Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
737tdi
Posts: 1116
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:05 am

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:05 pm

Quoting roswell41 (Reply 42):
A go around would have been possible all the way down to touch down and could have been accomplished safely. Reaching decision altitude is only the point at which the pilot must see something out the front window in order to land the plane. In fact, it may have been possible to reject the landing right after the wheels had touched the ground. Based on the crew's actions, I think they honestly believed they were landing at the correct airport or they would have gone around up to the moment they actually touched down. I'll add though, that rejecting the landing after a certain point after touchdown (probably within a second or two of wheel touchdown) could have ended in disaster.

I think you reinforced my point? When did the crew realize that there was something not right? At touchdown?, probably. IMO that is to late to do a go around. The spoilers deploy on touchdown, the reversers are armed and probably being deployed. Way to late for a go around. We will have to wait and see when they actually knew they were at the wrong airport. IMO if it was at the point of touchdown and they would have activated TOGA they would have augured into the hill off the end of the runway. It takes time for the spoilers to retract, thrust reversers to stow and engines to spool to T/O power. I am betting we will all see this pilot made the correct decision to get it stopped instead of a go around. CFM56-7's take appx. 6 seconds to accelerate from Hi-idle to Take-off power. The engines would already be dropping from Hi-idle to ground idle anyway. If the crew did not realize their mistake until close to or touchdown the correct decision was made to stop the Aircraft!

I stayed at a hotel last night but it was not a Holiday Inn. But, I do know the aircraft quite well and what I have said is true.         

I am truly thankful that it all worked out.
 
flaps30
Posts: 189
Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 12:33 am

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:06 pm

Quoting SA7700 (Thread starter):
I don't think for a second that any controller would sit back and say nothing in todays culture.

I am not implying this at all. What I am saying is that ATC should be able to see the plane from A to C. That is their job to hand off the plane from one controller to another and guide the plane safely in. Isnt it?
every day is a good day to fly
 
ROSWELL41
Posts: 777
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2001 3:50 am

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:13 pm

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 50):
I think you reinforced my point? When did the crew realize that there was something not right? At touchdown?, probably. IMO that is to late to do a go around. The spoilers deploy on touchdown, the reversers are armed and probably being deployed. Way to late for a go around. We will have to wait and see when they actually knew they were at the wrong airport. IMO if it was at the point of touchdown and they would have activated TOGA they would have augured into the hill off the end of the runway. It takes time for the spoilers to retract, thrust reversers to stow and engines to spool to T/O power. I am betting we will all see this pilot made the correct decision to get it stopped instead of a go around. CFM56-7's take appx. 6 seconds to accelerate from Hi-idle to Take-off power. The engines would already be dropping from Hi-idle to ground idle anyway. If the crew did not realize their mistake until close to or touchdown the correct decision was made to stop the Aircraft!

I'll defer to your knowledge of the B737 as I'm an Airbus guy myself, but yes, once the spoilers and reversers were deployed I agree that they were committed to landing on that short runway. Any time up to touchdown, they could have executed a go-around and gotten out of that situation. They lost track of where they were and the important point at this juncture is to find out why.
 
737tdi
Posts: 1116
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:05 am

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:35 pm

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 47):
The point of DH is not to PRECLUDE initiating a go-around BELOW the DH. Rather, it is to MANDATE a go-around at that height if the required horizontal visibility and one of ten specific runway features is not in sight. In other words, it precludes going below the decision height if sufficient visibility has not been established by that point.

I have to say why is it set up this way? Because it is the last point at which to make a decision to land or reject. Can you reject after? Sure. Read my whole post and quote it properly, when you reach DH you are basically committed to the landing, you can go around at that point. There are the books/laws/regulations/data that say yes you can go around. Yes you can go around at any point, if the wheels are on pavement I don't think that is an option with souls on board.

Yes, it is the point at whether you can see the runway or not but it is also a point at whether you land or go around.

The crew was most definitely wrong at where they landed, did they make the right/wrong decision on go around or land? Only the voice recorder will tell us that.



Too answer another question here. Was the FDR and CVR data recovered prior to the aircraft leaving? I can tell you for a fact that in any suspected "deviation" the FDR and CVR are removed and replaced and sent to the appropriate authority.
 
