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BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 4:43 pm
by LAXintl
I guess the rumors from last year were true that BA sought a way to walk away from its freighter airline venture...


News out British Airways has elected to wind down its dedicated cargo-freighter service and return its 3 leased 747-8F aircraft in April.
The decision will see its Global Supply Services airline JV with Atlas Air wound down and the 3 GSS aircraft return to Atlas Air.

As part of this move, BA also signed a commercial agreement with Qatar for it to operate replacement 5x weekly 777F freighter services between London and Hong Kong for the British carrier starting in May.

Adding further to the changes, IAG Cargo last week also received a new CEO as well.


Atlas Air Worldwide, British Airways to Pursue New Opportunities
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/atlas-...ide-british-airways-130000501.html

Qatar to operate freighters on behalf of IAG Cargo
http://www.aircargoworld.com/Air-Car...e-freighters-behalf-iag-cargo/6082

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[Edited 2014-01-17 08:51:31]

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 4:51 pm
by na
Very sad to see these Beauties leave the sky.

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:10 pm
by rutankrd
Interested to know if these Qatar flights are going to utilise the acquired late evening and ex Cyprus slots at Heathrow ?

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:19 pm
by KarelXWB
Quoting na (Reply 1):
Very sad to see these Beauties leave the sky.

Atlas Air will search for another operator. With a bit luck, it might be a new customer.

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:33 pm
by na
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 3):
Atlas Air will search for another operator. With a bit luck, it might be a new customer.

Of course I am sure they´ll keep on flying, sadly just not in the BA livery which suits the 747 so well.

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:50 pm
by b747400erf
Is this proof that a 777F order would have been smarter?

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:12 pm
by Bongodog1964
Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 5):
Is this proof that a 777F order would have been smarter?

I think its proof that trucking airfreight round the M25 from STN to LHR in order to make a connection isn't the best idea in the World.

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:12 pm
by 1peter
A couple of points here.....it quite simply has come down to numbers. The last contract review it was boarder line as to whether the contract would be extended, which in fact it was.

In addition Mr Gunning has been in charge of Cargo for a few years now, he has just been retitled and also appointed to the IAG board. But essentially there's no change, he was the boss and still is!

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:25 pm
by Boeing757/767
Atlas has 777Fs in its inventory through its Titan leasing subsidiary. Would be interesting to see if Atlas itself adopts 777Fs in its operated fleet.

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:20 pm
by Stitch
Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 5):
Is this proof that a 777F order would have been smarter?
cargofacts.net is reporting that IAG Cargo has signed an agreement with Qatar Airways Cargo to operate five weekly 777F frequencies on their behalf between LHR and HKG.

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:18 pm
by shankly
This is the third, fourth (?) time in my lifetime I've seen a BA cargo product come and go. Firstly with the Merchantment and 707's in the 70's, then the 747-200 G-KILO in the 80's and laterly the Atlas 744's and then the 748's. Certainly an area of unsual hesitancy for BA

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:45 pm
by skipness1E
Quoting shankly (Reply 10):
This is the third, fourth (?) time in my lifetime I've seen a BA cargo product come and go

The B707s and the G-KILO were around at the same time, both carried the very short lived BRITISH CARGO titles. Atlas has been providing lift with firstly N495MC in BA colours then later the same aeroplane with GSS. It was only latterly the operation went back into BA colours with the coming of the B747-8F, but the Atlas / GSS operation stretched back to the late 1990s. The gap is really from 1982 when G-KILO went to Cathay and the arrival of N495MC in Chelsea Rose colours in 1999.

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:47 am
by virtual
What will happen to GSS?

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:54 am
by BestWestern
WIth the growth in belly freight capacty between Europe and Asia - and in particular between Asia and north America (of little influence to BA), dedicated air cargo is having a tough time.

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:06 am
by LAXintl
BALPA worried that GSS might be dead and UK pilot jobs being shipped overseas (QR).

http://www.balpa.org/News-and-campai...S-OF-BRITISH-JOBS-AND-EXPORTS.aspx

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RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:15 am
by skipness1E
The only reason GSS ever existed was Atlas wasn't allowed to run the usual ACMI based operation in the EU like they do for EK, QF etc

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:35 am
by Bongodog1964
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):
BALPA worried that GSS might be dead and UK pilot jobs being shipped overseas (QR).

http://www.balpa.org/News-and-campai...S-OF-BRITISH-JOBS-AND-EXPORTS.aspx

There appears to be no logic at all behind BALPA's statement, just because IAG is profitable in its entirety, why should they support a seemingly non profitable remotely located 3rd party sourced cargo operation ?

