burchfiel
Topic Author
Posts: 479
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:34 am

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:41 am

ORD was the busiest airport in the world for some time, and since then it has still been the 2nd busiest in the US (behind world leader ATL). Yet LAX appears set to overtake ORD in passenger numbers. I believe LAX was actually busier than ORD for the January to September 2013 period, but with the new October numbers in, ORD has retaken the world's #5 spot over LAX. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%27s_busiest_airports_by_passenger_traffic) Chicago was long America's 'Second City' after NY, but now the Los Angeles area has more residents; it looks like the same shift will happen with the cities' major airports.

For the year, LAX has had a 4.6% increase in passenger traffic relative to Jan-Oct 2012, whereas ORD has had a 0.8% decrease in traffic. Only 2 other airports in the top 15 experienced declines in traffic: ATL and DEN.

For me, LAX's rise is quite impressive in that no carrier has a dominant hub there (whereas at ORD, UA and AA both have impressive hubs). It looks like Los Angeles is experiencing healthy passenger demand and airlines are sure to take note. Meanwhile, as a Chicago resident, I hope that ORD will break out of its slump soon.

[Edited 2014-01-26 20:45:04]
 
AADC10
Posts: 1511
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:40 am

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:16 am

I doubt LAX could overtake ORD in passenger traffic or movements. While LAX still has some runway capacity due to its fair weather and dual Cat III approaches, it does not have enough gates. There is a consent decree that limits the number of passengers and if the number is exceeded, the total number of gates would be reduced. I think that the USA airport most capable of passing ORD is DFW, particularly if AA chooses to concentrate its flights there while taking some away from ORD. I do not think that is too likely however. DEN is physically capable of greater capacity than ORD but the demand is not there and UA has spread out to other hubs.
 
burchfiel
Topic Author
Posts: 479
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:34 am

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:33 am

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 1):
There is a consent decree that limits the number of passengers and if the number is exceeded, the total number of gates would be reduced.

This is very interesting to hear. Could you provide more information? Talk about an airport being a 'victim of its own success'!

I'm not familiar with the details, but for what it's worth, didn't the government intervene to reduce the number of passengers at ORD? That may have been in part what caused ATL to overtake ORD sometime before 2000.

Again, FWIW, I think LAX was ahead of ORD in the passenger traffic rankings from January to September of 2013. We'll have to wait and see what the final 2013 totals are like.
 
dbo861
Posts: 1022
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 2:20 am

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:52 am

Quoting Burchfiel (Reply 2):

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 1):
There is a consent decree that limits the number of passengers and if the number is exceeded, the total number of gates would be reduced.

This is very interesting to hear. Could you provide more information? Talk about an airport being a 'victim of its own success'!

I'm not familiar with the details, but for what it's worth, didn't the government intervene to reduce the number of passengers at ORD?

Why would the government want to limit the number of passengers at an airport?
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 23971
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:12 am

LAX already posted its 2013 totals last week.

66,667,619 passengers up 4.7%

Regarding the the court agreement, total number of gates are indeed capped at 153 and if annual passenger count exceeds 75mil, then up to 10-gates would be withdrawn from use.

You can read a few details here
http://www.ourlax.org/LAXMPSettlement.aspx

While current agreement runs through 2020, airport has said it fully expects it to be extended and plans its modernization projects around such agreement.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
burchfiel
Topic Author
Posts: 479
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:34 am

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:13 pm

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 3):
Why would the government want to limit the number of passengers at an airport?

Probably in order to reduce delays and congestion at the airport. But it does seem like a strange concept.
 
G500
Posts: 1269
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:45 pm

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:45 pm

If we talk O&D numbers alone, ORD and ATL don't even come close to LAX... not even close
 
Beardown91737
Posts: 892
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:56 pm

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:29 pm

The limit on passengers was a settlement with neighbors of LAX regarding the usual airport neighbor complaints. Yes, we all know the Airport Was There First. However, LAWA agreed to the settlement. They actually have had an easy time complying due to the industry downturn.

The agreement expires at the end of 2015 except the gate provisions remain in effect through 2020.

http://www.ourlax.org/LAXMPSettlement.aspx
135 hrs PIC (mostly PA-28) - not current. Landings at MDW, PIA, JAN.
 
AADC10
Posts: 1511
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:40 am

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:35 pm

Quoting Burchfiel (Reply 5):
Quoting dbo861 (Reply 3):
Why would the government want to limit the number of passengers at an airport?

Probably in order to reduce delays and congestion at the airport. But it does seem like a strange concept.

Actually it is pure NIMBYism. The residents near LAX despise the noise and traffic so they want passengers to be spread out to other regional airports, such as SNA, BUR, LGB, PMD and ONT. All are capacity restricted in various ways except PMD and ONT so it is unclear how the "regional" approach is supposed to work, since PMD and ONT are more than 50 miles from LAX. NIMBYs also blocked road and rail improvements into LAX, although it looks like some sort of people mover will eventually be built and LAWA was able to get the new taxiways and the updated TBIT open.

If anything, I would expect LAX to slide down the lists of busiest airports as hub service will have to move to airports with available capacity, leaving LAX to move even further toward O&D.
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 5523
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:38 pm

Chicago was and is second city in nick name only.

Los Angeles is a heck of a lot bigger and that hasnt been close in any recent memory.

The NYC borough of Brooklyn is bigger than Chicago for instance.

While LAX and JFK/EWR/LGA benefit from huge O and D numbers and ideal international gateways, Chicago always benefited from its central location to be a hub for railroad and later airline passengers.

As the US population has shifted south and west to Atlanta has taken over as the largest hub in the US

That, coupled with Chinese growth means ORDs days as the #1 airport are over for now
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 2124
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:55 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 9):
The NYC borough of Brooklyn is bigger than Chicago for instance.

Source?

According to Wikipedia that is not accurate (as of 2012).
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:13 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 9):

The NYC borough of Brooklyn is bigger than Chicago for instance.

This paired with this:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 9):
As the US population has shifted south and west to Atlanta has taken over as the largest hub in the US

makes no sense.
Step into my office, baby
 
User avatar
United787
Posts: 2883
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 12:20 pm

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:43 pm

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 1):
While LAX still has some runway capacity due to its fair weather and dual Cat III approaches, it does not have enough gates.

Now that ORD has completed it's 4th parallel runway, delay problems have shifted to a lack of gates. Most of my wife's recent flights have landed early only to be delayed waiting for a gate to open up. This problem is going to get worse for ORD since there are no immediate plans to add gates and we have a 5th parallel runway under construction.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 9):
Chicago was and is second city in nick name only.

Los Angeles is a heck of a lot bigger and that hasnt been close in any recent memory.

Yet LA and Chicago are tied as Alpha cities even though the LA metro area is twice the size of the Chicago metro area.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 9):
That, coupled with Chinese growth means ORDs days as the #1 airport are over for now

Chicago has benefited from Chinese growth and serves as a major gateway to China for the Eastern half of the US.
 
Timaay419
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2004 1:04 pm

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:35 pm

Quoting United787 (Reply 12):
Yet LA and Chicago are tied as Alpha cities even though the LA metro area is twice the size of the Chicago metro area.

Tied as Alpha cities? You must be kidding.
 
jayunited
Posts: 2340
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:50 am

Quoting United787 (Reply 12):
Yet LA and Chicago are tied as Alpha cities even though the LA metro area is twice the size of the Chicago metro area.

LOL!!! What the hell is a Alpha city? Chicago has been called many things I've never heard this city referred to as an Alpha city until now?

Quoting Burchfiel (Thread starter):
Chicago was long America's 'Second City' after NY, but now the Los Angeles area has more residents; it looks like the same shift will happen with the cities' major airports.

Chicago is still the Second City but that title has nothing to do with the population size at least not now. Los Angeles surpassed Chicago in term's of population size way back in the 1950's when many residents in Chicago started moving out to Chicago's suburbs. The 1950's and 60's is really when the suburban population in the Chicagoland area took off. But even though Los Angeles had surpassed Chicago in terms of population the nickname Second City was still used.

Now ORD's importance as a hub has been reduced and there is no question about it more and more people want to fly nonstop instead of connecting at ORD. And another reason ORD's number have been reduced over the years is because both AA and UA are flying more RJ's into and out of Chicago than they were 3-4 years ago. If both AA and UA reverse that trend in the coming years or start flying more 70 or 76 seaters out of ORD instead of the 50 seaters then we might see ORD's numbers start to rise.
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 5523
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:03 am

My Apologies:

Chicago 2,714,856

Brooklyn 2,565,635
 
Yflyer
Posts: 1698
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:05 am

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:19 am

Quoting jayunited (Reply 14):
Chicago is still the Second City but that title has nothing to do with the population size at least not now. Los Angeles surpassed Chicago in term's of population size way back in the 1950's when many residents in Chicago started moving out to Chicago's suburbs.

According to my quick research, Los Angeles didn't surpass Chicago as America's second largest city until some time in the 1980s:

Population in 1980: Los Angeles=2,966,850 Chicago=3,005,072
Population in 1990: Los Angeles=3,485,398 Chicago=2,783,726

That's according to the Wikipedia pages for each city; each article has a table of historical populations in the demographics section.

Edit to add: You are correct in that the 1950s are when Chicago's population first began to decline; the 1960 census is the first one to show a drop in population, but Chicago had a large enough lead over Los Angeles at that time that it took a couple of decades for LA to surpass it.

[Edited 2014-01-27 17:32:59]
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 23971
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:27 am

Quoting jayunited (Reply 14):
What the hell is a Alpha city? Chicago has been called many things I've never heard this city referred to as an Alpha city until now?

World cities are ranked by influence into Alpha, Beta and Gamma by taking into account many factors such as economics, cultural, politics and their connectivity and global integration. Basically the higher value the node(city) is the higher its ranking.

Chicago while not as populated as other metros has maintained a relative high Alpha ranking due to its continued historic importance as a transportation hub, and also being a center of business and its continued hosting financial and commodity exchanges.

Here is a visuall map of the rankings;
http://www.lboro.ac.uk/gawc/visual/globalcities2010.pdf

Here is a list of global cities based on their populations versus GDP
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/node/373401

=
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 23971
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:36 am

Quoting Yflyer (Reply 16):
That's according to the Wikipedia pages for each city; each article has a table of historical populations in the demographics section.

Btw - forget looking at city proper populations.

City of Los Angeles for example is merely 1 of 88 cities in Los Angeles County.

Better measure of population is the Census MSA or CSA population counts.

2012 MSA
Chicago - 9,522,434
Los Angeles - 13,052,921

2012 CSA
Chicago - 10,249,902
Los Angeles - 18,438,998
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18432
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:43 am

Quoting Burchfiel (Thread starter):
Chicago was long America's 'Second City' after NY, but now the Los Angeles area has more residents; it looks like the same shift will happen with the cities' major airports.

Who still calls Chicago the USA's second city? Seriously. It has been New York than LA my entire life for population and economy.

Economically, Chicago needs to look over its shoulder at Washinton DC and Houston. Both might displace it as the #3 city economically in 10 to 20 years (not near term):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._metropolitan_areas_by_GDP

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
LAX already posted its 2013 totals last week.

66,667,619 passengers up 4.7%

Sure it wasn't 66,666,666?   

Seriously, a little growth YOY, but not much. We need more airport capacity... Sigh...

Quoting g500 (Reply 6):

If we talk O&D numbers alone, ORD and ATL don't even come close to LAX... not even close

ORD isn't that far behind... There was a thread on that:
Top US O&D Airports (by LAXintl Jun 19 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 9):
Chicago was and is second city in nick name only.

What is this nickname. Seriously, it is not something I've heard in my lifetime.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
trnswrld
Posts: 1369
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 2:19 am

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:45 am

Who cares how many people are in the planes, let's talk aircraft movements. What do those figures look like?
 
opethfan
Posts: 940
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:35 am

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:25 am

Judging a city's population by city proper is like judging how long a movie is by the size of the font on the DVD cover.
 
burchfiel
Topic Author
Posts: 479
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:34 am

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:32 am

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 20):
Who cares how many people are in the planes, let's talk aircraft movements

Plenty of folks (like myself) care, because there's a huge difference in passenger numbers from a Dash 8 to a 777-300ER, and that results in major differences in the airport rankings when you're talking about movements as opposed to passenger traffic. Here is the ranking by movements: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%2...est_airports_by_aircraft_movements
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 5523
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:01 am

Quoting Opethfan (Reply 21):
Judging a city's population by city proper is like judging how long a movie is by the size of the font on the DVD cover.

That is a ridiculous statement.

That is where a real city like NYC or London or Paris, or Tokyo shines.

That is also where a city that is hardly a city, but a collection of suburbs around a tiny downtown core gets exposed for what it is...a collection of suburbs surrounding a small downtown no one lives in.

America does the the second type of city well. Americans love to tell you a city they live in as they back out from their two car garage and get their mail from a mail box on a pedestal at the end of their lawn. (Hint...not really a city)
 
trnswrld
Posts: 1369
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 2:19 am

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:16 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 23):
America does the the second type of city well. Americans love to tell you a city they live in as they back out from their two car garage and get their mail from a mail box on a pedestal at the end of their lawn. (Hint...not really a city)

And thank god not really in the city. I grew up in the city and you couldn't pay me to live there again. I'm out in the far suburbs and wouldn't have it any other way. IMO the city is cluttered, horrendous traffic, usually a lot dirtier, more crime, taxes up the ass, everything is expensive...I can go on if I wanted. I like the suburban life myself  
 
a380787
Posts: 4573
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:38 pm

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:25 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 18):
2012 MSA
Chicago - 9,522,434
Los Angeles - 13,052,921

2012 CSA
Chicago - 10,249,902
Los Angeles - 18,438,998

LA CSA numbers can be a bit skewed cuz they usually count the entire san bernadino county which stretches to the border of nevada and arizona
 
n782nc
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:31 pm

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:31 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 23):

Except that in certain parts of the world the definition of "city" is a bit more ambiguous...

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 23):
That is also where a city that is hardly a city, but a collection of suburbs around a tiny downtown core gets exposed for what it is...a collection of suburbs surrounding a small downtown no one lives in.

Many "cities" around the world are exactly this, a collection of different cities grouped under one name and operated essentially as one.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 23):
That is where a real city like NYC or London or Paris, or Tokyo shines.

Except that London and Tokyo aren't technically "cities" in the strictest definition. There is NO city of Tokyo, but a collection of cities that make up the "metropolitan prefecture" called Tokyo. London is similar, though not exactly the same concept. Take a look at the difference between the "City of London" vs Greater London. Many other "cities" follow this same system, such as Sydney, Melbourne, Auckland, etc....

So there are many instances where Opethfan is in fact correct. The city proper is not the be all end all.
Stairway to Seven
 
luckyone
Posts: 2856
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:35 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 9):
The NYC borough of Brooklyn is bigger than Chicago for instance.

Chicago is both larger than Brooklyn in area and population.

Quoting timaay419 (Reply 13):
Tied as Alpha cities? You must be kidding.
Quoting jayunited (Reply 14):
LOL!!! What the hell is a Alpha city? Chicago has been called many things I've never heard this city referred to as an Alpha city until now?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_city

ORD will over the years see bigger fluctuations in traffic for the same reason that it will most likely always be busier than LAX. It is ideally positioned as a hub. LAX is not. While that position benefits ORD, it also means its traffic numbers are subject to the moods and models of its hub airlines.

It should also be noted that despite the Los Angeles CSA being significantly larger than Chicago (close to double), they are almost neck-in-neck in GDP-per-capita -- 57,350.71 to 56,265.2 in favor of Los Angeles.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
What is this nickname. Seriously, it is not something I've heard in my lifetime.

You must not have ever been to Chicago. If you have, were you paying attention? It's everywhere. Just as an example, The Second City improv school has been feeding SNL for thirty years: James Belushi, Tina Fey, Bonnie Hunt, Chris Farley, Dan Akroyd, Stephen Colbert are just a few names of the alumni I know off the top of my head. I played in a tennis league called "Second City Tennis." There's a marketing corp called Second City Communication.
 
Beardown91737
Posts: 892
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:56 pm

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:54 am

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 8):
Actually it is pure NIMBYism. The residents near LAX despise the noise and traffic so they want passengers to be spread out to other regional airports, such as SNA, BUR, LGB, PMD and ONT. All are capacity restricted in various ways except PMD and ONT so it is unclear how the "regional" approach is supposed to work, since PMD and ONT are more than 50 miles from LAX. NIMBYs also blocked road and rail improvements into LAX, although it looks like some sort of people mover will eventually be built and LAWA was able to get the new taxiways and the updated TBIT open.

If anything, I would expect LAX to slide down the lists of busiest airports as hub service will have to move to airports with available capacity, leaving LAX to move even further toward O&D.

Agreed it is NIMBY, but they have nothing on SNA neighbors.

Fact is, LAWA (operator of LAX and ONT) agreed to a regional approach in their 2006 settlement of the NIMBY lawsuit. They might even have had to do something if it wasn't for the recession's effect on traffic. That put LAX way short of the quota, so they charge toward the quota, hoping they don't hit it before the agreement expires. If they do, they lose gates, and they are probably thinking that would result in more widebodies and less RJs at LAX.

How does a "regional approach" work? The answer is... if you like LAX as your airport, you can keep it. If you live closer to one of the other four airports, then you have a convenient alternative to driving long distances on busy freeways. Of course, LAX will get the bulk of the area's international service, while SNA and LGB may get Cabo, and ONT gets GDL. The point being, that you don't have to live near LAX to want as few people as possible using it. LAX is southwest of Central LA, on the coast. Anyone driving to it from the areas near BUR, ONT, or PMD are just extra cars on the road, crossing quite a bit of LA (or LA County). That makes for more traffic for many miles of SoCal freeways.

That argument might seem to be based on areas far from LA, but about 300,000 LA residents live closer to LGB than to LAX, and over 1.5 million are closer to BUR than LAX. The population closer to ONT is 5 million, and SNA is 3 million. That's what makes a strong set of satellite airports seem realistic in the eyes of many. LAX is such an O & D market that a lot of the origins could be from closer to people's homes. Residents of LA, the San Fernando Valley, and the IE all become winners. Long Beach and OC residents will probably still complain about traffic and noise.


Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 9):

While LAX and JFK/EWR/LGA benefit from huge O and D numbers and ideal international gateways, Chicago always benefited from its central location to be a hub for railroad and later airline passengers.

As the US population has shifted south and west to Atlanta has taken over as the largest hub in the US

That, coupled with Chinese growth means ORDs days as the #1 airport are over for now

ATL took over many years ago, but nothing to do with China. That might change if Atlanta gets a second airport, or Delta decides to distribute traffic differently, or if some judge puts limits on MDW.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 14):
What the hell is a Alpha city?
http://www.spottedbylocals.com/blog/alpha-beta-and-gamma-cities/

Quoting jayunited (Reply 14):
Chicago is still the Second City but that title has nothing to do with the population size at least not now. Los Angeles surpassed Chicago in term's of population size way back in the 1950's when many residents in Chicago started moving out to Chicago's suburbs. The 1950's and 60's is really when the suburban population in the Chicagoland area took off. But even though Los Angeles had surpassed Chicago in terms of populationhe t nickname Second City was still used.

.

The nickname was made up by a writer for the New Yorker in the 1950s. It was a derisive article, with some element of truth, about Chicago's boisterousness about everything it was #1 in, to make up for it's #2 population. I lived in Chicago itself through 7th grade, and we were indoctrinated with the population stats that Chicago had a larger population than LA.

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 20):

Who cares how many people are in the planes, let's talk aircraft movements. What do those figures look like?

Well in that case, VNY was the busiest when GA was in its prime.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 25):
LA CSA numbers can be a bit skewed cuz they usually count the entire san bernadino county which stretches to the border of nevada and arizona

Yes but most people in SB and Riverside counties live within 25 miles of LA County. I live about 8 miles east of Claremont, but I can also see ONT out my window (because I am uphill from the airport).

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 23):
That is where a real city like NYC or London or Paris, or Tokyo shines.

That is also where a city that is hardly a city, but a collection of suburbs around a tiny downtown core gets exposed for what it is...a collection of suburbs surrounding a small downtown no one lives in.


LA would top the list of collection of suburbs around a tiny downtown core. However, there have been residents of downtown LA for decades, and that number increases as the area around Staples Center continues to yuppify.

What I will say is that all of Chicago uses Chicago as an address. In NYC, there are addresses like Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens, and Staten Island. In LA, there are local addresses from San Pedro to Encino to Hollywood to Westchester and dozens more.
135 hrs PIC (mostly PA-28) - not current. Landings at MDW, PIA, JAN.
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5332
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:09 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
if annual passenger count exceeds 75mil, then up to 10-gates would be withdrawn from use.

Ah California politics.

They always do a great job of making my head hurt because of the stupidity.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 23971
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:08 am

Another way of looking at this might be looking at the link in Reply 19 above.

In that thread there is a list of the 2012 combined metro daily airport totals

LA - 143,312 (BUR-LAX-LGB-ONT-SNA)
CHI - 108,210 (MDW-ORD)


This way one can see how much larger the combine LA metro airports generate compared to the MDW-ORD combo.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 25):
LA CSA numbers can be a bit skewed cuz they usually count the entire san bernadino county which stretches to the border of nevada and arizona

True that, but as someone else mentioned the bulk of the population is near the LA basin, not the very small town far and in between towns out by AZ or NV borders.
And also people here do drive good distances to reach LAX. I know people in San Diego (100miles) and Palm Spings (120miles) that drive to LAX for their flights.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 27):
ORD will over the years see bigger fluctuations in traffic for the same reason that it will most likely always be busier than LAX. It is ideally positioned as a hub. LAX is not. While that position benefits ORD, it also means its traffic numbers are subject to the moods and models of its hub airlines.

   Much of ORD's fate is reliant on what its hub carriers do. LAX on the other hand fate is more tied the hands of the local economy and traffic demand it generate itself.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 5523
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:25 pm

Chinese growth has nothing to do with ATL.

It was two separate statements:

1. ATL is/will be busier than ORD

2. In the future, both ORD and ATL will be behind an airport in China. Look at growth trends
 
luckyone
Posts: 2856
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:38 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 30):
And also people here do drive good distances to reach LAX. I know people in San Diego (100miles) and Palm Spings (120miles) that drive to LAX for their flights.

In which case you start drawing circles around Chicago and bump into Milwaukee, whose numbers might need to be considered. No that wouldn't make it greater than LA when combined with ORD+MDW, but in a pinch I have had to use MKE to get to and from Chicagoland.
 
Mexicana757
Posts: 2671
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2001 3:21 pm

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:23 pm

It wouldn't surprise me if LAX comes out with the #2 spot for 2014. LAX came close to ORD in passenger numbers for 2013. CDA posted the year end numbers last week for both MDW and ORD on the CDA website. MDW experienced another record breaking year in their 86 year history by moving over 20 million passengers in 2013.

ORD 66,906,017 passengers, up 0.11%
MDW 20,474,552 passengers, up 4.91%



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
LAX already posted its 2013 totals last week.

66,667,619 passengers up 4.7%

If LAX continues with that growth rate they will be #2.
 