ROSWELL41
Posts: 777
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2001 3:50 am

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:41 pm

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 53):
Too answer another question here. Was the FDR and CVR data recovered prior to the aircraft leaving? I can tell you for a fact that in any suspected "deviation" the FDR and CVR are removed and replaced and sent to the appropriate authority.

I would imagine they were. In fact, I'd bet money on it.

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 53):
Yes you can go around at any point, if the wheels are on pavement I don't think that is an option with souls on board.

In this case, I would tend to agree. In general, it is still possible. Its called a rejected landing or balked landing. We practice it regularly in the simulator at my airline. I've never had to do one in actual 121 flying, but it is possible up until thrust reverse is selected.
 
AR385
Posts: 6936
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:57 pm

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 50):
I think you reinforced my point? When did the crew realize that there was something not right? At touchdown?, probably. IMO that is to late to do a go around.

In this case, it would probably had ended up deadly, you are right. In general, and when an airliner is landing at the correct airport, once they touch down and the thrust reversers are not deployed, even though spoilers may be, a go around is prefectly correct procedure. In the 737 thrust reversers are not "armed" As a matter of fact, on a go around the landing gear is not retracted until the "positive rate" is called, because it is expected the plane will touch the runway.
 
tyler81190
Posts: 720
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:28 am

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:04 pm

Quoting flaps30 (Reply 30):
I agree that most of the fault is on the pilots, but what about the controllers? Dont they have some liability as well. I believe they have some fault in this.

Looking at previous NTSB findings, and many other incidents, and accidents, including Comair 5191, I will bet anyone a $1 that pilot error is the main cause, and I would be willing to wager a second dollar that it is the only cause listed in the investigation. (right or wrong, that is probably how it is going to go)

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 35):
Unfortunately many today expect instant results and don't want to do the dirty work of digging through things to find out why it keeps happening.

That, my friend, is the American way...
 
737tdi
Posts: 1116
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:05 am

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:06 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 55):
In the 737 thrust reversers are not "armed" As a matter of fact, on a go around the landing gear is not retracted until the "positive rate" is called, because it is expected

They are actually, The rad/alt arms the reversers on the 737NG, basically powers the synclock through the throttle switch pack. The reversers are now armed to be deployed.
 
RobertS975
Posts: 997
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 2:17 am

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:23 pm

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 53):
I have to say why is it set up this way? Because it is the last point at which to make a decision to land or reject. Can you reject after? Sure. Read my whole post and quote it properly, when you reach DH you are basically committed to the landing, you can go around at that point. There are the books/laws/regulations/data that say yes you can go around. Yes you can go around at any point, if the wheels are on pavement I don't think that is an option with souls on board.

Yes, it is the point at whether you can see the runway or not but it is also a point at whether you land or go around.

The crew was most definitely wrong at where they landed, did they make the right/wrong decision on go around or land? Only the voice recorder will tell us that.

737tdi, you are all wrong in your assertions. You are arguing with real pilots here. A go-around can occur below the DH and often does. The DH is usually about 200 feet above the runway elevation on a standard ILS, but the DH can be much higher than 200 feet. Go arounds can and do happen even as the wheels touch the runway when a runway incursion is noticed at the last moment or preceding aircraft fails to clear. Nothing to do with whether there are pax on board. OK, enough about your incorrect assertions...

This incident is another example of what is called confirmation bias. They expected to find the airport on this apparently clear night, they saw an airport beacon, then they saw runway lights aligned more or less with what they expected, and I guarantee that not once did they question whether this was their intended destination until they landed. Luckily, they must have noticed right away that they had screwed the pooch in order to get this plane stopped in time on the runway.
They could not have known how much distance they had to get stopped or that there was a nasty cliff at the end of the
runway until later.

Confirmation bias is insidious... perfect example was the Comair CRJ takeoff accident in LEX, rolling down a 3500 foot unlit runway all the while believing they were on the main 7000 foot runway. What could they have been thinking as they rolled past the lit long runway as they hurled down the unlit runway?
 
AR385
Posts: 6936
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:39 pm

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 57):
They are actually, The rad/alt arms the reversers on the 737NG, basically powers the synclock through the throttle switch pack. The reversers are now armed to be deployed.

