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MAH4546
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AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:35 pm

AA has begun loading it's new 767-300ER configuration into reservations systems. The product has yet to be unveiled, but the J cabin will be 28J in a 1-2-1 configuration. Main Cabin Extra shrinks by one row to only 14 seats before the mid-cabin lavs. Regular economy remains unchanged, rows 20-44.

Configuration is 28J/14Y+/167Y versus current 30J/21Y+/167Y.

AA will only configure part of the 767-300ER fleet. The rest will remain with the current angled lie flat product. It is rumored they will largely be dedicated to Miami medium-haul flying (GYE, LIM, BOG, LAX, etc.).
a.
 
AABB777
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:37 pm

This is great news. But... when will AA finally reveal the new Business Class product on the 763 and 772?

How is AA already loading the new config without installations being started?
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:06 pm

Quoting AABB777 (Reply 1):
How is AA already loading the new config without installations being started?

Installations were supposed to start this month. It might very well have started, I don't know.
a.
 
EricR
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:12 pm

Quoting Mah4546 (Thread starter):
J cabin will be 28J in a 1-2-1 configuration

Glad to see AA take a page out of DL's book and offer all isle access in business class. This really is the minimum standard all airlines should be using for international J class.
 
AA767400
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:31 pm

I take it economy will remain that same? Same interior, seats, overhead monitors, etc. That would really be unfortunate, seeing how DL and UA, have both refurbished their 763s with the works. Including AVOD through out, and DL even adding lower level crew bunks.
"The low fares airline."
 
aa773
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:47 pm

One 767-300 N376 has been at BFM since the 8th ... Couple of others are in TUL ... Not sure where they would do the refit
 
tortugamon
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:03 pm

Quoting Mah4546 (Thread starter):
Configuration is 28J/14Y+/167Y versus current 30J/21Y+/167Y.

So they go from 2-2-2 in J to 1-2-1 adding two rows of J to only lose 2 seats and all it costs you is one row of Y+? That is some fancy work right there.

tortugamon
 
klkla
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:57 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 6):
So they go from 2-2-2 in J to 1-2-1 adding two rows of J to only lose 2 seats and all it costs you is one row of Y+? That is some fancy work right there.

Probably using the same seat as DL does in their 767's. It's the perfect biz seat for 767's.
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:08 am

Quoting klkla (Reply 7):
Probably using the same seat as DL does in their 767's. It's the perfect biz seat for 767's.

Let's hope not. A weak product with extremely narrow and tight seats. Not sure why DL and a bunch of other airlines love them so much.

JAL has created the perfect 767 J product.

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 4):
I take it economy will remain that same? Same interior, seats, overhead monitors, etc. That would really be unfortunate, seeing how DL and UA, have both refurbished their 763s with the works. Including AVOD through out, and DL even adding lower level crew bunks.

Nothing is really known about Y.
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bizjet
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:27 am

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 8):
Let's hope not. A weak product with extremely narrow and tight seats. Not sure why DL and a bunch of other airlines love them so much.

JAL has created the perfect 767 J product.

JAL has substantially the same seat as DL (and OS, among others) on the 767.
 
klkla
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:29 am

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 8):
Let's hope not. A weak product with extremely narrow and tight seats. Not sure why DL and a bunch of other airlines love them so much.

It's popular because it's space efficient for the airlines and comfortable for passengers.

- lie flat
- direct aisle access
- lots of personal space (I especially like the spacing between seats)

I think the only downside would be for overweight people the seat width itself might be a little tight.

The JAL seat is pretty much the same thing with a different trim.
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:02 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 6):
So they go from 2-2-2 in J to 1-2-1 adding two rows of J to only lose 2 seats and all it costs you is one row of Y+? That is some fancy work right there.


There --may-- be the exact same # of seats in Y, but there may be less legroom, one less toilet, slimmer seats, who knows?
When I doubt... go running!
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:39 am

Quoting bizjet (Reply 9):
Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 8):Let's hope not. A weak product with extremely narrow and tight seats. Not sure why DL and a bunch of other airlines love them so much.

JAL has created the perfect 767 J product.

JAL has substantially the same seat as DL (and OS, among others) on the 767.

I wasn't aware. Amazing the difference some high quality trim makes.

