iowaman
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:49 pm

As part 2 was getting lengthy here is part 3.

Part 2: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 2) (by SA7700 Dec 9 2013 in Civil Aviation)
 
invaders
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:16 am

Norwegians first 787 (EI-LNA), is again having problems. Was supposed to land at OSL 3pm later today from BKK but is now scheudled for arrival around 10am monday morning.

As some in the part 2 thread have pointed out, Norwegian have also experienced some minor problems with their new 738 too, but since they have around 80 737s its not having such a big impact on operations compared to the nightmare with the 787. And by the end of february the production is increased with the introduction of CPH-JFK when the 4th 787(EI-LND) is delivered...

This is of course unconfirmed but on a norwegian aviation-forum(flyprat.no) this was posted:
Discovered while taxiing, seems to be a leak from right wing somewhere. According to the captain it was problem with the pumping of fuel between the fuel-tanks.

And on top of that it was already 90 minutes delayed because of some sort of errors with the breaks....

[Edited 2014-01-19 02:21:37]
 
LondonCity
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:30 am

Quoting invaders (Reply 1):
And by the end of february the production is increased with the introduction of CPH-JFK when the 4th 787(EI-LND) is delivered...

Well let's hope that Norwegian will build some slack into its B787 schedules to allow for delays etc.
 
PHX787
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:25 pm

Is it the weather in Norway that is causing such havoc for DY? Or just bad luck
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Mortyman
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:09 pm

It's often problem With the fuel pumps is'nt it ? This is not the first time for Norwegian or other 787 operators where the fuelpumps are in error. One would have thought that Boeing would have come up With a solution by now ...

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 3):
Is it the weather in Norway that is causing such havoc for DY? Or just bad luck

No ... A fairly mild Winter here in Norway, compared to let's say the USA or Siberia ... Smile

[Edited 2014-01-19 06:16:19]
 
14ccKemiskt
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:15 pm

Apparently, a Norwegian 787 flight from Bangkok was cancelled today due to a fuel valve leak. A video of the leak was posted here (in Norwegian):

http://www.nordlys.no/nyheter/article7113814.ece
 
abba
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:31 pm

I think I remember that the one of the main reasons the Airbus engineers gave for not going all electric as on the 787 was low reliability.... I don't know how many of the problems can be explained by this.
 
rojo
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:04 pm

I had a 5 hour delay on Friday on AM003 MEXCDG (N965AM) due to an electrical problem that had to be fixed twice. AM maintenance fixed it once and we were about to take off when the captain announced that the electrical problem was showing again in the computer and we had to return to the gate. After 2 hours parked at the gate maintenance gave the green light and we were finally pushed back and departed MEX.
 
JAAlbert
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:05 pm

Jeez! Part three of this thread and we're still talking about whether Norwegian has been unrealistic or Boeing has breached its performance guarantees? I'm calling animal control, this poor horse has been beaten to a bloody pulp!

Boeing promised to increase the 787's dispatch reliability up into the 777's range within 6 months. Any word on how the efforts are coming along? What are the major challenges to hitting its dispatch reliability goal (i.e. software, design, spare parts, training)? Any anecdotal observations on the 787's performance from members working with airlines who fly them?

As I've mentioned before, JAL's 787 service into SAN seems to be running on schedule routinely. It often leaves NRT late, but since the plane seems to leave SAN pretty close to the departure time each day, I am assuming the late NRT departures are a result of traffic at NRT rather than issues with the plane itself. There were two days in the past month where the plane left NRT and SAN about an hour late, but all aircraft - including BA's venerable 777 that flies in and out daily -- has a few hiccups now and then.

As I've also mentioned, I live near SAN and often see JAL's 787 fly over as it lines up for landing and other times I see it hurtle skyward on its way home. I never get tired of seeing the plane - it's a beauty in the air.
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:15 pm

Quoting 14ccKemiskt (Reply 6):
Apparently, a Norwegian 787 flight from Bangkok was cancelled today due to a fuel valve leak. A video of the leak was posted here (in Norwegian):

Some of the passengers were taking pictures of the leak, and the cabin crew asked them to stop doing that because of the "danger of explosion." And those that had already taken pictures, were asked to delete them.
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
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Mortyman
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:22 am

From thread nr. 2. I am posting it here to as I think it's fairly significant info:



Boeing admits to the Norwegian managment that the Dreamliner aircraft has not performed as agreed. The Norwegian airline requires both real money and discount on new aircraft.

According to Nyseth ( administrative director at Norwegian ) Boeing admits that they have not delivered a product that is in accordance with operational requirements in the agreement.

- The aircraft comes with a warranty that says they must be some ninety-percent reliable. We are agreed that they have not been. Therefore, we discuss now the financial compensation, he said.


