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allrite
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Australian Aviation Thread #86

Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:41 am

Continuing on from thread 85 which is now over 200 posts long.

We discussed:

* Thread 84 and its focus on Qantas management, their non-purchase of 777s etc etc etc.
* Why QR doesn't fly to SYD
* GA 777 delay in services
* QF 734 retirement delayed
* 788 and 789 performance
* QF aircraft to BKK
* Seating on QF A333s - should Y+ be introduced?
* Analyst recommends QF be split into three subsidiary groups
* QF, 777, blah blah blah
* NZ A320 mayday
* Should VA acquire Rex?
* EK DBX-SYD-SCL rumour
* MCY-AKL and NZ's all Y service
* Toll Dnata taking over NZ's ground handling in Australia
* QF A330 suggestion for PER-JNB and future of JNB routes

Maybe tempers not flare in this summer heat and the skies be smooth for all airlines above us.
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shnoob940
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:48 am

Apologies for the ignorance, but could someone please fill me in on the QF 734 retirement delay? I am booked on QF692 ADL-MEL on the 15th of February because I was told by various sources that it was the last service.

-gibbo
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:54 am

Quoting shnoob940 (Reply 1):
Apologies for the ignorance, but could someone please fill me in on the QF 734 retirement delay?

Goodness alone knows, there is nothing official at all, but I stumbled across one in the timetable and after some playing around realised that it's been pushed back a week. Whether that sticks is anyones' guess.

Maybe QF felt that they were a bit short on domestic capacity?       

Quoting shnoob940 (Reply 1):
I am booked on QF692 ADL-MEL on the 15th of February because I was told by various sources that it was the last service.

Me too. It's quite frustrating! For the time being I'm going to sit back and see if there are any further fluctuations between now and then before committing more money to this.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:54 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 201):
Yes, we have, and I have read the various documents (some at your suggestion) more than once to try to come to terms with it. And perhaps we slightly part company from the git-go:

I believe we do. I do find it curious that your free market bones support a government sanctioned monopoly.  

From the last thread:
And one of the contradictions I find is that the IASC suggests there is competition on the routes to SA, at least from BNE and MEL:

It's used to defeat the QF/SAA argument that pax need a home carrier at both end of the market to make it viable. If this is the case then pax from MEL and BNE would make their connection with QF via SYD rather than SQ or EK. But the fact that 85% of pax bound to, and from, South Africa from MEL and BNE choose not to fly QF or SAA points to the fact that it is not important to have a home carrier at either end.

I will also find it fascinating to see what the IASC does this time and what submissions are made. Lets argue the merits of authorisation, or denial of authorisation, while it's happenening.  
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:00 am

Quoting shnoob940 (Reply 1):
I am booked on QF692 ADL-MEL on the 15th of February because I was told by various sources that it was the last service.

If I look at Sun 16 Feb ADL-MEL then the Qantas website shows QF686 as operated by a 734 and QF670 on the Monday is the same. I don't have an answer why this is the case.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:00 am

Re QF 734 retirements, I should further add that those trying to chase the DL DC-9 retirement (a much more significant event) had the incredibly frustrating experience that the "official" final flight (which was last week) was, in fact, not the final flight, and they are continuing to appear in the schedules!

I do feel sorry for those enthusiasts who went out of their way to be on DL2014 as Delta specifically made a big deal about it being the final flight and had balloons, certificates etc.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:01 am

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 3):
I believe we do. I do find it curious that your free market bones support a government sanctioned monopoly.  

Mostly, I think the government should just get out of the way and let the market do its work. If it ends up as a monopoly (AKL-LAX springs to mind) so be it. If there is competition, so be it.

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 3):
I will also find it fascinating to see what the IASC does this time and what submissions are made. Lets argue the merits of authorisation, or denial of authorisation, while it's happenening.

  

I've done my dash. I can't think I'll have much more to say, except may a few "bah, humbugs"!  

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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:03 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 5):
Re QF 734 retirements, I should further add that those trying to chase the DL DC-9 retirement (a much more significant event) had the incredibly frustrating experience that the "official" final flight (which was last week) was, in fact, not the final flight, and they are continuing to appear in the schedules!

I don't think there is a QF 734 named the "John Farnham", but maybe there should be. Or we could just blame Alan Joyce.   
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:04 am

Quoting allrite (Reply 4):
Monday is the same

As I said in the last thread, this is what I'm seeing at the moment as being the current "end"

February 21:

#1

QF804 MEL-CBR
QF811 CBR-MEL
QF818 MEL-CBR
QF819 CBR-MEL
QF822 MEL-CBR
QF821 CBR-MEL

#2

QF951 BNE-CBR
QF477 CBR-MEL
QF850 MEL-CBR
QF853 CBR-MEL
QF856 MEL-CBR
QF878 CBR-SYD
QF783 SYD-ADL

February 22:

QF732 ADL-SYD
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:25 am

Quoting allrite (Reply 7):
I don't think there is a QF 734 named the "John Farnham", but maybe there should be. Or we could just blame Alan Joyce.

hahahaha "and in breaking news Qantas has retired the last 737-400. The John Farnham was finally sent to Victorville in January 2020 after re-appearing in schedules periodically over the last 6 years after its official retirement."