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 11):
There --may-- be the exact same # of seats in Y, but there may be less legroom, one less toilet, slimmer seats, who knows?

There isn't. The space behind the mid-cabin galley has the same rows 20-44. Only the space before the galley is being reconfigured.
a.
 
OB1504
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:40 am

Will 20ABCEGHJ and 21ABHJ continue to be sold as Main Cabin Extra on the new configuration?

Will AA actually update the economy cabin or ignore it like they did with the previous refit?

I'm curious as to whether or not 14 Main Cabin Extra seats (not counting rows 20 and 21) is enough to meet customer demand, considering that the 737 has 48Y+ and the 757 has 52Y+. Then again, I've always felt that those aircraft had too many Y+ seats and too many end up being given away.

[Edited 2014-01-16 18:40:56]
 
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N62NA
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:46 am

Quoting Mah4546 (Thread starter):
AA will only configure part of the 767-300ER fleet. The rest will remain with the current angled lie flat product. It is rumored they will largely be dedicated to Miami medium-haul flying (GYE, LIM, BOG, LAX, etc.).

Well that's disappointing. Guess I'll have to hope they keep running at least one 772 on MIA-LAX-MIA (or if we're really lucky a 77W).
 
OB1504
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:48 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 14):
Well that's disappointing. Guess I'll have to hope they keep running at least one 772 on MIA-LAX-MIA (or if we're really lucky a 77W).

I think the 32T or 77W will eventually have to be allocated to the route if AA wants to maintain 3-class service, once the 772 fleet starts losing their F cabins.
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:48 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 14):
Quoting Mah4546 (Thread starter):AA will only configure part of the 767-300ER fleet. The rest will remain with the current angled lie flat product. It is rumored they will largely be dedicated to Miami medium-haul flying (GYE, LIM, BOG, LAX, etc.).
Well that's disappointing. Guess I'll have to hope they keep running at least one 772 on MIA-LAX-MIA (or if we're really lucky a 77W).

I'm sure the new config will make it to MIALAX - otherwise a bunch of planes are sitting on the ground doing nothing.
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Alitalia744
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:24 am

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 8):
Let's hope not. A weak product with extremely narrow and tight seats. Not sure why DL and a bunch of other airlines love them so much.

Heard it's the same seat - extremely narrow and tight - sub grey for blue....with minor tweaks to trimming.

And for what it's worth, I hate the damn seat, so much that I now avoid the DL 767s for my J travel.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
liftsifter
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Fri Jan 17, 2014 4:04 am

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 4):
I take it economy will remain that same?

I'm assuming the same product which is on the incoming 321s will be there, with AVOD.
A300 A310 A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A342 A343 A346 A380 B736 B737 B738 B744 B763 B77L B77E B77W B788 E190
 
klkla
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Fri Jan 17, 2014 4:06 am

Quoting alitalia744 (Reply 17):
And for what it's worth, I hate the damn seat, so much that I now avoid the DL 767s for my J travel.

Just out of curiosity why?
 
USAirALB
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Fri Jan 17, 2014 4:10 am

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 12):
I wasn't aware. Amazing the difference some high quality trim makes

   I find that DL's combination of leather navy blue, and the lack of a proper bulkhead design, makes the cabins appear very cold and sterile, especially in J. Check out the BusinessElite pics on the 747-you'll see what I mean. That said, the seat design appears really claustrophobic.
RJ85, F70, E135, E140, E145, E70, E75, E90, CR2, CR7, CR9, 717, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 744ER, 752, 753, 762, 763ER, 772, 77E, 77W, 789, 319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 343, 359, 388
 
tonytifao
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Fri Jan 17, 2014 4:14 am

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 20):
I find that DL's combination of leather navy blue, and the lack of a proper bulkhead design, makes the cabins appear very cold and sterile, especially in J. Check out the BusinessElite pics on the 747-you'll see what I mean. That said, the seat design appears really claustrophobic.

It's a 763, it will always be claustrophobic  
 
robt760
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:09 pm

For now, everything is speculation about what the J seat will or won't be. No use spinning wheels and burning rubber worrying about uncertainties..
 
FoxBravo
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:47 pm

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 8):
Let's hope not. A weak product with extremely narrow and tight seats. Not sure why DL and a bunch of other airlines love them so much.

For what it's worth, I really like them and would be thrilled if AA chose the same seats. I find them comfortable and private. I don't mind giving up a little width to avoid having someone to climb over--or climbing over me--on an overnight flight. I much prefer DL's seats to UA's, for example, but I know other people who feel the opposite. Obviously it's a matter of personal preference.

With that said, I still think that AA's seats on their 77Ws are the best business class seats out there. I realize they don't work on the 767, but I do hope they go with the same (or a very similar) product on their 772s.

[Edited 2014-01-17 10:50:14]
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
oc2dc
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:48 pm

I'm just excited that the configuration is 1-2-1 and the seats lie absolutely flat as opposed to the slip and slides they have right now.

First off, I travel alone about 90% of the time, so I really don't care to sit next to anyone if I'm flying J. The last 3 times I've crossed the pond in J on AA I've had some blabber-mouth trying to talk to me non-stop. Even when I have my earphones on and am looking strait ahead at my IFE, they would somehow garner my attention and blab about business and try to pry into my personal life. This 1-2-1 configuration will hopefully be a saving grace from that nonsense. Hopefully there will be a better privacy barrier in the center seats.

Additionally, the lie flat seats will be far better than the current J seat. In the current J seat the only comfortable sleeping position is the cradle...I cant wait to stretch my legs all the way out and not slide in...My only concern will be whether or not you will be forcing your feet into a little cubby-hole or whether it will be more like an ottoman. I feel really claustrophobic when I have to put my feet in there when I'm attempting to stretch out.
I'm not complaining, I'm critiquing...
 
FoxBravo
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:59 pm

Quoting oc2dc (Reply 24):
My only concern will be whether or not you will be forcing your feet into a little cubby-hole or whether it will be more like an ottoman.

If it's the same seat as DL, then yes it is a little cubby-hole. That's definitely one of the drawbacks to the design. For me, the direct aisle access and privacy outweigh the disadvantages, but I know others disagree. It's always a matter of tradeoffs when trying to squeeze the maximum number of flat beds into an airplane cabin, and different people have different priorities.
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
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tlecam
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:11 pm

I fly delta internationally to Europe often and therefore I'm on the 763 often. I am 6'2" 185 and I love the seat in J.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
pezzy669
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:02 am

That is a really, really tiny Y+ cabin. The one widebody that does a large part of their international lift has a MCE that is now going to be less than half the size of MCE on a MD-80. There are gonna be some peeved elites that are blocked out of MCE because the cabin is sold out because it is so tiny. 14 seats?!?


AA Mid/Longhaul International Y+

77W - 30 Y+
772 - N/A
763 - 21 or 14 Y+
752 INTL - 52 Y+

Domestic

757 - 52 Y+
738 - 56 Y+
321 - 36 Y+
M80 - 30 Y+
 
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jsnww81
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:26 am

Quoting pezzy669 (Reply 27):
That is a really, really tiny Y+ cabin. The one widebody that does a large part of their international lift has a MCE that is now going to be less than half the size of MCE on a MD-80. There are gonna be some peeved elites that are blocked out of MCE because the cabin is sold out because it is so tiny. 14 seats?!?

There are already a lot of peeved elites when it comes to MCE. After coming *very* late to the Y+ party, AA has rolled out an exceptionally uneven product that lays the groundwork for a lot of misplaced expectations. The MD80s have 10+ rows of MCE - which means a lot of happy elites who can take MCE as a consolation prize when upgrades don't clear - whereas the A319s have a tiny F cabin and just a few scant rows of MCE. As A319s have replaced MD80s the complaints from elites have been very real and very loud. I'd venture that for elites, the A319 is the most hated aircraft in AA's fleet, despite its fancy IFE and general shiny newness. On the Eagle side, you've got E175s with a very generous helping of MCE seats paired up with CR7s that don't have it at all.

The widebody MCE strategy is even worse. Currently only the "twilight zone" cabin on the 763s and 773s is fitted with MCE, and if you make a booking less than two weeks out you can forget about getting a seat there, irrespective of your status. Hearing that the cabin will be shrinking even further is very disappointing. The 772s, meanwhile, don't even have MCE. Yes, that will be changing as the 772s go through refits, but it's very puzzling that five years later the (erstwhile) flagship aircraft hasn't been fitted with Y+.
 
tonytifao
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:59 pm

MCE is crap. You get some more leg room, but no additional recline. Recline on 763 is horrible, thank god I haven't flown back there in years  
 
miaami
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:03 pm

Any date set for the unveiling?
 