Boeing spokesperson Chamila Jayaweera comments: "We understand our customer's frustration and is continuing with Norwegian to find solutions and ensure the continued safe and successful operation of 787 aircraft in their fleet."


Boeing did not want to comment if there has been reached an agreement on compensation

Translated excerps from this article from Norwegian to English:

http://www.abcnyheter.no/reise/2014/...er-bade-penger-og-rabatt-av-boeing
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:49 am

I have just done a YYZ-LHR-YYZ round trip on BA G-ZBJC. The aircraft performed flawlessly and on time. The low dB level in the cabin was the big plus for me.
 
bellancacf
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:42 am

Quoting 14ccKemiskt (Reply 6):
Apparently, a Norwegian 787 flight from Bangkok was cancelled today due to a fuel valve leak. A video of the leak was posted here (in Norwegian):

That's a generous flow of fuel. What might cause that? Valve? Overflow? Is that actually an error, or is that supposed to happen under some circumstances?
 
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Finn350
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:09 am

Quoting bellancacf (Reply 13):
That's a generous flow of fuel. What might cause that? Valve? Overflow? Is that actually an error, or is that supposed to happen under some circumstances?

It might be this one:

Quote:
The ministry's air safety regulators concluded that on a Japan Airlines Co. Dreamliner, foreign matter had stuck to fuel valves, and coating material had been improperly applied, likely causing the valves to remain partly open and allow fuel to leak.


Source: http://tinyurl.com/nzza43w

The Norwegian fuel leak looks potentially hazardous. Luckily there were no spark sources nearby.
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:12 am

Quoting RedChili (Reply 10):
Some of the passengers were taking pictures of the leak, and the cabin crew asked them to stop doing that because of the "danger of explosion." And those that had already taken pictures, were asked to delete them.

Reducing the risk of an explosion by deleting images seems a bit over-ambitious  
 
invaders
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:42 pm

http://www.nettavisen.no/imagecache/...55/balto_bensin_52_125534616x9.jpg

Picture taken on EI-LNA at BKK yesterday.. People were btw asked not to take pictures as it might cause an explosion..
 
LondonCity
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:50 pm

That sight must have alarmed some passengers. I noticed from the article in the Norwegian media that this particular B787 flight was running 19 (nineteen) hours late.

It means that, following this fuel leak (on Sunday), it wouldn't have taken off until today (Monday) at the earliest.
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:02 pm

Quoting LondonCity (Reply 16):
It means that, following this fuel leak (on Sunday), it wouldn't have taken off until today (Monday) at the earliest.

Indeed. Was supposed to land 2.55pm yesterday but landed 11.05am today.
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:31 am

AI has transponder issues:

"An Air India Boeing 787-800, registration VT-ANE performing flight AI-116 from London Heathrow,EN (UK) to Delhi (India), was enroute at FL370 about 30nm west of Berlin (Germany) when the transponder and all other transponders failed, the aircraft became completely invisible to secondary (ATC) radar."

http://www.aeroinside.com/item/3605/...2014-complete-loss-of-transponders

tortugamon
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:54 am

Quoting invaders (Reply 15):

http://www.nettavisen.no/imagecache/...55/balto_bensin_52_125534616x9.jpg

Picture taken on EI-LNA at BKK yesterday.. People were btw asked not to take pictures as it might cause an explosion..

Sounds like a bad excuse. They were also asked by cabin crew to delete photo and videos afterwards. Hmmm..
Future flights: CPH-BOS; CPH-SVG; CPH-PVG-HKG-MNL-DVO; CPH-CDG; CPH-NRT; CPH-MIA; CPH-PVG
 
SA7700
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:14 am

Quoting EBGflyer (Reply 19):
Sounds like a bad excuse.

Why is it a bad excuse when passengers are in violation of the safety rules-and regulations of the airline? All electronic devices should be switched off when the "fasten seatbelt signs" are illuminated. So by your reasoning this is okay?

Thanks and regards,

SA7700
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:19 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 18):
AI has transponder issues:

I believe that's the 3rd transponder failure on a 787.
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abba
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:26 am

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 20):
Why is it a bad excuse when passengers are in violation of the safety rules-and regulations of the airline?

Because it is NOT a safty issue to ask people delete already taken photoes. Actually it is the opposite as it might require their equipment - in direct violation of the safty rules! - to be turned on longer.

Having pax deleteing already taken photoes is nothing but a PR issue. To get people to turn their cameras off is, however, not.
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:34 am

Quoting abba (Reply 22):
Because it is NOT a safty issue to ask people delete already taken photoes. Actually it is the opposite as it might require their equipment - in direct violation of the safty rules! - to be turned on longer.

I did not mention the deletion of images at all in my reply 20. IMO it is a safety issue when passengers don't comply with rules-and regulations in the first place - otherwise those rules-and regulations surely would never have been instituted from the start? That is all I'm trying to state.


Thanks and regards,

SA7700

[Edited 2014-01-21 02:07:33]
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
LondonCity
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:37 pm

LOT and Air India have been suffering from transponder problems. I believe a few months ago a LOT B787 had to land in REK while an Air India B787 had problems when approaching CDG.

Now I see that a London-Delhi flight had to turn back over Berlin owing to the same issue. The B787 in question landed back in London.


http://avherald.com/h?article=46ecf9c3&opt=0
 
abba
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:48 pm

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 23):
That is all I'm trying to state.

On that point we agree!
 
Wayfarer515
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:48 pm

Now it's the turn of China Southern's 787-8

http://avherald.com/h?article=46ed08cf&opt=0

(sarcasm on) It's good to know the reliability keeps improving though. (sarcasm off)
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:28 am

Quoting Wayfarer515 (Reply 26):
Now it's the turn of China Southern's 787-8

For those who won't follow a link, multiple error messages on descent which the airline says was caused by a computer failure.
BV
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:51 am

The 787 reliability rate is now around 98 percent, meaning that two out of every 100 flights is delayed, above the 97 percent reported in October but still short of the firm's target.

http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/0...g-dreamliner-idINL5N0KY0RQ20140124

Quote:
"I'll tell you that's not where we want the airplane to be, we're not satisfied with that reliability level of the airplane, the 777 today flies at 99.4 percent ... and that's the benchmark that the 787 needs to attain," Fleming said.
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Unflug
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:13 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 28):
The 787 reliability rate is now around 98 percent, meaning that two out of every 100 flights is delayed, above the 97 percent reported in October but still short of the firm's target.

Regarding the discussion about Norwegian in this thread the following is interesting, from your source:

Fleming said any compensation issue with Norwegian Air would be discussed privately but the plane maker takes responsibility for the technical faults.

"When our airplane breaks and our service doesn't deliver on what it's supposed to, we take responsibility," he said.


Correct approach not to blame Norwegians schedule, kudos.
 
glbltrvlr
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:21 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 8):
Boeing promised to increase the 787's dispatch reliability up into the 777's range within 6 months. Any word on how the efforts are coming along?
From Bloomberg:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...o-improve-further-boeing-says.html
The composite-material aircraft’s dependability now is about 98 percent...The 777 has a 99.3 percent dispatch reliability rate, the highest among all twin-aisle airplanes in service today, according to the Boeing website.
 
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Mortyman
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:37 pm

From an article in Aftenposten ( Norwegian newspaper ) today:

Norwegian own statistics show that:

* The Dreamliner has been delayed 239 times during 4 months ( september - december )

* Norwegian has had to rent replacement aircraft 72 times


http://www.aftenposten.no/okonomi/Dr...-maneder-7445940.html#.UuJ3BZXKxpg


During the period from September to December, the company experienced a total of 239 delays on its long-haul operations to New York, Bangkok and Fort Laude Dale in Florida.

A fresh statistic that Norwegian has made for Aftenposten, is showing disruption after the company put their own brand new Dreamliner aircraft in service. From the end of May, when the long routes started, to September the company had to hire aircraft to operate long routes because the Boeing 787 aircraft were grounded after fire in the plane's batteries.

Replacemnet Aircraft:

Overview company has made ​​shows that Norwegian since September, after the company itself took over flying with its new Dreamliner aircraft, has had to hire replacement airplane to fly passengers home and out to their destination as much as 72 times. As a rule, the Portuguese Hi Fly has been hired, and recently also Euro Atlantic has been used.

Now Boeing promises better monitoring and improved operational stability.

[Edited 2014-01-24 06:42:38]
 
cfischaleck
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:43 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 28):
The 787 reliability rate is now around 98 percent

Do you know which time frame is used for this statistic ?
 
tortugamon
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:02 pm

98% is good news. By all measures the 777 has been very reliable and it took that frame 4 years to get to 99% giving them almost two more years to get that additional percentage to be on pace. Hopefully they keep up the improvements.

tortugamon
 
phxa340
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:12 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 33):
two more years to get that additional percentage to be on pace.

From what I have read getting from 97 to 98 percent was relatively easy via software updates. To get from 98 to 99 percent we are talking about redesigning faulty partys and replacing sub par suppliers with higher tier ones.

I really believe that most of the reliability issues of the 787 can be traced to an over taxed supply chain that is meeting demand by lowering QC.
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:07 am

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 34):
From what I have read getting from 97 to 98 percent was relatively easy via software updates. To get from 98 to 99 percent we are talking about redesigning faulty partys and replacing sub par suppliers with higher tier ones.

I think the 98% was achieved by more familiarity with the airplane and how to fix maintenance issues, especially by the two main players so far, ANA and JAL -- the major software update won't be certified until mid 2014.
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:25 am

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 35):
I think the 98% was achieved by more familiarity with the airplane and how to fix maintenance issues

That sounds plausible but ANA and JL have both had the 787 on property for a while. Something obviously happened from October of last year when DR was 97% to now in addition to familiarity.
 
hkcanadaexpat
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:34 am

Also worth noting that ANA, JAL, LAN, United, LOT, British Airways and Jetstar currently all keep hot spare 787s on standby which helps keep DR high even when aircrafts have issues. On the other hand, Ethiopian, Air India, Qatar, Thomson, China Southern, Norwegian, Hainan, Aeromexico, Royal Brunei and Jetairfly all have full block scheduled usage of their fleet.

I'm sure that simply based on that the former will have a higher DR than the later. But DR is only part of the story. Profitability is another. I'm sure airlines weight it both ways between having hot spares on standby versus the risk of flight cancellation/equipment substitution/reputation.

A
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:08 pm

Quoting hkcanadaexpat (Reply 37):
Also worth noting that ANA, JAL, LAN, United, LOT, British Airways and Jetstar currently all keep hot spare 787s on standby which helps keep DR high even when aircrafts have issues

But this does not help if there is a problem at the turn around end. I have been watching BA at YYZ over the last couple of months and any departure delays not related to late arrival are most likely due to weather.
 
SCL767
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Sun Jan 26, 2014 7:58 am

LAN flight 533 (CC-BBD) operating JFK-SCL on 24JAN14 diverted to MIA early yesterday morning: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/L...history/20140125/0100Z/KJFK/KMIA). The a/c was later towed to LAN Cargo's ramp at MIA for maintenance. PAX affected were routed onto LA583, LA591, LA593, LA503 and LA501. CC-BBD is now scheduled to depart MIA for SCL at 07:10.
 
kengo
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:21 pm

JAL B787 that was taken out of service on Jan. 14 due to a battery issue will be put back to service tomorrow on HND-SFO route. A new battery was installed and safety checks were performed before determining it was safe to return to service.

In Japanese only

http://www.aviationwire.jp/archives/31588
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:31 pm

It's a first: all three Norwegian 787s flying together.

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BfVMPP4CEAAWfpw.png:large

http://twitter.com/flightradar24/status/429333164553564160
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:43 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 41):

It's a first: all three Norwegian 787s flying together.

Honestly, im sure ive seen all three up at the same time before. I think the fact that all three are on time is what makes it note worthy.
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factsonly
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:10 pm

On Friday evening 31 Jan. 2014, JetAirFly B787 Dreamliner OO-JDL got stuck AOG in Cancun on its way to BRU as one of its antennae malfunctioned and no spare was immediately available.

A 48-hour delay is expected as a replacement part is sought. The 246 passengers are all booked in hotels until the aircraft is airworthy again.

The aircraft and its passengers are now expected back in BRU on Monday 3 Febr. 2014 with a 48 hour delay.


www.jetairfly.com
 
argonaught
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:15 pm

Quoting Unflug (Reply 14):
Reducing the risk of an explosion by deleting images seems a bit over-ambitious

Made me think of one of those witty German expression, the 'Vogel-Strauss-Politik', that lose much of their flavor when translated into English
 
NAV20
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:46 pm

Quoting argonaught (Reply 44):
one of those witty German expression, the 'Vogel-Strauss-Politik

Learned a bit of German in my time, argonaught, but all that means to me is 'Bird-Strauss-Politics.' Fully accept that it may be witty in German, but can't see why? Please explain?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
Unflug
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:14 pm

Quoting Nav20 (Reply 45):
Learned a bit of German in my time, argonaught, but all that means to me is 'Bird-Strauss-Politics.' Fully accept that it may be witty in German, but can't see why? Please explain?

Strauß = ostrich

Just use google or bing to look for images with the search term "ostrich politics" or "Vogel Strauß Politik", you'll get some nice results  
 
NAV20
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:23 pm

Problem solved, Unflug.

"Danke schon!"
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
argonaught
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:26 pm

Nav20: The English indirect equivalent would be 'Head in the Sand', but IMO the original 'Ostrich Politics' has an additional layer of irony.

A few more German words that can (arguably) challenge any translator into English: Kaput, Gestalt, Zeitnot  

(This is getting badly off-topic)
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:55 am

LOT had a small issue with the on-board computer of one of its 787s:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...d-dreamliner-idUSBREA130AT20140204
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.

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