Quoting mariner (Reply 6):
I've done my dash. I can't think I'll have much more to say, except may a few "bah, humbugs"!

Well Christmas can be a time of "bah, humbugs" so it could be appropriate.  
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:27 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 2):
it's been pushed back a week.

Thanks QF! I spent $400 on this trip (a lot for a 16 year old) only to find out that it's not to be.. Lovely.

-gibbo
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:43 am

Quoting shnoob940 (Reply 10):
Thanks QF! I spent $400 on this trip (a lot for a 16 year old) only to find out that it's not to be.. Lovely.

You could try contacting them with your situation and asking if they might waive the change fees (I recommend via social media). But unless they are planning an event around the last flight it might be hard to tie down an absolutely confirmed date. I expect we'll see a bit more fanfare when the last 747-400 goes rather than for a subtype of an aircraft that is still in the fleet.

Wonder if there will be any send off for the 767. I suspect not.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:49 am

Quoting allrite (Reply 11):
Wonder if there will be any send off for the 767. I suspect not.

Probably not, but I'm sure some of us Anetters will make our own fun  
Quoting allrite (Reply 11):
I expect we'll see a bit more fanfare when the last 747-400 goes

Definitely, they will send that one out with a party

Quoting allrite (Reply 11):
You could try contacting them with your situation and asking if they might waive the change fees (I recommend via social media

      

And definitely via social media.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:53 am

Quoting allrite (Reply 11):

Hmm. Fair idea. However my friend that is accompanying me has paid for the entire SYD-ADL-MEL-SYD journey with points. We've discussed trying to do both, but given the amount of    we have the chances are very slim of us getting on 732 on the 22nd. I guess we'll just have to write it off and agree not to bother with Qantas anymore because they can't hold their word to anything..       So disappointed.

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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:01 am

Quoting shnoob940 (Reply 13):
agree not to bother with Qantas anymore because they can't hold their word to anything

Out of interest, did you get word about Feb 15 being the key date from any sort of official channel at QF, or only through informal sources such as Anet?

If it is the latter then QF haven't actually done anything wrong. Frustrating, I know, but AFAIK QF didn't make any representations about that date being significant.

Quoting shnoob940 (Reply 13):
hances are very slim of us getting on 732 on the 22nd

Now that is a flight that I would have to be on  
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:10 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 6):
Mostly, I think the government should just get out of the way and let the market do its work. If it ends up as a monopoly (AKL-LAX springs to mind) so be it. If there is competition, so be it.

I'm inclined to agree that they should butt out unless absolutely necessary - say if QF & VA decided to merge. But the track record is variable at best, so someone must like flexing their muscles at the IASC.

Today I read in the Daily Terror that Max Moore-Wilton has apparently "...conceded defeat on a second airport at Badgerys Creek, declaring he expects the federal government early this year to announce their intention to build the airport..." Sad Max admits defeat on second Sydney airport at Badgerys

From his attitude it seems that he may not take up the option of building a second Sydney airport. He believes that he hasn't "seen any facts to justify finding money on building a second Sydney airport" and likens it to YMX or AVV. Hopefully if SACL do not build a second Sydney airport there will be some pricing tension between the two.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:22 am

Quoting QFVHOQA (Reply 15):
He believes that he hasn't "seen any facts to justify finding money on building a second Sydney airport" and likens it to YMX or AVV.

Unfortunately that's why I support building High Speed Rail first. Let's gut the golden triangle, and then determine whether Kingsford Smith is capable of meeting Sydney's medium-term aviation needs. If we build YMX-MkII then that will not only be a colossal waste of money but it will discourage infrastructure investment in other areas (i.e. HSR).

Of course what I'm suggesting will probably kill Qantas, but that would be collateral damage in actually meeting this country's infrastructure requirements.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:28 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 14):
Out of interest, did you get word about Feb 15 being the key date from any sort of official channel at QF, or only through informal sources such as Anet?

If it is the latter then QF haven't actually done anything wrong. Frustrating, I know, but AFAIK QF didn't make any representations about that date being significant.

Not only did I read various things via internet sources, I contacted a Qantas representative via telephone to make an inquiry, and talked to Qantas staff at Sydney, Adelaide, Perth and Melbourne airports on various trips to ask them about it. All of which confirmed that 692 on the 15th was the last one.

I have written a letter to them on Facebook, via personal message. I am yet to send it, and would like some thoughts on what I have written. Please?  

Dear Qantas.

My name is Nick and I am 16 years old. I have had an interest in aviation since I was four years old. I particularly enjoy flying on 737-400 aircraft. When I learnt that you were retiring them, I did immense amounts of research and contacted various people (some of which are employed by Qantas) and services to find out when the last service (retirement) was. I, among many others, figured out that QF692, from Adelaide to Melbourne on the 15th of February, was to be the final 737-400 service. I immediately contacted my friend, 17, who also has an interest in aviation. We agreed that we would save up and go on a trip, in order to be a part of the last Qantas 737-400 service ever. Our itinerary looked like this:
Sydney to Adelaide on Qantas flight 751, on the 15th of February.
Adelaide to Melbourne on Qantas flight 692, on the 15th of February. (the all important retirement service we were aiming to get on)
And after spending a night in a hotel in Melbourne,
Melbourne to Sydney on Qantas flight 464, on the 16th of February.
We were very excited to be a part of the last service for the aircraft, until this morning, when I was browsing an online forum for aviation enthusiasts alike, and I discovered that you (Qantas) had decided to delay the retirement of the aircraft by one week. After telling my friend, who was due to accompany me on the trip, we were both very upset by this. In order to make it on to the NEW retirement service, QF783 from Adelaide to Sydney on the 22nd of February, we would have to purchase new flight bookings, with an estimated cost of $258 each, with Qantas, as well as having to book a hotel for the night in Adelaide, which we estimate would cost around $80 each. In addition to this, it would render the previous weeks trip irrelevant, wasting around about $349 of my own money, which took me months to save up, and thousands of my friends Frequent Flyer/AMEX points, which he used to pay for the trip, as he is unemployed. As well as that, the estimated hotel cost in Melbourne, was to be around $80, each. I would just like to express my immense disappointment at your decision to delay the retirement of the aircraft, and I hope you realise the amount of inconvenience you have caused myself, my friend and many other enthusiasts who also wanted to be a part of the retirement service.

Nick *******

-gibbo
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:58 am

Quoting shnoob940 (Reply 17):
I have written a letter to them on Facebook, via personal message. I am yet to send it, and would like some thoughts on what I have written. Please?

Okay, I think it is a very good letter - but for one thing.

Understand that I make my living as a writer and I am also extremely litigious - I've fought court battles in Oz and the US and have never lost a case, as plaintiff or defendant.

You had me all the way until the end. I know from reading it - as anyone would - that you are upset, and why, your reasoning is great, you express yourself well.

But - it's not enough to be upset. Clearly, you would like Qantas to "do" something, but you have to say what it is.

I doubt they're going to change flight schedules so what is it that you want from them?

If you're looking for the ability to swap your tickets for the dates you now want, I think you should say so. No need to get heavy about it (in the first instance anyway) just throw yourself on their mercy, so to speak.

The offer of a simple swap may be - may - more attractive to them than any request for a refund, so keep that up your sleeve.

But I'd also send a copy of your letter to the SMH or The Australian and any aviation whose name you can find and also put it up on Facebook. And - to gild the lily - I'd send a (paper) copy of the letter to Alan Joyce. He'll never see it but you might get through to someone.

Make a fuss. Yell. It may not get you anywhere, but (a) it might and (b) you'll feel better.

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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:03 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 16):
Unfortunately that's why I support building High Speed Rail first. Let's gut the golden triangle, and then determine whether Kingsford Smith is capable of meeting Sydney's medium-term aviation needs. If we build YMX-MkII then that will not only be a colossal waste of money but it will discourage infrastructure investment in other areas (i.e. HSR).

Actually I'd suggest both be done at the same time and that the Western Sydney stop be at Badgerys Creek Airport. (That is to say you bring the HSV into Central from Badgerys Creek) But we know a HSV isn't going to happen anytime soon.

So onwards and upwards for building a second airport in Sydney. Hopefully anyone associated with Macquarie bank or Sydney Airport aren't allowed anywhere near it!

Ultimately I'd like to see SYD closed and the whole operation moved out to Badgerys. Either that or highly slot restricted with a perimeter and/or aircraft size rule to force carriers out there. That will both alleviate congestion around the current site, allow for further expansion of Port Botany, (by taking airport traffic off of the roads and replacing it with Port traffic), and finally bring some infrastructure certainty into Inner Sydney.

Not to mention freeing up a huge parcel of prime real estate in Mascot for commercial and residential development.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:42 am

This 2nd SYD airport will be very interesting to see transpire.

First of all, how will airlines be forced to move ops to the new airport if they don't want to move? Yes, a few carriers have signaled their support for the airport, but ultimately I suspect many are more happy to see their rivals out there than themselves. Some hefty incentives will likely be required.

I can see the Current SYD airport (KSA) become like a LHR, the premium, slot controlled airport, forcing airlines like TT and JQ to move ops there. This will likely hurt their connections from VA and QF flights respectively. Joining them out there would be airlines like QR who are only interested in looking at starting flights to SYD with a 24 hour airport.