Yes, I am aware of that, but they will not deploy automatically, as the spoilers do, until the pilots touch them.
 
737tdi
Posts: 1116
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:05 am

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:42 pm

Quoting roberts975 (Reply 58):
737tdi, you are all wrong in your assertions. You are arguing with real pilots here. A go-around can occur below the DH and often does. The DH is usually about 200 feet above the runway elevation on a standard ILS, but the DH can be much higher than 200 feet.

Arguing with real pilots??? Really. Now how do I know that? I got my license in 1978, when did you get yours. Real pilots? Really. I have probably been flying and working on aircraft longer then you have been alive. I don't know this for sure but with your attitude you seem young. Don't assume you are the King unless you are.
44
I Quit flying because it is incredibly boring. "Real pilots" what does that mean? I have flown a F-4 and a F-18A. What have you flown, I did not include the small aircraft. Know your subject before you say "real Pilots"???
 
RobertS975
Posts: 997
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 2:17 am

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:52 pm

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 60):
Arguing with real pilots??? Really. Now how do I know that? I got my license in 1978, when did you get yours. Real pilots? Really. I have probably been flying and working on aircraft longer then you have been alive. I don't know this for sure but with your attitude you seem young. Don't assume you are the King unless you are.
44
I Quit flying because it is incredibly boring. "Real pilots" what does that mean? I have flown a F-4 and a F-18A. What have you flown, I did not include the small aircraft. Know your subject before you say "real Pilots"???

Apologies, didn't seem that you were a pilot from what you posted. BTW, I got my license in 1974 at the age of 22. Never flew fighters though. Sorry for my mistaken assumption.
 
Jetfixr757
Posts: 138
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:16 am

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:13 am

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 57):

Radio alt arms the t/R's @ 10 ft, technically they will translate between 0&10 but they are not automatic. Speed brakes yes.
Jet
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6488
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:53 am

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 53):
I have to say why is it set up this way? Because it is the last point at which to make a decision to land or reject. Can you reject after? Sure. Read my whole post and quote it properly, when you reach DH you are basically committed to the landing, you can go around at that point

I am not sure if you have this right. The DH is the point at which runway visual environment must be confirmed to continue the approach and landing. You are NOT committed to land below the DH. In fact if below the DH you lose visual contact, you MUST execute a missed approach. (quite common in Canada with blowing snow).

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 53):
Yes you can go around at any point, if the wheels are on pavement I don't think that is an option with souls on board.

Yes, you can go around after you have touched down. Even after the spoilers are deployed ... it is called a Low Energy Go-around and we do them all the time in the simulator. What you can NOT do, is a go around after reversers are deployed.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3961
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:59 am

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 41):
How can anyone here even make a comment like that? Not being on the flight deck one has no idea at what point the PF realized that he/she was landing at the wrong airport. Once the aircraft reaches DH a go around is unsafe. That little yellow light illuminates on the RadAlt, that indicates decision height. Once that illuminates a go around is no longer a safe option. If the crew realized they were at the wrong airport at 500' then a go around was reasonable. If they realized it on touchdown then the only option is to get the aircraft stopped. Once decision height has been reached a go around is not advisable in almost any instance.

Literally everything you wrote here is wrong. DH is only set on CAT II and III procedures. DA (bugged on the altimeter) is the lowest height to get the runway environment in sight and continue the approach... otherwise a go around must be executed. DH is the same thing but on the radio altimeter, and typically around 100 RA for a CAT II procedure, but the reaction is the same.. you have to have some environment in sight or a go around must be executed.

However, this was a visual approach so there was no DH/DA. Those are only for instrument approaches. If a go-around is initiated below the DH/DA, it is referred to as a "reject," since you're no longer TERPS protected for the missed approach procedure on the IAP. You have to fly the obstacle departure if one exists.

The only time a go-around is no longer a safe option is once on the ground with the reversers deployed. If you haven't opened the reversers, but the spoilers are deployed, they automatically retract when you go to TOGA power. If you do a low level reject, you'll touch down momentarily as the engines spool up.

Had they aborted the landing into PLK, we wouldn't be reading about this.