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N62NA
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:31 pm

Quoting pezzy669 (Reply 27):
There are gonna be some peeved elites that are blocked out of MCE because the cabin is sold out because it is so tiny. 14 seats?!?

If you want MCE, pay for it!

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 28):
The widebody MCE strategy is even worse. Currently only the "twilight zone" cabin on the 763s and 773s is fitted with MCE, and if you make a booking less than two weeks out you can forget about getting a seat there

Such is life. If you book last minute, you have to take whatever is available.
 
OB1504
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:07 am

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 28):
There are already a lot of peeved elites when it comes to MCE. After coming *very* late to the Y+ party, AA has rolled out an exceptionally uneven product that lays the groundwork for a lot of misplaced expectations. The MD80s have 10+ rows of MCE - which means a lot of happy elites who can take MCE as a consolation prize when upgrades don't clear - whereas the A319s have a tiny F cabin and just a few scant rows of MCE. As A319s have replaced MD80s the complaints from elites have been very real and very loud. I'd venture that for elites, the A319 is the most hated aircraft in AA's fleet, despite its fancy IFE and general shiny newness. On the Eagle side, you've got E175s with a very generous helping of MCE seats paired up with CR7s that don't have it at all.

The widebody MCE strategy is even worse. Currently only the "twilight zone" cabin on the 763s and 773s is fitted with MCE, and if you make a booking less than two weeks out you can forget about getting a seat there, irrespective of your status. Hearing that the cabin will be shrinking even further is very disappointing. The 772s, meanwhile, don't even have MCE. Yes, that will be changing as the 772s go through refits, but it's very puzzling that five years later the (erstwhile) flagship aircraft hasn't been fitted with Y+.

   I'm not sure where the "five years later" came from, considering that Main Cabin Extra was only officially rolled out toward the end of 2012.

Is the A319, with its 30" seat pitch, really as uncomfortable in economy as the reviews have made it seem? I've read earlier that AA plans on adding more seats to its MD-80 and 737 fleets, possibly removing a row of MCE and adding another row or two of Y- by reducing seat pitch.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 31):
If you want MCE, pay for it!

I still think more than 14 passengers on any given 763 flight would be willing to pay for MCE, even though seats 20ABCEGHJ and 21ABHJ are now being sold as Main Cabin Extra, bringing the new total to 25... still nearly half of what's currently available on the majority of the narrowbody fleet.

As of January 1st, Advantage Gold (so weird typing that without the double A) and oneworld Ruby elites have lost their complementary MCE access, so maybe that will reduce demand somewhat. I still think there are too few MCE seats on the 763, and too many on the S80, 738, and 757.
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:13 am

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 32):
As of January 1st, Advantage Gold (so weird typing that without the double A) and oneworld Ruby elites have lost their complementary MCE access, so maybe that will reduce demand somewhat. I still think there are too few MCE seats on the 763, and too many on the S80, 738, and 757.

They actually still have comp access through next month. Starting in March they will still have comp access, but only when the check-in window begins. But given that's also when EXPs and PLATs are moving up cabin, I bet selection will be reasonable on certain types.
a.
 
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jsnww81
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:07 pm

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 32):
I'm not sure where the "five years later" came from, considering that Main Cabin Extra was only officially rolled out toward the end of 2012.

That's my mistake - not sure what I was thinking when I typed that.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 32):
I still think more than 14 passengers on any given 763 flight would be willing to pay for MCE, even though seats 20ABCEGHJ and 21ABHJ are now being sold as Main Cabin Extra, bringing the new total to 25... still nearly half of what's currently available on the majority of the narrowbody fleet.

This is the biggest issue. The two domestic "workhorses" of the fleet have a disproportionately large amount of MCE. The international workhorse, meanwhile, has a disproportionately small inventory that is about to get even smaller. Like you, I think the willingness to pay is probably greater than AA is expecting.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 32):
Is the A319, with its 30" seat pitch, really as uncomfortable in economy as the reviews have made it seem? I've read earlier that AA plans on adding more seats to its MD-80 and 737 fleets, possibly removing a row of MCE and adding another row or two of Y- by reducing seat pitch.

I've had two A319 flights - one in Y and in F. My coach flight on the A319 was in the coach bulkhead row, so I didn't really get an accurate idea of the cabin geometrics. The F seat was much harder and less comfortable than I was expecting, although that may be due to the newness of the leather. I've got colleagues who fly it (in coach) every week and say that behind MCE it's a deeply miserable experience - narrow armrests, tight seat pitch, over-firm seats and impossible to work on a laptop even if you T-Rex your hands and tilt the machine.

Back on topic - depsite the unbalanced approach to MCE it's great to see something happening with the 763s. I hope they also revisit the incredibly cheap decision (made in 2006) to refurbish only half of the passenger cabins with new overhead bins and wall paneling.
 
caribair
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:15 pm

AA remove the 6AB on the map of seats in 767 300 starting in June in preparation for the new seats .
Several Flights including the MIA-MAD & MIA SCL have only 28 J .
 
miaami
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:39 pm

Quoting caribair (Reply 35):
AA remove the 6AB on the map of seats in 767 300 starting in June in preparation for the new seats .
Several Flights including the MIA-MAD & MIA SCL have only 28 J .

6AB are the pilot crew rest seats (recently changed from 2HJ due to FAA requirements). Nothing has changed yet with the 767-300 seat map. AA currently only sells 28 J seats on International 767-300 operated flights.

[Edited 2014-01-19 10:41:42]
 
panamair
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:09 pm

Quoting caribair (Reply 35):
AA remove the 6AB on the map of seats in 767 300 starting in June in preparation for the new seats .
Several Flights including the MIA-MAD & MIA SCL have only 28 J .

Don't believe that reflects the new config. 6AB on the 763 are the pilot rest seats under the old configuration, hence they are blocked on the seat map. The new config has only A, D, G, J seats (row 2 through row 8): total of 28 J seats, but 8A will be reserved as the pilot rest seat, so essentially 27 J seats for sale on most international flights with the new config.
 
pezzy669
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:17 pm

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 32):
If you want MCE, pay for it!

The thing is with only 14 seats many people are going to be blocked out even if they wanted to pay. MCE is a comp benefit for Plat and Ex. Plat so why should they be shut out because of short sighted inventory decisions.

752 - 52 Y+
763 - 14-21Y+

That is a huge discrepancy!
 
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N62NA
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:24 am

Quoting pezzy669 (Reply 38):
The thing is with only 14 seats many people are going to be blocked out even if they wanted to pay. MCE is a comp benefit for Plat and Ex. Plat so why should they be shut out because of short sighted inventory decisions.

752 - 52 Y+
763 - 14-21Y+

That is a huge discrepancy!

I agree, it clearly is a huge difference. But, if it turns out that the demand is there for paid MCE, then I suppose AA will expand it.
 
FoxBravo
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:46 pm

Quoting pezzy669 (Reply 38):

One thought that comes to mind: many corporate travel policies (like mine) will pay for business class over a certain flight duration threshold (e.g., 5 hours). So on a domestic or shorter int'l flight there might be lots of business travelers in economy who want MCE, while on longer international flights (where the 763 generally operates), those travelers might be paying for J class meaning less demand for MCE. Not sure if that's the actual reason but it could be part of the equation.
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
OB1504
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RE: AA Starts Loading New 763 Configuration

Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:31 pm

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 33):
They actually still have comp access through next month. Starting in March they will still have comp access, but only when the check-in window begins. But given that's also when EXPs and PLATs are moving up cabin, I bet selection will be reasonable on certain types.

I wish they'd told the agents that. Thanks for the heads up!

Quoting pezzy669 (Reply 38):
The thing is with only 14 seats many people are going to be blocked out even if they wanted to pay. MCE is a comp benefit for Plat and Ex. Plat so why should they be shut out because of short sighted inventory decisions.

752 - 52 Y+
763 - 14-21Y+

That is a huge discrepancy!

Agreed. I feel like the longer flights are the ones where passengers would be more willing to pay for the extra legroom. 4 inches doesn't make much of a difference on a 2-4 hour flight on a narrowbody.

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