I can't see QF and VA wanting to duplicate too many flights though, as this drives up costs and loses many connection benefits. Ultimately, both would see SYD still as the prize, given its location close to the city centre.

Things will likely get messy  
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:56 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 20):
This 2nd SYD airport will be very interesting to see transpire.

First of all, how will airlines be forced to move ops to the new airport if they don't want to move? Yes, a few carriers have signaled their support for the airport, but ultimately I suspect many are more happy to see their rivals out there than themselves. Some hefty incentives will likely be required.

I can see the Current SYD airport (KSA) become like a LHR, the premium, slot controlled airport, forcing airlines like TT and JQ to move ops there. This will likely hurt their connections from VA and QF flights respectively. Joining them out there would be airlines like QR who are only interested in looking at starting flights to SYD with a 24 hour airport.

I can't see QF and VA wanting to duplicate too many flights though, as this drives up costs and loses many connection benefits. Ultimately, both would see SYD still as the prize, given its location close to the city centre.

Things will likely get messy  

I think it will depend on the size of the 2nd SYD airport (and location). If they made it huge from the start and then government placed restrictions on SYD (DCA like) then we could see it happen. Otherwise it will become a JQ/TT hub and VA/QF will remain.

Also QR won't go there while EK/EY/QF/Every other legacy flies into SYD.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:17 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 16):
Unfortunately that's why I support building High Speed Rail first. Let's gut the golden triangle, and then determine whether Kingsford Smith is capable of meeting Sydney's medium-term aviation needs. If we build YMX-MkII then that will not only be a colossal waste of money but it will discourage infrastructure investment in other areas

I think predictions of a repeat of YMX are overstated. YMX was conceived at a time when Canadian law forced TATL flights to stop in Montreal before continuing to other Canadian destinations. This artificially inflated traffic at YUL and once the requirement was dropped, airlines decided they didn't want to stop in Montreal then continue to YYZ (for example).
SYD has growth constraints as YUL did but there's nothing at the moment inflating traffic figures. There are restrictions on operations that if removed would negate the requirement for SWZ but politically these are sticking around for the foreseeable future.
Even if a HSR network was built in Australia, realistically this would only decimate SYD-CBR-MEL flying. SYD-MEL travel times (city centre to city centre) would be comparable either flying or by rail. Yet what of the large and growing need for transport infrastructure in Sydney's west? HSR would presumably terminate at Central Station but another stop in Sydney's west would be required. Parramatta isn't on the way to CBR so Liverpool may seem likely, but this will cause an increase in travel times. But I digress.

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 19):
Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 20):

If SACL have nothing to do with SWZ then it's new owners will likely price their option to attract airline traffic away from SYD. You will also find airlines willing to fly there to flout curfew at SYD, not only QR but also flights overnight to Asia. SYD-Asia is difficult as leaving before curfew means an early AM arrival in Asia.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:44 am

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 21):
Also QR won't go there while EK/EY/QF/Every other legacy flies into SYD.

Unless they change their minds about the 24 hour airport, it will be their only option.

Quoting QFVHOQA (Reply 22):
There are restrictions on operations that if removed would negate the requirement for SWZ but politically these are sticking around for the foreseeable future.

Given SYD's location, ts no shock that it has such restrictions.

In many ways it was bad planning trying to keep it in its current location for so long. It would have had the same opportunity as MEL or BNE years back, but instead it was developed further in its current spot, surrounded by the city.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:14 am

I remember the issue of the "last" 734 flight being raised some time ago on this thread, and I did suggest that the track record of "last flights" in this country was fraught with danger, and so it continues.
I love the letter and Mariners comments, all good stuff. Good luck with it, and I suspect that one of the biggest assets you have in this matter is your age.
remember the t shirt "I own an airline"on the front - "qantas" on the back
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:19 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 16):
Of course what I'm suggesting will probably kill Qantas, but that would be collateral damage in actually meeting this country's infrastructure requirement

Unless QANTAS decided to invest in this venture!! I have a view that if the major airline groups in this country decided to invest in this project, it would be a goer, and even more so, could become very profitable, IMHO.
remember the t shirt "I own an airline"on the front - "qantas" on the back
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:58 am

Quoting shnoob940 (Reply 17):
I have written a letter to them on Facebook, via personal message. I am yet to send it, and would like some thoughts on what I have written. Please?
Quoting mariner (Reply 18):
But - it's not enough to be upset. Clearly, you would like Qantas to "do" something, but you have to say what it is.

Hi Nick,

I agree with Mariner and his suggestion.

I also have a feeling that we may know each other via my son - if you did your school's work experience with an airline in 2013 and my son did work experience with an AFL club.