Long story short, you need to completely revisit your understanding of that, and hopefully I got you going better in the right direction with this post.

[Edited 2014-01-14 21:01:26]
Chicks dig winglets.
 
Type-Rated
Posts: 3901
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 1999 5:18 am

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:24 am

The news reported that the NTSB is looking into the possibility of the jump seat passenger was maybe a distraction to the crew.
The jumpseater was a Southwest dispatcher, so they were legally allowed to be there and had permission from the captain. The analysis continues.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
737tdi
Posts: 1116
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:05 am

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:46 am

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 64):
Had they aborted the landing into PLK, we wouldn't be reading about this.

Long story short, you need to completely revisit your understanding of that, and hopefully I got you going better in the right direction with this post.

But you missed the point of my post. When did they realize that they were not landing where they thought they were landing? Read my follow up posts. Pilots are human and as such follow certain automatic reactions. I agree that you can reject a landing at anytime but is it safe and advisable to do so? This all comes down to experience and training and the most important, reaction time. Until you are put into a emergency decision making event, you can not speculate how you will react. It all comes back to training, and we hope it is good training. I am in no way going to second guess the Captain in this event, IMO he made the correct decision since there were no casualties. As I said before, until the cvr recordings are heard we will not know when the crew actually knew they were landing at the wrong airport.
 
User avatar
ua2162
Posts: 455
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 11:53 am

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:09 am

"The 737 is back in service, suggesting the probe is focused on human factors."

This is an actual quote from CNN (located on the left of the story under the summary section).

Really? Thank you Captain Obvious.
 
dispatchguy
Posts: 635
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:08 am

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:00 am

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 21):
Um...for some reason I think that after the Pinnacle "Club 41" fiasco, a Part 121 carrier has to operate repositioning flights as Part 121 flight

Incorrect, my airline we operate ferry flights under FAR 91 all the time, both with fully airworthy aircraft as well as aircraft on a maintenance ferry. Yes, as a dispatcher I provide the same services as far as preflight, and flight following go, but the flight plan is marked as a FAR 91 flight plan. Which means that the information is info only - the captain technically is solely responsible for the preflight planning on a 91 leg. It means that while I prepared the flight plan, I have no legal responsibility to it, or for it. Under FAR, once he is airborne on a 91 leg, I have no legal requirement to provide flight following, the company requires me to, but the FARs themselves dont for the concept of a dispatcher is nowhere to be found in FAR 91. While my name is on the flight plan, since it isnt a release, it doesnt contain my electronic signature.

On an FAR 91 leg, there is no legal requirement for operational control, unlike a 121 leg.

[Edited 2014-01-15 02:06:44]
Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
 
User avatar
PW100
Posts: 4123
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:13 am

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 53):
I have to say why is it set up this way? Because it is the last point at which to make a decision to land or reject. Can you reject after? Sure. Read my whole post and quote it properly, when you reach DH you are basically committed to the landing, you can go around at that point

There can be many reasons to abort landing after reaching DH (as you mentioned yourself), so I think you are putting too much weight to it by using the words "committed to landing".
When reaching DH you are not more committed to landing than for instance when establishing on ILS, or turning final from base, on a visual.
DH is indeed just the other way around; it is as far as you can safely (legally) go down, before you are committed to a go around.

PW100
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
NBGSkyGod
Posts: 868
Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 7:30 am

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:13 pm

Quoting passedv1 (Reply 48):

...Their primary job is making sure the runway is clear and there airspace is clear. That airport looks like it's on a reasonable left base to the intended airport. The tower controller can't watch every airplane from frequency change to touchdown. That is not/should not be there job...

This is somewhat false. It will come down hardest on the tower controller, as we ARE expected to be observant of all traffic in our airspace, this include watching for abnormalities in the approaches of aircraft, just as we are expected to warn an aircraft that his landing gear is up. Depending on what altitude the approach controller lost radar contact with the aircraft (it may have been out of radar contact for several thousand feet before anything appeared wrong), then they will also be held accountable for not notifying the tower/aircraft that something appeared out of the ordinary.
Pilots are idiots, who at any given moment will attempt to kill themselves or others.
 