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:46 pm
by rutankrd
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 6):
I think its proof that trucking airfreight round the M25 from STN to LHR in order to make a connection isn't the best idea in the World.

Pallets move all over the UK and into Europe on dozens of trucks for BA and others every day of the week. The 56 miles journey between LHR-STN is not the reason for this effective closure.

If i understand this correctly (Tell if wrong) IAG have effectively merged BAWC and Iberia Cargo into a single business unit IAG Cargo and its this organisation that has terminated the BAWC/GSS contract.

Will be interested to see if the QTR flights are IAG exclusive or if QTR will be able to market some space themselves and its also rather interesting that whole cargo flights are apparently on the increase at Heathrow again.

Even Emirates Skycargo have two weekly flights now with a third being operated into Stansted

As for GSS employees hope they get alternative work (Not sure how many are directly employed)

I was under the impression (might be wrong) that the flight crews were seconded from BA and/or Atlas or was that only on the 744F ?

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:18 pm
by skipness1E
Quoting rutankrd (Reply 17):
Even Emirates Skycargo have two weekly flights now with a third being operated into Stansted

Ah when did this start? Any details of days / flight numbers etc?

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 2:23 pm
by rutankrd
Skip can't off hand remember times/numbers (Have them in office) but its Saturday and Tuesday into LHR and Thursday into Stansted .

The Saturday has been operating for some months as you know.

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 2:34 pm
by skipness1E
Yeah I knew LHR had one a week, then gone twice weekly, I wasn't aware the STN rumour had come about. Cheers for that. It's odd now seeing the B77F at LHR as Emirates B777s are rarities. How times change!

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:00 pm
by LAXintl
Quoting rutankrd (Reply 17):
I was under the impression (might be wrong) that the flight crews were seconded from BA and/or Atlas or was that only on the 744F ?

GSS crew are stand alone, not connect with BA or 5Y.

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:55 pm
by skipness1E
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 21):
GSS crew are stand alone, not connect with BA or 5Y.

There's a number of actual Speedbird pilots who seconded across from BA, this upset the exisiting GSS people no end I believe.

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 8:01 pm
by PW100
So BA free up another set of valuable LHR slots?

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 8:30 pm
by pnwtraveler
This is another indication of the slow recovery of the cargo market. AC Cargo had a long history when belly cargo was much more restricted. With the advent of the 777 and now the immanent addition of the 787, it would be a long long time before they look again at dedicated cargo, if ever. The A350 family and 777x will only exacerbate the situation. BA is now experiencing that same thing but coupled with the slowness of the recovery. It isn't a strike against the 748F performamce, except that it is a big bird to keep full. 77F has a bit of an advantage because it is more efficient when typical cargo is carried (not outsized in height for an example that the 748 can carry). Even then I don't think BA would still be able to keep the 77F working hard enough to make a go of it.

It really parallels the passenger market ie. Qantas. Better be sure you have the volume for A380 service year round, and that you haven't given away too much access to your customers. LH and AF are other examples of having a challenge with the biggest of birds. The only marginal benefit to the 748i is to match is to a smaller volume but consistent traffic to keep viable. But then even that difference is not driving major orders. The only other factor going forward is slot restriction, and that has not been the gold mine that sellers of the big birds thought it would be. The advances of the largest 2 engine new aircraft are really eating away at the bottom end of the big birds market. Plus they are slightly more flexible in your fleet.

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:11 pm
by rutankrd
Quoting PW100 (Reply 23):
So BA free up another set of valuable LHR slots?

No this transfer to Qatar will require an ADDITIONAL 5 pairs of Heathrow slots and these are believed to be coming from Cyprus Airways.

The current GSS operations out of Stansted/Frankfurt/Zaragossa do not impact the Heathrow operation at all.

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:12 pm
by rutankrd
Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 24):
It really parallels the passenger market ie. Qantas.

Qantas continues to have dedicated cargo operations with 73F/76F and ACMI Atlas B744F services.

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:14 pm
by rutankrd
Quoting skipness1E (Reply 22):
There's a number of actual Speedbird pilots who seconded across from BA, this upset the exisiting GSS people no end I believe.

Thats my understanding as well - there were a series of seniority issues and disputes some time ago.

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:28 pm
by afterburner33
Shame - I live under one of the flight paths into STN, and will miss seeing these great looking airplanes. They make/made a nice change from the endless Ryanair 738s and easyJet A319s.