Happy to help with your letter - PM me or call Josh on his mobile and we can chat.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:24 pm

Quoting TN486 (Reply 24):
remember the issue of the "last" 734 flight being raised some time ago on this thread, and I did suggest that the track record of "last flights" in this country was fraught with danger

You did indeed, which is why I wasn't surprised when I realised that it had changed

Quoting TN486 (Reply 25):
Unless QANTAS decided to invest in this venture!! I have a view that if the major airline groups in this country decided to invest in this project, it would be a goer, and even more so, could become very profitable, IMHO.

Now, I do like your thinking there!!!
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:05 pm

Quoting allrite (Thread starter):
* QF, 777, blah blah blah

I bet we are not done with this one either!!!

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 9):
Quoting QFVHOQA (Reply 15):
Today I read in the Daily Terror that Max Moore-Wilton has apparently "...conceded defeat on a second airport at Badgerys Creek, declaring he expects the federal government early this year to announce their intention to build the airport..." Sad Max admits defeat on second Sydney airport at Badgerys

From his attitude it seems that he may not take up the option of building a second Sydney airport. He believes that he hasn't "seen any facts to justify finding money on building a second Sydney airport" and likens it to YMX or AVV. Hopefully if SACL do not build a second Sydney airport there will be some pricing tension between the two.

I really get sick of the rent seeking by SACL here. I can see that a second airport in the west will be great - so many people will no longer be using the M$4 and M5 to get to Kingsford Smith reducing traffic issues and transport times for those people. Airlines will run split operations (id expect a CX, EK, SQ, a range of QF and VA domestic and plenty of TT and JQ flights operating out of the second port). All those people will pick up extra hours of their lives back (not to mention the others on the freeways going to work who will have a few less cars to accompany them.

Quoting TN486 (Reply 25):
Unless QANTAS decided to invest in this venture!! I have a view that if the major airline groups in this country decided to invest in this project, it would be a goer, and even more so, could become very profitable, IMHO.

QantasRail, I like it, but IMHO we are not going to see HSR in Aust any time soon - not enough population and a huge capex cost.

Quoting allrite (Thread starter):
We discussed:

We also discussed Rex, and I agree with mariner, the current management are also good at playing the rent seeking game. If you look at their latest results, they are looking for the reinstatement of en route charge subsidies and a scrapping of the carbon tax. When they are already making a reasonable profit before these and when these two items are responsible for only 4.4m of their total 15.9m PBT decrease, it is a bit rich I believe to ask for these (for disclosure, I beleive a carbon pricing mechanism is vital to reduce overconsumption of carbon based energy and the resultant environmental effects). When Brindabella went down, Rex was in there blaming the government for the fall when it is becoming clear that Brindabella was more an internal problem than external, especially when their routes are monopoly routes.

I dont think though that Rex should go after the leisure trafic out of SYD as much as a JQ or QLink does, focus on the point to point business travellers and regional VFR market. What would be innovative would be connecting a place like ABX to OOL for that leisure market (though the problem there is most people like having their car with them when they are on their Queensland holday), or they could connect places like Mt Gambier for example to SYD. Or WGA to BNE etc etc. With their small SAABs (which to address another point, should go on for years with the right maintenance) there could be some lucrative routes to open.

Quoting allrite (Thread starter):
We discussed:

And also SA/QF codeshare. Im interested in this as what happens here will also impact LA/QF as I think they operate very similarly. These are hard block codeshares no? Where each airline purchases a portion of the seats on the other airline's flight I see this as being like purchasing a 757 sized equivalent aircraft that had the legs (and 4 engines) to get across the Indian and putting it on the route and I dont quite understand how these are anticompetitive. The risk is on the airline that purchased the seat to sell them and so this will (I think) drive the competition needed. The airlines are not cooperating on pricing. You could have a scenario where QF is selling tickets last minute to get a bum on the seat, whereas SA marketing may not be so worried about that and is still selling higher priced tickets. Yes there is a level of cross guarantee between the two airlines as they buy from each other but that couldnt be a signicant driver of anticompetitive behavior?

This implicitly states that the aircraft that currently fly the route are too big to fill on their own. In other words, if the codeshare wasnt to operate, both carriers (if rational) would reduce their metal on the route to their respective proporation of seat numbers now and hope that pax will follow the metal. 5pw from SYD and 3pw from PER would be what I could see QF doing and perhaps an opposite for SA to bring the routes to daily. Id say the resultant price reductions would bring back the people who are flying via SIN or DXB to get there now (ie those from MEL and BNE etc in the 85%). As to whether that is profitable or not, well, thats a whole other question.

I do like the concept of SA working with VA/NZ though, helps competition, but will Comair schedules be enough to cover the QF feed needs at the other end assuming that QF inks a deal with Comair? Can anyone comment on the Comair service levels (and quality for that matter)? Would Comair be able to sell international tickets via PER and SYD into Australia (they use BA codes I thought)

As this impacts LA/QF, it will be harder to solve than the SA/QF codeshare if the LA/QF codeshare was stopped. Having LA and QF in the one alliance and LA being so dominant in S America are the problems i see. If QF and LA were not able to cooperate as they do (which again, I understand is a hardblock with no scheduling or pricing antitrust immunity) then its going to lead to some interesting codeshares at each end and perhaps a tougher pricing war on the SCL route (which I am all for personally when you compare SYD-SCL to SYD-LHR pricing!)
 