PRFlyer
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:54 pm

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:05 pm

KTLA News is reporting that there was a SWA Dispatcher was jumpseating and there was chatter during the landing.
 
71Zulu
Posts: 1932
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:42 am

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:35 pm

Quoting PRFlyer (Reply 71):
KTLA News is reporting that there was a SWA Dispatcher was jumpseating

OK.

Quoting PRFlyer (Reply 71):
and there was chatter during the landing.

How could KTLA know that at this point?
 
User avatar
jetblastdubai
Posts: 2037
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:23 am

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:21 pm

Quoting PRFlyer (Reply 71):
SWA Dispatcher was jumpseating and there was chatter during the landing.

If this is true, isn't there a sterile cockpit rule or is that carrier specific?

Also, for the non-pilots following this thread, there is no DH on a visual approach. DH is associated with precision approaches and really has no bearing to this particular incident...it's for general discussion only.
It sounds like thunder but the way this year is going, it could be Godzilla!
 
PRFlyer
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:54 pm

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:27 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 73):
Quoting PRFlyer (Reply 71):
SWA Dispatcher was jumpseating and there was chatter during the landing.

If this is true, isn't there a sterile cockpit rule or is that carrier specific?
http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/14/travel/southwest-wrong-airport-landing/
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:40 pm

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 66):
I agree that you can reject a landing at anytime but is it safe and advisable to do so?

It definitely can be below decision height (or, more properly, decision altitude). They could have been 10 feet above the runway and it would have been safer to reject the landing than try and touch down and get the airplane stopped.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
71Zulu
Posts: 1932
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:42 am

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:25 pm

B737 touch and go

http://youtu.be/RgsSUjV7Dz0

***********************************************

Quoting NBGSkyGod (Reply 70):
It will come down hardest on the tower controller, as we ARE expected to be observant of all traffic in our airspace, this include watching for abnormalities in the approaches of aircraft, just as we are expected to warn an aircraft that his landing gear is up.

I guess the tower never actually saw the plane right? I just wonder why not tell them to report final on a visual approach to verify they are approaching the correct airport instead of clearing them to land early and waiting for them to hopefully show up.
 
tp1040
Posts: 373
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:30 pm

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:48 pm

I asked this earlier.


Given modern avionics, it seems like something needs to change. A one-off event needs investigation, but this occurs too often to not have a serious review.


What systems, procedures or culture need to change to prevent this from happening?
 
wjcandee
Posts: 10468
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:34 pm

Quoting dispatchguy (Reply 68):
Incorrect, my airline we operate ferry flights under FAR 91 all the time,

Yeah, as I edited my post, I double-checked it and they didn't make the change. There was so much talk about it at the hearings that I got it in my head that they had done so. Long Live Club 410!!!  Yeah sure

[Edited 2014-01-15 10:36:19]
 
dfwjim1
Posts: 2561
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:46 pm

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:48 pm

If the pilots are found to be at fault will the dispatcher in the jump seat also be in trouble?
 
User avatar
Moose135
Posts: 3240
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:27 pm

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:51 pm

Quoting UA2162 (Reply 67):
"The 737 is back in service, suggesting the probe is focused on human factors."

This is an actual quote from CNN (located on the left of the story under the summary section).

Really? Thank you Captain Obvious.

I guess it means they have ruled out any instrument malfunctions that might have pointed them in the wrong direction, causing them to think they were headed to the correct airport.
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
NBGSkyGod
Posts: 868
Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 7:30 am

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:17 pm

Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 76):
I guess the tower never actually saw the plane right? I just wonder why not tell them to report final on a visual approach to verify they are approaching the correct airport instead of clearing them to land early and waiting for them to hopefully show up.

Simply put, yes. I can't tell you how many times I have told an aircraft (professionally crewed at that) to report a fix, landmark, position, they blow through it, and if I hadn't seen them on final, would have landed without ever talking to me again. The controller should have been looking out the window for the aircraft he had been taking to, he wasn't that busy, this flight was most likely his only plane. I suspect that unless he did in fact reach out to that aircraft he will face desertification and retraining, and maybe learning his new phraseology "Welcome to Walmart!"
Pilots are idiots, who at any given moment will attempt to kill themselves or others.
 
