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bnatraveler
Topic Author
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DL Having Teething Issues With B712s?

Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:38 pm

I flew my first DL B712 this morning from ATL-LIT (N929AT) and we had a maintenance delay in our departure due to a 'minor maintenance delay.' Since this was only the 5th revenue flight of this plane in DL colors, I didn't think much of it.... however, that same ship is coming back to LIT and flying me LIT-ATL later today and it has now had another maintenance delay in Atlanta.

I spoke to the red-coat here in LIT and she said that their LIT-ATL flights are now almost all B712 and they've been having lots of maintenance issues with the plane, requiring B752s and A320s to come in make up the slack.

Since all of the planes flew for a long time in FL colors, it does seem odd that DL may be having these issues. Does anyone have insight to the troubles and their ultimate resolution?
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: DL Having Teething Issues With B712s?

Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:29 pm

A sample size this small means nothing. Not trying to sound mean but that's how any analyst will look at it. Further, do we know the attributes from when they were with FL?
What gets measured gets done.
 
brilondon
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RE: DL Having Teething Issues With B712s?

Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:28 pm

Didn't they just start using them? I would give it a year and see where the issues lie.
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
MD88Captain
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RE: DL Having Teething Issues With B712s?

Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:32 am

Red Coats speak with authority and really have no clue. Aircraft substitutions are happening because there was a delay getting the aircraft from the contractors responsible for refitting the aircraft into DAL livery and interiors. The schedules got written months before based on anticipated 717 deliveries. Once those deliveries started to slip there were too many scheduled 717 flights and not enough 717s. So... DC9s, 319's, et al get substituted. It is not because of terrible maintenance delays. (BTW, I believe the planes are mostly coming on schedule now.)

That said, DAL mechanics (like every airline) have to learn any new aircraft. They are unfamiliar with the 717 (it is not just a DC9 or just like a MD88). Learning takes time. So a write up or malfunction that takes 45 minutes today will take 10 minutes a year from now.
 
PGNCS
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RE: DL Having Teething Issues With B712s?

Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:25 am

Quoting bnatraveler (Thread starter):
I didn't think much of it.

Which was an appropriate reaction, because...

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 1):
A sample size this small means nothing.

New fleets are generally less reliable than long established fleets as everyone is getting used to the nuances of the aircraft. Whether there is any statistical significance after a year or two is more telling. Certainly the sample size you discuss has no significance.
 
strfyr51
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RE: DL Having Teething Issues With B712s?

Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:41 am

I would guess that It's the unfamiliarity with the particular model that's causing problems. It might be Indication differences from the MD-88's the pilots were used to flying. Because FL knew the airplane dies Not mean that DL knows the airplane or any of it's nuances. Both DAL and UAL fly airbusses and I'll bet they might have a minute or two pause were we to switch airplanes due to Software, Upgrades and Differences. Even our Wheels might be a different size or type. I don't think the problem will persist long unless it'sa problem with THAT particular airplane.
 
flyingdoc
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RE: DL Having Teething Issues With B712s?

Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:55 am

I, too, have had ATL-LIT delays due to maintenance on the 717s. Once, the plane was delayed, but fixed. On the most recent occasion, last week, the mechanics came on the plane and stayed. The Captain said that there was a themocouple that wasn't working and they didn't have a replacement part available to fix it, so we all got off the plane and had to change from the ATL C concourse to the ATL B concourse for the flight, on a different 717.
 
UK_Dispatcher
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RE: DL Having Teething Issues With B712s?

Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:15 am

Can I be the first to say bring back the DC-9s ?!  Wink

[Edited 2014-01-24 22:15:29]
 
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mayor
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RE: DL Having Teething Issues With B712s?

Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:16 am

It could be that in any one day, there are only 4 or 5 a/c running the ATL-LIT-ATL routes, so any delays ARE going to stand out because it's the same a/c over and over again until a different rotation comes along.



According to Delta.com, at least two of the three daily flights are what we used to call "round robins"........a flight that goes ATL-LIT-ATL, same equipment, same flight number.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: DL Having Teething Issues With B712s?

Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:58 pm

When we first put the A320 into service back in 1989 there were numerous electronic glitches--error flags on the FMC that the pilots couldnot figure out how to resolve. So we had a lot of gate returns to get maintenance to help resolve the issue. IIRC the learning curve for everyone was about 6 months, not a terrible amount of time. And the problems were not serious--just getting familiar with new equipment. The B717 is a tough airplane with an historic heritage and will perform very well. And as far as bringing back the DC-9--ain't gonna happen although I do understand a couple have been kept on standby for now as last minute equipment substitutions.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: DL Having Teething Issues With B712s?

Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:31 pm

You could call it teething issues with the 717s... there are pretty routine mx issues at this point with the plane as there is a learning curve with any new fleet. So, yes... mx delays are more common than on other fleets at this point. That will resolve as they catch up to the curve.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
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zippyjet
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RE: DL Having Teething Issues With B712s?

Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:23 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 1):

Since I started with FL we've flown the 717's. BTW, though some feel the seats are skimpy I enjoyed flying on them. These birds had the optional more powerful cabin air system so more fresh cabin air. A smooth and quiet ride. They did sporadically have maintenance issues like almost any other airliner. And with the lousy extreme weather maintenance incidents across the board are going to go up.
I'm Zippyjet & I approve this message!
 
captainstefan
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RE: DL Having Teething Issues With B712s?

Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:21 am

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 9):
I do understand a couple have been kept on standby for now as last minute equipment substitutions.

Sadly, as of this past Thursday 23 January, all DC-9s are off DL property except ship 9880 / N675MC, which sits at the Atlanta TOC with no engines waiting to be towed across the street to the new museum. However, two aircraft (9870/N779NC and 9873/N782NC) were kept after the official retirement on 6 January and operated as ad hoc substitutions until Wednesday.
Long Live the Tulip!
 
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airportugal310
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RE: DL Having Teething Issues With B712s?

Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:35 am

Call us up...we'll help ya out  Wink

Signed,
HA

[Edited 2014-01-25 19:35:50]
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: DL Having Teething Issues With B712s?

Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:24 am

Quoting bnatraveler (Thread starter):
I spoke to the red-coat here in LIT and she said that their LIT-ATL flights are now almost all B712 and they've been having lots of maintenance issues with the plane, requiring B752s and A320s to come in make up the slack.

Some of these have been due to weather delays/cancelations, not all due to 717 issues, or delayed deliveries.
They needed the 757s to move out passengers when ATL was heavily delayed due to cold/de-icing delays 2 weeks ago and operating a significantly reduced number of departures.
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: DL Having Teething Issues With B712s?

Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:57 pm

Quoting captainstefan (Reply 12):
Sadly, as of this past Thursday 23 January, all DC-9s are off DL property except ship 9880 / N675MC, which sits at the Atlanta TOC with no engines waiting to be towed across the street to the new museum. However, two aircraft (9870/N779NC and 9873/N782NC) were kept after the official retirement on 6 January and operated as ad hoc substitutions until Wednesday.

Glad to see that DL felt it appropriate to keep one for the museum. Great news for airplane buffs like us.

I took my nieces to the Smithsonian where the original front section of NW's first 747-100 is on display and I have to admit it looked really primitive. They were astounded when I showed them my old log books that showed how many times I actually worked on that airplane.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
ScottB
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RE: DL Having Teething Issues With B712s?

Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:59 pm

Quoting captainstefan (Reply 12):
Sadly, as of this past Thursday 23 January, all DC-9s are off DL property except ship 9880 / N675MC, which sits at the Atlanta TOC with no engines waiting to be towed across the street to the new museum.

You'd think they would have kept one of the North Central aircraft rather than one from Austrian (and later Muse, the reason for the MC in the registration).
 
PanAm747LHR
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RE: DL Having Teething Issues With B712s?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:24 pm

In addition to the MX delays, the reception the 717 has received from the flight attendants has been pretty chilly. Yes, the galleys have been redesigned, but not for the better. The carts are all half carts, which are prone to tip over and harder to control in the aisle, in addition to having fewer supplies on them. And with the entire galley in the forward cabin, you constantly are tripping over each other trying to get the service ready. Yes, it makes room for more seats, but it makes it much harder to get the job done. So far, it seems that most of the FAs are less than impressed...
 
MD88Captain
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RE: DL Having Teething Issues With B712s?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:09 pm

True that. The FA's look at it like an M88 and just cuss. But... many of the legs are so short that they don't/can't bring the carts out anyway.
 
Prost
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RE: DL Having Teething Issues With B712s?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:07 pm

Well, one thing to keep in mind, those are mainline flight attendant positions replacing Delta Connection positions. The complainsts should probably be fairly muted.
 
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b727fa
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RE: DL Having Teething Issues With B712s?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:56 pm

The biggest issue I have with the 717 galley is the fact that though it's the identical galley to the 88/90 they did a completely DIFFERENT pack out. It really makes no sense to the FA's. At last we finally learned how to "work" the new set up (and it's really not that bad) and then we get a completely different animal in the same exact cage. LOL. It'd be like have the identical flight deck but "re-wiring" all the switches to do something different.
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
TR1
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RE: DL Having Teething Issues With B712s?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:42 pm

Quoting B727FA (Reply 20):
The biggest issue I have with the 717 galley is the fact that though it's the identical galley to the 88/90 they did a completely DIFFERENT pack out. It really makes no sense to the FA's. At last we finally learned how to "work" the new set up (and it's really not that bad) and then we get a completely different animal in the same exact cage. LOL. It'd be like have the identical flight deck but "re-wiring" all the switches to do something different.

After working my first 717 trip a month ago I also was wondering the same thing. My first impression was that the cabin of this aircraft feels more cramped than the MD-88 or even the DC-9.
 
CF-CPI
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RE: DL Having Teething Issues With B712s?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:07 pm

Quoting PanAm747LHR (Reply 17):
And with the entire galley in the forward cabin, you constantly are tripping over each other trying to get the service ready.

I heard the same thing about the MD90 a couple of years ago. In fact, the service to the F cabin cannot really commence until the economy BOB cart has been prepared and dispatched to that (endless) economy cabin. In the meantime, it's a real zoo near the forward doors, left and right.

Is the situation more painful on the 717? I suppose the shorter stage lengths mean that there is more of a rush to get the service started (and completed) prior to final approach.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: DL Having Teething Issues With B712s?

Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:15 am

The DC-9 had a very generously sized forward galley, in comparison to the MD88/MD90/717.

But consider, due to stage lengths, none of the 717 flights have F meal service, and in fact some of the flights do not even have drink service in Y.
 
TW870
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RE: DL Having Teething Issues With B712s?

Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:18 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 23):
none of the 717 flights have F meal service

I believe several of the ATL-EWR trips have a hot meal in first. Only the few trips during non-meal times don't - as far as I can tell from the website. Those have got to be a bit of the high wire act for the person working up front. I love McDonnell Douglas airplanes (and their offspring), but I was always glad as a United flight attendant that I didn't have to do a hot dinner up front on MD-80/90s etc...
 
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b727fa
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RE: DL Having Teething Issues With B712s?

Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:50 am

Quoting TR1 (Reply 21):
My first impression was that the cabin of this aircraft feels more cramped than the MD-88 or even the DC-9.

I *know* it's the same cross-section as all the other MD's...but child, I swear I become a "B-C Girl" on that plane: my hips hit "B" they hit "C" they hit "B" they hit "C"
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
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mayor
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RE: DL Having Teething Issues With B712s?

Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:45 am

Quoting B727FA (Reply 25):
I *know* it's the same cross-section as all the other MD's...but child, I swear I become a "B-C Girl" on that plane: my hips hit "B" they hit "C" they hit "B" they hit "C"

Time to hit the gym?  
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: DL Having Teething Issues With B712s?

Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:00 am

Quoting B727FA (Reply 25):
I *know* it's the same cross-section as all the other MD's...but child, I swear I become a "B-C Girl" on that plane: my hips hit "B" they hit "C" they hit "B" they hit "C"

The airline does that intentionally so they have to spend less money cleaning the sides of the seats.  
Chicks dig winglets.
 
OOer
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RE: DL Having Teething Issues With B712s?

Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:34 am

They'll work out the kinks in the 717 within a couple of months.

It also looks like the LGA-BOS shuttle will be going back to mainline and operated by the 717. This will happen later on in the year. I wonder if LGA-DCA will be next...
 
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b727fa
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RE: DL Having Teething Issues With B712s?

Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:13 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 26):
Time to hit the gym?  

Don't remind me! LOL

Quoting mayor (Reply 26):
The airline does that intentionally so they have to spend less money cleaning the sides of the seats.  

Brilliant! They think of everything. Now if only beehive hair styles came back we could clean the ceilings, too!
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.

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