kengo
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:08 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 49):
LOT had a small issue with the on-board computer of one of its 787s

A bit irony that some issues related to 787 make it to the press and some do not. Nice to know that the press is still have their eyes fixed on the 787.  
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:15 am

All three flight management computer systems failed simultaneously on an Air India 787.

http://avherald.com/h?article=46f971be&opt=0
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
LondonCity
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:58 am

There's further information here on the Air India incident:


www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-inciden...ue-to-glitches-20140206-322wh.html
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:14 pm

"Since late last year, Boeing 787 Dreamliner fuselage sections from North Charleston, S.C., have arrived at the Everett final assembly line seriously incomplete with wiring and hydraulics lines missing, according to multiple sources in the factory.

The poorly done work out of Charleston threatens to undermine the company’s plans to deliver 10 Dreamliners a month and fulfill the much-delayed jet program’s original promise.

“It’s snowballing. The planes are getting worse out of Charleston,” said one senior Everett employee who oversees the production status of the airplanes"

http://seattletimes.com/html/busines...022830424_boeingcharlestonxml.html

How is that possible? Hydraulic lines missing?! I'd bet the rework and rework again means large cost overuns. Boeing today is like 70's Detroit car industry, soon a crisis company. On the other hand, possible good stock for shorting!
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:19 pm

Quoting argonaught (Reply 48):
A few more German words that can (arguably) challenge any translator into English: Kaput, Gestalt, Zeitnot

Fair point, argonaught - especially 'kaput.' The English translation is probably 'finished' or 'stuffed' or whatever - but no English word conveys the absolute finality of 'kaput.'  

Thankfully, the term doesn't look like applying to either the B787 or the A350, though?  Smile

[Edited 2014-02-10 07:21:40]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:51 pm

Quoting hkcanadaexpat (Reply 37):
Also worth noting that ANA, JAL, LAN, United, LOT, British Airways and Jetstar currently all keep hot spare 787s on standby which helps keep DR high even when aircrafts have issues.

Is the DR airline or a/c specific? Assumption being what it is, I would assume that if an a/c has an issue its stats are maintained apart from the airline, or am I assuming too much?
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:54 pm

It seems Air India's B787s have not been approved for low visability landings at Delhi and maybe other Indian airports too.

Yesterday three international B787 flights which were supposed to land in Delhi were diverted to Mumbai because of poor visability.

Some 700 passengers were inconvenienced.



timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Not-geared-to-land-in-low-visibility-3-Air-India-Dreamliners-diverted-to-Mumbai/articleshow/30127948.cms
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:30 pm

Quoting tim73 (Reply 53):
'kaput.'  

Thankfully, the term doesn't look like applying to either the B787 or the A350, though?  

Nah, for as long as The Grand Duopoly keep selling the A320s and the B737s in their thousands, I don't envisage any desperate forced moves (Zugzwang!!!), like pulling the plug on their newest designs.

In the worst case the 787 and 350 could end up turning into self-imposed white elephants a-la the 380.

I am a lot more concerned about the fate of the newer 100-150 seater jetliners, made by other manufacturers. Will they ever log enough orders to recoup the 5-10 gigadollars it takes to develop and perfect an airliner these days? Unless they huddle together in some way, which we may be seeing the first signs of between Bombardier and UAC.
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:38 pm

Quoting tim73 (Reply 53):
How is that possible? Hydraulic lines missing?! I'd bet the rework and rework again means large cost overuns. Boeing today is like 70's Detroit car industry, soon a crisis company. On the other hand, possible good stock for shorting!

My brother who worked for MDC said that in the 90s!
 
kengo
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:10 am

Quoting LondonCity (Reply 56):
It seems Air India's B787s have not been approved for low visability landings at Delhi and maybe other Indian airports too.

That seems a bit odd considering the 787s are equipped with HUD, which suppose to help greatly in low visibility conditions.
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:53 am

Quoting kengo (Reply 59):
That seems a bit odd considering the 787s are equipped with HUD, which suppose to help greatly in low visibility conditions.

It could be because the pilots don't have the rating to land in CAT-III conditions.
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:05 am

Quoting blrsea (Reply 60):
It could be because the pilots don't have the rating to land in CAT-III conditions.

Yes, that is my belief but the article makes it sound like it is the fault(or lack of equipment) on the 787 and not with AI's operational issues. All these could have been avoided if AI took the time to satisfy DGCA to become CAT-III compliant. Are there reasons why AI has not done this already considering they have been flying the 787s for about 17 months and knowing, under certain conditions, Delhi requiring CAT-III landings?
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:03 am

I heard that JQ's 788 VH-VKB has a broken wing box, and will be non-operational for a long time.

Does anyone have any information on this issue?
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:51 am

Spoilers really do seem to be causing a lot of niggling issues at the moment:
http://articles.timesofindia.indiati...amliner-brand-new-plane-boeing-787

Anyone know more about what kind of fault modes spoilers have on an airplane like the 787?
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:49 am

A quote from the above link:


A senior AI official said that the airline is seeking compensation from Boeing for three counts of the Dreamliner — the over three-year delay in delivery of the aircraft; grounding of this aircraft for four months last year and for failure to meet "guaranteed performance" standards of fuel consumption as the plane has not proven to be as fuel efficient as it was promised to be and was the deal-clincher for AI placing order for 27 of them.


I have not seen anyone else state that the performance is below spec and without others i am inclined not to believe this to be the case.
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:34 pm

Quoting Dalavia (Reply 62):

That seems false as it very recently flew to Bali (yesterday). In addition Qantas has verified there was no heavy landed and the grounding in Cairns was due to certification.

Quoting StTim (Reply 64):

I think that article is taken out of context. The early birds are not to spec ... The later birds are performing better than thought. AI is difficult to figure out. Some days they love the 787 others they hate it. Seems like they need the PR department to come up with a more consistent strategy.
 
kengo
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:11 pm

Quoting StTim (Reply 64):
A quote from the above link:


A senior AI official said that the airline is seeking compensation from Boeing for three counts of the Dreamliner — the over three-year delay in delivery of the aircraft; grounding of this aircraft for four months last year and for failure to meet "guaranteed performance" standards of fuel consumption as the plane has not proven to be as fuel efficient as it was promised to be and was the deal-clincher for AI placing order for 27 of them.

I thought AI and Boeing worked out the compensation issues, at least the 3 year delay portion of it. Why the repeat of the same issue over and over? Maybe it is not AI but the Indian media are at fault for repeating old stuffs over and over everytime a new issue surfaces with one of AI's 787s.
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:57 pm

Quoting bobdino (Reply 63):

I recall that there is some type of specific procedure for deploying trailing edge flaps and ground spoilers simultaneously to avoid physical damage. It has something to do with the way the spoilers droop or dip slightly to maintain clearance between them and the upper flap surface. If this procedure is not followed correctly, damage occurs.

Of course I could be wrong ...
It's better to ask a stupid question during training, rather than make a REALLY stupid mistake later on!
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:05 pm

Japan said on Friday the battery in a Dreamliner jet that spewed white smoke last month could have reached temperatures as high as 660 Celsius (1,220 Fahrenheit).

http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/ove...ner-battery-hit-660-114100213.html
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:05 am

RAT blade problem in AI 787?

http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/ge-says-air-indias-787-182308691.html

[Edited 2014-02-24 22:06:54]
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Fri Feb 28, 2014 11:06 am

British Airways says technical reliability is ahead of expectations.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...80-and-787-economics-walsh-396458/
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:33 pm

News reports say on 2/24/14 AI 121 DEL-FRA flight (VT-ANE ???) had a transponder failure.
 
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PW100
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:17 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 70):
British Airways says technical reliability is ahead of expectations.

Yes I noticed that too. I have been browsing BA The Source since beginning of this year, mainly to compare 787 to 380. Both have absolutely stellar records. Seems BA maintenance is really top notch . . . they don't need GoldCare.

If you know what you're doing (and don't have very early line numbers) both 787 and 380 can be flown at extremely high reliability numbers. Very good to see that not everybody has 787 reliability problems. Kudos to the BA engineering folks!   

PW100
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:35 pm

Quoting PW100 (Reply 72):
BA maintenance is really top notch . . . they don't need GoldCare

BA is a gold care provider to Boeing. Gold care is very expensive, and is of no value to any major airline with its own engineering dept.
 
iahmark
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:57 pm

I have always wondered about this question; how it will the 787 perform in hot and high airports for transatlantic flights; is it going to be an improvement over the A330-200 and 767-200 in places like DEN, JNB, MEX, BOG, even UIO, etc. especially in engine-out situations?

Just wondering since it supposedly has a better performance (20%) over the 767 series; also since all the 4 engines planes will be out of the picture soon (except A380 and some 747-8’s) this may affect service to some city pairs since twins will take over all the routes.
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:06 pm

Quoting iahmark (Reply 74):
I have always wondered about this question; how it will the 787 perform in hot and high airports for transatlantic flights; is it going to be an improvement over the A330-200 and 767-200 in places like DEN, JNB, MEX, BOG, even UIO, etc. especially in engine-out situations?

The 787-8 is an excellent hot and high performer, but so are both the A330-200 and the 767-200ER. All three can generally lift MTOW from all but the most difficult conditions. Performance data on the 787-9 isn't public yet, and doesn't exist for the 787-10. But it's fair to expect that they will be worse (especially the 787-10), as they will have higher weight and shallower rotation angles.

I think a more interesting hot and high comparison (but one not on topic here) will be between the A350-1000 and the 777-8X and -9X. That's a size class that has not done particularly well in difficult conditions since twins took it over, and it will be interesting to see whether either manufacturer can improve matters.
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:19 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 75):
The 787-8 is an excellent hot and high performer, but so are both the A330-200 and the 767-200ER. All three can generally lift MTOW from all but the most difficult conditions. Performance data on the 787-9 isn't public yet, and doesn't exist for the 787-10. But it's fair to expect that they will be worse (especially the 787-10), as they will have higher weight and shallower rotation angles.

Heard thru the grapevine KLM has been mulling the idea of serving AMS-BOG-AMS but the restriction imposed by BOG altitude make the 777 (200 and 300ER’s)dubious…
Same airline was thinking of serving AMS-UIO-AMS but studies showed engine out performance issues with the 777’s so nothing for now….

Mexico is another candidate when AF discontinues their 747 and would switch to 777…
.
Could the 787-8/9’s do any of these routes with almost no restrictions? I ask this because KLM has some 787’s on order for delivery 2015 onwards…
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:34 pm

Quoting iahmark (Reply 76):
Heard thru the grapevine KLM has been mulling the idea of serving AMS-BOG-AMS but the restriction imposed by BOG altitude make the 777 (200 and 300ER’s)dubious…
Same airline was thinking of serving AMS-UIO-AMS but studies showed engine out performance issues with the 777’s so nothing for now….

Those are a couple of the most brutal airports in the world. BOG is at 8300' but has only a 12500' runway. UIO is at 7400' with a 13500' runway. Not sure there's any twin widebody that can fly reliably from those airports to AMS. A 787-8 with high thrust rating could get out of there with a full passenger load and fly to the US every time, but Europe would be iffy. A 787-9 (or 777) is going to do worse.
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:46 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 77):

I suspect a lightly loaded 778 wouldn't have too much trouble at any of these problem Latin American airports.

tortugamon
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:51 pm

The question is how willing are these carriers to upgrade the engines . Put a 72k engine on instead of the standard 64K and it makes a big difference . Using Bogota as an example, the 788 with 64k engines is limited to about 204t TOW. With a 242 seat load this will take you about 12hrs. Put 72K's on it and you will get ~218t .
You get about what you pay for.
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Fri Feb 28, 2014 11:17 pm

Quoting argonaught (Reply 57):
In the worst case the 787 and 350 could end up turning into self-imposed white elephants a-la the 380.

The 787 cirtainly could not end up turning into a self-imposed white elephant a-la the 380 because it has already turned into a self-imposed white elephants - not a-la the 380 - but much worse than the 380!
 
LondonCity
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:45 am

Latest news is that an Air India B787 due to fly DEL-BHX yesterday, was grounded with spoiler issues. Apparently it's the same B787 aircraft that was grounded in Tokyo recently.



http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...eshow/31243372.cms?intenttarget=no
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:04 pm

That's the second spoiler issue on an Air India 787 I believe.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:06 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 78):

I suspect a lightly loaded 778 wouldn't have too much trouble at any of these problem Latin American airports.

That is not the issue. The issue is whether or not any twin can do it with a full load.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:35 pm

ANA has flown 18,958 flights since June 1st of last year with 78 "issues" . This means 99.589% of their 787 flights have no "issues'. (Before anybody jumps on me, I'm not saying this is their dispatch reliability rate.) The vast majority of their issues in the last few months are brake or flight control malfunctions which I'm hoping will be cured when the new software becomes available.

https://secure.ana-g.com/anacom/cgi-bin/787/pdf/service_e.pdf
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:23 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 83):
That is not the issue. The issue is whether or not any twin can do it with a full load.

Probably not. But neither can all quads. At BOG a A346 would give up ~40t of TOW and a 569t A380 ~ 47t.
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:40 pm

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 85):
Quoting SEPilot (Reply 83):
That is not the issue. The issue is whether or not any twin can do it with a full load.

Probably not. But neither can all quads. At BOG a A346 would give up ~40t of TOW and a 569t A380 ~ 47t.

Then the question is whether or not a twin can do as well. I suspect the high thrust 788 probably can.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:21 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 86):
I suspect the high thrust 788 probably can.

Correct. It takes 74K of engine to do it.
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:54 am

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 84):

Their dispatch reliability rate is pretty good as well, so I am assuming that NH was hit quite hard by the typhoons and the wx issues that have plagued the US this past year.
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:47 pm

Quoting PW100 (Reply 72):
I have been browsing BA The Source since beginning of this year, mainly to compare 787 to 380. Both have absolutely stellar records.

It may have helped that BA gave the 787 a fairly gentle introduction to service with [until today anyway] only 3 relatively midhaul transatlantic flights per day at most with a fleet of four aircraft.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:10 pm

India Asks Boeing to Fix Frequent Snags With Dreamliners:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...equent-snags-with-dreamliners.html
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:20 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 90):
India Asks Boeing to Fix Frequent Snags With Dreamliners:

There is something wrong at some of the 787 operators with their capability to operate an aircraft. Why can some carriers operate the aircraft with no untoward issues and others are forever complaining about this or that issue . They are the same airplane, same systems, same whatever part you want to name yet they work virtually perfectly for one carrier and allegedly not for another. I don't believe it is good luck rather I am virtually sure that it is superior management.
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:58 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 90):
India Asks Boeing to Fix Frequent Snags With Dreamliners:

I think India should stop blaming others and instead, have NH send some of their mechanics to India, because it seems like NH hasn't had many problems recently with their planes   
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
EnviableOne
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:08 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 90):
India Asks Boeing to Fix Frequent Snags With Dreamliners:

Me thinks some BA service teams to the subcontinent, admittedly their 787 fleet is still small, but no issues yet
A wise man speaks because has something to say, a fool speaks because he has to say something - Plato
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:51 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 92):
Quoting enviableOne (Reply 93):

How would great mechanics of NH and BA magically address premature component failures? VT-ANI had an issue with RAT while in Japan. VT-ANE had complete transponder loss more than once, recently over Afghanistan. Not a great situation for a civilian airline over a active conflict zone.

Look at the last three diversions/turnbacks

1/19/14 VT-ANE LHR-DEL returned to LHR because of complete loss of transponders
2/5/14 VT-ANH MEL-DEL diverted to KUL because all three FMCs failed
2/13/14 VT-ANI NRT-DEL RAT failure noticed after push back.

It would be naive to blame to Qantas/ANA/BA line maintenance crew because they touched those planes, correct!

BTW, NH has just line maintenance, MRO is outsourced to Singapore.

[Edited 2014-03-04 05:42:39]
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:35 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 94):

How would great mechanics of NH and BA magically address premature component failures? VT-ANI had an issue with RAT while in Japan. VT-ANE had complete transponder loss more than once, recently over Afghanistan. Not a great situation for a civilian airline over a active conflict zone.

No Magic, just regular checks picking up a potential failure before it actually fails and avoiding issues over a war zone.
A wise man speaks because has something to say, a fool speaks because he has to say something - Plato
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:45 pm

Quoting enviableOne (Reply 95):
No Magic, just regular checks picking up a potential failure before it actually fails and avoiding issues over a war zone.

So, same logic applies to BA line maintenance.

1/19/14 VT-ANE LHR-DEL returned to LHR because of complete loss of transponders
 
planewasted
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:54 pm

It is pretty common that quality varies a lot from unit to unit early in the production phase.
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:44 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 96):
So, same logic applies to BA line maintenance.

1/19/14 VT-ANE LHR-DEL returned to LHR because of complete loss of transponders

Dont quite understand the connection between BA line maintenance and an Air India B787?
Oh, the aircraft was at LHR? Where BA main base is?

Do you believe that BA line maintenance maintains all aircraft at LHR?
 
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RE: How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 3)

Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:28 pm

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 91):
They are the same airplane, same systems, same whatever part you want to name yet they work virtually perfectly for one carrier and allegedly not for another. I don't believe it is good luck rather I am virtually sure that it is superior management.

With no factual basis, I wonder if the above is in fact true. Given all we have heard about incomplete work on items delivered to the FAL, is it certain that each aircraft exits the FAL in an identical state to its siblings?

From what we read, it could be that some items that arrived at the FAL were in a different state than their predecessors and successors, it's up to the guys in the FAL to bring them all up to the same level.

It could account for the difference in experiences by the earlier operators!

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