User avatar
jetblastdubai
Posts: 2037
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:23 am

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:48 pm

I haven't read any initial NTSB comments on the incident so a lot of the speculation on here might be based on unknown variables so far. Has there been any preliminary official findings yet that have been made public? I don't have TV here so I have to rely on dial-up speed internet for news.

Do we know if WN even checked in with the tower? The aircraft landed at an airport 7 miles north of the tower-controlled airport so the aircraft never even entered the tower controller's airspace.
It sounds like thunder but the way this year is going, it could be Godzilla!
 
User avatar
deltacto
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:49 pm

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:58 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 82):
Do we know if WN even checked in with the tower? The aircraft landed at an airport 7 miles north of the tower-controlled airport so the aircraft never even entered the tower controller's airspace.

From Part 1 of this thread, 71zulu provided this link in reply 124:

http://www.ky3.com/news/local/southw...998/23901904/-/q8e47t/-/index.html

A spokesman for Branson Airport said the jet had not yet reached Branson Airport control tower air space, which is a five-mile circle from the center of the runway.

Jeff Bourk, executive director of Branson Airport, ... said the Southwest pilot was in communication with the Branson Airport tower, and at approximately 6 p.m. was cleared to land at the Branson Airport.




[Edited 2014-01-15 12:36:31]
 
Stackhouse007
Posts: 377
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:07 am

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:32 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 82):
Do we know if WN even checked in with the tower? The aircraft landed at an airport 7 miles north of the tower-controlled airport so the aircraft never even entered the tower controller's airspace.

I would find it very hard to believe that an airliner would continue with their landing if they never received clearance to land.
Nikon D60: 18-55mm - 55-200mm / Canon 50D: 100-400mm
 
wjcandee
Posts: 10468
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:14 pm

Quoting deltacto (Reply 83):
A spokesman for Branson Airport said the jet had not yet reached Branson Airport control tower air space, which is a five-mile circle from the center of the runway.

Jeff Bourk, executive director of Branson Airport, ... said the Southwest pilot was in communication with the Branson Airport tower, and at approximately 6 p.m. was cleared to land at the Branson Airport.

These two statements are not inconsistent. Approach can transfer an aircraft to Tower well outside of the designated "tower control airspace". You should be speaking to the tower when in their airspace, but nothing prevents you from being transferred to them well outside of their airspace. Happens all the time.
 
User avatar
PW100
Posts: 4123
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:55 pm

Sorry if I missed it, but did we already positively establish that Branson had an active tower controller at the time?
And was it also confirmed that the Branson airport was lit up (both approach and runway lighting)?

Thanks,
PW100
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
wjcandee
Posts: 10468
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:36 pm

Quoting PW100 (Reply 86):
did we already positively establish that Branson had an active tower controller at the time

FAA spokesman in one story said that the Branson tower was open and staffed.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10821
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:00 pm

Quoting DFWJIM1 (Reply 79):

If the pilots are found to be at fault will the dispatcher in the jump seat also be in trouble?

A dispatcher is one staff who would have more knowledge of the cockpit rules versus a non-flight employee - Pilot / FA - so if the sterile cockpit rule was broken I would not be shocked to see WN itself do something.
The pilots are ultimately responsible so the FAA will hold them accountable, WN also.

The article I read discussed the dispatcher with the comments that the sterile cockpit rules "may" have been broken, so as with everything else, my thoughts are pure speculation.
 
dispatchguy
Posts: 635
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:08 am

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:19 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 88):
A dispatcher is one staff who would have more knowledge of the cockpit rules versus a non-flight employee

A non-flight employee wouldnt be in the cockpit at all per FAR 121.547
Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
 
wjcandee
Posts: 10468
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:21 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 88):
The article I read discussed the dispatcher with the comments that the sterile cockpit rules "may" have been broken

Can't help but think of the South Park episode where the reporter stands 10 miles outside of the flooded town and says, "We're not sure what exactly going on inside the town of Beaverton, Tom, but we're reporting that there is looting, raping and, yes, even acts of cannibalism."
"My God, you..you've actually seen people looting, raping and eating each other."
"No...no we haven't actually seen it, Tom, we're just reporting it."

None of these people have any clue what was going on, and...oooh...there's a dispatcher in the cockpit so he must have distracted the pilots. Idiots. Seems to me that the cockpit environment is just as likely if not more so to be compromised by a pilot as a dispatcher.
 
a/c dxer
Posts: 415
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2001 10:52 pm

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:08 am

Taking a wait and see on if the dispatcher actually caused a distraction. Most likely the FAA is just being through and no sterile cockpit was violated. But every time I have jumpseated I was informed I was a 3rd set of eyes so if I see something the pilots always wanted me to point it out. Southwest already bars OAL dispatchers from riding in the jumpseat.
 
dispatchguy
Posts: 635
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:08 am

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:25 am

Quoting a/c dxer (Reply 91):
Southwest already bars OAL dispatchers from riding in the jumpseat.

When did that start? As long as youre in CASS, I've been welcomed many times in the SWA Flight Deck
Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10821
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:26 am

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 90):
Seems to me that the cockpit environment is just as likely if not more so to be compromised by a pilot as a dispatcher.

I suspect if it was a pilot the speculation by the reporters would be the same on the sterile cockpit, unfortunately, that is a byproduct of having such a rule and not being able to ban all non-working staff from the cockpit.

Now if it was a pilot, imagine the additional speculation especially if it was a WN pilot, but that's for another thread.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Thu Jan 16, 2014 3:56 pm

Quoting a/c dxer (Reply 91):
Most likely the FAA is just being through and no sterile cockpit was violated.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if it technically was - people just say things without thinking sometimes. With that said, there's no evidence as of yet that it had any effect on what happened.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
a/c dxer
Posts: 415
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2001 10:52 pm

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:58 pm

Quoting dispatchguy (Reply 92):
When did that start? As long as youre in CASS, I've been welcomed many times in the SWA Flight Deck

Everytime I have jumpseated with them that is what I have been told.
 
WNCrew
Posts: 1004
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:22 pm

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:38 pm

Quoting dispatchguy (Reply 89):
A non-flight employee wouldn't be in the cockpit at all per FAR 121.547

"Sec. 121.547 — Admission to flight deck.

(a) No person may admit any person to the flight deck of an aircraft unless the person being admitted is—
.....

(3) Any person who—

(i) Has permission of the pilot in command, an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder.."

So they can, in fact be a member of management. In fact at WN we allow certain approved members of management who have noting to do with Flight Ops to ride on the FD jumpseat, the list isn't incredibly long, but it's there. This list DOES NOT include FA's, who oddly are the only ones approved to enter the FD during flight (don't get me started on how none of that makes sense)... but I wanted to make that distinction above.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
hardalphaTi22
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:16 pm

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:56 am

I'm sorry, I know most people here are in the industry, and are in the tank for the pilots.

But I was out there Monday. This is basically a dirt airstrip.

You land a 737 on a dirt airstrip by mistake, you are *finished*

As uncomfortable as it may seem, my analogy is this:

(1) Husband drives car up to the wrong house late at night --
mistakes neighbor's house for his (approach)

(2) He then walks into the wrong house and plops into the wrong bed (landing).

(3) He then realizes the lady next to him is not his wife (Informs passengers).

(4) The *^+%# the hits the fan. Cops are called to sort everything out.
(Local authorities resolve the situation; FAA investigates)

It would be interesting to determine the $ cost of this screwup. It was a major
event for the local and state law enforcement, not to mention the airline and
airports. A pilot really should do the honorable thing in this case if he had any
self respect.
 
D L X
Posts: 12722
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:07 am

Quoting hardalphaTi22 (Reply 97):
A pilot really should do the honorable thing in this case if he had any
self respect.

What is the honorable thing you suggest?
 
sccutler
Posts: 5843
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: WN Lands At Wrong Airport (Part 2)

Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:14 am

"Basically a dirt airstrip"?

Well yeah, except for the paved runway and taxiways and ramps and stuff.

And lights. It has runway lights.

And a beacon, an operating airport beacon.

And, like, hangars and an FBO terminal.

And, well, roads.

But you're right there *is* dirt there. It's under the paving.

"dirt airstrip." Sheesh!
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos