bharathkv
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:58 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:56 pm

Quoting hohd (Reply 48):

India seems to be in the habit for waiting till the last minute. AI's first entry to Star was botched, Star gave AI three different extensions, but no one in AI took it seriously until the last time. Same here, they were warned 13 months ago that there could be a possible downgrade, but again no one took in seriously, they almost dared the FAA to downgrade.

Star alliance and AI issues are internal to the alliance and the airline. Brushing every thing using a broad brush based on just some incidents are not welcome. Indians take things seriously.

Quoting hohd (Reply 48):
India should realize that not everything is biased or political, the FAA inspectors take their jobs seriously, they are willing to give some allowance, but they wont wait forever for it to be rectified.

Are you saying people in DGCA and other Indian compliance organizations do not take their jobs seriously? Of course everyone takes their jobs seriously.

Quoting hohd (Reply 48):
Although I must admit the skies in India are safer than it was 20 to 30 years ago.

Skies over India are definitely safer than the ones over US. Apparently watching Air-Crash-Investigation will tell you that.  
 
CaliAtenza
Posts: 1681
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:43 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:17 pm

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 50):
Are you saying people in DGCA and other Indian compliance organizations do not take their jobs seriously? Of course everyone takes their jobs seriously.

Are you part of DGCA? Are you qualified to make a statement like that? If everyone took their jobs seriously then this shouldnt have happened. They were informed last month that they needed 75 positions and only yesterday they created the positions. This is the typical thing in India, everything last minute. What was the problem in fixing all of this a long time ago? This is aviation safety here.
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:29 pm

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 43):
When FAA talks about flight personnel and others I just want FAA to check out some air-hostess of United Airlines and American Airlines before commenting on other countries.

Their concern over personnel has to with regulators, not flight attendants. And more specifically regulators who audit pilots and maintainers.

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 43):
I wonder, if there is an issue in an aircraft, will the air-hostess who is 60+ years old and not very agile be able to help other passengers.

Just because she is 60, does not mean that she is not fit to fly. If they pass the medical and physical standards, they are fit. There is no need to discriminate on the basis of age. This isn't Asia, where such nonsensical logic is simply agitprop to ensure that all the flight attendants are young and pretty.

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 49):
At least FAA can be open that about doing the downgrade on basis of politics.

No basis or evidence at all to support such a statement.

I'm Indian. And I know exactly where you sentiment comes from. It comes from that routine defensiveness that every Indian has in assuming that everything elsewhere in the world is due to politics and influence, just like it is in India. I don't buy that one bit in this instance. Why is it hard to accept that the FAA is just going it's job as a regulator to ensure the safety of US citizens flying on Indian carriers and US residents with Indian licensed aircraft operating overhead? If you are going to suggest politics, pray tell, what exactly the FAA or the US would have to gain from brewing up another storm?

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 49):
lets be honest here to say that the rules are flexed and changed according to unions.

Another comment which cannot be substantiated. You are seriously suggesting that the FAA bends to the unions of flight attendants?

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 41):
It will complete 14 deliveries, funding for next 13 has to be appropriated in the next budget.

Every Indian taxpayer should be cheering this on. Seriously. The GoI will finally do what it should have done to AI a long time ago: curtail growth at taxpayer expense. The bigger AI grows, the more it loses. So restrict or stall its growth and the aam aadmi benefits from the sinkhole not growing larger.

And Boeing will be very happy too. Heard AI got the 787s for a song. I'll bet that Boeing won't even charge them much of a penalty. Boeing can simply white tail the birds and sell them to lessors for much more than AI was going to pay.

And what's AI going to do then? Buy A350s at a much higher cost?

Let's all hope this happens and that the GoI follows through on its threats and cancels the next batch of 787s. There are no losers in such a move.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 41):
Somehow we try preach democracy to rest of the world but lack basic understanding how the process works.

The rest of the developed world has also moved on from having state run carriers and needing parliamentary authoritzations to buy airplanes for a civil carrier. That's why such mixing of business and politics is hard to fathom.
 
dtw2hyd
Topic Author
Posts: 7675
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:36 pm

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 44):
This is good, now it will force the DGCA to get things in order. DTW, as an Indian, you should be supporting this cause this is the only way anyone over there will do anything.

You are missing the point, as an Indian origin in USA, I am sick of our government picking up fight with friendly nations and loosing business.

Did they loose their marbles, they should have waited at least until budget is passed. Now Boeing has to pay the price.

Since the audit fiasco started lets see what happened.

US
----
1) Business/Executive Jet Pilots cannot get Indian visa.
2) Boeing and other aviation companies may loose contracts, probably not going to get new orders.
3) UA/DL lost code shares in India. Added benefit for EU/ME carriers.

India
-------
1) AI lost interlining with MQ (actually a plus). They just have to survive on O&D market at US stations they serve cut service.
2) 9W lost code shares with UA (No one India cares)
3) AI *A entry is a lost cause. It wouldn't have lost longer anyway.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 38):
The EASA is just as concerned with non-compliance with ICAO requirements as the FAA is. What happens if the EASA follows the FAA in the IA downgrade?

You should compare ICAO ratings of US and India.

Quoting ytz (Reply 52):
And Boeing will be very happy too. Heard AI got the 787s for a song. I'll bet that Boeing won't even charge them much of a penalty. Boeing can simply white tail the birds and sell them to lessors for much more than AI was going to pay.

AI started a performance audit of B787. Do you think it will pass all KPIs Boeing agreed in the contract. If AI wants to go by book, it can cancel without any charges. And you just to rub it order few A350s at what ever is the cost.

[Edited 2014-01-31 15:48:55]
 
CaliAtenza
Posts: 1681
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:43 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:44 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 52):
I'm Indian. And I know exactly where you sentiment comes from. It comes from that routine defensiveness that every Indian has in assuming that everything elsewhere in the world is due to politics and influence, just like it is in India. I don't buy that one bit in this instance. Why is it hard to accept that the FAA is just going it's job as a regulator to ensure the safety of US citizens flying on Indian carriers and US residents with Indian licensed aircraft operating overhead? If you are going to suggest politics, pray tell, what exactly the FAA or the US would have to gain from brewing up another storm?

Yes, Thank You!! Finally someone said it. I'm Indian too and i hate this stupid behavior of blaming others for one's own problems. Just fix the issues and get on with it. We Indians need to stop this crap, otherwise we will never fix our problems.

Quoting ytz (Reply 52):

to be fair, arent all of the airlines in China state owned?
 
CaliAtenza
Posts: 1681
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:43 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:49 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 53):
You are missing the point, as an Indian origin in USA, I am sick of our government picking up fight with friendly nations and loosing business.

Did they loose their marbles, they should have waited at least until budget is passed. Now Boeing has to pay the price.

Since the audit fiasco started lets see what happened.

i dont understand how this is picking a fight. But it looks like the DGCA is working pretty hard to fix the issues.
 
bharathkv
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:58 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:55 pm

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 51):
Are you part of DGCA? Are you qualified to make a statement like that?

How do you know that DGCA personnel have not taken their job seriously? Are you qualified to answer or deny that in any manner?

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 51):
They were informed last month that they needed 75 positions and only yesterday they created the positions.

If you run an organization it will take time to do things. Were they informed by GOI to add 75 positions? FAA cannot dictate how many personnel an organization hires or fires.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 51):
This is the typical thing in India, everything last minute. What was the problem in fixing all of this a long time ago? This is aviation safety here.

this is exactly what I am pointing your mistake at. You cannot blame that everyone in India takes things to last minute. I also acknowledge your sentiment here on aviation safety but blaming the whole country and saying no one takes things seriously or procrastinates things is not the right attitude.

Quoting ytz (Reply 52):
Just because she is 60, does not mean that she is not fit to fly. If they pass the medical and physical standards, they are fit. There is no need to discriminate on the basis of age. This isn't Asia, where such nonsensical logic is simply agitprop to ensure that all the flight attendants are young and pretty.

Well so you are saying that FAA or other rules in US do not bend to the unions and they are just so awesome great that US does everything right? Also even in US there are lots of discrimination based on everything from head to toe. Older airline crew are kept by airlines because otherwise they need to answer the unions.

Quoting ytz (Reply 52):
I'm Indian. And I know exactly where you sentiment comes from. It comes from that routine defensiveness that every Indian has in assuming that everything elsewhere in the world is due to politics and influence, just like it is in India. I don't buy that one bit in this instance. Why is it hard to accept that the FAA is just going it's job as a regulator to ensure the safety of US citizens flying on Indian carriers and US residents with Indian licensed aircraft operating overhead? If you are going to suggest politics, pray tell, what exactly the FAA or the US would have to gain from brewing up another storm?

I am not the one who is saying that. I am an Indian. So what. My point is that DGCA has acknowledge and is working with FAA. I am all for aviation safety, but saying that FAA or US does not have political motives and just GOI and DGCA have political motive is just hiding the truth.

Quoting ytz (Reply 52):
Another comment which cannot be substantiated. You are seriously suggesting that the FAA bends to the unions of flight attendants?

I am saying not only FAA but even DGCA or any other government organization bends or flexes related to matters involving unions.

Quoting ytz (Reply 52):
The rest of the developed world has also moved on from having state run carriers and needing parliamentary authoritzations to buy airplanes for a civil carrier. That's why such mixing of business and politics is hard to fathom.

Give me a break. Last year US Congress held a session where every US politician denigrated Apple for withholding taxes. US has so many regulations and in fact is more "socialized" country than any other country on the planet.
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:56 pm

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 55):
i dont understand how this is picking a fight. But it looks like the DGCA is working pretty hard to fix the issues.

They had better. Certain member's hurt feelings and chest thumping aside, this is a situation that could snowball.

If other authorities follow suit, the only damage will be to India's carriers as they lose business abroad.

As it stands, the lack of development in the US market for Indian carriers has helped bolster the ME3TK. The DGCA isn't exactly helping the Indian carriers with yet more bungles like this. If EASA follows suit, that'll be yet another market that the Indian authorities are working hard to hand over from Indian carriers to European and ME3TK carriers.

But as DTW2HYD puts it, they don't need widebodies apparently. He's happy to see all of India's carriers reduced to domestic/regional carriers flying narrowbodies. Leave the profitable longer-haul stuff to the foreigners.
 
bharathkv
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:58 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:58 pm

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 54):
Yes, Thank You!! Finally someone said it. I'm Indian too and i hate this stupid behavior of blaming others for one's own problems. Just fix the issues and get on with it. We Indians need to stop this crap, otherwise we will never fix our problems.

Good. So now nobody is doing anything wrong here. I think everyone is on the same page on aviation safety. The problem with some folks here is that saying FAA and US is awesome and all other country is just crappy is wrong. As Indians we need to acknowledge that every country on this planet has issues and that US is not a utopia either.
 
bharathkv
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:58 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:02 am

Quoting ytz (Reply 57):
As it stands, the lack of development in the US market for Indian carriers has helped bolster the ME3TK

That has nothing to do with any downgrade. According to me Indian carriers either are completely oblivious to the market potential or have got money from the ME3 carriers leave alone CX and SQ.

Quoting ytz (Reply 57):
Certain member's hurt feelings and chest thumping aside, this is a situation that could snowball.

The situation is under control with DGCA and FAA working together. No one is having emotions here. It is basically some pointing out mistakes made by the others in the forum.
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:04 am

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 56):
but saying that FAA or US does not have political motives and just GOI and DGCA have political motive is just hiding the truth.

You are the one theorizing this. It is on you to provide evidence to substantiate such a statement. If not, it's FUD plain and simple. And you will be called out in this forum.

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 56):
Last year US Congress held a session where every US politician denigrated Apple for withholding taxes.

Red herring argument. Berating a private corporation for not paying taxes is actually an appropriate practice for a parliamentary body who should rightfully be concerned with taxpayers getting fleeced. Requiring parliamentary approval for an airlines to purchase aircraft is a waste of a legislators time and owning a money-losing airline is a serious abuse of the taxpayer.

To use your analogy, the equivalent would be requiring the US House of Representatives having to authorize Apple importing handsets from Foxconn for sale in its stores.

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 56):
US has so many regulations and in fact is more "socialized" country than any other country on the planet.

More unsubstantiated FUD. Most of us, especially those of us in Canada, would argue that the US has a serious lack of rules and regulations. Let's start with gun control for one. But the ranking of the US on indexes of economic freedom should tell you all you need to know about how much or little the US has in terms of regulation when it comes to business. India would never rank anywhere close on such an index.
 
CaliAtenza
Posts: 1681
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:43 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:12 am

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 56):
this is exactly what I am pointing your mistake at. You cannot blame that everyone in India takes things to last minute. I also acknowledge your sentiment here on aviation safety but blaming the whole country and saying no one takes things seriously or procrastinates things is not the right attitude.

let me point you to this article: http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/eco...pacts-indian-carriers_1035352.html

and then this excerpt:

"“This is a national embarrassment,” said Kapil Kaul, CEO – South Asia at CAPA. The Sydney-based aviation consultancy had in a 2012 study warned of an impending downgrade for DGCA. The FAA had warned India of a similar downgrade in 2009 as well. “Back then, we made some cosmetic changes to address that. But five years since, from a fundamental perspective, we remained the same,” Kaul said. Kaul blamed the government’s slow hiring process that has led to the staff shortage at DGCA, the chief reason behind the downgrade. “In 2009, the shortfall was pegged at 500. If DGCA does a current assessment on what is its shortfall, it might be much higher,” he said."

This has been a problem since 2009. So yes, it is last minute. And no, i'm not the only who is saying it.

Oh please, dont talk to me about the right attitude. We Indians dont take things seriously until someone else points them out to us!! This is the reason why India is such a mess right now. The right attitude would have been to fix things back in 2009. The FAA at least gave a grace period, but even after that, things weren't fixed.

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 56):
I am not the one who is saying that. I am an Indian. So what. My point is that DGCA has acknowledge and is working with FAA. I am all for aviation safety, but saying that FAA or US does not have political motives and just GOI and DGCA have political motive is just hiding the truth.

No you are saying that. i know how this stupid blame game works. Stop doing that and stop bringing in unrelated arguments about whether or not older flight attendants can safely perform their jobs. If you want to talk about that, start another thread. If indians, in India...continue to act like this and keep shifting blame back onto whatever else, then nothing will get fixed. Just fix it, and then we wont have these problems.

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 56):
If you run an organization it will take time to do things. Were they informed by GOI to add 75 positions? FAA cannot dictate how many personnel an organization hires or fires.

As far as i know, there is some standard that DGCA had to have. They havent hired X amount of people, in this case 75. "Take time to do things"; another sorry excuse. This has been a problem since 2009!! Isnt 5 years enough time?!?

[Edited 2014-01-31 16:14:18]
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:12 am

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 54):
Yes, Thank You!! Finally someone said it.

I call it out because I see it all the time from friends and family. India and Indians can do no wrong. And if they are caught, well it's because somebody, somewhere is scheming against them. Never their fault. Ever.

The Brits left India nearly seven decades ago and billions of Indians seem to think that there are still colonial masters in some foreign office working to take advantage of them. And this mentality works ever so conveniently as an excuse for every single shortfall they have.

DGCA has had years of all sorts of warnings. They've had months of direct warnings from the FAA. And they only work to remedy this the day before they know the announcement is coming out? In any developed country, such a fiasco would have resulted in the responsible minister losing his/her portfolio and the responsible bureaucrats either being demoted or shuffled off to less relevant posts. Not so in India.

Thankfully for politicians in India, they'll always have a whole host of characters around the world that would rather look for bogeymen in every shadow trying to hold India down then question their incompetence and hold them accountable.

At this point, I'd say even Lalu Prasad could probably do a better job!
 
VTORD
Posts: 635
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:13 am

Quoting ytz (Reply 52):
And what's AI going to do then? Buy A350s at a much higher cost?

Let's all hope this happens and that the GoI follows through on its threats and cancels the next batch of 787s. There are no losers in such a move.

Let's take a step back here.....if you read the complete article that DTW2HYD has posted from the Business Standard, it says somewhere towards the end that it is unlikely that they will cancel the orders, since some results are already visible and the loss making routes are down to 25% from 69%.

So I seriously don't think that the GoI will do anything rash like that. By the time the committee is formed and presents its findings, most likely a new government will be in place. What they will do I am not sure but if it is who I think it is going to be in the driver's seat in 6 months, then things might get interesting. So let's see what happens over the next few days. Just because one poster thinks India is going to "retaliate" doesn't mean it's going to happen.
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:17 am

Quoting VTORD (Reply 63):
Just because one poster thinks India is going to "retaliate" doesn't mean it's going to happen.

Oh I know he's not very credible in his theories.

I'm just saying, what he perceives to be a threat would actually be a blessing in disguise for everyone invlv
 
bharathkv
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:58 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:18 am

Quoting ytz (Reply 60):
Requiring parliamentary approval for an airlines to purchase aircraft is a waste of a legislators time and owning a money-losing airline is a serious abuse of the taxpayer.

How do you know that requiring airlines to get approval to purchase aircraft is a waste of time but berating apple is not? Denigrating successful companies is a complete waste of tax payer money. That said I am not saying parliamentary approval for aircraft purchasing is great. I am just pointing out your bias towards US laws.

Also when you say FAA and US government are so-great awesome do you have proof to substantiate that "every" ruling or regulation that they have is just so beautiful and made mankind a great place? If so let us know.

Quoting ytz (Reply 60):
Most of us, especially those of us in Canada, would argue that the US has a serious lack of rules and regulations. Let's start with gun control for one. But the ranking of the US on indexes of economic freedom should tell you all you need to know about how much or little the US has in terms of regulation when it comes to business.

Dude US has dropped consistently on the economic freedom index for years now. Either you contradict yourself when you say things or you just outright cry out "Oh how do you substantiate it". It shows your inconsistency,
 
CaliAtenza
Posts: 1681
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:43 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:19 am

Quoting ytz (Reply 62):
I call it out because I see it all the time from friends and family. India and Indians can do no wrong. And if they are caught, well it's because somebody, somewhere is scheming against them. Never their fault. Ever.

Its just immature and childish behavior and i'm tired of it. I had to deal with the same thing all the time when i lived over there. Even with some Indian people here in the States, that same attitude persists.

Quoting ytz (Reply 62):
DGCA has had years of all sorts of warnings. They've had months of direct warnings from the FAA. And they only work to remedy this the day before they know the announcement is coming out? In any developed country, such a fiasco would have resulted in the responsible minister losing his/her portfolio and the responsible bureaucrats either being demoted or shuffled off to less relevant posts. Not so in India.

The article i posted said in 2009, they had a shortfall of 500 people. Isnt 5 years enough to hire people?
 
CaliAtenza
Posts: 1681
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:43 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:22 am

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 65):

Dude US has dropped consistently on the economic freedom index for years now. Either you contradict yourself when you say things or you just outright cry out "Oh how do you substantiate it". It shows your inconsistency,

Again, strawman arguments. The US is 12, India is 120 (http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking). This is not an argument to make here. As an Indian, you should be ashamed. Please tell me you are.

Lets get back to the issue at hand. I hope the DGCA can fix all the issues and get the rating back.
 
bharathkv
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:58 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:24 am

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 61):
Oh please, dont talk to me about the right attitude. We Indians dont take things seriously until someone else points them out to us!! This is the reason why India is such a mess right now. The right attitude would have been to fix things back in 2009. The FAA at least gave a grace period, but even after that, things weren't fixed.
Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 61):
No you are saying that. i know how this stupid blame game works. Stop doing that and stop bringing in unrelated arguments about whether or not older flight attendants can safely perform their jobs. If you want to talk about that, start another thread. If indians, in India...continue to act like this and keep shifting blame back onto whatever else, then nothing will get fixed. Just fix it, and then we wont have these problems.

Who is the one who is calling out all Indians are non-serious here? Who is the one who is saying FAA is great and US is great. Who is the one who is blaming the whole issue on India while saying US is not to be blamed for politics? It is not me.

Quoting ytz (Reply 62):
The Brits left India nearly seven decades ago and billions of Indians seem to think that there are still colonial masters in some foreign office working to take advantage of them. And this mentality works ever so conveniently as an excuse for every single shortfall they have.

ok great. so now there is another person talking completely unrelated things. In fact no one is giving an excuse saying "Oh great British master please save us from extinction". So stop this rhetoric.

Quoting ytz (Reply 62):
Thankfully for politicians in India, they'll always have a whole host of characters around the world that would rather look for bogeymen in every shadow trying to hold India down then question their incompetence and hold them accountable.

There you go again. This forum is about FAA, DGCA and aviation safety. You are taking issues to a higher level now.
 
VTORD
Posts: 635
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:26 am

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 65):
How do you know that requiring airlines to get approval to purchase aircraft is a waste of time

Quite frankly speaking it is. It is infact as absurd as the 5yr/20 aircraft rule. That rule is exactly what made VJM get greedy and take a stupid decision like buying in to Deccan. And one of the chief reasons AI is where it is right now, is because a minister decided to meddle in its shopping plans......But let's get back to topic before its too late.
 
bharathkv
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:58 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:27 am

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 67):
Again, strawman arguments. The US is 12, India is 120 (http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking). This is not an argument to make here. As an Indian, you should be ashamed. Please tell me you are.

Lets get back to the issue at hand. I hope the DGCA can fix all the issues and get the rating back.

As an Indian I am proud. BTW US also feels proud to work with India. I am quite sure you are not ashamed to make this forum into some kind of bazaar fight instead of talking about the issue at hand.
 
bharathkv
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:58 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:29 am

Quoting VTORD (Reply 69):
Quite frankly speaking it is. It is infact as absurd as the 5yr/20 aircraft rule. That rule is exactly what made VJM get greedy and take a stupid decision like buying in to Deccan. And one of the chief reasons AI is where it is right now, is because a minister decided to meddle in its shopping plans......But let's get back to topic before its too late.

I agree. If you read my other part in that post I pointed out exactly that:

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 65):
That said I am not saying parliamentary approval for aircraft purchasing is great. I am just pointing out your bias towards US laws.
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:31 am

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 65):
I am just pointing out your bias towards US laws.

What bias? I am suggesting that parliamentarians being concerned about a corporation not paying taxes are doing their job. And that it is a waste of time for them to micro-manage an airline.

This has nothing to do with "laws". This has everything to do with responsible governance. Those parliamentarians berating Apple were doing their jobs to ensure that the USG takes in revenue from a tax-evading corporation. The success of said company is irrelevant to the proper discharge of their duties. Having the government run an airline and requiring parliamentary approval for the normal business of airline is not good governance. Could you imagine having the US House of Representatives micro-managing American Airlines? Would you think that would be a good idea?

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 65):
Also when you say FAA and US government are so-great awesome do you have proof to substantiate that "every" ruling or regulation that they have is just so beautiful and made mankind a great place? If so let us know.

Strawman argument to begin with.

And then....

Perfect? No. But I'd trust the US Gov and the FAA over the GoI and DGCA any day, especially where my health and safety are concerned. And I'm willing to bet that most Indians in India and outside India would have the exact same point of view.

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 65):
Dude US has dropped consistently on the economic freedom index for years now. Either you contradict yourself when you say things or you just outright cry out "Oh how do you substantiate it". It shows your inconsistency,

They've dropped to be sure. But that's like going from first in your class to fifth. It still doesn't put you in the back of the class with the kids who ride the short bus. The Heritage Foundation ranks the US 12th in the world. It ranks India 120th.
 
CaliAtenza
Posts: 1681
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:43 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:34 am

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 68):

Who is the one who is calling out all Indians are non-serious here? Who is the one who is saying FAA is great and US is great. Who is the one who is blaming the whole issue on India while saying US is not to be blamed for politics? It is not me.

Your first post was this:

"When FAA talks about flight personnel and others I just want FAA to check out some air-hostess of United Airlines and American Airlines before commenting on other countries. I wonder, if there is an issue in an aircraft, will the air-hostess who is 60+ years old and not very agile be able to help other passengers. One who I met in my recent Swiss trip was so old that I cannot believe the airline allows her to fly. When US has so many faults like Airline unions etc blaming that India is not meeting standards is typical US Government hypocrisy."

Never mind your statement about air-hostesses, which isnt even related. You were the one who stated that there is US Government Hypocrisy. I wasnt aware that requiring safety standards to be met was hypocrisy. In fact, if you read the comments on the Indian Aviation forum: http://airlinersindia.s4.bizhat.com/airlinersindia-ftopic13637.html , they seem to be supportive of this move.

Pray tell me what does the US have to gain from this by playing politics? I fail to see what the FAA gains either. All they want is standards to be met. Time has been given since 2009 and the issue has not been solved. So what is the FAA supposed to do, just encourage the same thing?

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 68):
ok great. so now there is another person talking completely unrelated things. In fact no one is giving an excuse saying "Oh great British master please save us from extinction". So stop this rhetoric.

You were the one who brought in something unrelated the minute you mentioned air hosteses. The topic matter at hand is not about that. Its about the DGCA not meeting the standards. This topic is also not about whatever perceived notions you have about whether the FAA is doing this for political reasons or not.
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8348
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:36 am

Wow - just wow - The indian cheerleader has dug himself a huge hole here.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 53):
I am sick of our government picking up fight with friendly nations and loosing business.

I am sick of the Indian government doing nothing.


This is the US FAA protecting US citizens from unsafe flying conditions.

The EU regs are even harsher - they ban airlines and countries from flying into the United States.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 54):
We Indians need to stop this crap, otherwise we will never fix our problems.

Yes Yes Yes

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 55):
But it looks like the DGCA is working pretty hard to fix the issues.

working pretty slowly

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 56):
FAA cannot dictate how many personnel an organization hires or fires.

If carriers want to fly to the US, they can.

Quoting VTORD (Reply 63):
By the time the committee is formed and presents its findings, most likely a new government will be in place.

And three years will go bye

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 41):

Somehow we try preach democracy to rest of the world but lack basic understanding how the process works.

India is such a bad example of democracy for the rest of the world.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
bharathkv
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:58 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:44 am

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 73):
Never mind your statement about air-hostesses, which isnt even related. You were the one who stated that there is US Government Hypocrisy. I wasnt aware that requiring safety standards to be met was hypocrisy. In fact, if you read the comments on the Indian Aviation forum: http://airlinersindia.s4.bizhat.com/airlinersindia-ftopic13637.html , they seem to be supportive of this move.

Sure I never said I don't support better standards on aviation safety. First get one fact right. There is always politics involved in everything when a government is involved. FAA also has political motive here.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 73):
Pray tell me what does the US have to gain from this by playing politics? I fail to see what the FAA gains either. All they want is standards to be met. Time has been given since 2009 and the issue has not been solved. So what is the FAA supposed to do, just encourage the same thing?

DGCA is working with FAA and vice-versa. So I do not know whats your problem here.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 73):
You were the one who brought in something unrelated the minute you mentioned air hosteses. The topic matter at hand is not about that. Its about the DGCA not meeting the standards. This topic is also not about whatever perceived notions you have about whether the FAA is doing this for political reasons or not.

Are you not bringing up unrelated topics here? At least I brought something about air-hostess. You brought things out about how Indians behave. Your post:

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 66):
Its just immature and childish behavior and i'm tired of it. I had to deal with the same thing all the time when i lived over there. Even with some Indian people here in the States, that same attitude persists.
Quoting BestWestern (Reply 74):

Wow - just wow - The indian cheerleader has dug himself a huge hole here.

Well you can look at my response. Looks like you have completely unrelated responses on your comments. Anyway just my thoughts.
 
bharathkv
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:58 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:48 am

Quoting ytz (Reply 72):
What bias? I am suggesting that parliamentarians being concerned about a corporation not paying taxes are doing their job. And that it is a waste of time for them to micro-manage an airline.

The congress is the one who came up with innovative ways to hide taxes etc. So please. Micro-managing airlines is also wrong. I am just saying that you cannot say that Indian parliament is wasting time while US Congress is so great awesome.

Quoting ytz (Reply 72):
Perfect? No. But I'd trust the US Gov and the FAA over the GoI and DGCA any day, especially where my health and safety are concerned. And I'm willing to bet that most Indians in India and outside India would have the exact same point of view.

You have a personal opinion on this. I am not going to say anything on that. Saying most Indians think that way is something that is not proven by you. Just wondering how you came up with it.

Quoting ytz (Reply 72):
They've dropped to be sure. But that's like going from first in your class to fifth. It still doesn't put you in the back of the class with the kids who ride the short bus. The Heritage Foundation ranks the US 12th in the world. It ranks India 120th.

Fine. I never said India is so great awesome either. I am pointing out to you that neither is US thats all.
 
dtw2hyd
Topic Author
Posts: 7675
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:48 am

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 67):
I hope the DGCA can fix all the issues and get the rating back.
Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 55):
But it looks like the DGCA is working pretty hard to fix the issues.

Let me rephrase it for you. DGCA was working hard. Now damage is done they are relaxing. Probably cancelled 75 positions approved by cabinet. This issue will be on back burner until CAA is created, 2-3 years minimum.

Keep in mind India got Cat-1 only in 1997. No big deal if it is lost after couple of decades.

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 59):
The situation is under control with DGCA and FAA working together.

FAA is no longer in consulting role. FAA press release "we are here if they need help" indicates they have been released from the role.

India has to find new agency for consulting may be EASA or JCAB to setup CAA.

Quoting VTORD (Reply 63):
Business Standard, it says somewhere towards the end that it is unlikely that they will cancel the orders, since some results are already visible and the loss making routes are down to 25% from 69%.

Even if AI desperately needs B787s, it has no way to bypass the parliamentary budget approval process. Now they have to find a reason to cancel the order, performance audit of B787 gives a way out. They desperately need narrow bodies, at-least money will be put to good use.
 
CaliAtenza
Posts: 1681
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:43 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:53 am

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 70):

As an Indian I am proud. BTW US also feels proud to work with India. I am quite sure you are not ashamed to make this forum into some kind of bazaar fight instead of talking about the issue at hand.

You feel proud of the rating of 120 and that India is mostly unfree for business? Really? You feel proud that the DGCA has all this time, since 2009, and cant fix these issues?? I dont get it...

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 75):

DGCA is working with FAA and vice-versa. So I do not know whats your problem here.

They need to work faster. They have had time since 2009.

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 75):
Sure I never said I don't support better standards on aviation safety. First get one fact right. There is always politics involved in everything when a government is involved. FAA also has political motive here.

Okay, since you are stuck on this whole political motive thing; tell me what it is. Please do grace us with that...please look into your crystal ball and tell me and the others here what the motive is.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 74):
India is such a bad example of democracy for the rest of the world.

It pains me to say that your statement is true.

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 75):
Are you not bringing up unrelated topics here? At least I brought something about air-hostess. You brought things out about how Indians behave. Your post:

I brought up about how Indians behave because its the reason things have gotten like this. Also, what the heck do air-hostesses have to with regulations that DGCA has to meet?
 
CaliAtenza
Posts: 1681
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:43 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:56 am

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 77):

Let me rephrase it for you. DGCA was working hard. Now damage is done they are relaxing. Probably cancelled 75 positions approved by cabinet. This issue will be on back burner until CAA is created, 2-3 years minimum.

Keep in mind India got Cat-1 only in 1997. No big deal if it is lost after couple of decades.

If DGCA was working hard then why did the downgrade happen? If it just a matter of 75 positions the downgrade wouldnt have happened right? I just want to know because maybe some other stuff hasnt been met either...
 
bharathkv
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:58 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:02 am

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 78):
You feel proud of the rating of 120 and that India is mostly unfree for business? Really? You feel proud that the DGCA has all this time, since 2009, and cant fix these issues?? I dont get it...

Of course. Just like you are proud to say that every Indian is bad, I feel proud to say that I am an Indian. Only people who dont feel proud of what they are will make fun of everyone else.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 78):
Okay, since you are stuck on this whole political motive thing; tell me what it is. Please do grace us with that...please look into your crystal ball and tell me and the others here what the motive is.

You also have a crystal ball on DGCA and GIO right. See that and say something too.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 78):
Quoting BestWestern (Reply 74):
India is such a bad example of democracy for the rest of the world.

It pains me to say that your statement is true.

India is the largest democracy in the world. If you guys think its bad then I have nothing to say since it is your personal opinion.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 78):
I brought up about how Indians behave because its the reason things have gotten like this. Also, what the heck do air-hostesses have to with regulations that DGCA has to meet?

What do you mean? Just because there are a few folks here who say the same does not mean that Indians have not progressed. My point is that when regulatory organizations in US can allow unfit air-hostess (some people here have disagreed on the unfit part. thats fine.) to work in US airlines then there is no point saying that those regulatory bodies are not worried about unions or political pressure.
 
CaliAtenza
Posts: 1681
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:43 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:02 am

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 76):
Fine. I never said India is so great awesome either. I am pointing out to you that neither is US thats all.

12 is a LOT better than 120. Thats why he is pointing out the fallacy of your argument.

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 76):
You have a personal opinion on this. I am not going to say anything on that. Saying most Indians think that way is something that is not proven by you. Just wondering how you came up with it.

Frankly, i'm in agreement with ytz because if most Indians who are in government didnt think that way, things would be much better off than they are now
 
ROSWELL41
Posts: 777
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2001 3:50 am

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:03 am

Astounding how any rebuke of the Indian government by the US is always seen as something of a political nature and to be retaliated against. I think the Indian government needs to grow a thicker skin if they wish to be taken seriously in the western world. The expelled diplomat, the explosion of violence against women and now the demotion to FAA Cat 2 status. It's been a tough couple of weeks for India.
 
CaliAtenza
Posts: 1681
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:43 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:12 am

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 81):

Of course. Just like you are proud to say that every Indian is bad, I feel proud to say that I am an Indian. Only people who dont feel proud of what they are will make fun of everyone else.

I didnt say every Indian is bad, my blame goes towards those in government and those who keep shifting the reasons for their problems onto someone else, like what is happening here. When aviation experts in India are saying the downgrade happened for a good reason, then what else can you say. Read the comments on the NDTV website; the vast majority of people actually think this is good that it happened.

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 81):
You also have a crystal ball on DGCA and GIO right. See that and say something too.

You brought up the argument about politics, you give me your answer. The onus is on you to prove your statements, not me.

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 81):
What do you mean? Just because there are a few folks here who say the same does not mean that Indians have not progressed. My point is that when regulatory organizations in US can allow unfit air-hostess (some people here have disagreed on the unfit part. thats fine.) to work in US airlines then there is no point saying that those regulatory bodies are not worried about unions or political press

Look, Indians and India has progressed. But there is still a LONG way to go. They are unfit according to you, not to anyone else, and certainly not to the FAA. So thats your argument. Nevermind about Unions or whatever business that is. As long as they meet the standard, they can work.
 
bharathkv
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:58 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:13 am

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 82):
12 is a LOT better than 120. Thats why he is pointing out the fallacy of your argument.

I never said India was better than US or vice-versa. My whole argument is about the fact that some members are so anti-India and just quote everything that happens there with a broad brush that everyone in India is like that. Thats what I am disagreeing with them on. Not on the safety issue or that DGCA and FAA have cordially agreed to work together.

Yes there are issues in India. So too in US. Every time I bring this up 3 or 4 members just jump and say I am wrong. Government agencies have political in US, India and other nations. Everyone would agree on that. So I think we all on the same page with respect to:

Yes - safety is important
Yes - DGCA has made mistakes and is slow
Yes - DGCA and FAA are working together.

What I want people to understand is do not paint everyone with a broad brush.
 
CaliAtenza
Posts: 1681
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:43 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:13 am

Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 83):

Astounding how any rebuke of the Indian government by the US is always seen as something of a political nature and to be retaliated against. I think the Indian government needs to grow a thicker skin if they wish to be taken seriously in the western world. The expelled diplomat, the explosion of violence against women and now the demotion to FAA Cat 2 status. It's been a tough couple of weeks for India.

Exactly. Its becoming the same dog and pony show and frankly its becoming sad.
 
CaliAtenza
Posts: 1681
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:43 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:15 am

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 85):
I never said India was better than US or vice-versa. My whole argument is about the fact that some members are so anti-India and just quote everything that happens there with a broad brush that everyone in India is like that. Thats what I am disagreeing with them on. Not on the safety issue or that DGCA and FAA have cordially agreed to work together.

Yes there are issues in India. So too in US. Every time I bring this up 3 or 4 members just jump and say I am wrong. Government agencies have political in US, India and other nations. Everyone would agree on that. So I think we all on the same page with respect to:

Yes - safety is important
Yes - DGCA has made mistakes and is slow
Yes - DGCA and FAA are working together.

What I want people to understand is do not paint everyone with a broad brush.

We arent anti India. We are pointing out the same behavior that has led to these problems occuring. There is no excuse for the DGCA to be slow when it comes to matters of safety.
 
bharathkv
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:58 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:17 am

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 84):
They are unfit according to you, not to anyone else, and certainly not to the FAA

I said the opposite. Indians are capable and are progressing. So take care that US does not fall from 12th to 120th place.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 84):
You brought up the argument about politics, you give me your answer. The onus is on you to prove your statements, not me.

If you say there is no politics then do you have a competent argument for that instead of bashing India?

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 84):
I didnt say every Indian is bad, my blame goes towards those in government and those who keep shifting the reasons for their problems onto someone else, like what is happening here.

Please read your previous posts and see. Everything points exactly to the opposite.
 
bharathkv
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:58 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:20 am

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 87):
We arent anti India. We are pointing out the same behavior that has led to these problems occuring.

An argument that bashing India blindly is wrong- cannot be told that it has led to problems. Just because DGCA and GOI are slow does not mean everyone else is.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 87):
There is no excuse for the DGCA to be slow when it comes to matters of safety.

I agree. DGCA and FAA are working together on this. So we can put that to rest I think.
 
dtw2hyd
Topic Author
Posts: 7675
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:26 am

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 80):
If DGCA was working hard then why did the downgrade happen? If it just a matter of 75 positions the downgrade wouldnt have happened right? I just want to know because maybe some other stuff hasnt been met either...

These 75 positions are like USPS employee with President's salary. CAA will be self funded(some one can confirm) and no restriction on salary. Now with downgrade there is no point in creating these positions.

Other issue is B787 flight safety inspectors having conflict of interest. Because AI is the only carrier with B787, DGCA deputed pilots from AI as FSIs. FAA says that is a conflict of interest, but doesn't help to resolve. One option was to hire from Boeing, now may be from ANA/JAL.

All in all, US lost quite a bit of money now. FAA consulting role, Boeing Flight Safety Inspectors along with others.

Not having code share doesn't stop US pax from buying and traveling beyond US carrier stations in India. It is just a hassle.

Keep in mind JCAB and DGCA were in same conundrum, but resolved issues amicably.
 
CaliAtenza
Posts: 1681
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:43 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:41 am

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 88):
If you say there is no politics then do you have a competent argument for that instead of bashing India?

again, i didnt start the politics argument, you did. So you tell me why you think this is so political. I dont think it is, simply because time has been given and conditions werent met.

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 88):
I said the opposite. Indians are capable and are progressing. So take care that US does not fall from 12th to 120th place.

No, you said the air hosteses are old, and unfit and you cant believe they are working because of their unions or whatever nonsense that you said. I think the US will be fine and not fall to 120. The world would be a very different place if that ever happened.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 90):
These 75 positions are like USPS employee with President's salary. CAA will be self funded(some one can confirm) and no restriction on salary. Now with downgrade there is no point in creating these positions.

Other issue is B787 flight safety inspectors having conflict of interest. Because AI is the only carrier with B787, DGCA deputed pilots from AI as FSIs. FAA says that is a conflict of interest, but doesn't help to resolve. One option was to hire from Boeing, now may be from ANA/JAL.

All in all, US lost quite a bit of money now. FAA consulting role, Boeing Flight Safety Inspectors along with others.

Not having code share doesn't stop US pax from buying and traveling beyond US carrier stations in India. It is just a hassle.

Keep in mind JCAB and DGCA were in same conundrum, but resolved issues amicably.

Why do you think this all happened though? Is it really political, is it really something else?
 
747megatop
Posts: 1760
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 8:22 am

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:50 am

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 8):
Allegedly cancelling orders is a proven technique to deal with FAA.

Whom all can they deal with? US? Japan? and who knows, potentially the Europeans might follow suit. Why not just fix the problems? Moreover, carriers in India are not like the MEB3 who order planes by the hundreds, so i doubt if the manufacturers or their respective govts. would sweat much.
 
747megatop
Posts: 1760
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 8:22 am

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:59 am

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 75):
FAA also has political motive here.

Who says lightning doesn't strike twice at the same place? The spat with Japan and now USA makes me think this is not political. It will be interesting to see what Europe does.

If they don't take any action and clear India then can that also be called "political" in the anticipation that India will place more orders with Airbus, Dassault etc. and not the fact that DGCA passed the audit?
 
xdlx
Posts: 945
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:29 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:35 am

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 80):

Part of the problem is that in India things are redundant and inefficient. Waiting for the approval of an obscure Official is a pastime and the respect for time is non-existent. DGCA and their processes are not created with the objective of efficiency. And in the 21st century.... They STILL love those rubber stamps.
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8348
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:37 am

Very similar arguements came from Angola when the EU banned them... care to cast your mind back as to what happened soon afterwards?

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 75):
At least I brought something about air-hostess

Your ageist and sexist remarks were noted, and ignored as they were ageist and sexist.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 77):
DGCA was working hard.

But not hard enough.

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 81):
India is the largest democracy in the world.

But not a shining example of a functional democracy? If you were China, would you replace their government with the Indian model based on the outcomes.

Large doesn't mean good.

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 85):
Yes - DGCA and FAA are working together.

Were working together.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 77):
Keep in mind India got Cat-1 only in 1997. No big deal if it is lost after couple of decades.

I suppose its OK to regress

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 88):
Indians are capable and are progressing.

Keep believing that being downgraded is progression.

See above.

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 89):
Just because DGCA and GOI are slow does not mean everyone else is.

This article is about the DGCA and GOI.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 90):
Now with downgrade there is no point in creating these positions.

Sure who needs aviation safety.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
CaliAtenza
Posts: 1681
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:43 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:08 am

Quoting xdlx (Reply 94):

Part of the problem is that in India things are redundant and inefficient. Waiting for the approval of an obscure Official is a pastime and the respect for time is non-existent. DGCA and their processes are not created with the objective of efficiency. And in the 21st century.... They STILL love those rubber stamps.

Oh i know how this is India is; when i was there i've expierenced it, my parents much worse. But the thing is, the problems were pointed out in 2009. I'm just saying that its not political at all, just that time ran out and India hasnt complied, thats it.
 
sankaps
Posts: 1692
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:51 am

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:19 am

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 27):
Being an expert in aircraft leasing, you should be aware every single aircraft purchase/lease has to be approved by GoI. First of all no one believes SpiceJet's order is real. It may be hard for SpiceJet to become an Airbus/CSeries/SSJ operator, but they will have no option if no one is approving the purchase/lease.

Precisely why I say this will not impact Boeing orders and leases, at least for Jet and SpiceJet. You are still making assertions, the facts will prove you wrong. And the SpiceJet MAX order is believed to be real by most who are in the know; you apparently are not in that set.

Quoting bharathkv (Reply 81):
India is the largest democracy in the world. If you guys think its bad then I have nothing to say since it is your personal opinion.

India may be the world's largest democracy, but the government bodies work in a pretty authoritarian manner. While the DGCA should have been busy trying to pass the FAA audit, they were instead spending time issuing directives to the Indian privately-owned LCCs to provide "VIP service" for all Indian MPs. I think that says it all.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/contradic...to-treat-mps-as-vips/448667-3.html
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8348
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:42 am

Quoting sankaps (Reply 97):
DGCA should have been busy trying to pass the FAA audit, they were instead spending time issuing directives to the Indian privately-owned LCCs to provide "VIP service" for all Indian MPs. I think that says it all.

Ah yes - true democracy in action. I love how they denied it.

I can see how this happened.

I will never forget the day when I visited the Airports Authority of India in their Delhi head office - to be shown their offices and the directorate team. after meeting the team, I was then introduced to their computer. Turned off, under a dust sheet at the side of a central office, outside the directors office door. They all used typewriters. That was four years ago.

I also sat it on a multi airport management meeting in Chennai where they argued for thirty minutes regarding the price of tenders for the forthcoming tender for coconut water. The argument was around increasing the tender price by $15 USD.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
flyenthu
Posts: 590
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:37 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:01 am

To Bestwestern "But not a shining example of a functional democracy? If you were China, would you replace their government with the Indian model based on the outcomes. "

Let's not get all high and mighty here. The Chinese do not have the choice nor chance to "replace their government." Period. Indians can, have, and will. India is a democracy and people get to exercise their "free will." I bet there will be millions of Chinese who would want free press, want to vote, and want to have more than one child as these rights are available in India.

That being said, the FAA noncompliance should be worked upon by Indian DGCA to earn back Cat 1.

[Edited 2014-01-31 22:02:47]
 
hh65man
Posts: 183
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:52 am

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:09 am

This topic is making me dizzy, think I'll have a head ache now.....  

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