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1400mph
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A380 For Leisure Routes?

Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:33 pm

10 years time when the 74's are all gone....

For example will we ever see the A380 on routes like LHR / LAS ? BA's jumbo is invariably full.

If I leased an A380 and flew routes like LHR/LAS or LGW/MCO could I make a profit ?

BGI is another good one.....lots of bucket and spade premium demand and endless holiday makers on more of a budget.

747's got deployed all over the place as the kudos faded why not the A380 ?
 
SCQ83
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:48 pm

Unless you are talking specifically about BA, Transaero will deploy their A380s in leisure routes (Moscow to ALC, BCN, AGP, DXB or BKK).
 
roseflyer
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:20 pm

Long haul leisure routes are often very seasonal. The A380 is an expensive airplane to operate for a highly seasonal route. In 10-15 years, I could imagine it moving to the high capacity seasonal routes for Air France. In general it will take a while for lease rates to drop enough for it to be cost effective to put it in a high density configuration suitable for leisure routes. Airplanes specifically configured for leisure routes often have lower annual utilization. The exception is someone like Transaero since people are always looking to escape Russia   .

I think we will see Virgin Atlantic one day consider it.

[Edited 2014-01-21 07:23:12]
 
migair54
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:15 pm

I'm sure we will see but the B77W can replace the B747 on many of thst routes with upmto 430seats inm2 class configuration, some airlines already operate them (AF, KLM...)

Transaero is planing A380 service and Air Austral also planing to operate in high density configuration, even EK will do.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 2):
I think we will see Virgin Atlantic one day consider it.

Let's see if they finally ever operate A380.... but I think only 2-3 routes at the most can sustain the whalejet.
 
DexSwart
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:29 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 3):
Air Austral also planing to operate in high density configuration, even EK will do.

I'm pretty sure the deal with UU fell through, though...
 
srbmod
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:07 pm

Slight problem, LAS is not fully capable of handling the A380. One gate at Terminal 3 can handle it, but just barely, nor have any runway and taxiway improvements been made to handle the A380, nor are there any plans to do so. With BA and KE both being A380 operators (and while VS has orders for them, there is a likelihood that they will cancel that order) they could at some point decide to ask LAS to make the necessary improvements.
 
jfk777
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:10 pm

Is Orlando ready for Virgin to fly an A380 from LGW and discharge 650 passengers into its FIS facilities ? It would proiably be better for Virgin to get some 777-9X planes and cancel their A380 order. IF Virgin were to fly the whale jet it should be to JFK, LAX and Hong Kong.
 
Gemuser
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:25 pm

Quoting srbmod (Reply 5):
nor have any runway and taxiway improvements been made to handle the A380,

What "runway & taxiway improvements' are necessary at LAS for the A380 to operate there?

Gemuser
 
scouseflyer
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:23 am

Quoting DexSwart (Reply 4):
I'm pretty sure the deal with UU fell through, though...

Not quite yet but their place in the firing order has been deleted and the MSN numbers are unused at the moment so it looks very dodgy. They've also failed to pay for a 777 that was eventually bought by someone else so I can't see how they're going to be able to buy a A380
 
DexSwart
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:07 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 6):
IF Virgin were to fly the whale jet it should be to JFK, LAX and Hong Kong.

They'd probably try JNB. Or start it as well...

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 8):

Interesting. I'll be sure to keep an eye out. They're an odd little airline...
 
1400mph
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:38 am

Quoting DexSwart (Reply 9):
They'd probably try JNB.

The A380 will be an interesting next chapter for the BA and VS saga.

Can either airline follow the other with the A380 on any one route ?

What routes can support competing A380 operations from airlines based at the same airport ?

**competing** = profitable sustainable ops by the way.

(with that in mind is Virgin Australia likely to order the A380 at some point ? )

[Edited 2014-01-22 00:40:29]
 
PanHAM
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:47 am

That brings instantly back the good old days when LTU and Condor flew L10 and 747 s on the DUS-PMI route and there was still room for other Operators.

LTU had up to 4 L10s per day IIRC, there was at least one in the morning and 2 in the evening at 21h30 and 21h45, both where back in time just after the curfew ended in the morning.

I think it could even work for leisure routes from slot restricted DUS today . One 380 could replace 3 738s , the catch is, These 3 738s are much more flexible and a fleet of 2 or 3 A380s is really not large enough.
 