02hilliert
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:55 pm

Hi All,

Sorry to interrupt the ongoing discussion - I was just wondering if anyone could advise whether King Island Airways are still operating their EMB-110, and if so, if it is being used on a particular schedule?

I dropped the airline an e-mail, but got no reply. I might be in Tasmania in March, and if I could get a ride on their Bandierante, that would be awesome!

Thanks in advance.
Next Up: Back to the US - Charlotte & Kansas City
 
Sydscott
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:18 pm

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 20):
First of all, how will airlines be forced to move ops to the new airport if they don't want to move?

I don't think anyone would be "forced" to move out there. I think having a 24 hour facility will be enough incentive for some.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 20):
I can see the Current SYD airport (KSA) become like a LHR, the premium, slot controlled airport, forcing airlines like TT and JQ to move ops there. This will likely hurt their connections from VA and QF flights respectively. Joining them out there would be airlines like QR who are only interested in looking at starting flights to SYD with a 24 hour airport.

That's true. But then I also imagine that Badgerys will be used to substantially increase night flying around Australia. You could at least connect MEL, SYD, PER, BNE and CNS without restriction 24 hours a day. It could also make sense for airlines such as Scoot and AirAsia X, potentialy Cebu is the Treaty is expanded, to move some or all of their services out there if the price is right AND if it means a better arrival time into Asia.
 
6thfreedom
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:14 pm

Just taking a look at JQs new BNE-DPS flights starting in April.
One thing I haven't quite worked out is why JQ offers almost all Bali-Australia flights as overnight.
Understand that you need to offer some connections to other markets (even though JQ is an LCC), but why not offer a daytime schedule as well.

Current JQ schedule
BNE 0845 - DPS 1315
DPS 2335 - BNE 0655+1

i understand there will be ground time somewhere along the way, but why not put in a schedule that's more appealling to the local source market

BNE 0745 - DPS 1215
DPS 1335 - BNE 2105

with above schedule, by the time you arrive at 1215 you check in to your hotel by 2pm.
for the return, you can have a great night out, check out 10am and have a daytime flight back to Brisbane. then work the next day.
 
jupiter2
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:45 pm

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 31):

I understand your reasoning, but most holiday makers, families especially, to places like Bali want as much "day" time as possible and as little night time (another nights accomodation) as possible. If possible when on a budget, I will look for overnight flights, just saves that extra bit of cash and if you have a few people that can add up to considerable savings that can be spent on something else.

The BNE schedule doesn't look like a great use of the aircraft with that down time, or does the aircraft do a rotation to Perth in that time as well ?
 
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allrite
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:53 pm

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 31):
i understand there will be ground time somewhere along the way, but why not put in a schedule that's more appealling to the local source market

BNE 0745 - DPS 1215

So getting to the airport at 5.45am (2 hours prior to departure) is appealing? Sure I've done more than a few flights that leave at 6am up to Japan, but it can mean paying for an extra night's accommodation near the hotel prior to departure and makes it difficult to reach the airport via public transport.
I like artificial banana essence!
 
Jetstar315
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:16 am

In reply to 02hillert, King Island Airlines can be found on www.kingislandair.com.au
They operate from Melbourne (Moorabbin) about 10 kms south of the city to King Island at 7.30am and 3.30pm Mon-Fri, 7.30am only on Sat, and 3.30pm only on Sun.
Coming back 9.00am and 5.00pm Mon-Fri, 9.00am only on Sat, and 5.00pm only on Sun.
Fares are quite high. You might be better to go Melbourne-Launceston on Jetstar and see if there's a local connection
to King Island? The website doesn't specify the aircraft type.
Good Luck
 
Sydscott
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:28 am

Quoting jupiter2 (Reply 32):
I understand your reasoning, but most holiday makers, families especially, to places like Bali want as much "day" time as possible and as little night time (another nights accomodation) as possible. If possible when on a budget, I will look for overnight flights, just saves that extra bit of cash and if you have a few people that can add up to considerable savings that can be spent on something else.

I don't know, I can see the sense in what 6thfreedom says. However I would keep the current departure time to allow for connections in. If you do the return flight about an hour later than 6thfreedom says that means the flight departs around the same time as hotel checkout time and arrives in BNE just after 10pm local. For families etc that's not a bad flight and it still cuts out the need fo rhte extra night of accomodation etc.

Quoting jupiter2 (Reply 32):
The BNE schedule doesn't look like a great use of the aircraft with that down time, or does the aircraft do a rotation to Perth in that time as well ?

JQ do PER-DPS with 2 daily A320's, no 787's.
 
AeroplaneFreak
Posts: 302
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:35 am

QF819 (CBR-MEL) is showing as a 734 flight on Feb 22, this is the last flight I could find of a 734 on the schedule.

[Edited 2014-01-13 17:42:24]
 
eaglefarm4
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:58 am

Could they be planning BNE-DPS-somewhere in Asia or further ???.

Also the flights dep BNE on 1,2,4,6 but dep DPS on 1,3,5,7 Evenings so only the Monday flight turns around on the same day.It is a very long layover of 34 hrs on the other 3 flights.

Something is missing here.
tourismman
 
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EK413
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:17 am

Positive news for the flying kangaroo  


QANTAS RECOGNISED IN AIRLINE EXCELLENCE AWARDS

Today in AirlineRatings.com’s Airline Excellence Awards, Qantas has won awards in the categories of Best Economy and Best Lounges for our domestic and international networks. Of the 450 airlines from 207 countries rated by the website, Qantas was also ranked fifth in their top ten. This comes only a week after the same editorial team named Qantas as the world’s safest airline.

In recognising our outstanding Economy product, the Awards particularly singled out Qantas’ domestic economy product, noting that “there is absolutely no doubt that it is world’s best – and by a wide margin.” And, in praising our lounges, the airline safety and product ratings website said that “Qantas’ lounges have become an Australian air travel institution and the airline’s overseas offerings are an industry benchmark.”

Awards like these help to underscore the importance of our continued focus on the customer, even in tough times. While our efforts to control our costs and find efficiencies are absolutely crucial, so too is our wise investment in the things our customers truly value, like our lounges and onboard product. Our constant focus on customer service and operational excellence continues to make the difference between us and our competitors – and shows what we can achieve on a level playing field.

Simon Hickey, CEO Qantas International
Lyell Strambi, CEO Qantas Domestic

Read full press release on the Qantas News Room.

EK413
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
jupiter2
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:46 am

Quoting eaglefarm4 (Reply 37):
Could they be planning BNE-DPS-somewhere in Asia or further ???.

Also the flights dep BNE on 1,2,4,6 but dep DPS on 1,3,5,7 Evenings so only the Monday flight turns around on the same day.It is a very long layover of 34 hrs on the other 3 flights.

Something is missing here.

Probably heads to MEL or SYD on those days when it doesn't go straight back to BNE, can't see them doing anything to exotic with them.
 
aerohottie
Posts: 828
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:27 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 38):
Today in AirlineRatings.com’s Airline Excellence Awards, Qantas has won awards in the categories of Best Economy and Best Lounges for our domestic and international networks

What an absolute joke. Qantas' Economy seat is absolutely rubbish... especially when compared to most of its rivals. It has world trailing seat pitch, and incredibly tight width. And as for this...

Quoting EK413 (Reply 38):
In recognising our outstanding Economy product, the Awards particularly singled out Qantas’ domestic economy product, noting that “there is absolutely no doubt that it is world’s best – and by a wide margin.”

Were the judges smoking crack?! I actively avoid Qantas' domestic economy product because it is inferior to Virgin Australia... did the judges actually fly with Qantas in domestic economy???
What?
 
Sydscott
Posts: 3513
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:50 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:27 am

Quoting jupiter2 (Reply 39):
Probably heads to MEL or SYD on those days when it doesn't go straight back to BNE, can't see them doing anything to exotic with them.

It seems like, post school holiday period, the JQ 787's will do 12 Bali rotations and 3 Phuket rotations per week plus whatever MEL-AKL frequencies are booked in for Feb. Given by April there will be 4, (or 5) frames doing 15 rotations a week I think we'll see a further schedule announcement from JQ at some point about additional 787 frequencies.
 
6thfreedom
Posts: 2641
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:09 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:34 am

Quoting jupiter2 (Reply 32):
but most holiday makers, families especially, to places like Bali want as much "day" time as possible and as little night time (another nights accomodation) as possible.

fair point. i would have thought given the number of families going to bali that a midday departure getting back into brisbane by 10pm (which would be 7pm bali time?) would have a lot more appeal than a red eye.
as far as accommodation goes, i would assume most people are pretty peeved at checkin out at 11am and hanging around til 8pm without a room until they fly out.

Quoting allrite (Reply 33):
So getting to the airport at 5.45am (2 hours prior to departure) is appealing? Sure I've done more than a few flights that leave at 6am up to Japan, but it can mean paying for an extra night's accommodation near the hotel prior to departure and makes it difficult to reach the airport via public transport.

let's contrast that against one hour later for an 845am departure, or indeed getting back in at 6am after being up all day in bali and having a red eye flight back. at least the pain is on the the way out rather than coming back in.

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 35):
However I would keep the current departure time to allow for connections in.

i agree on connections, but given jetstar's network i'm sure they could do these over other ports.

SYD for QLD connections and Tasman
MEL for Tasmania or ADL?
 
jupiter2
Posts: 1739
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2001 11:30 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:06 am

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 42):
fair point. i would have thought given the number of families going to bali that a midday departure getting back into brisbane by 10pm (which would be 7pm bali time?) would have a lot more appeal than a red eye.
as far as accommodation goes, i would assume most people are pretty peeved at checkin out at 11am and hanging around til 8pm without a room until they fly out.

Again, I understand the rationale behind your thinking, but that midday flight is a whole day missed on your holiday. You can find stuff to do after you've checked out and stored the bags at the hotel, do some shopping, sightseeing, your still on holiday and most on the flight will be in the same predicament and won't care to much about the smelly, whinging people around them. Not to many people will be heading off to work/school the morning you arrive back from holidays, it's not as though it's a business destination and time is money for a business person. Get home, relax, do the washing, etc. Time at destination is a lot more important than going out of the way to make the return flight comfortable.
 
eaglefarm4
Posts: 447
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:33 pm

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:16 am

Quoting jupiter2 (Reply 39):

Negative as SYD,MEL arrive and depart same days.Eg SYD-DPS 1,5,6,7 eta 1945 dep at 2310 same days.

MEL-DPS arr 2,4,5,6,7 at 2240 and dep same days at 2350.

Sure there may be a swap of aircraft but it will still mean a long layover. Something still not right.
tourismman
 
AeroplaneFreak
Posts: 302
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:19 pm

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:18 am

Actually guys the last flight I can find with a 734 is QF819 (CBR-MEL) on Feb 23.
 
jupiter2
Posts: 1739
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2001 11:30 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:30 am

Quoting eaglefarm4 (Reply 44):
Negative as SYD,MEL arrive and depart same days.Eg SYD-DPS 1,5,6,7 eta 1945 dep at 2310 same days.

MEL-DPS arr 2,4,5,6,7 at 2240 and dep same days at 2350.

Sure there may be a swap of aircraft but it will still mean a long layover. Something still not right.

Ok fair enough..... the plot thickens   
 
koruman
Posts: 2179
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:08 pm

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:31 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 38):
Positive news for the flying kangaroo


QANTAS RECOGNISED IN AIRLINE EXCELLENCE AWARDS

Today in AirlineRatings.com’s Airline Excellence Awards, Qantas has won awards in the categories of Best Economy and Best Lounges for our domestic and international networks. Of the 450 airlines from 207 countries rated by the website, Qantas was also ranked fifth in their top ten. This comes only a week after the same editorial team named Qantas as the world’s safest airline.

In recognising our outstanding Economy product, the Awards particularly singled out Qantas’ domestic economy product, noting that “there is absolutely no doubt that it is world’s best – and by a wide margin.” And, in praising our lounges, the airline safety and product ratings website said that “Qantas’ lounges have become an Australian air travel institution and the airline’s overseas offerings are an industry benchmark.”

Awards like these help to underscore the importance of our continued focus on the customer, even in tough times. While our efforts to control our costs and find efficiencies are absolutely crucial, so too is our wise investment in the things our customers truly value, like our lounges and onboard product. Our constant focus on customer service and operational excellence continues to make the difference between us and our competitors – and shows what we can achieve on a level playing field.

Simon Hickey, CEO Qantas International
Lyell Strambi, CEO Qantas Domestic

Read full press release on the Qantas News Room.

Congratulations to them. I agree that Qantas domestic economy is a world class product.

I may have other reasons for choosing Virgin as my domestic carrier, but I acknowledge that Qantas domestic has an excellent product. I even used to like the dinners when last I flew them.

Hopefully this signals the start of a fight back by Hickey and Strambi within the Qantas group and they will start to emphasise the potential excellence of their product and ensure that Jetstar does not retain Carte Blanche both to get all the 787s and to compete against Qantas.

I may not like or respect the Board or the management team, but I'm the first to acknowledge the longstanding excellence of Qantas domestic and that Borghetti's behaviour illustrates that imitation is the highest form of flattery.
 
Sydscott
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Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:50 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:41 am

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 42):
i agree on connections, but given jetstar's network i'm sure they could do these over other ports.

SYD for QLD connections and Tasman
MEL for Tasmania or ADL?

I was actually think more of connections from regional routes off of Sunstate which aren't served from the other ports along with FIFO workers coming off of the mines and flying straight on.   I know a number of FIFO guys in Perth that basically live in DPS when they aren't in the Pilbara who do exactly that. (Sometimes they come in from DRW but it's more difficult getting to the mines from there)

Quoting jupiter2 (Reply 43):
Time at destination is a lot more important than going out of the way to make the return flight comfortable.

I can't imagine an overnight flight on JQ in economy being overlly comfortable anyway.............
 
jupiter2
Posts: 1739
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2001 11:30 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #86

Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:51 am

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 48):
I can't imagine an overnight flight on JQ in economy being overlly comfortable anyway.............

Can't imagine it would be any worse than a VA 737 though  

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