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:35 pm
by pnwtraveler
Quoting rutankrd (Reply 26):
Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 24):
It really parallels the passenger market ie. Qantas.

Qantas continues to have dedicated cargo operations with 73F/76F and ACMI Atlas B744F services.

I wasn't clear. I was referring on the passenger side to the ability to fill the A380's not Qantas' cargo operations. The think long routes in the cargo side of the market will necessitate cargo operations in the unique market of Australia. BA servicing smaller and denser Britain has almost no need for non-belly cargo within Britain with the trucking, road access and rail network in Britain. And the huge number of ferry links, chunnel link and belly cargo to the European market is also another factor for short haul cargo in Britain that is different than Australia faces.

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:54 pm
by rutankrd
Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 29):
BA servicing smaller and denser Britain has almost no need for non-belly cargo within Britain with the trucking, road access and rail network in Britain. And the huge number of ferry links, chunnel link and belly cargo to the European market is also another factor for short haul cargo in Britain that is different than Australia faces.

If you are referring to BA being unable to compete with a host of full freighter services into near mainland airports such as Ostend/Maastricht/Amsterdam/Liege/Luxembourg and Paris in addition to Manston you are probably right.

And much/most outsized air freight has been trucked to/from one of these for years.

I know I organise such shipments .

As to BAWC (IAG) it seems they think the 77W/388 is a satisfactory offer and all once again will be declining anything off of a standard pallet. A stance hardly new to them.

So my boxes will be back on Cathay pretty soon.

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:44 am
by Viscount724
Quoting shankly (Reply 10):
This is the third, fourth (?) time in my lifetime I've seen a BA cargo product come and go.

Probably reflects the very cyclical nature of the cargo market.

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:08 am
by BestWestern
And the massive increase in belly space on passenger jets.

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:00 am
by PanHAM
European freight traffic is handled by the 3 1/2 Integrators, a few dedicated freight operations mostly working on behalf of smaller parcel delivery Systems and the rest of it goes by truck and a myriad of sprinter vans criss-crossing Europe every night.

Last time BE/BA was involved in that they used the Merchantman. When LH Cargo moved their European night freighter hub from FRA to CGN that was the beginning of the end for small freighters. That Operation is now in LEJ and called DHL.

The move of BA to stop being a combination carrier was inevitable, Splitting up These ops from the main base killed connectivity and the size was too small anyhow., I would not make any bets other than that LH will be the last stronghold for combination carriers in Europe. At least their Equipment choice was correct.

Leaqsing capacity from QR is a dangerous choice, either one of the ME3 has no Problem to fill the void left by taking 3 748F off the market.

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:24 am
by Bongodog1964
Quoting rutankrd (Reply 17):
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 6):
I think its proof that trucking airfreight round the M25 from STN to LHR in order to make a connection isn't the best idea in the World.

Pallets move all over the UK and into Europe on dozens of trucks for BA and others every day of the week. The 56 miles journey between LHR-STN is not the reason for this effective closure.

Adding at least 2 hours to any freight connection onto BA's belly hold freight services couldn't have been very useful.

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:26 am
by DALFA
I assume this also means the end of GSS' ops at CGN?

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:54 am
by rutankrd
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 34):
Adding at least 2 hours to any freight connection onto BA's belly hold freight services couldn't have been very useful.


Give up already its clear you have little understanding of cargo !

Again a four hundred pound sterling per forty foot trailer ride of 90 minutes is not the reason for this.

In actual fact much of the freight is/was inbound.

A Nice fresh food contract from Bangladesh for instance (That will go to an ME3 now) and those electronics from Hong Kong ( many with off of pallet are going to be calling CX again) destined for the domestic market, never needed to visit World Cargo Centre.


Freight from Europe dumped/collected at Frankfurt and Zarragosa never touched UK soil or a connecting flight trucked straight across Europe.

In fact some freight made its way from LHR to FRA to connect !

Its also certain some of the outsized/heavy shipments from Atlanta will be off to competitors.

You realise much so called airfreight spends more time on the back of a truck than airborne sometime even travels more ground miles !

You also realise BAWC (IAG Cargo) also rent capacity from several of those large Whole Freight carriers in the near continent and that won't change.

Any freight items that could connect on the existing LHR network already does anyway.

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:28 am
by rutankrd
Quoting DALFA (Reply 35):
I assume this also means the end of GSS' ops at CGN?

Yes all current stations across Europe - thats Stansted / Frankfurt / Cologne / Zaragoza and Madrid.

Internationally

Atlanta / Dallas / Chicago / Hong Kong / Dacca / Nairobi /Johannesberg /Bahrain / Dubai / Sharjah / Delhi / Mumbai / Shanghai / Damman.

Surprisingly large network a few of which receive no BA passenger services !

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:49 am
by cougar15
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 33):
European freight traffic is handled by the 3 1/2 Integrators

Who´s the 1/2???

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:57 pm
by rutankrd
Quoting cougar15 (Reply 38):

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 33):
European freight traffic is handled by the 3 1/2 Integrators

Who´s the 1/2???

FEDEX
UPS
DHL

and TNT or DPD ?

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:16 pm
by PHX787
This seems to be another blow to the 748.... I hope these birds find a new family soon

Maybe PAC can fly them.

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:28 pm
by PanHAM
Quoting cougar15 (Reply 38):
Who´s the 1/2???

TNT   I knew this would come up.... now it's my turn

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 40):
Maybe PAC can fly them

you mean Panalpina?

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:30 pm
by DALFA
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 40):

This seems to be another blow to the 748.... I hope these birds find a new family soon

It's really a challenge to fill all the capacity this aircraft has to offer and still let it operate profitably.

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:58 pm
by 1400mph
Alas.... my only opportunity to see a 748 (of any description) in BA colours has now gone the way of the Dodo.

  

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:19 pm
by skipness1E
Quoting 1400mph (Reply 43):
Alas.... my only opportunity to see a 748 (of any description) in BA colours has now gone the way of the Dodo.

They're at Stansted most days til the end of operations. Flightradar24 and planefinder are your friend, take a camera but don't wait too long. I still need G-GSSD so that's now a priority for me, my foolish assumption of "I have all the time in the world" is so often wrong.

[Edited 2014-01-19 06:20:28]

[Edited 2014-01-19 06:21:08]

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:21 pm
by 1400mph
Quoting skipness1E (Reply 44):
They're at Stansted most days til the end of operations. Flightradar24 and planefinder are your friend, take a camera but don't wait too long.

Thanks skipness.

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:35 pm
by vv701
Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):
cargofacts.net is reporting that IAG Cargo has signed an agreement with Qatar Airways Cargo to operate five weekly 777F frequencies on their behalf between LHR and HKG.

Do we know that the 777 will operate into LHR? This and the other links provided in this thread refer to "London" and not "LHR". So this could apply to STN and not LHR.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 36):
You realise much so called airfreight spends more time on the back of a truck than airborne sometime even travels more ground miles !

Indeed. BA World Cargo actually uses an extensive truck network in the USA as well as in the UK and Europe. For example BA9172 is a cargo truck between BTR and IAH where the cargo is loaded onto the scheduled BA194 flight to LHR. Another routing amongst many others is BA9950, a truck route between ABQ and DEN to connect to the scheduled BA218 to LHR. There are many other such routings.

Similarly if you booked for cargo to be carried by BA World Cargo from, say, Liverpool to Hyderbad it would likely travel by truck from LPL to MAN (BA3945) (d. 18:30, a. 21:00), by truck from MAN to LHR (BA3939) (d. 03:00, a. 09:00) and on scheduled 772 flight BA277 (LHR-HYD) (d. 13:35, a. 04:35 ). Acc0rding to the BA World Cargo timetable the elapsed time for this journey would be 88 hrs 35 mins.

Compared to some of these road routings the trip around the M25 between STN and LHR is a quick jaunt.

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:54 pm
by cougar15
Quoting rutankrd (Reply 39):
and TNT or DPD ?

Aha, you mean the second biggest (air express) operator in the EU with the highest express total volumes in the EU if you include their second day ground product

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:17 pm
by 1400mph
Quoting VV701 (Reply 46):
BA9172 is a cargo truck between BTR and IAH

I non-revved on that last year !

  

(sorry)

RE: BA Cargo Exit Freighter Venture, Return 747-8F

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:43 pm
by PanHAM
Quoting cougar15 (Reply 47):
Aha, you mean the second biggest (air express) operator in the EU with the highest express total volumes in the EU if you include their second day ground product

I'm the bad guy who started this and the 1/2 means the air ops only and only in comparison to what DHL, UPS and FX fly around every night. The TNT ground product is something completely different and that would have to compare with other ground ops of "regular" freight forwarders and their second day European products.
Completly different ball game. Not sure if TNT would win that.