Lexy
Posts: 1489
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:05 am

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:42 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 23):
America does the the second type of city well. Americans love to tell you a city they live in as they back out from their two car garage and get their mail from a mail box on a pedestal at the end of their lawn. (Hint...not really a city)

That's pathetic. A city isn't defined by how many Row Houses are on a block dude. Give me a break. This is the attitude most people in the world could do without from our friends in the Northeast.
Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 2124
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:56 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 23):
That is a ridiculous statement.

That is where a real city like NYC or London or Paris, or Tokyo shines.

That is also where a city that is hardly a city, but a collection of suburbs around a tiny downtown core gets exposed for what it is...a collection of suburbs surrounding a small downtown no one lives in.

America does the the second type of city well. Americans love to tell you a city they live in as they back out from their two car garage and get their mail from a mail box on a pedestal at the end of their lawn. (Hint...not really a city)

That's all well and good from an urban planning perspective, but the fact is, many people who use a "city's" airport don't live in the city. They live in surrounding areas. CSA is a much better metric than city limit population.

Not to mention cities in the South are much larger (area wise) than their Northern cousins. You simply can't compare (only) city population metrics in different regions to predict air travel trends.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
IAHWorldflyer
Posts: 802
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:22 pm

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:01 pm

Here's a question ( and no more Chicago/LA/NYC baiting, ok?):
Since the airport can't add gates due to an agreement, could they employ the use of tarmac hard stands like those used in most European airports? You know, where the plane parks out to a remote place on the tarmac, airstairs are brought over, and passengers are bused to the terminal?
I personally am not a fan of this, but could LAX airlines use this if they needed more scheduled flights at peak hours?
 
burchfiel
Topic Author
Posts: 479
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:34 am

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:43 pm

Glad to hear that O'Hare's passenger numbers grew this year, albeit slightly. It's their first year of growth since 2010.
 
Beardown91737
Posts: 892
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:56 pm

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:41 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 31):

Thanks. Since we have a large Asian presence in Southern California, I just automatically assumed you meant due to our ties with the Asian region. Sorry about that.
135 hrs PIC (mostly PA-28) - not current. Landings at MDW, PIA, JAN.
 
JHwk
Posts: 574
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:11 am

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:22 pm

Quoting iahworldflyer (Reply 36):
Since the airport can't add gates due to an agreement, could they employ the use of tarmac hard stands like those used in most European airports?
LAX has 15-20 bus gates, some with jet bridges and ramps and some with air stairs at the north west corner of the airport. There are also 10 satellite gates for Terminal 4 east of Sepulveda. Not sure what is counted in terms of the settlement though.

I don't imagine the FBO operations by Landmark count towards either PAX or Gates.

After looking at LAXIntl's linked settlement, it is "163 passenger aircraft gates available for loading and unloading of passengers during scheduled operation." The 10-gate reduction is "Narrow Body Equivalent Gates." Remote gates are included in the count.

[Edited 2014-01-28 12:28:47]
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18432
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:30 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 27):
You must not have ever been to Chicago.

I haven't been outside of ORD in Chicago since I was 7 years old. So its a Chicago thing...

FWIW, no one from Asia calls Chicago the 2nd city... They know its New York and then Los Angeles.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 31):

2. In the future, both ORD and ATL will be behind an airport in China. Look at growth trends

   Both the new Beijing 8 runway airport or PVG once they finally build the 2 more runways. (What is the status?) Or CAN (once 5 runway), or ???.
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:39 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 40):
FWIW, no one from Asia calls Chicago the 2nd city... They know its New York and then Los Angeles.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
Who still calls Chicago the USA's second city? Seriously. It has been New York than LA my entire life for population and economy.

I think Chicago is proud to be behind LA and NY in terms of population. It keep NY-types in NY and LA-types in LA. Its a win-win for everyone really.

It keeps Chicago more liveable  
Step into my office, baby
 
travelin man
Posts: 3237
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:42 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 41):
It keeps Chicago more liveable  

Current temperature in Chicago: 3 degrees F; windchill: -17
Current temperature in Los Angeles: 70 degrees F; windchill: N/A

Your definition of "liveable" may be different from mine. 
 
chicawgo
Posts: 398
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:09 pm

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:59 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 40):
FWIW, no one from Asia calls Chicago the 2nd city... They know its New York and then Los Angeles

You just don't get it... As someone indicated above... it was a tongue in cheek jab published in a New Yorker article in the 1950's... and, in response, Chicagoans embraced it instead of getting angry. It's a NICKNAME like "The Big Apple" which, and this may surprise you, was not derived from New York's shape nor a fruity smell - though, incidentally, the latter perfectly describes the devolved state of this thread.
 
User avatar
United787
Posts: 2883
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 12:20 pm

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:02 pm

Quoting travelin man (Reply 42):
Current temperature in Chicago: 3 degrees F; windchill: -17
Current temperature in Los Angeles: 70 degrees F; windchill: N/A

Your definition of "liveable" may be different from mine.

But that 3 degrees keeps us working harder...
 
User avatar
exFWAOONW
Posts: 672
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:32 pm

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:20 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 29):
Ah California politics.

They always do a great job of making my head hurt because of the stupidity.

  

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 23):
America does the the second type of city well. Americans love to tell you a city they live in as they back out from their two car garage and get their mail from a mail box on a pedestal at the end of their lawn. (Hint...not really a city)

I get my mail delivered at a box on a post with a city address. My property was annexed into the city about 35 years ago. USPS will not change how they deliver the mail without an act of congress. Our downtown is not a doughnut hole, either.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:24 pm

Quoting travelin man (Reply 42):
Current temperature in Chicago: 3 degrees F; windchill: -17
Current temperature in Los Angeles: 70 degrees F; windchill: N/A

Number of Miley Cirus in Chicago: 0
Number of Miley Cirus in LA: 1

Need I say more?

-17F is but a chill - Its a good way to keep "certain types" out :P {half seriously, half kidding]
Step into my office, baby
 
travelin man
Posts: 3237
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:48 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 46):
Number of Miley Cirus in Chicago: 0
Number of Miley Cirus in LA: 1

Need I say more?

Touche  
 
ericaasen
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 5:39 am

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:38 am

Quoting travelin man (Reply 47):
Quoting mt99 (Reply 46):
Number of Miley Cirus in Chicago: 0
Number of Miley Cirus in LA: 1

Need I say more?

Touche  

For the win...

Number of Justin Bieber in Chicago: 0
Number of Justin Bieber in LA: 1

Number of Kardashians in Chicago: 0
Number of Kardashians in LA: 3 (Does Kanye count as one now?)

Thank God for the cold, it keeps the riff-raff out.
 
airbazar
Posts: 9832
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

LAX To Overtake ORD As 2nd Busiest US Airport?

Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:30 pm

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 24):
And thank god not really in the city. I grew up in the city and you couldn't pay me to live there again. I'm out in the far suburbs and wouldn't have it any other way. IMO the city is cluttered, horrendous traffic, usually a lot dirtier, more crime, taxes up the ass, everything is expensive...I can go on if I wanted. I like the suburban life myself

But that's a result of the people who live in it so if you don't like it you should look in the mirror for who to blame. I've been to and even lived in great cities that are nothing like what you describe. Singapore being the perfect example. I now live in the suburbs and I have neighbors who moved out here from the city and still live in the same classless, inconsiderate way: loud, leave the trash out front for days, don't pick up after their dogs, etc.

Personally I think ORD will rebound. They;ve hit a slump because they are more dependent on domestic traffic than LAX and as the conomy rebounds so will ORD's numbers. Secondly, they have probably been affected by the runway reconfiguration and expansion. Once that is completed and delays are alleviated, airlines will be more willing to grow there. I'm not sure what the plan is for gate expansion but LAX is not any better on that area either.

[Edited 2014-01-29 05:32:59]

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos