flyboy80
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TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sat Jan 18, 2014 10:48 pm

I did some searches, and unfortunately wasn't able to locate exact information.

Curious to TWA's fleet, and route network for the last ten years of operations were, as well as information pertaining to focus cities, hub sizes etc. I realize it probably varied some even within the time frame, but looking for an overall and somewhat detailed Idea.

Thanks.
 
TPA0822
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:11 am

A few tidbits at TWA's end:

LAX became its second focus city (SJU the other?) and had an American Eagle codeshare to seven California markets from LAX.

LAX-JFK 4x daily, LAX-DCA 1x, JFK-SFO 2x.

STL saw 717 service to thirteen markets - ATL, CID, DFW, DAY, DSM, Houston (not too sure if it was IAH or HOU), LIT, MKE, MSP, BNA, PHX, TUL, and ICT.
 
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:26 am

TW served Houston at HOU. I believe they inherited that route from the acquisition of OZ.
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Viscount724
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:17 am

Quoting flyboy80 (Thread starter):
and route network for the last ten years of operations

You'll find several TWA route maps from the early 1990s here:
http://www.departedflights.com/routemaps9b.html
 
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:31 am

Quoting TPA0822 (Reply 1):
STL saw 717 service to thirteen markets - ATL, CID, DFW, DAY, DSM, Houston (not too sure if it was IAH or HOU), LIT, MKE, MSP, BNA, PHX, TUL, and ICT.

CLT saw 717 service as well.
RJ85, F70, E135, E140, E145, E70, E75, E90, CR2, CR7, CR9, 717, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 744, 752, 753, 762, 772, 77E, 77W, 789, 319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 343, 359, 388
 
CIDFlyer
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:36 am

I know STL was quite a large hub, between 500 and 600 flights...
 
flyboy80
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:52 am

what were there crew bases during these times, and how large were they? Curious if anyone knows how large their FA List was at the time of the merger, and I assume the largest base was STL, closely followed by JFK?
 
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:32 am

Quoting TPA0822 (Reply 1):
STL saw 717 service to thirteen markets

Make that 14. They also flew them to MLI at the very end.
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ImperialEagle
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:10 am

I have fond memories of numerous flights taken when TW had a mini-hub at ATL. Some of my favorite DC -9-50 flights.
They were really trying hard to have a go at it. VJ just killed 'em. It was a shame. One of the International Airliner shows back in the 1990's was at STL and I did the tour of the base. Sims,etc. I'm glad I went and have fond memories of that.

My fondest memories of TW are the stories the late Capt. Rob Buck used to tell me. He wrote TW's Constellation Operating Manual. He made a copy of the original and signed it off to me. A cherished TW collectable. I am still in touch with his son who retired from DL. Great people.

Like all the others, now long gone, I really miss TW.
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:19 am

Quoting type-rated (Reply 2):
TW served Houston at HOU. I believe they inherited that route from the acquisition of OZ.
Quoting TPA0822 (Reply 1):
Houston (not too sure if it was IAH or HOU),

They moved to IAH at the end...the 717s served IAH.
HOUSTON, TEXAS
 
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:24 am

I flew TW HOU-STL-ORD in 1989 or so and it was a DC-9 aircraft. So the move must have taken place after they received their 717's. I always thought it was kind of strange for TW to be at HOU. But that's where OZ flew so.... I always thought TW would be better at IAH.
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chepos
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:29 am

SJU was a focus city towards the end, they flew to JFK, BOS, FLL, MCO, LAX, SDQ, AUA and STL. I might be missing some but these are the ones I recall. Can not recall is there was a F/A base at the time of the SJU focus city.
I believe they also flew BQN-EWR.
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:45 am

Quoting flyboy80 (Thread starter):
Curious to TWA's fleet,

I can provide some insight on TW's fleet planning and management from 1995-2000. It was an account I helped manage that gradually became more active.

In the mid '90's, TW took action to address a fleet renewal plan. The 747s, 727s, and L-1011s, were retired with DC-9s on their way out. The future was to be centered around the MD-80 series, 752, and 767 variants, as was executed with multiple orders. Gaps in the 110 seater and flagship widebody areas remained.

Going into 1996, TW had some positive momentum. Speaking privy from the MDC side, plans to order 50 MD-83s were shaping up and in the works. Additionally, TW was looking very closely at the MD-95; hoping for J7 (Valujet) pricing, (if packaged with a large MD-83 order was not unlikely). TW even had discussions related to the MD-11ER replacing the aging 741s, but those discussions never went beyond the early stages as the NBs were the immediate need.

Then flight 800 happened. The flagship widebody replacement was shelved indefinitely - the role would simply cease after the 747 retirement. And the MD-83 order was reduced to 15 firm, as the state of the business couldn't warrant further investment. Eventually, TW was able to place a firm order for 24 MD-83s in Q2 1998, which became the final aircraft built off of the line. Later that year, the then renamed 717 was finally ordered, with immediate deliveries beginning in 2000. Lastly, a hasty Airbus obligation from years earlier was resolved with a fair A318 order... justified to investors as the long/thin solution.

Long story short, eventually the P&L caught up to TW and acquisition or liquidation became inevitable.
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stlgph
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:02 am

Quoting flyboy80 (Reply 6):

Indianapolis also received 717 services.

in addition to their crew bases, they also had "satellite" base assignments.

i know Denver, Tampa, and Chicago O'Hare were such airport bases.
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:15 am

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 5):
I know STL was quite a large hub, between 500 and 600 flights...

It was, because it was Ozark's hub. But before the merger with Ozark, TWA didn't have that many routes out of STL. I'm not saying they had only a few, I'm saying they didn't have as many as they had after they took over Ozark. Wasn't it the time Carl Icahn was the CEO? It was at that time STL became the main hub, from 1986 until 2001 when American merged with them. Besides STL, JFK was also a main hub.

In the late 80's/early 90s, TWA had 727s, DC-9 and MD-80s which they got from Ozark, L-1011s, 747s and 767s. The latter three were used on transcon routes out of JFK to LAX and SFO as well as TATL flights out of JFK to Europe. I believe that STL-LAX at some point saw L-1011 service. Before the merger with Ozark, TWA had 727s but no DC-9 or MD-80. Throughout the 90s, TWA like most major US airlines continued to operate the 727 for the rest of the decade, but flew mostly ex-Ozark DC-9s and MD-80s on domestic routes out of its STL hub, though a few brand new MD-80s and 757s were ordered from McDD and Boeing respectively in the late 90s.
1996 was a catastrophic year for TWA because of the flight 800 disaster (it was a 747) in New York, but on the other hand it was the year it unveiled its then new corporate livery looking more professional, stylish and classy than the plain red and white livery dating from the 70s. In the late 90s, TWA was renewing its fleet by phasing out the 727s, L-1011s and 747s, and replacing them with MD-80s, 757s and 767s. 717s were on their way too, those were to replace the ex-Ozark DC-9s. So in 2000, just a year or two before the end, the last 727 was retired, and so were the last 747 and L-1011, the fleet consisted of MD-80s, 757s, 767s and 717s. The last DC-9-30 left in 2001 when the merger with American was finalized. TWA was officially out of business in 2002, though at American, one could spot ex-TWA 757s still painted in TWA livery. TWA took delivery of the very final MD-80 aircraft to come out of the Long Beach CA plant in 2000.

From 2002 till the end of the 2000s, STL was a hub for American, seeing mostly MD-80 aircraft on domestic routes. The hub was gradually dismantled during the second half of the decade. STL is no longer an AA hub, most slots have been transferred to Southwest (please don't hesitate to correct me on that if I'm wrong). American flies now only to the major hubs and focus cities from STL. Even if American didn't agree to merge with TWA early in 2001, TWA would have ceased operations. They would not have survived 9-11. Would they have stayed alive if they didn't merge with American and if there wasn't 9-11? Maybe yes, but not much longer.

Ben Soriano

[Edited 2014-01-18 21:48:16]
Ben Soriano
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:06 am

To add further, as it relates to the MD-82/83s, TW took delivery of 87 new-builds directly from McDonnell Douglas. These were delivered over two separate periods, 1983-88 (29 MD-82s, 4 MD-83s) and 1993-99 (54 MD-83s). Five MD-83s were built in China (YOM 1993).

Quoting American 767 (Reply 14):

   Good, thorough post, Ben.

One thing I must correct for the record:

Quoting American 767 (Reply 14):
and MD-80s which they got from Ozark,
TW got it's first MD-80s from McDonnell Douglas three years before the first ex-OZ frame. In fact, TW was well into their infamous AA-like trial-lease arrangement with MDC, which included 20 MD-82 deliveries from 1983-85. Only 4 MD-82s were acquired from OZ.

One thing is clear: Much like DL and AA, TW was a loyal Douglas client...the DC-9/MD-80 relationship did not start with Ozark.

Quoting American 767 (Reply 14):
TWA like most major US airlines continued to operate the 727 for the rest of the decade, but flew mostly ex-Ozark DC-9s and MD-80s on domestic routes out of its STL hub, though a few brand new MD-80s and -757s were ordered from McDD and Boeing respectively in the late 90s.
TW systematically replaced their 727's with the MD-80, on a gradual step-by-step basis. This began with the phase-out of early-build 721s as MD-82 deliveries piled up by the mid '80s. A decade later, the final MD-83 order finished the job for the remaining 722s. Setting the table for the 727's retirement in 2000.

Quoting American 767 (Reply 14):
1996 was a catastrophic year for TWA because of the flight 800 disaster (it was a 747) in New York, but on the other hand it was the year it unveiled its then new corporate livery looking more professional, stylish and classy than the plain red and white livery dating from the 70s. In the late 90s,

The year 1996 was the tale of two halves for TW. For proper context, the boost TW received with the livery unveiling preceded flight 800. And the momentum from operating in the black and placing new aircraft orders was sadly lost thereafter.

[Edited 2014-01-19 01:08:13]
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thegoldenargosy
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:32 am

From the December 20, 2000 timetable:

Trans World Airlines - "One Mission. Yours."

Boston
Mainline:
Aruba, Montego Bay, St. Louis, Providenciales, Puerto Plata, St. Louis, San Juan

TWExpress (Operated by Trans States)
New York-JFK


Los Angeles
Kona, New York-JFK, St. Louis, San Juan, Washington-National

Newark
Aguadilla, Cancun, Punta Cana, St. Louis

New York-JFK
Mainline:
Aguadilla, Antigua, Aruba, Cairo, Cancun, Freeport, Lisbon (discontined January 13, 2001), Los Angeles, Miami, Milan-Malpensa (Discontinued January 13, 2001), Nassau, Orange County, Orlando, Paris-Charles de Gaulle, Providenciales, Puerto Plata, Punta Cana, Riyadh (via CAI), St. Louis, St. Maarten, San Francisco, San Juan, Santo Domingo, Tel Aviv

TWExpress (Operated by Trans States)
Boston, Norfolk, Richmond, Washington-National

Portland (OR)
Anchorage, St. Louis, Seattle/Tacoma

St. Louis
Mainline:
Albuquerque, Anchorage (via PDX), Atlanta, Austin, Baltimore, Boston, Cancun, Cedar Rapids, Charlotte, Chicago-O’Hare, Cleveland, Colorado Springs, Columbus, Cozumel, Dallas/Fort Worth, Dayton, Denver, Des Moines, Detroit, Fort Lauderdale, Fort Myers, Hartford, Honolulu, Houston-Intercontinental, Indianapolis, Ixtapa/Zihuatanejo, Jacksonville, Kahului, Kansas City, Las Vegas, Little Rock, London-Gatwick, Los Angeles, Louisville, McAllen (via AUS), Miami, Milwaukee, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Moline/Quad Cities, Montego Bay, Nashville, Newark, New Orleans, New York-JFK, New York-LaGuardia, Norfolk, Oklahoma City, Omaha, Ontario, Orange County, Orlando, Paris-Charles de Gaulle, Philadelphia, Phoenix, Pittsburgh, Portland (OR), Puerto Vallarta, Raleigh/Durham, Richmond, Sacramento, Salt Lake City, San Antonio, San Diego, San Francisco, San Jose (CA), San Juan, Seattle/Tacoma, Sioux Falls, Steamboat Springs, Tampa, Tulsa, Vancouver, Washington-Dulles, Washington-National, Wichita

TWExpress (Chautauqua, Corporate Airlines, Trans States)
Bloomington (IL), Burlington (IA), Cape Girardeau, Champaign/Urbana, Charleston (SC), Cincinnati, Columbia (MO), Decatur (IL), Evansville, Fayetteville/NW Arkansas, Fort Leonard Wood, Fort Wayne, Grand Rapids, Greenville/Spartenburg, Jackson (MS), Joplin, Knoxville, Lexington, Lincoln, Madison, Marion (IL), Memphis, Paducah, Peoria, Quincy, Rochester (MN), Shreveport, Sioux City, South Bend, Springfield (IL), Springfield (MO), Toronto, Waterloo,

San Juan
Aruba, Boston, Fort Lauderdale, Los Angeles, New York-JFK, Orlando, St. Louis, Santo Domingo


Ambassador Clubs: Albuquerque, Boston, Chicago-O’Hare, Columbus, Dallas/Fort Worth, Dayton, Kansas City, London-Gatwick, Los Angeles, Milan-Malpensa, Newark, New Orleans, New York-JFK, Paris-de Gaulle, Phoenix, St. Louis, San Diego, San Francisco, Seattle/Tacoma, Washington-National

City Ticket Offices: Alexandria (Egypt), Cairo, Jerusalem, Lisbon, London, Los Angeles, Milan, New York City, Paris, Rome, St. Louis, Tel Aviv

Fleet:
Mainline
717, 757-200, 767-200, 767-300, DC-9-30/40/50, MD-80

TWExpress
Chautauqua ERJ-145, Saab 340
Corporate Jetstream 31
Trans States ATR-42, ATR-72, Jetstream 41

[Edited 2014-01-19 02:39:02]

[Edited 2014-01-19 02:42:17]
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:44 am

There were to be 3 TWA "focus cities", the first being SJU, then LAX was added. They never implemented the third and I've always wondered where it would have been. My educated guess was BOS as they were operating some weird weekend flying to some warm weather markets, I want to say CUN and somewhere in the Dominican Republic. I think they were operating BOS-CDG till the end but I could be wrong on that one. They had about 5-6 gates at BOS so some additional flying certainly could have been handled.

Also, an alliance was announced with America West which was never implemented. That certainly would have boosted TWA's domestic reach, with LAS/PHX complementing STL.
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:41 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 12):
TW even had discussions related to the MD-11ER

Wow, I would love to have seen the M11 in TWs last livery.

Quoting American 767 (Reply 14):
it was the year it unveiled its then new corporate livery looking more professional, stylish and classy

One of the most fantastically created liveries ever applied to the fuselage of an aircraft, IMHO.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 8):
I have fond memories of numerous flights taken when TW had a mini-hub at ATL.

I lived in ATL during this time, and my buddy at PDX worked for TWA, needless to say he saw a lot of STL, and we always went to any number of Florida cities for a night or two, each time he was in town. My last 72S aircraft were TW ATL-FLL r/t

Quoting thegoldenargosy (Reply 16):
Portland (OR)
Anchorage, St. Louis, Seattle/Tacoma

And my last TW flights were PDX-ANC-PDX. I was a travel agent and these agent fares were hard to come by, $100 r/t positive space, I one for me and my TW buddy, he hooks us up with upgrades both ways, the flight was very fantastic with our crew in F making it the best 4 hour flight on an M80.

I was told TW had just a handful of specially equipped M80s that did the STL-PDX-ANC run. I guess over water equipped, TW did not have to hug the coastline and could take a more direct route, as they also carried the US mail for this leg. Does someone out here, have the ability to fill in any details on these few planes?

Oddly enough my first TW flight was PDX-SEA-PDX for $33.00 r/t paid full fare, during the half price airline ticket war.
This was also my first L10 flight. I really liked TWA.

Also took them to Hawaii from LAX on an L10, my least favorite TW experience, but still not bad, just full, and mediocre service, plus late timing out of LAX, and a red-eye return.
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:53 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 3):

Just checked out many of these route maps. Apparently someone at TWA (or contractor) struggled with geography. STL is frequently in the wrong place, and Moline, IL had apparently moved to Kansas, among several other issues.
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Flyingsottsman
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:12 pm

I have fond memorys of TWA, seeing one of their L-1011s at Honoulu getting preped for a flight back to the main land while waiting for my flight back home, and also seeing one of their 742's at London Heathrow. Did TW ever consider replacing their 741's and 742's with the 743's ?
 
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:01 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 18):
Wow, I would love to have seen the M11 in TWs last livery.
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1400mph
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:19 pm

There is an unquantifiable and mysterious magic about TWA and indeed Pan Am for me even to this day.

I know some American friends will laugh at that and say ''oh they were awful at the end'' but it wasn't always like that was it.

The T.V commercials, the 747's etc.......it's where it all started.
 
trnswrld
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:38 pm

I had pleasant experiences and enjoyed flying TWA right up until the end.
 
flyboy80
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:40 pm

Thanks everyone for all the posts!

Anyone able to recall what the cabins and service was like?

I recall PDX-STL on the MD-83 in 2000, as well as MCO from STL on the 757.

I remember being very fond of a Dark Red/ Maroon colored uniform sweater, I believe it was worn by the Airport Agents, and maybe the FAs.

I do remember seeing the 757, and maybe even the MD-83 parked at the gates in PDX with "Anchorage" on the board. Curious how long that route was in place, and how it did?

Does anyone know how many Flight Attendants TWA had in the mid to late 90s?

Thanks!
 
Klima
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:51 pm

When did JFK become unprofitable for TWA?
 
MSYtristar
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:53 pm

I only had the opportunity to step foot on two TW aircraft...September, 2000 from MSY to BOS via STL. Both flights were on MD-83's. I liked how they had a route map attached to the bulkhead wall as you entered the aircraft that had the flight plan drawn out along with some info on the flight and aircraft. I recall on MSY-STL it was just a beverage service, and on STL-BOS, they handed out snack bags with the TWA logo on them. Both flights weren't overly memorable back then, but of course, today, I'm glad I took them. Incidentally, my aunt flew TW MSY-JFK-FCO and back in 1992...I remember I was really jealous because she got on a couple of 747's, but apparently she wasn't impressed. A postcard I got in the mail while she was over there said this...and I doubt I'll ever forget it: "TWA was a garbage can. It was the worst." I didn't believe her and of course, I still wish I had the chance to fly on that 747.
 
CIDFlyer
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:00 pm

Quoting American 767 (Reply 14):
Ben Soriano

That's pretty much a good account as to the timeline of TWA.

I can remember back in 2000 TWA was touting 8 daily mainline flights to TWA...all were M80/717. Thats just unheard of nowadays for a small to mid sized market like CID to receive that much capacity to a hub. Oh those were the days..miss them!

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 17):
Also, an alliance was announced with America West which was never implemented. That certainly would have boosted TWA's domestic reach, with LAS/PHX complementing STL.

I still always wonder what it would have been like had TWA/America West merged or TWA/US merged. A 3 way combo would have been nice and provided excellent coverage along the east coast, midwest and west.
 
doug_or
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:01 pm

I remember looking at the route map in the inflight magazine when I flew TWA in early 2000 and it showed a rather extensive Caribbean network... was this codeshares with AE out of SJU?
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chepos
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:02 pm

Flew them on the MD-80 during the SJU focus city days, SJU-MCO-SJU. Typical service for a US carrier, nothing all that special towards the end. They did hand out little TWA brnaded bags with a sandwich and chips, wings were handed out to kids when the cabin was being prepared fr arroval.

[Edited 2014-01-19 07:30:53]
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Ryanair01
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:17 pm

I'd thoroughly recommend reading the following piece, which is the best summery of what happened to TWA that I know of.

http://www.stlmag.com/St-Louis-Magaz...ctober-2005/TWA-Death-Of-A-Legend/

In terms of JFK, it was largely designed to be an international gateway hub. As described in the piece linked above, TWA's European operations became uneconomic on the back of heavy staff costs which they couldn't get out of due to local law. That meant the only option was closure for many of the European routes, which left JFK a gateway with no feed. They tried to adjust the operation to better serve New York as a market, rather than simply use JFK as a transfer hub, which is why they developed up the Caribbean network.
 
Skyguy
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:34 pm

Not too long after TWA sold their LHR routes to AA in 1991(?), TW attempted to try and have a presence in London again and flew a flight from BWI to LGW using a 767. I think it was the only flight they had in to London from anywhere in the US, I'm not sure how long this lasted but I think by 1997 or so it was discontinued. They had a large city office in central London in Piccadilly, in it's heyday in the 1980's it would be absolutely packed, taking an hour or more maybe for your turn at one of the agents desks. In the mid-90's it was like a ghost town. I went there once in 1995 and it was empty, all the agents desks were there but closed and there was just one agent at her desk, and she was reading a book saying that I was the only person that day who had come in. It was such a contrast from what I had once seen it. Anyway, I digress.

Are any of TW's 767's still flying with AA?

[Edited 2014-01-19 07:37:10]
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Ryanair01
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:57 pm

Quoting skyguy (Reply 31):
Not too long after TWA sold their LHR routes to AA in 1991(?), TW attempted to try and have a presence in London again and flew a flight from BWI to LGW using a 767. I think it was the only flight they had in to London from anywhere in the US, I'm not sure how long this lasted but I think by 1997 or so it was discontinued.

They served STL-LGW right up until their last day, but BWI was long gone by then.

Quoting skyguy (Reply 31):
They had a large city office in central London in Piccadilly, in it's heyday in the 1980's it would be absolutely packed, taking an hour or more maybe for your turn at one of the agents desks. In the mid-90's it was like a ghost town

Gosh I'd forgotten that, there was a foyer at street level and then you went upstairs via ancient escalators (which by the mid 1990's would often be turned off) into a huge old piece of prime real estate. It became very tired and run down but lasted right up until the end of the 1990's. TWA then relocated to a much smaller office around the corner in Lower Regent St until the end, which I think is a Flight Centre today. The old office is in the following Youtube video at about 2:28
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CT-cSpTjBU
 
dc10co
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:41 am

RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:29 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 18):
I was told TW had just a handful of specially equipped M80s that did the STL-PDX-ANC run. I guess over water equipped, TW did not have to hug the coastline and could take a more direct route, as they also carried the US mail for this leg. Does someone out here, have the ability to fill in any details on these few planes?

IIRC these birds were an ER variant that had an extra fuel tank in place of one of the rear cargo bins.
Listen Betty, don't start up with your white zone shit again.
 
trnswrld
Posts: 1369
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:54 pm

Quoting skyguy (Reply 31):
Are any of TW's 767's still flying with AA?

No, and I dont even think any ex-TWA 767s ever flew in AA colors. I believe the 763s were all in TWA colors right up until they left the fleet for good. They are all now flying with all sorts of other carriers. As far as the 762s, those have either been retired and broken up or I believe some are still flying around with cargo operators.

Quoting DC10CO (Reply 33):
IIRC these birds were an ER variant that had an extra fuel tank in place of one of the rear cargo bins.

Very interesting I have not heard this before. By chance does anyone know if these MD80s are still with AA? and have these tanks been removed or are they still technically an "ER" MD80 flying around?
 
zrs70
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:31 pm

In 1995 or so, right when TWA phased out international first class in favor of "Trans World First," I had the opportunity to try them on the JFK-SFO route on a 747.

They tried, they really tried. The FAs were fine. The seat was a little ahead of its time. But the food and presentation was sub-par.

I remember for the pre-meal drink service, we were given goldfish crackers (or something similar) in a plastic drinking cup.
20 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2020
 
doulasc
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:31 pm

TWA was talking about getting the Airbus A 330 but where would they fly them
 
WesternA318
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:40 pm

STL was the hub, LAX, SJU, and DCA were the first 3 Focus Cities (3 more were in the works (CUN, SFO, MIA/FLL), but they never materialized), JFK was drawn down as a hub and reduced to a spoke with token European service in the late 90's up to about 1999 or so when all that was left was LGW and CDG from STL, and Cairo, Tel Aviv and Riyadh from JFK. The JFK hub was drawn down mainly because of stipulation with the now infamous Karabu agreement between TWA and former owner Carl Icahn. Icahn's cheaptickets.com (or whatever the site was) could buy TWA tickets originating, ending or connecting through JFK for pennies on the dollar, destroying our ability to control our own yields (even on tickets not touching JFK in any way were hampered). This agreement came as a result of TWA management and creditors desperate to get rid of Icahn, kinda like cutting off your nose to spite your face. The sale of TWA's rights to LHR in 1990 further eroded our ability to have a viable Trans-Atlantic network, so JFK as a hub was no longer feasible and terminal refurbishments were deemed too costly as well.

Our fleet was the Douglas DC-9-30/40/50, the Boeing 717's inteded to replace the '9's, MD-82's and MD-83's, Boeing 757-200's and Boeing 767-200's/-300's (the -200's left just before the merger as the widebody fleet was centralized around the -300). By the end, the 727's, 747's, L-1011's and 767-200's were all gone. The Airbus A318 and further A320 family order was originally an order for 10 A330-300's. Also, we were looking at MD-90's, MD-11's, 777's and the A330/A340 family as well, but after TW800, the widebody era kinda just withered and died after Jeffrey Erickson (late of Reno Air) switched our focus from a network airline to a mainly domestic carrier.

As far as Houston service goes, TWA served IAH in the 80's and was switched to HOU when Erickson took over in 1995 or so, then switched back to IAH in 1997 after he left. He tried his damndest to make us a low-cost high-service carrier (much like America West at the time), but the BOD balked at a lot of what he tried to do and he was replaced by Gerry Gitner (I think from PeoplExpress and Texas Intl before). Gitner in turn, was replaced by Bill Compton.

For 1998 and 1999, TWA had 357 daily flights out of STL, and 40 daily out of JFK. Heavy emphasis was focused on forming code-shares with as many carriers as possible, but the only ones we could get with any meaning were America West, Royal Jordanian, Air Ukraine and Kuwait Airways.

The Ambassador Clubs were also going into major overhauls around this period as well. In 1997, the Ambassadors Club opened in STL in between Concourse C and D (just past security), and the LaGuardia and JFK Clubs were refurbished an overhauled with new offerings and services provided to members.

The TWA FFB program was overhauled and re-marketed as the "Aviators" program and a Platinum level was added for the hiest level of Frequent Flyers. Along with the rebranding, TWQ service was initiated on corporate-heavy flights out of STL, LGA, JFK, DFW, MSP, and LAX. First Class was also offered on ALL mainline flights and the Cabin was increased with more seating.

As for the employees, TWA implemented Flight Plan 97 (a carbon copy of Continental's Top-3 on-time bonus system), which paid eligible employees a $65 bonus for each month that TWA finished in the top five in all three performance categories tracked by the Department of Transportation (the "DOT") (on-time performance, customer complaints and baggage handling) and a total of $100 if TWA also ranked first in at least one of these categories.

Also, during these times, the pilots had a contract come up for renewal and management got them to a smaller package worth a lot of cost savings to the airline. The mechnics, on the other hand, had such an increase in their contract that pretty much nixed out ANY hope of savings the pilots gave up, as well as a further drain on the company's resources and cash flow. The huge MX facility in Kansas City was kept open due to this agreement, where, hardly ANY maintenance was going on, except for heavy checks. STL and LAX had their smaller check facilities where the regular line maintenance and other checks could happen, but MCI was a HUGE drain on the finances of the company.

STL was a problem as well. The hub was never viable as a major gateway the way TWA had it set up. American did the right thing by first trimming it down to a reliever hub, then finally axing the hub and making it a spoke in the system.

Quoting doug_Or (Reply 28):
was this codeshares with AE out of SJU?

Yes, it was, we code-shared heavily with AE out of SJU and LAX.

Quoting Klima (Reply 25):
When did JFK become unprofitable for TWA?

When the Karabu deal was struck, JFK (and to a lesser extent, LGA and EWR as well) became loss leaders for TWA. Hence why almost everything except the token TATL and TransCon/Caribbean services were moved to STL.
 
jcavinato
Posts: 392
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:58 pm

MDT (Harrisburg, PA) was one of their stations to the end. In the early 1990s I did a one day round trip to OHR (morning out and early evening back), and the outbound equipment was a 707 (or 720, perhaps). 727 on return. As I remember, the outbound was half full, and they served a hot breakfast in coach. I wondered then, "how much margin could they be making on this flight?" I loved it, though.

Another one about that time was to a meeting in STL. That flight stopped enroute at BWI. That part of the run was a real short hop for a 727. Good memory, just the same.
 
DETA737
Posts: 618
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:13 pm

The 1993 Karabu agreement allowed Carl Icahn to buy up any TWA ticket that did not originate or end in STL at 55 cents on the dollar and resell at a discount. This excluded travel agents, so it wasn't too bad at first. However, with the advent of the internet, Icahn set up lowestfare.com to sell TWA tickets at a discount. This is what made so many of the routes out of JFK unprofitable. This ticket agreement cost TWA around $100 million per year.

One of the reasons that the SJU focus city was setup, and TWA was expanding in the Caribbean in its final years was to try to sell package tours to groups that would use travel agents rather than lowestfare.com. Apparently STL operations were profitable for the airline.

The sad thing is that TWA was still the #1 US carrier to Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece, Israel, Egypt and Saudi Arabia as late as 1996. They weren't having problems filling their planes to Europe, but the fact that lowestfare.com often sold flights for as little as $250 roundtrip to JFK (during off peak winter season), meant that TWA couldn't afford to keep flying to many places. STL-FRA was to be launched in spring 2001, hoping that they could fill it with some O/D traffic from STL. The hope was the carrier could make it until 2003 and then rebuild the European routes.
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:35 pm

Why did TWA merge with AA in the first place(yes I know they were failing)? Why not with UA, CO, or NW? Was there really any way they couldn't last until 2003 when the karibu deal ended?
When wasn't America great?


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WesternA318
Posts: 4603
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:55 am

RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:47 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 40):
Why did TWA merge with AA in the first place(yes I know they were failing)? Why not with UA, CO, or NW? Was there really any way they couldn't last until 2003 when the karibu deal ended?

CO stepped in as a ringer to make sure AA took the employees. I wouldv LOVED to see TWA go to CO instead, as that's where I ended up in 2007.

Quoting DETA737 (Reply 39):
Apparently STL operations were profitable for the airline.

Operationally, yes. Financially, no. But that's where the hub was and TWA had no $$ to move elsewhere. the focus cities didnt need new equipment or planes to run, they took what was currently in store.
 
LambertMan
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Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:26 pm

RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:11 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 37):
STL was a problem as well. The hub was never viable as a major gateway the way TWA had it set up. American did the right thing by first trimming it down to a reliever hub, then finally axing the hub and making it a spoke in the system.

Speaking from first-hand knowledge, St. Louis was, indeed, a major problem for TWA at the scope the operation reached in 1999 + (there were even unannounced plans for FCO and MXP). Management even considered opening a secondary hub in Dayton, Nashville, and/or Indianapolis (no, not typos) to alleviate the independence on STL in the face of rising competition from WN. At a smaller scope (300 flights a day), STL was an asset to TWA in the late 80's/early 90's despite the chronic delays that plagued the operation in summer months.

However, you're off-base on the criticism of the post-2003 AA "hub". The station did well, even according to Arpey, for a five year stretch 04 to early 08, but with the oil peak in '08 and AA's cornerstone strategy it no longer fit into plans - especially given the reliance on 50-seat ERJ's and the ridiculous operating costs of the airport.
 
taichen
Posts: 212
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:58 pm

I've just posted some images from a TWA 1996 timetable, with some route maps and cabin layouts after reading this thread. http://airline-memorabilia.blogspot....twa-trans-world-airlines-1996.html

I remember when Pan Am and TWA were still gold legends, even if they were their golden days were already gone. Some of my relatives flew quite often with Pan Am and only occasionally with TWA, sadly I never managed to fly any of them.
 
DeltaRules
Posts: 5019
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2001 11:57 am

RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:40 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 37):
Yes, it was, we code-shared heavily with AE out of SJU and LAX.

Didn't TW work with Gulfstream out of SJU as well?
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
WesternA318
Posts: 4603
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:55 am

RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:43 pm

Quoting Lambertman (Reply 42):
However, you're off-base on the criticism of the post-2003 AA "hub". The station did well, even according to Arpey, for a five year stretch 04 to early 08, but with the oil peak in '08 and AA's cornerstone strategy it no longer fit into plans - especially given the reliance on 50-seat ERJ's and the ridiculous operating costs of the airport.

I never said it didnt do well, and there was no criticism. AA minimized the hub, then axed it.

I also remember when the debate of a second hub opened up, IND, BNA, and DAY were in it, as well as such off-the-wall places like COS (in the wake of the Western Pacific shutdown), SLC (it was breifly tossed around until someone remembered DL has a big hub there), and FLL (in conjunction with the operational SJU and proposed CUN focus city). I swear people at TWA during this debate were throwing darts at a map and saying "oh, this would be a nice 2nd hub".

In hindsight, what we shouldve done is keep the operations at STL to about 300-350 dailies and built up the focus cities (ouside of DCA) to handle more flights and more ops, until 2003, when the Karabu contract expired, and then whatever focus city ops didnt work, take them and rebuild the JFK hub and refurbish T5. Just my   
 
WesternA318
Posts: 4603
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:55 am

RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:44 pm

Quoting DeltaRules (Reply 44):
Didn't TW work with Gulfstream out of SJU as well?

Out of SJU and South Florida as well.
 
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American 767
Posts: 4488
Joined: Wed May 19, 1999 7:27 am

RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:48 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 15):
TW was a loyal Douglas client...the DC-9/MD-80 relationship did not start with Ozark.

Not quite. TWA chose the 707 over the DC-8 at the dawn of the jet age back in the late 50s. TWA never flew the DC-8 and neither did American. Delta did. TWA was pretty much loyal to Lockheed, they chose the L-1011 over the DC-10 and they flew the L-1049 Constellation for a long time. I don't think they ever flew the DC-4, DC-6 or DC-7, I know they did fly the DC-2 and DC-3.

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 34):
I believe the 763s were all in TWA colors right up until they left the fleet for good.

Right. They were never repainted in full AA livery. They didn't stay long in the fleet. It is for that reason American ordered 9 additional brand new 763ERs from Boeing back then, those were delivered with 777 style interiors. I remember back in 2003 flying on a 767 with 777 style interiors from CDG to JFK.
Ben Soriano
 
WesternA318
Posts: 4603
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:55 am

RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:51 pm

Quoting American 767 (Reply 47):
Not quite. TWA chose the 707 over the DC-8 at the dawn of the jet age back in the late 50s. TWA never flew the DC-8 and neither did American. Delta did. TWA was pretty much loyal to Lockheed, they chose the L-1011 over the DC-10 and they flew the L-1049 Constellation for a long time. I don't think they ever flew the DC-4, DC-6 or DC-7, I know they did fly the DC-2 and DC-3.

They also had the one-off DC-1, and the DC-4. And going further back, Western Air Express DID operated the Douglas M-2 and M-4.
 
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jfklganyc
Posts: 5560
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RE: TWA- The Last Ten Years

Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:52 pm

What happened at JFK was such a sad state and a mess.

It really was like watching a sick person get worse by the month.

Frankly, I was glad when it was all over.

There was no future for TWA, T5 or the JFK Hub.

Their fleet was ill equipped for long haul flying in the new new decade.

Heck, had they survived, their new domestic fleet on MD 80s would have looked very old by the mid 2000s.

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