

Its up to the hull carrier.

Here's the story with pictures from the Beeb; looks bad. Wing does indeed look quite bent and you can see, further down that the nose is quite high in the air.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-25612356

Quoting PHLSWAFLYER (Reply 10): ts up to the hull carrier.

It's up to the insurance company.

Fuselage is intact, apart from the bottom. All injured pax were maimed during stampede to get out. Cabin crew didn't control...

Damage to the aircraft does appear quite severe. More important, nobody was killed and injuries were kept at a minimum. Kudos to the flight crew; they seem to have done a superb job bringing down the crippled bird.

The aircraft in her original livery:

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Photo © Andrew Hunt - AirTeamImages

Quoting cloudyapple (Reply 12): It's up to the insurance company.

Sure, as always. I am only saying that a younger 767 was scrapped after a comparable accident. I think the chances for this plane to fly again are below 50%.

I hope these guys checked the Alternate Landing Gear circuit breakers before making the landing, unlike their colleagues in LOT Polish Airlines, back in November 2011?

Do we have any preliminary idea what caused the landing gear problem ? At least there seems to be no deaths, although some injuries in the emergency exit of the plane.

That's what I wonder too, at first I thought this could have something to do with it but then I noticed it happened elsewhere in Saudi Arabia... Strange coincidence.

http://www.businessinsider.com/human...rom-the-sky-in-saudi-arabia-2014-1



[Edited 2014-01-05 08:40:49]

[Edited 2014-01-05 08:42:40]

Quoting na (Reply 8): Wonder if this one will be repaired. Engine no.2 finished, wing likely bent and the rear belly scratched.

Always hard to judge these things from press shots.. the angle, light, reference points, and cropping can all conspire to make it look worse than it is... or not.

Why is the nose gear extended and down if the main gear had failed? Think the crew made a mess of this one but having flown in Saudi Arabia its not a surprise.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 18): That's what I wonder too, at first I thought this could have something to do with it but then I noticed it happened elsewhere in Saudi Arabia... Strange coincidence. http://www.businessinsider.com/human...rom-the-sky-in-saudi-arabia-2014-1

Don't see any relation between both incidents.

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 20): Why is the nose gear extended and down if the main gear had failed? Think the crew made a mess of this one but having flown in Saudi Arabia its not a surprise.

I think that's probably a bit unfair; SV has a good reputation and a modern fleet; this is a wet-leased aircraft. It's far too early to determine what went wrong, but it looks to me like the gear was down and locked, but the MLG leg failed either on touchdown or rollout - whether due to the force on landing, or structural weakness. The Saudi equivalent of the AAIB/NTSB will no doubt carry out a detailed investigation.

Quoting cat3land (Reply 13): Cabin crew didn't control...

Sorry were you there??? Interesting point you made there. Please elaborate.

Quoting DUSint (Reply 5):

QF operate RR 763s as well.

Quoting cat3land (Reply 13): Cabin crew didn't control...

The flight was carrying people to do Omrah, probably flying for the first time, can not be controlled in case of emergency, and language might be another barrier

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 24): QF operate RR 763s as well.

The last one left the fleet just over a month ago.

Only the right main landing gear failed to extend, by the way. That must have been a more difficult landing than if all of the mains had not extended. Congrats to the crew.

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 20): Why is the nose gear extended and down if the main gear had failed? Think the crew made a mess of this one but having flown in Saudi Arabia its not a surprise.

Only the right main gear failed and not both of them. I'm glad to hear everything turned out to be ok.

p.s: The title is somewhat misleading.

Viper911

I'll second Speedbirdie here...

Quoting cat3land (Reply 13): All injured pax were maimed during stampede to get out. Cabin crew didn't control...

Judging by the fact on your profile you state your occupation is "Atpl" then you'll know just how much training us
flight attendants go through before we're allowed to receive our wings. Were you the pilot flying this wounded 767? I somehow
doubt it...

Evacuations are difficult to control at best, a large number of people have a small phobia of flying and when you're told
to get your backside off an aircraft; panic sets in and all hell breaks loose. 315 people is a large number of frightened souls
to get off an aircraft quickly. Accidents happen on slides all the time.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 25): The flight was carrying people to do Omrah, probably flying for the first time, can not be controlled in case of emergency, and language might be another barrier

Also when you factor this in, it's understandable now that maybe it's not all down to the Cabin Crew having difficulty controlling the passengers.

JG  

Quoting outbackair (Reply 9): Qantas operated seven ex-BA RR 767s for a while.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 24): QF operate RR 763s as well.

Quoting Ditzyboy (Reply 26): The last one left the fleet just over a month ago.

However, those were ex-BA planes, right?
So, the only "original" RB211-powered 767s beside British Airways have been the China Yunnan samples of which one has apparently crash landed today? At least, this is confirmed by the german wikipedia 767-article.

Not ex BA, China Yunnan purchased 3 new with RR RB211 engines.

Quoting Dogbreath (Reply 16): I hope these guys checked the Alternate Landing Gear circuit breakers before making the landing, unlike their colleagues in LOT Polish Airlines, back in November 2011?

They did, and they were all in. It was circuit breaker C829 BAT BUS DISTR that kept the gear from extending.

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 6): Maybe they should put some sort of skids on the bottom of the engines or reinforce the parts of the skin that would contact the ground in this case, as (although rare) this is hardly the first time a passenger plane has had to land without landing gear. Just some sort of metal skid plates in the right places - it wouldn't be that expensive.

It would be expensive because those skids would add not inconsiderable weight, thus increasing fuel burn. Bolting on parts to a plane that add no benefit is not something airlines enjoy.

Skids would be completely redundant. What benefit would these skids confer that the belly can't handle today? Planes can and do land safely on their bellies already. Yes there were injuries but the aircraft is intact with no post-crash fire.

Conversely, in an event where the landing is not under positive control (Asiana), no skid will save the plane. No landing gear either, for that matter.

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 20): Why is the nose gear extended and down if the main gear had failed? Think the crew made a mess of this one but having flown in Saudi Arabia its not a surprise.

First off, the airplane seems to be wet leased, which means it doesn't even have a local crew. Secondly, we have barely any information at this point. Drawing conclusions seems a mite premature.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 25): The flight was carrying people to do Omrah, probably flying for the first time, can not be controlled in case of emergency, and language might be another barrier

Definitely language will have been a communication problem here. But most pilgrims coming in from Mashhad will have flown a few times before. Its not Kabul.

315 passengers on a 763. That sounds cozy.

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 20):

How on earth can the crew do anything regarding how the plane is angled when it comes to a complete rest? Having flown before can you please indicate the correct procedure to be followed? You do realize that in the panic if people ran to the back of the aircraft it might have tipped on its tail. Or perhaps it has something to do with the loading of the aircraft. Have you ever seen a tail prop on the back of an aircraft?

And if you have flown in Saudi before, you'll know that medina is a difficult airport for an approach because of the valley and the winds and the elevation, and you'll actually be applauding the crew for landing at that airport at night with one gear still retracted, MED is a challenging place to land into when the gear is working fine.

Some suggest the injuries of passengers in their emergency escape from the landed aircraft is due to a lack of experience with flying or of poor education. I would note that even with a number of crash landings evacuations of aircraft involving passengers with 'western' education, culture, life experiences and previous flying experiences there have been injures and even deaths - for example the crash landing of the Asiana flight at SFO last year.
Considering what happened here, likely there was as serious problem all knew about, smoke and burning smells, injuries should have been expected in the crash and the emergency escape.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 37): I would note that even with a number of crash landings evacuations of aircraft involving passengers with 'western' education, culture, life experiences and previous flying experiences

What astounds me from evacs of passengers from the "West" is how many stop to get their belongings from the overheads before heading out.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 38): Quoting ltbewr (Reply 37): I would note that even with a number of crash landings evacuations of aircraft involving passengers with 'western' education, culture, life experiences and previous flying experiences What astounds me from evacs of passengers from the "West" is how many stop to get their belongings from the overheads before heading out.

This behavior is not limited to the West. People are the same all over.

One of the ex Yunnan ones is, if I am not mistaken, with MIAT Mongolian Airlines as J-1011. I had the not so big pleasure of going on one. The flight was nice, the crew great and the sound of the engines music. Only was it an aircraft change from D1C to 763. It was the one wetleassed for Biman. Luckily I flew the day befor to HKG on the D1C...

Quoting btfarrwm (Reply 35): 315 passengers on a 763. That sounds cozy.

Perhaps some Muslim A.netters might better explain this, but my understanding is that the pilgrimage is not supposed to be made in luxury, it is supposed to be a time of sacrifice and reflection. So my guess is that there are few, if any, F/C/J-class seats aboard.

Quoting btfarrwm (Reply 35): 315 passengers on a 763. That sounds cozy.

According to the aircraft data page at Boeing 767-300 Data

the typical three class layout is for 210, two class 269 (24 premium & 245 economy seven abreast) and max seating for 350 at eight abreast.


Regards,

SA7700

People are reporting body parts falling out of the sky. Could be connected to the gear maybe?

http://rt.com/news/body-parts-saudi-arabia-211/

Quoting flanker (Reply 43):

Jeddah and Madinah are 175nm apart, so this has definetely nothing to do with that 763 operating SV2841 Mashhad-Madinah.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 41):

Go look at the hotels around the Kabaa in Mecca on Google Earth, or search for hotels in Mecca on a travel website, some of the first names to come up:

Hilton
Raffles
Movenpick
Intercontinental
Etc.
Etc.

You will find every type of person, black, white, rich or poor at these places and there's something to cater to everyone, from the crumiest holes in the wall to the most luxurious hotels you'll ever see in your life. Just take a look at the ramp(s) at JED during Hajj, everything from sardine cans (aka charter 747classics) to private business jets to mainline airlines with full service F class e.g. EK, EY.

At the end of the day it's what you can afford vs. what you want to get out of the trip, after all it's supposed to be a spiritual experience. There is no rule in the religion which says you should intentionally try and put yourself in undue hardship, that is actually against its teachings. But at the same time you shouldn't be overly indulging in the luxuries of this life either. Some where in the middle is just about right. I myself could afford a 5* hotel but would chose not to in favour of something simple, clean of course, 3* is about right. It's hard to be thinking about matters spiritual when your in a 5* hotel!

That being said some people are just too poor to afford anything else but the bare minimum, and yes some will only be taking one plane trip in their life, and that is for Hajj (wasn't the case in this instance since Hajj was in October, but still you expect less frequent travellers). In this case they were actually flying Saudia and that would have been the ticket they bought, so it was definitely no cheap charter. I don't know about you but I sure as heck expect a full service when buying a ticket on Saudia. And if these people were really challenged financially they would not have been arriving on a plane, but by bus, you often see a lot of busses from all around the Middle East when in Mecca and Medina, including Iran.

I think people are racially/economically stereotyping here, I don't think any of you would really know how you or anyone would behave in an emergency evacuation, no matter which country they were from, I think a persons character and composure under pressure matters a lot more than their ethnicity. If anything people from the third world are far more used to be crammed into small places like bus stops train stations etc. so you would actually think they would be able to handle such a situation much better. If you would care to look up the accident during testing for certification of the MD-11 you might come to realise that emergency evacuations are notoriously dangerous even ones that take place inside a hanger and are entirely planned.

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 45): And if these people were really challenged financially they would not have been arriving on a plane, but by bus, you often see a lot of busses from all around the Middle East when in Mecca and Medina, including Iran.

Mashhad to Medina by bus? Don't think so.

[Edited 2014-01-06 04:28:02]