DexSwart
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:00 am

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 10):
with that in mind is Virgin Australia likely to order the A380 at some point ?

Hopefully, they'll learn from the QF saga and avoid them. Their 77W's are still quite new. Maybe 77X instead or 787-9 and downsize.

QF hit a bit of luck partnering with EK. VA, however is trying to do the same.

But in short, no. No A380 for VA.
 
Planesmart
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:09 am

Quoting DexSwart (Reply 12):
QF hit a bit of luck partnering with EK.

EK was the white knight in 2013, but the role isn't played out yet.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:13 am

Quoting srbmod (Reply 5):

Slight problem, LAS is not fully capable of handling the A380. One gate at Terminal 3 can handle it, but just barely, nor have any runway and taxiway improvements been made to handle the A380, nor are there any plans to do so

Major expensive hardware upgrades for leisure yields...sounds like a recipe for success   
 
JRadier
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:45 am

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 2):
Airplanes specifically configured for leisure routes often have lower annual utilization.

May I ask how this works? The experience I have is oposite.
 
tortugamon
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:20 am

Quoting 1400mph (Thread starter):
10 years time when the 74's are all gone....

Is this a BA specific thread? 747s will be around a lot longer than 10 years. LH should have theirs until after 2035. If you are asking about A380s at BA, they have stated their interest in keeping the A380 fleet small (12 units?) so I don't think the best use of such a small fleet involves airports like LAS. Their A380s are not configured for leisure travelers.

tortugamon
 
TC957
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:05 pm

As has been mentioned, to succeed with leisure routes with an A380 it would need careful route planning for sure. In the case of VS, as an example, routes like LGW - MCO would work around school holiday dates, BGI over Christmas / New Year , LAS around the major conferences / events etc. Otherwise an A380 would be better deployes on the LHR routes to HKG, LAX and possibly MIA. So someone like VS would need to have considerable flexibility with A380 deployment or else forget about them in my opinion.
But the signs today at least are looking better at the prospects of VS getting their much-delayed A380 order. Economy picking up, unemployed considerably down, sterling value up.....so maybe, just maybe, VS do know what they are doing in delaying their A380 order.
 
1400mph
Topic Author
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:24 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):
Major expensive hardware upgrades for leisure yields...sounds like a recipe for success

The A380 has no future beyond fleets in the 'teens' for all airlines bar EK then ?
 
1400mph
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:31 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 16):
Is this a BA specific thread?

Sorry for delay tortugamon, no its not.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 16):
Their A380s are not configured for leisure travelers.

How versatile is the A380 ? Is it flat out a money pit without high premium configurations ?
 
DexSwart
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:06 pm

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 19):
Is it flat out a money pit without high premium configurations ?

Well, UN (Transaero) will have their A380's configured pretty much exclusively for leisure markets. They will operate trunk routes, and I'm pretty sure each route would only be seasonal.

But, yes, looking at other airline's configurations, then you might think the A380 is made for premium heavy configs.

Like EK with the whole upper deck with F and C class. Or QF with C and Y+ on the upper deck...
 
skipness1E
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:04 pm

Quoting 1400mph (Thread starter):
747's got deployed all over the place as the kudos faded why not the A380 ?

It wasn't kudos fading, they went where they could make money. The A380 is a fairly expensive piece of kit, I am not sure they will be suitable. Hardly anyone flies the B744 on leisure routes, it's too much aeroplane. A high capacity B77W is more likely, the A380 is niche, someone might but I doubt it would be common.

Quoting 1400mph (Thread starter):
BGI is another good one.....lots of bucket and spade premium demand and endless holiday makers on more of a budget.

I think you're mixing beach holidays with bucket and spade, believe me, they're NOT the same thing at all. Bucket and spade is Thomson, Thomas Cook, Jet2 and Monarch with easyJet and Ryanair eating into the market. That's not the same demographic as once a season to Barbados, which currently BA use a four class ( and three class) B777-200 on.
 
tommy1808
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:08 pm

Quoting DexSwart (Reply 12):

Hopefully, they'll learn from the QF saga and avoid them

The A380 are where QF makes their money with...
 
MaverickM11
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:28 pm

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 18):
The A380 has no future beyond fleets in the 'teens' for all airlines bar EK then ?

I really wonder if it does. Sure you can put a zillion seats in and reduce the unit costs significantly. But the challenge of filling those seats outweighs the reduction in costs.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 22):
The A380 are where QF makes their money with...

I thought they made their money domestically, or at JQ 
 
1400mph
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:24 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 21):
I think you're mixing beach holidays with bucket and spade, believe me, they're NOT the same thing at all. Bucket and spade is Thomson, Thomas Cook, Jet2 and Monarch with easyJet and Ryanair eating into the market. That's not the same demographic as once a season to Barbados, which currently BA use a four class ( and three class) B777-200 on.

Barbados is a beautiful island. That said to the tourist it's basically a beach. Because it's 4000 miles away and high end it's bucket and spade but with money. Someone spending two weeks at the Fairmont is probably not going to sit in economy for 9 hours.

You can spend the same amount of money on a holiday to another beautiful island Majorca but wealthy people don't mind sitting in economy for 2 hours. That's the difference. The airline has no leverage to charge thousands. Cue Ryanair et al.

To me it doesn't matter what it costs........ if you're getting on a plane to go lay in the sun or by a pool you're bucket and spade.

A bunch of twenty-somethings from L.A can go and stay in a suite at the Bellagio for a couple of nights to celebrate graduation. They probably arrived on Southwest.

The average European staying in a suite at the Bellagio for a couple of nights probably arrived in business class.

[Edited 2014-01-22 09:30:00]
 
skipness1E
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:22 pm

To the market, which is more central to the point than you are, Barbados is not a bucket and spade destination. Three years with the world's largest online travel firm taught me that much   If wealthy people don't spend silly money on short haul then explain the sheer amount of BA service out of LCY at silly prices to those very same places, less expensive via LGW mind.
You're misunderstanding the market segmentation, but I don't intend to labour the point beyond saying "bucket and spade" has a well understood meaning in the industry.
 
chieft
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:59 pm

It could work.
In a full Economy cabin, 850 pax on board - I think the per seat price would be pretty good.

I remember Britannia Airways, which bumped 290 pax into the B767-200s
 
UAEflyer
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Fri Jan 24, 2014 5:35 am

Back to topic

EK operate a daily A380 service to MRU , a very popular leisure route
 
tortugamon
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Fri Jan 24, 2014 5:46 am

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 19):
How versatile is the A380 ? Is it flat out a money pit without high premium configurations ?

Of course they could make it more leisure configured. BA doesn't but I had thought that was the basis for the argument (thanks for your note). A leisurely configured A380 would have a lot of seats; I don't think 750+ is unreasonable. Not sure how many routes have that many leisure travelers at one point during a day. It would have great CASM for sure if you can rally the demand. I am excited to see what UN can do with it.

tortugamon
 
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N14AZ
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:37 am

Quoting chieft (Reply 26):
It could work. In a full Economy cabin, 850 pax on board - I think the per seat price would be pretty good.

True, but what would you do with such an aircraft during off-season? One thing that comes to my mind is the fact that HV is reguarly leasing some of their 737's to Canada during the European winter but I guess something like this wouldn't work for such a large aircraft.

As already mentioned above, right now only Transaero and Corsair are in a position to deploy 744's on leisure routes. So I really don't see any other charter airline being interested in the A 380.

DF once had 742's and DC 10's but their largest plane is now the 767.

That being said, Skymark said they will use their A 380's on leisure routhes, although in similar configuration like the other A 380-operators.
 
art
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:40 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 28):
A leisurely configured A380 would have a lot of seats; I don't think 750+ is unreasonable. Not sure how many routes have that many leisure travelers at one point during a day.

I don't think that most leisure travellers need to depart/arrive at a particular point in the day. I know I don't care too much whether I arrive at my destination at 1000, 1200, 1400, 1600 or 1800.
 
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N14AZ
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Fri Jan 24, 2014 7:09 am

Quoting art (Reply 30):

I don't think that most leisure travellers need to depart/arrive at a particular point in the day. I know I don't care too much whether I arrive at my destination at 1000, 1200, 1400, 1600 or 1800.

The same here, but I know for sure that many Germans try to arrive at their destination early in the day. Not necessarily to put their towels on the armchairs at the pool (well, maybe some of them) but to maximise their holiday.
 
tortugamon
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Fri Jan 24, 2014 7:26 am

Quoting art (Reply 30):
I don't think that most leisure travellers need to depart/arrive at a particular point in the day. I know I don't care too much whether I arrive at my destination at 1000, 1200, 1400, 1600 or 1800.

But, by definition, they all have to leave at the same time because it is only one flight. Thats my point. I agree that they are less particular by the time of day but it still has to be a very popular route. Maybe its not 7 days a week but there aren't a lot of tourist routes with that kind of demand.

tortugamon
 
SASMD82
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Fri Jan 24, 2014 7:36 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 16):
LH should have theirs until after 2035.

Says who?

I am wondering in what configuration they will equip their 779X because I can imagine with a Y/Y+ of 3-4-3 they have the same seat and cargo capacity wheareas they burn much less fuel than the 748.
 
tommy1808
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:39 am

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 29):

True, but what would you do with such an aircraft during off-season?

There is not too much "off season" for a 8000nm airframe, they can always fly into the sun. The interesting question will be if the aircraft can work on the short hops that might be involved from time to time such as FRA-PMI or AYT at a reasonable cost levels compared with the swarm of 737 and A32x.

best regards
Thomas
 
tortugamon
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:24 am

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 33):
Quoting tortugamon (Reply 16):
LH should have theirs until after 2035.

Says who?

I guess Me and anyone else closely watching LH? LH tends to keep their aircraft for at least 20 years. They still have 10 747-8is on order five of which they are due to receive next year (2015). That sounds like 2035 to me unless they change the way the operate before then.

tortugamon
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:27 am

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 29):
As already mentioned above, right now only Transaero and Corsair are in a position to deploy 744's on leisure routes.

What about VS ? 744's to Florida and the Carribbean. Its noticeable however that VS operates at a lower frequency than BA on many Carribbean routes which suggests that the BA 772's are better sized for that market. Frequency on these routes can be important as higher end tourists tend to want more flexibility on flight dates.
 
Carpethead
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:42 pm

I might have picked JAL to place an A380 on a route like NRT-HNL, but forget it now.

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 29):
Skymark said they will use their A 380's on leisure routhes, although in similar configuration like the other A 380-operators.

That would make not sense. If anything, they would be configured in a high-density seating with minimal premium seating. That is going against anything the current A380 operators are doing. That being said, Skymark has alway hinted the A380 will be a premium plane plunging into the competitive routes such as NRT-JFK/LAX.
 
chieft
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:46 pm

Quoting UAEflyer (Reply 27):
Back to topic

Well, the topic is: "A380 For Leisure Routes?"

Quoting chieft (Reply 26):

It could work.
In a full Economy cabin, 850 pax on board - I think the per seat price would be pretty good.

I remember Britannia Airways, which bumped 290 pax into the B767-200s

This is not off topic...  
 
chieft
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:52 pm

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 29):
True, but what would you do with such an aircraft during off-season?

I could imagine, that there is an inteest from Hajj & Umrah tour operators. And:

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 34):
There is not too much "off season" for a 8000nm airframe, they can always fly into the sun.
Quoting tortugamon (Reply 28):
A leisurely configured A380 would have a lot of seats; I don't think 750+ is unreasonable. Not sure how many routes have that many leisure travelers at one point during a day.

Well, indeed the amount of flights could be reduced. I am pretty sure that passengers would choose that if the price is right. And the CASM of an 850 Pax A380 could deliver that. It also would give the opportunity for new markets.
 
JRadier
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:09 pm

Quoting chieft (Reply 39):
It also would give the opportunity for new markets.

New markets with an 850 seat A380?
 
awthompson
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RE: A380 For Leisure Routes?

Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:16 pm

If you want to see A380 on beach holiday flights, Transaero is without doubt your highest possibility.

I haven't considered airport readiness, but Transaero have used 747s on each of the following so why not A380 at least on occasions to some of these:

Tenerife Sur, Las Palmas de Gran Canaria, Palma de Majorca, Rhodes, Antalya, Larnaca, Burgas, Sharm el Sheik, Hurghada, Punta Cana, Varadero, Cancun, even Monastir and Rimini and others. Also tourist destinations such as Barcelona and Phuket.

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