BestWestern
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:25 am

I am a firm believer in Democracy. India, however is not the shining example to convince Asian economies of its benefits.

Some examples why

India, where, in the southern states of Tamil Nadu, Karnataka and Andhra Pradesh, more than 40% of voters were said to receive money for their votes. And I will quote the Wall Street Journal for that.

http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2...nal-whats-wrong-with-buying-votes/

No wonder India has been ranked below neighbours Sri Lanka and China for corruption

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-15979646

In 2012 India has ranked 94th out of 176 countries in Transparency International's Corruption Perceptions Index, tied with Benin, Colombia, Djibouti, Greece, Moldova, Mongolia, and Senegal.

A study conducted by Transparency International in year 2005 found that more than 62% of Indians had firsthand experience of paying bribes or influence peddling to get jobs done in public offices successfully.[2][3] In its study conducted in year 2008, Transparency International reports about 40% of Indians had firsthand experience of paying bribes or using a contact to get a job done in public office.

A 2009 survey of the leading economies of Asia, revealed Indian bureaucracy to be not only the least efficient out of Singapore, Hong Kong, Thailand, South Korea, Japan, Malaysia, Taiwan, Vietnam, China, Philippines and Indonesia, but also that working with India's civil servants was a "slow and painful" process.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_India


Indian Democracy has left Literacy rates in some provinces as low as 42%.

http://www.e-ir.info/2012/11/23/to-w...t-is-india-a-successful-democracy/
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ojas
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:25 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 35):
This has a huge impact on AI and 9W due to the code shares.

Impact on AI? no one code shares on AI services to the USA and neither do they have too much interested in beyond NYC/ORD market. AI is happy with the Indian domestic feed they get to these flights.

Quoting hohd (Reply 48):
India seems to be in the habit for waiting till the last minute.

True to a certain extent.


I'm happy this downgrade has happened. At least the "chalta hai" attitude is met with some sanction and more importantly the DGCA focuses more on safety and maintenance standards rather than sending ridiculous circulars to give politicians more perks when flying.

I guess downgrade will be reviewed and it will be business as usual in a couple of months.
Great leaders don't tell you what to do ... they show you how it's done!
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:55 am

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 98):
To Bestwestern "But not a shining example of a functional democracy? If you were China, would you replace their government with the Indian model based on the outcomes. "

Let's not get all high and mighty here. The Chinese do not have the choice nor chance to "replace their government." Period. Indians can, have, and will. India is a democracy and people get to exercise their "free will." I bet there will be millions of Chinese who would want free press, want to vote, and want to have more than one child as these rights are available in India.

That being said, the FAA noncompliance should be worked upon by Indian DGCA to earn back Cat 1

thats all fine; but every time some topic comes up related to India; the same complaints and arguments start, "Oh America is a big bully, America plays dirty politics, blah blah blah". Cant the Indian side just get things done in a timely fashion and avoid all this mess in the first place?? The issue here is the non compliance. This quandry was raised in 2009. India has had 5 years to fix this problem. It wasnt fixed till now, or it was being fixed but not fast enough. Now who's fault is that?? The US authorities will enforce things that they have to. A grace period of frankly too long was given, and the time ran out. No need to cry over spilled milk. Just admit that it wasnt fixed, dont bring strawman arguments into it, and move on.
 
flyenthu
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:09 am

CaliAtenza:
"thats all fine; but every time some topic comes up related to India; the same complaints and arguments start, "Oh America is a big bully, America plays dirty politics, blah blah blah". Cant the Indian side just get things done in a timely fashion and avoid all this mess in the first place?? The issue here is the non compliance. This quandry was raised in 2009. India has had 5 years to fix this problem. It wasnt fixed till now, or it was being fixed but not fast enough. Now who's fault is that?? The US authorities will enforce things that they have to. A grace period of frankly too long was given, and the time ran out. No need to cry over spilled milk. Just admit that it wasnt fixed, dont bring strawman arguments into it, and move on."

I fully get your point. I was just responding so that issues do not get mixed. If you see my first response, you will note that I favor FAA compliance and I restate that again in the response from which you quoted. The FAA downgrade and Indian noncompliance is one thing, but blasting India for trying to adhere to democratic principles is another thing. The latter is way too noble compared to FAA noncompliance, which I realize is very important as well. It is as different as apples and oranges.

[Edited 2014-01-31 23:15:28]
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:16 am

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 105):
I fully get your point. I was just responding so that issues do not get mixed. If you see my first response, you will note that I favor FAA compliance and I restate that again in the response from which you quoted. The FAA downgrade and Indian noncompliance is one thing, but blasting India for trying to adhere to democratic principles is another thing. The latter is way too noble compared to FAA noncompliance. It is as different as apples and oranges.

I understand what you were trying to say  . My ire wasnt towards you at all, it was just towards the topic in general. Some people will come out of the woodwork every time and spew the same tired old arguments. Its happened with India related topics in the Non-Av section as well. The whole incident with the Consulate officer and the Maid was just ugly..and the thread over there reflected that.
 
SATexan
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:37 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 100):
I am a firm believer in Democracy. India, however is not the shining example to convince Asian economies of its benefits.
Quoting BestWestern (Reply 74):
India is such a bad example of democracy for the rest of the world.
Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 78):
It pains me to say that your statement is true.

A discourse on democracy might be irrelevant to the current thread but I feel compelled to address a couple of things. In India, every vote counts in the Parliamentary elections. In the US, if you are a Republican in California or New York or a Democrat in Texas, your vote doesn't matter whatsoever. In India you have several political parties and several candidates to choose from in any given election while in the US you have just two. Gerrymandering and electoral re-districting is more common in the States. Further, in India, newspapers act like watchdogs of the government and do not endorse political candidates seeking offices. Furthermore, in India, an independent election commission has to conduct and certify the elections. Here in the US, the media usually "projects" a winner even before the votes are counted by the election authority. The media, with a plethora of 'exit polls' tries to 'swing' voters by using voter samples/profiles that fit the results that appear to be pre-determined. Votes are bought ALL over the world and India is no exception. As you can see, in principle, India is a good example of democracy.

Back to the topic: India simply cannot afford a FAA downgrade. Safety can never be an issue that can be compromised in a country like India. So they need to get their act together and correct the deficiencies.
 
BestWestern
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:58 am

Quoting ojas (Reply 101):
AI is happy with the Indian domestic feed they get to these flights.

No wonder AI is losing a fortune.

Quoting SATexan (Reply 105):
Further, in India, newspapers act like watchdogs of the government and do not endorse political candidates seeking offices.

Come off it.


The Press Council of India’s once suppressed report on paid news, which indicted many publishers and broadcasters of taking money for reporting on state assembly elections in 2004 and 2009; praising one candidate while maligning others; which had a significant effect on the voting results is finally out.

http://www.moneylife.in/article/paid...ia-undermines-democracy/22980.html

Quoting SATexan (Reply 105):
Votes are bought ALL over the world

When was the last time you were paid money to vote for a candidate?

Quoting SATexan (Reply 105):
As you can see, in principle, India is a good example of democracy.

Consider this:

Every MP in the Lok Sabha or the lower house of the Indian parliament under the age of 30 had inherited a seat.
More than two thirds of the 66 MPs aged 40 or under are hereditary MPs.
Every Congress MP under the age of 35 was a hereditary MP.
Nearly 40% of the 66 ministers who are members of the Lok Sabha were hereditary members.
Nearly 70% of the women MPs have family connections.

If the trend continued," concludes French, "it was possible that most members of the Indian Parliament would be there by heredity alone, and the nation would be back to where it had started before the freedom struggle, with rule by a hereditary monarch and assorted Indian princelings." He also worries the next Lok Sabha will be a "house of dynasts".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereport...11/01/is_india_sliding_into_a.html
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ytz
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:08 am

It is truly sad and telling that some who have experienced the bureaucracy in India have become so jaded that even when living outside India they can't even fathom a reality where a government regulator actually does its job without a political motive.

As for being "anti-Indian" (despite being born in Bandra, Bombay), I get that from other Indians including my parents. Most recently when I suggested there was something seriously wrong there with all the rapes and my female cousins there complaining of eve-teasing (sexual harassment and molestation). Apparently, that makes me anti-Indian.

Just like speaking out against Canada's restrictions on some carriers makes me anti-Canadian to some posters, despite nearly a decade and a half in the military.

The "anti" badge is one I wear with pride. Because I know whoever uses it has only weak arguments and doesn't like that I'm speaking the truth.

DGCA had 5 years. They didn't comply. How much more time should they have gotten? I have a feeling those lazy bureaucrats never actually thought the FAA would follow through with its promises. "Chaalta hai" indeed. And so they were caught with their pants down. How else to explain that they are hiring 75 personnel the very day before the FAA presser? Are we supposed to believe that's a coincidence and had nothing to do with the courtesy call the FAA likely gave them?

Yet, instead of calling out their incompetency, some were want to feign righteous indignation that the FAA had the audacity to actually do its job.

89 countries have Cat 1. Many are poorer than India. Drop the excuses. And start demanding accountability. That is the only way India will actually improve within our lifetimes.
 
ytz
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:14 am

Only in India does a minister keep his portfolio after screwing up this badly.
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:16 am

Quoting ytz (Reply 107):
As for being "anti-Indian" (despite being born in Bandra, Bombay), I get that from other Indians including my parents. Most recently when I suggested there was something seriously wrong there with all the rapes and my female cousins there complaining of eve-teasing (sexual harassment and molestation). Apparently, that makes me anti-Indian.

How does that make you anti-indian?  
Quoting ytz (Reply 107):

DGCA had 5 years. They didn't comply. How much more time should they have gotten? I have a feeling those lazy bureaucrats never actually thought the FAA would follow through with its promises. "Chaalta hai" indeed. And so they were caught with their pants down. How else to explain that they are hiring 75 personnel the very day before the FAA presser? Are we supposed to believe that's a coincidence and had nothing to do with the courtesy call the FAA likely gave them?

They probably thought oh we can hire the people at our own rate, the FAA wont do anything, it will be business as usual, etc. I'm glad the FAA came down hard and downgraded the status. It will get their butts moving to fix everything.
 
ojas
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:25 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 106):
No wonder AI is losing a fortune.

BOM - EWR and DEL - ORD, 2 of the 3 US flights are doing very well operationally.
Great leaders don't tell you what to do ... they show you how it's done!
 
bennett123
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:09 pm

Surely BOM - EWR and DEL-ORD are international flights.

They may be making money on those, but what about BOM or DEL to locations in India?.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:51 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 100):
I am a firm believer in Democracy. India, however is not the shining example

So, how do you know all this, because it is a true democracy information flows freely whether is good or bad. Do you think an aviation analyst can talk bad about China without persecution and any bad information will be scrubbed from all sources. So lets stay on topic.

Quoting ytz (Reply 107):
DGCA had 5 years. They didn't comply. How much more time should they have gotten? I have a feeling those lazy bureaucrats never actually thought the FAA would follow through with its promises. "Chaalta hai" indeed. And so they were caught with their pants down. How else to explain that they are hiring 75 personnel the very day before the FAA presser? Are we supposed to believe that's a coincidence and had nothing to do with the courtesy call the FAA likely gave them?

Question is did FAA threw blind to others major safety concerns because of large orders? If that is true FAA has no moral ground to blame DGCA.

If DGCA is such badly run organization why ICAO offered DGCA head ICAO APAC head position? This put GoI in a dilemma, should GoI refuse him the lifetime opportunity to deal with DGCA issues or find someone else to lead DGCA and face consequences.

IMO, India probably has enough clout with in UN to alter ICAO charter to upgrade ICAO audit standards and do away with peer audits. Looks like FAA is not happy about it. If you do the math probably 3 other countries with FAA and rest with India.

[Edited 2014-02-01 04:53:52]
 
bennett123
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:00 pm

If you do away with peer audits, does this mean no external checks on the performance/standard of National regulators?.
 
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atcsundevil
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:38 pm

Too many of the comments in this thread are completely mis-directed. One might think from reading this that the FAA has completely screwed India, that India has done nothing to deserve this, and that India has tried everything they could to rectify the issues.

What a load of crap. As mentioned ad nauseam, India had five years to comply. FIVE YEARS. That is far more than a reasonable courtesy to allow them time to get their house in order, but it's clear that they dragged their feet...much more than can be blamed on simple government bureaucracy. The FAA had to draw its line somewhere, even if India promised it was trying really, really hard. Yes, it takes time as a government entity, but the FAA is also a government entity -- as is every other country that the FAA audits and cites deficiencies that could potentially cause a downgrade, but nearly all of them manage to fix documented shortfalls to come into compliance before being downgraded.

The FAA works with the respective country as much as possible so that it doesn't come to this, so the fact that it did come to this means that India wasn't taking this seriously enough. The FAA has a responsibility to ensure proper safety oversight in other countries not only to benefit the American flying public, but to benefit the world, because the FAA is viewed as the preeminent body which much of the world relies upon for things like this.

India may be trying, and they will have every opportunity to return to Cat I compliance, but just because they are trying doesn't mean the downgrade wasn't justified given the amount of time and warning afforded to them. This was not done out of spite against India, and any thoughts otherwise are simply foolish. I think that way too many people are taking this personally and feel that any amount of scrutiny is unjustified. If they quit complaining and being "disappointed" and actually worked hard to fix the issues, they'd be in compliance and none if this would matter anymore.

Honestly, some of these comments make the FAA sound like some evil, corrupt organization out to slander India...because it's the FAA's fault that India can't maintain a minimum level of safety standards that 95% of the rest of the world is otherwise capable of managing  

Just fix it and get on with it. It's pretty simple.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:37 pm

If the allegations are true and FAA is throwing blind eye to real safety concerns, how does it make US Citizens safe?

[Edited 2014-02-01 06:46:44 by SA7700]
 
ordbosewr
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:57 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 23):
India is not a dictatorship and Indian aviation is not family run business. It will take as long as it takes.

And that is exactly why they should be downgraded.
To say it will take as long as it takes is the wrong attitude. It is a government attitude. It is an arrogant attitude.
It is NOT a priority attitude.

If India was concerned about the ramifications, then they make it a priority and fix everything or accept the downgrade like an adult.
IMHO, the FAA does not think India has completed enough to say they are making a priority.
I remain at the point I made when quoting the FAA press release, India has had 13 months to rectify the problems found.

They have not, alot can be done in 13 months, but the proper attitude must be in place to make it happen and maybe that is void in India.
 
BestWestern
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:59 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 112):
Do you think an aviation analyst can talk bad about China without persecution

Please point to one - just one - aviation analyst that was persecuted in China.


For the rest of us - just compare the IACO scoring for China and India...

http://www.icao.int/safety/Pages/USOAP-Results.aspx

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 112):
Question is did FAA threw blind to others major safety concerns because of large orders? If that is true FAA has no moral ground to blame DGCA.

Have you any proof of this, or are you yet again just spouting rubbish?
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larshjort
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:02 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 112):
Question is did FAA threw blind to others major safety concerns because of large orders? If that is true FAA has no moral ground to blame DGCA.

Did they? you have mentioned this a few times before in this thread, but you have never even mentioned WHO you are referring to.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 112):
IMO, India probably has enough clout with in UN to alter ICAO charter to upgrade ICAO audit standards and do away with peer audits. Looks like FAA is not happy about it. If you do the math probably 3 other countries with FAA and rest with India.

How do you propose this will Work? That the DGCA of the Central African Republic will audit itself and every ICAO member should believe it?

/Lars
139, 306, 319, 320, 321, 332, 34A, AN2, AT4, AT5, AT7, 733, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 146, AR1, BH2, CN1, CR2, DH1, DH3, DH4,
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:25 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 117):
Have you any proof of this, or are you yet again just spouting rubbish?
Quoting larshjort (Reply 118):
Did they? you have mentioned this a few times before in this thread, but you have never even mentioned WHO you are referring to.

Do your research. There are quite a aviation analysts saying this off the record. If they go on record they fear they won't get any more interviews.

Quoting larshjort (Reply 118):
How do you propose this will Work? That the DGCA of the Central African Republic will audit itself and every ICAO member should believe it?

Only ICAO will be able audit any CAA in the world and every one have to abide by the results. Just like IAEA. Then audits are fair.
 
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Web500sjc
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:36 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 119):

When you throw out a new accusation, have to prove the allegation, give some actual problem or quote a credible person. You have not proven anything, you just said "some say."


I am not going to say that the FAA is perfect, but when the FAA finds safety issues they are among the fastest of the beuracracy to fix it.
Boiler Up!
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:50 pm

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 120):
When you throw out a new accusation, have to prove the allegation, give some actual problem or quote a credible person. You have not proven anything, you just said "some say."

I know the rules and etiquette of posting. So, I prefixed "Allegedly" or in a question form.

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 120):
I am not going to say that the FAA is perfect, but when the FAA finds safety issues they are among the fastest of the beuracracy to fix it.

For decades US based airlines were self-regulated and FAA treated them as customers. There are documentaries about their deficiencies. Only recently their focus changed. BTW, one of their charter is to promote aviation industry.

How many years FAA gives to US carriers any given deficiency. Minimum 6 years. The B767 fix (in the news) was advised in 2006/7. Now they are checking if every operator is complaint.

[Edited 2014-02-01 07:51:33]
 
BestWestern
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:52 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 119):
Do your research. There are quite a aviation analysts saying this off the record. If they go on record they fear they won't get any more interviews.

Just point a link to one credible analyst or credible article that states the FAA is beholden to aircraft orders. Just one from the last decade.

Just like the EU don't worry about aircraft orders when banning airlines and countries.


You have made a rubbish claim, and can't back it up - and can only mention an off the record quote, and won't even link that.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 119):
Only ICAO will be able audit any CAA in the world and every one have to abide by the results. Just like IAEA. Then audits are fair.

The FAA has the final say as to who flies to the US, just like the DGCA in India.

Anyway - back to the initial post - India was downgraded.

Where does the fault lie?

[Edited 2014-02-01 08:23:18 by SA7700]
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mandala499
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:21 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 1):

India is very sensitive to this... They want to be seen as a leading emerging market

Well, emerging markets having to be downgraded at some stage is actually not surprising.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 32):
They may not even try to regain Cat-I. Then what.

Then what? Hull insurance rates rising anyone?   

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 53):
1) Business/Executive Jet Pilots cannot get Indian visa.

It's already becoming harder for Business/Executive Jet Pilots from other nations...

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 53):
2) Boeing and other aviation companies may loose contracts, probably not going to get new orders.

If they need planes, they need planes.
EU slapped a ban on us and FAA slapped a Cat II status on us, and we're still making headlines on aircraft orders from Boeing and Airbus...

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 38):
The EASA is just as concerned with non-compliance with ICAO requirements as the FAA is. What happens if the EASA follows the FAA in the IA downgrade?

FAA's downgrade sentence would be reflected in the next ICAO audit, and EU usually follows suit not long after the audit... that happened to us...

Quoting VTORD (Reply 69):
It is infact as absurd as the 5yr/20 aircraft rule.
Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 79):
If DGCA was working hard then why did the downgrade happen? If it just a matter of 75 positions the downgrade wouldnt have happened right? I just want to know because maybe some other stuff hasnt been met either...

LOL! Indian DGCA needs to watch out... shoving 75 people in doesn't result in magic... the results have to be translated into lower findings in audits... whether Indian DGCA and Indian government realize that, we'll see as time goes by...

Quoting ytz (Reply 108):
Only in India does a minister keep his portfolio after screwing up this badly.

India ain't the only one... I don't need to look beyond my borders to see the other example   
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
roseflyer
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:26 pm

I don't always love the FAA but they are very clear and open about ICAO standards when doing audits. All the checklists are online.

http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/iasa/checklists/

With India, politics play a significant factor. However a checklist used around the world in the same way seems like a rather fair assessment.


I think that is a personal opinion. The correct answer is that India was downgraded for failing to comply with documented ICAO standards. The FAA did not release what the specific deficiencies are. However claiming that failure to comply with a checklist is not FAA bias regardless of how many posts you make reiterating an opinion.

[Edited 2014-02-01 10:51:28 by SA7700]
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LAXintl
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:40 pm

United Airlines ending Jet Airways codeshares. Future passenger bookings being cancelled.

United Pares Jet Airways Ties as India Safety Rating Cut
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...es-as-india-safety-rating-cut.html

Let see how far this goes.

For example in the case of Indonesia, Garuda was on blacklist for travel agency organizations both in US and Europe and would receive zero bookings from members.
Also obviously being Cat-II many corporate travel policies wont allow employee travel on airlines of such nations.

Could be good news for foreign airlines serving India as folks shy away further from Indian carriers.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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lightsaber
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:42 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 77):
Keep in mind India got Cat-1 only in 1997. No big deal if it is lost after couple of decade

Code shares will be the big impact. In 1997, they didn't matter. In 2014, they do:

United suspends code-sharing pact with Jet after FAA downgrade
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...aa-downgrade-idUSL3N0L537S20140201

from the same link: FAA rules bar US carriers from code-sharing arrangements with airlines from countries that have been downgraded.

Little point in AI in *A until US code shares are allowed again.

9W's gateway to the USA via AUH is 'foiled' until CAT 1 is restored:
http://upgrd.com/aerospace/india-dow...ory-2-safety-rating-by-us-faa.html

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 36):
There may a tussle between India and FAA.

The FAA never backs down. It is there culture to set guidelines and expect them to be met. Like it or not, that was the deal. While it looks like 29 of the 31 targets were met, the issue of most concern wasn't even addressed until this week!

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 36):
BTW, congratulations, your wish came true about AI cancelling remaining 13 birds. I argued it will never happen, but I was wrong.

Why do you make it sound like I wished it? I simply pointed out the economics. This is cash flow management, not a desire on my part. I'd rather AI thrive, but that would require it actually being run for a profit. Not yet cancelled, but looking likely.

http://www.business-standard.com/art...eamliner-audit-114012901060_1.html

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 74):
working pretty slowly

Exactly. The FAA budgeted X months to resolve the issue and when not done timely... CAT 2.

Quoting ojas (Reply 101):
no one code shares on AI services to the USA and neither do they have too much interested in beyond NYC/ORD market. AI is happy with the Indian domestic feed they get to these flights.

What? Why are they trowing away so much money? So all the noise for *A was just that... noise.
So much for the anticipated 5% to 8% boost in revenue...

And shift to the ME3 as they will be able to code share. QR and EY will be handed money on a plate since they will and can code sare.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 106):
No wonder AI is losing a fortune.

Understatement.

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 114):
As mentioned ad nauseam, India had five years to comply. FIVE YEARS. That is far more than a reasonable courtesy to allow them time to get their house in order, but it's clear that they dragged their feet...much more than can be blamed on simple government bureaucracy. The FAA had to draw its line somewhere, even if India promised it was trying really, really hard.

Worth repeating.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 125):
I don't always love the FAA but they are very clear and open about ICAO standards when doing audits. All the checklists are online.

Thank you for the link. The standards were clear and the timeline fair.

Lightsaber
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dtw2hyd
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:44 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 125):
I think that is a personal opinion. The correct answer is that India was downgraded for failing to comply with documented ICAO standards. The FAA did not release what the specific deficiencies are. However claiming that failure to comply with a checklist is not FAA bias regardless of how many posts you make reiterating an opinion.

Just for clarify India cleared ICAO audit.

Please check ICAO ratings for India and compare to any country. India beats several countries including USA and China in certain ratings. India is the only country has latest audit 2013. Most other countries are audited in 2006/7.

http://www.icao.int/safety/Pages/USOAP-Results.aspx

In aviation legislation US lags behind India.
China lags behind in 4 categories.
 
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mercure1
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:00 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 89):
These 75 positions are like USPS employee with President's salary.

I would hardly call flight inspectors being postal worker. Quite a downgrading comment.

Matter of fact these are senior pilots and yes you might need to pay them €250,000 for them to work for the government.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 89):
Other issue is B787 flight safety inspectors having conflict of interest. Because AI is the only carrier with B787, DGCA deputed pilots from AI as FSIs. FAA says that is a conflict of interest, but doesn't help to resolve. One option was to hire from Boeing, now may be from ANA/JAL.

Yes that is an absolute conflict of interest.

Can anyone imagine a former AI pilot having a regulatory role over the company he just worked for last week.

In Europe one cannot have any dealing with your former employer for atleast 7 years, and in some cases depending on your oversight you cannot have dealing with them for life.

Safety is no place for personal interest, friendships, or even revenge to be involved in.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 112):
ndia probably has enough clout with in UN to alter ICAO charter to upgrade ICAO audit standards and do away with peer audits.

India cant do anything with ICAO, that is the problem as no one can do anything with ICAO.

ICAO like the rest of the UN rules by unanimous consent, so unless everyone agrees to something from Australia to Zimbabwe nothing gets done.

Matter of fact much of the UN guidelines are so thin, or absolute minimum standards they are a joke and leaves much to be desired in areas of safety.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 119):
Only ICAO will be able audit any CAA in the world and every one have to abide by the results. Just like IAEA. Then audits are fair.

Again, you fail to understand what ICAO place is.

ICAO provides the absolute MINIMUM standards. These go back to Cold War days and were basically what Europe-US-Soviet Union could agree on at the time.

Each member thankfully may apply their own higher standards.

If we were left to only govern by UN dictates we likely would not have any forest left, our oceans would be higher, and the world be a much worse place to live.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 126):
For example in the case of Indonesia, Garuda was on blacklist for travel agency organizations both in US and Europe and would receive zero bookings from members.
Also obviously being Cat-II many corporate travel policies wont allow employee travel on airlines of such nations.

Could be good news for foreign airlines serving India as folks shy away further from Indian carriers.

Yes Garuda was openly avoided. I even recall travel agents having posted signs saying they wont book on GA for clients with information about Indonesian

This downgrade will certainly be felt by Indian carriers as many groups and nations do follow what the US does.
mercure f-wtcc
 
mandala499
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:09 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 128):
Just for clarify India cleared ICAO audit.

Well... let's see... Indonesia seems to be doing about the same as India in terms of USOAP... Yet, we're still banned by EU and still got the FAA Category II country rating.
So let's see, do we complain about politics causing FAA to slap the downgrade on us? No... (We did rant about the EU ban though    )... we still ordered hundreds of Boeings after the downgrade... (and lots of Airbuses after the EU banned us)...

Now, just because ICAO USOAP was 'cleared' doesn't mean it's safe. If you can get hold of an FAA audit report, you'll know exactly what I mean. Unfortunately, it's limited circulation only... it's one heck of an eye opener... and they're very open about their findings to the audited party who receives the report.
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lightsaber
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:21 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 126):
Also obviously being Cat-II many corporate travel policies wont allow employee travel on airlines of such nations.

Could be good news for foreign airlines serving India as folks shy away further from Indian carriers.

Serious question, does it impact European travelers since only the FAA has downgraded? Many countries follow either the FAA or EASA guidance. So this should only impact travelers from nations where they follow FAA guidance. But... do some take the worst or both?

I'm simply trying to gauge the magnitude of the impact. I know my life insurance is void if I fly on a Cat II, so I probably won't just for my children's sake 'just in case.'

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 128):
Just for clarify India cleared ICAO audit.

But raised safety concerns and the ICAO audit was criticized for being very narrow in scope.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngogl...nt-questions-remain-for-faa-audit/

Lightsaber

Late edit:
ps, I found a link from the WSJ "FAA Downgrades India's safety ranking" that had interesting tidbits (WSJ links never work):

By emphasizing India's persistent shortage of independent and adequately trained inspectors, air-safety experts said, the FAA also appears to be sending a warning to expanding aviation industries elsewhere in Asia or the Middle East that face regulatory staffing problems.

It looks to be a chronic problem the FAA is trying to fix.
The U.S. agency previously prodded Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and other countries to fix similar shortcomings without taking formal action or singling them out for downgrades.

My mistake, this isn't a problem identified 5 years ago:
For more than a decade, questions also have been raised about the level of pilot training and discipline at various Indian airlines, as well as strict adherence to scheduling rules intended to reduce the hazards of cockpit fatigue.

For the record, I think India will resolve the issues. But it sounds like they have avoided fixing some issues identified a decade ago and its just time to get everything in order.

Has anyone found an analysis on how this impacts the value of AI in *A? Obviously with UA dis-allowed to code share, that reduces the value of *A for AI. But does it have any other impacts?

Lightsaber

[Edited 2014-02-01 09:28:29]
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SA7700
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:25 pm

What I find hard to understand is how "third-world African carriers" like SA, ET and KQ and their respective countries of origin can maintain the necessary safety requirements, but not booming India. (Yes, I was born in Africa and I have been living here for my entire life).

As soon as they got slapped on the wrist, they want to retaliate in a childish manner. Just get your aviation house in order India. It is as easy as that.   


Regards,

SA7700

[Edited 2014-02-01 11:26:26]
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:28 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 129):
India cant do anything with ICAO, that is the problem as no one can do anything with ICAO.

ICAO like the rest of the UN rules by unanimous consent, so unless everyone agrees to something from Australia to Zimbabwe nothing gets done.

Matter of fact much of the UN guidelines are so thin, or absolute minimum standards they are a joke and leaves much to be desired in areas of safety.
Quoting mercure1 (Reply 129):
Again, you fail to understand what ICAO place is.

ICAO provides the absolute MINIMUM standards. These go back to Cold War days and were basically what Europe-US-Soviet Union could agree on at the time.

Each member thankfully may apply their own higher standards.

If we were left to only govern by UN dictates we likely would not have any forest left, our oceans would be higher, and the world be a much worse place to live.

Every one understands current ICAO has lower audit standards than say JCAB,FAA and EASA.

ICAO trying to improve their audit standards and most CAAs support that effort, because a higher standard ICAO will be better and fair to most countries. If majority of UN members supports in General Assembly it will go through. It is not UNSC for one country to veto.

This was a major agenda item at ICAO conference in Montreal. FAA doesn't like a bit of it.

Again when an UN Agency like IAEA is good enough for entire world, a better ICAO should be good enough.

There are two main reasons India is not able to regulate properly.
1) Rapid growth in aviation traffic. This is something India has to address and there is no way out.
2) Purchase of B787s. This is an unnecessary headache. India didn't cause B787 battery problems, India didn't fix B787 battery(Boeing did), yet India gets written up on that issue by Japan and US. Same with flight safety inspectors. That is something Boeing/FAA should have warned before delivering planes.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:48 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 133):
ICAO trying to improve their audit standards

They've been trying since 1942.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 133):
FAA doesn't like a bit of it.

I think the FAA is just skeptical. ICAO is notoriously slow to adapt and we're entering an era of more software controlled aircraft which will require the auditing agencies to adapt faster.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 133):
There are two main reasons India is not able to regulate properly.

The whys do not matter. India must get a plan in order and keep to schedule. Although I do find it interesting that the two most rapidly expanding aviation markets (India and Indonesia) are both Cat 2. Yet somehow the UAE and its incredibly fast market was able to keep Cat 1 despite also failing an initial audit (admittedly easier due to the far fewer airports).

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 133):
That is something Boeing/FAA should have warned before delivering planes.

And yet other nations were able to comply in a timely manner. No doubt the 787 issues added expenses.    The issues with India and the 787 were timeliness. The fraction of all electric aircraft being developed is growing and the Indian aviation authorities need to be ready.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 133):
a better ICAO should be good enough.

I respectfully disagree. The structure of ICAO makes it very unlikely to ever be a watchdog with any 'teeth.'

The goal should be safety, not debating how to lower the standards to the point of passing. While I'd like to see better ICAO standards, they're really far behind in too many areas to be taken seriously today. e.g., cargo chemical compatibility. I much prefer the FAAs standards even though it often means pallets I have shipped have those huge stickers "Not to be transported on passenger aircraft" affixed to them. (I rather like the image of the guy holding out his hand stopping the pallet from being loaded into a lower cargo hold...) Safe stuff, unless put next to a similar pallet of the chemical it would react with.

ICAO would need to set the pace instead of lagging the FAA by as much as 20 years... e.g., when will ICAO stop holding conferences on pilot fatigue management and instead put out rules with teeth? While I disagree with aspects of the new FAA pilot fatigue guidelines, at least they have them with rules to be followed. ICAO is still back at 'shared responsibility' trying to to irk member airlines that want productivity while trying to placate safety groups who see the issues.

Let's put it this way, I wouldn't fly on an airline that only followed the ICAO pilot fatigue guidelines. Thankfully, most airlines adopt the UK, EASA, or FAA guidelines. Sadly, this is one area the India aviation authorities must correct. I wouldn't be surprised if it was one of the 2 or the 31 areas not addressed (the other was inspectors). Does anyone have a list of the 31 areas of concern? Which were addressed? Which weren't (officially, not by our speculation)?

Lightsaber
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Aither
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:58 pm

Just a few days after India lifted the ban on A380 flights...

Coincidence ?
Never trust the obvious
 
trex8
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:15 pm

Quoting Aither (Reply 135):
Just a few days after India lifted the ban on A380 flights...

Coincidence ?

Someone n Delhi got paid off so the ME3 can suck up all those passengers!   
 
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lightsaber
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:15 pm

Quoting Aither (Reply 135):

Just a few days after India lifted the ban on A380 flights...

Coincidence ?

Ugh... why are you asking. The FAA audit was planned well before the A380 decision. The FAA wouldn't have thought twice about the A380. Not when there is so much to do before it actually happens.

Lightsaber
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dtw2hyd
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:19 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 134):
I respectfully disagree. The structure of ICAO makes it very unlikely to ever be a watchdog with any 'teeth.'

You are repeating old story. Idea is to pick best common standards for ICAO audit. JCAB says they are superior to FAA. Singapore and Australia seem to have scored higher than USA in current audit. Why USA is not 100% complaint even under current(lower) ICAO audits.


Quoting Aither (Reply 135):
Just a few days after India lifted the ban on A380 flights...

Coincidence ?

May be to show Airbus is preferred going forward!!!

[Edited 2014-02-01 10:40:00 by SA7700]
 
ytz
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:51 pm

Ha ha ha! Somebody really thinks the US can be forced to accept an ICAO audit. That's funny. International law does not allow that kind of imposition on any country. If they accept ICAO audits, it's voluntary. American legislation holds the FAA responsible for the safety of the American public. So even once there are standardised ICAO audits, the FAA can still insist on its own. Now other countries can refuse and maybe the impact will be mitigated if a country passes ICAO and refuses FAA audit. But I doubt it.

The FAA will still be auditing airlines and regulators of any country with an airline wanting to fly to the USA. I'll bet money on that.
 
Planesmart
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:02 pm

International and national aviation safety standards should be, and generally are, above politics, just like those applying to the maritime industry. Thats not to say in the past, that it was always so.

As the Indian trade reaction was forseeable, it in fact highlights US politics was not a factor (quite the opposite).

The downgrade will affect Indian aviation funding and insurance costs, as risk averse syndicates re-evaluate.

As the FAA would have been in dialogue the entire time with it's Indian counterparts, the downgrade would not have come as a surprise. A380 decision was almost certainly linked, though AI and EU negotiators are claiming all the credit.
 
VTORD
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:41 pm

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 131):
As soon as they got slapped on the wrist, they want to retaliate in a childish manner. Just get your aviation house in order India. It is as easy as that.

India has not yet "retaliated". The MoCA has said he was disappointed with the downgrade but neither the GoI or any Indian Airline has given a reaction except the MoCA's 2 line statement. One poster said something about expecting tit-for-tat from India and the whole thread erupted. Can we atleast give India the chance to officially make a retaliatory move before we pan them for doing so?

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 133):
Yet somehow the UAE and its incredibly fast market was able to keep Cat 1 despite also failing an initial audit

I may be totally off the mark here but gulf nations can potentially steal trained/skilled labor for this sort of job functions. Lots of incentives financially for skilled personnel from sub-continent or other part of Asia to work there. This could create a shortage in places like India. I am not saying this is the reason DGCA slacked off (no excuse for that) but a scenario nevertheless.....
 
ElPistolero
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:49 pm

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 131):
As soon as they got slapped on the wrist, they want to retaliate in a childish manner. Just get your aviation house in order India. It is as easy as that.

A poster wants them to retaliate. They haven't actually retaliated. There's a very low likelihood of this making its way from the Minister of Civil Aviation's desk to the Minister of External Affairs, let alone the Prime Minister.

Its an embarrassment involving a well-established procedure that most countries (including India) respect, quite unlike the other situation where India retaliated, which involved gray areas, overzealousness, obstinacy and stupidity in equal measure on both sides. The reaction on that isn't going to color the reaction to this. If it does come to the PM, I'll wager good money he'll direct his ire at the Minister in charge, not the US.

Personally think India's just about been making the passing grade for a while now. It doesn't seem to want to catch up with the rest of the world.
 
Rishul93
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:41 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 130):
For the record, I think India will resolve the issues. But it sounds like they have avoided fixing some issues identified a decade ago and its just time to get everything in order.

Has anyone found an analysis on how this impacts the value of AI in *A? Obviously with UA dis-allowed to code share, that reduces the value of *A for AI. But does it have any other impacts?

Lightsaber

I think everybody is expecting this to get resolved by March or so, which won't really have an impact of AI-*A or 9Ws planned JFK/ORD services, frankly, from either side, the official responses have been positive, can't comment on what back channel communications have taken place.

The problem, IMO, is that India, will once again do the bare minimum required to get back and stay at that front, till the next time they're whipped and warned again to change.

WIth all due respect, countries like Bangladesh and Ghana have a very tiny aviation market, India is much much bigger.
 
tyler81190
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:14 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 94):
Quoting bharathkv (Reply 88):
Indians are capable and are progressing.

Keep believing that being downgraded is progression.

See above.

well, they ARE progressing... just in the WRONG direction.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 96):
ndia may be the world's largest democracy, but the government bodies work in a pretty authoritarian manner. While the DGCA should have been busy trying to pass the FAA audit, they were instead spending time issuing directives to the Indian privately-owned LCCs to provide "VIP service" for all Indian MPs. I think that says it all.

Ahh, government at it's finest... I expected nothing else out of the Indian government...

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 109):
How does that make you anti-indian?  

Well, I can't really explain on a public forum without sounding horribly awful, so you should just read the news about the Rapes and molestations in India, and a famous "bollywood" star who has spoken out against it, and was booed off stage for bringing light to it.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 125):
For example in the case of Indonesia, Garuda was on blacklist for travel agency organizations both in US and Europe and would receive zero bookings from members.
Also obviously being Cat-II many corporate travel policies wont allow employee travel on airlines of such nations.

Garuda is really a turn around story (kind of). They have a really high quality product now for long haul, and have made large changes. I hope AI can do the same, but only if the G.O.I. GETS OUT OF THEIR BUSINESS.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:09 am

Quoting VTORD (Reply 140):
I may be totally off the mark here but gulf nations can potentially steal trained/skilled labor for this sort of job functions. Lots of incentives financially for skilled personnel from sub-continent or other part of Asia to work there. This could create a shortage in places like India. I am not saying this is the reason DGCA slacked off (no excuse for that) but a scenario nevertheless.....

Interesting scenario... Plausible. I'm not saying that is what happened, but possible. In particular since the UAE has fewer airports, they could hire talent quicker to meet their needs.

Bummer for the less nimble...

Quoting Rishul93 (Reply 142):
The problem, IMO, is that India, will once again do the bare minimum required to get back and stay at that front, till the next time they're whipped and warned again to change.

Bare minimum=meeting standards. I'm ok with that. I agree the cycle will repeat likely too. But everything will be safer for India having met standards for at least a bit.

Lightsaber
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SA7700
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sun Feb 02, 2014 7:14 am

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 131):
As soon as they got slapped on the wrist, they want to retaliate in a childish manner.
Quoting VTORD (Reply 140):
India has not yet "retaliated".
Quoting VTORD (Reply 140):
Can we atleast give India the chance to officially make a retaliatory move before we pan them for doing so?
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 141):
They haven't actually retaliated.

My bad - apologies. Maybe I should have stated "apparently".


Thanks and regards,

SA7700
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
tyler81190
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:30 am

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 145):
Quoting SA7700 (Reply 131):
As soon as they got slapped on the wrist, they want to retaliate in a childish manner.
Quoting VTORD (Reply 140):
India has not yet "retaliated".
Quoting VTORD (Reply 140):
Can we atleast give India the chance to officially make a retaliatory move before we pan them for doing so?
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 141):
They haven't actually retaliated.

My bad - apologies. Maybe I should have stated "apparently".


Thanks and regards,

SA7700

I don't think you need to apologize, we all know they will have a temper tantrum like a child sooner or later. You just jumped the gun before it happened.  
 
mandala499
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:35 am

Quoting ytz (Reply 138):
The FAA will still be auditing airlines and regulators of any country with an airline wanting to fly to the USA. I'll bet money on that.

No need to bet money on that... the fact is they do. The good news is that the FAA is very open about its audit findings to the auditee... unlike the EU where EASA is very open but the EUETC who issues the ban, isn't.

Quoting Rishul93 (Reply 142):
I think everybody is expecting this to get resolved by March or so,

Gets it resolved by March, so the return to Cat I status would be 3 to 6 months after the audit deeming India "safe enough for Cat I status".

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 125):
For example in the case of Indonesia, Garuda was on blacklist for travel agency organizations both in US and Europe and would receive zero bookings from members.
Also obviously being Cat-II many corporate travel policies wont allow employee travel on airlines of such nations.
Could be good news for foreign airlines serving India as folks shy away further from Indian carriers.
Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 143):
Garuda is really a turn around story (kind of). They have a really high quality product now for long haul, and have made large changes. I hope AI can do the same, but only if the G.O.I. GETS OUT OF THEIR BUSINESS.

The case of Garuda is where the EU and US differ. The EU ban and FAA status was countrywide, but the EU provides exemptions if the airline is deemed safe enough and has adequate oversight. This is where it gets interesting. The EU ban's credibility here was under fire when it gave Batavia the ban exemption. Garuda has also received the EU ban exemption. We all say the ban wasn't political, but the exemptions were. Interestingly, the FAA audit revealed that Garuda is in non-compliance with Indonesian aviation law... it's AOC enjoys being grandfathered in from the days before we had safety regulations, and so far there are no official "statement of compliance" to the current safety regulations... Citilink's AOC application (done by Garuda) also lacked in a lot of documentation... Sorry, Garuda? Turnaround? Look beneath the surface...   
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
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atcsundevil
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:37 am

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 145):
My bad - apologies. Maybe I should have stated "apparently".

I don't feel that you need to apologize, because I think you are right to believe that a retaliatory action could be coming, and here's why: Some people may not realize that there is very recent precedent to support such an opinion that there could be retaliation in some form against the US, so the notion isn't off base...

The GoI retaliated against the US by removing US Embassy barriers during protests and attempting to place numerous restrictions on US Embassy and consular staff in the wake of the recent arrest of Devyani Khobragade and her subsequent strip search (which is the standard procedure for anyone being processed for an arrest in federal custody). She was arrested for fraudulently obtaining a work visa and for working her housekeeper beyond full-time while paying a fraction of the federally mandated minimum wage. Yes, the DOJ could have handled that with a little more care given the political implications, but India focused purely on what they felt was her unjust treatment because she is special...seemingly ignoring the fact that she violated US federal law in which diplomatic immunity does not apply under international standards, not to mention her treatment of a fellow Indian citizen.

Back to the present.. The FAA downgrades India despite the opinion that they have been working very hard to comply with their vast list of demands even though they just needed a little more time. They feel that Indian aviation is safe and that the requirements are excessive. The parallels between the two are undeniable. They are downgraded, and many Indians again feel they have again been somehow slandered by the United States without just cause. Because they retaliated in the previously but under a somewhat similar circumstance, it is logical to think that retaliation in a different form could happen as a result of the current situation.

I would hope that the GoI can handle this situation in a swift, responsible manner to put safety first. But, I'm not holding my breath. In the aforementioned arrest, it was easier to place blame elsewhere on what was deemed "barbaric treatment" than to deal with the actual problem at hand: A diplomat to the US (a lawyer, no less) committed fraud and workplace violations with willful disregard. This circumstance with India's downgrade is very much the same of playing the "blame game" to deflect from internal shortcomings, those being that the Indian Government feels unmotivated to comply with the recommendations of one of the most respected civil aviation administrations in the world.

Quoting Rishul93 (Reply 142):
The problem, IMO, is that India, will once again do the bare minimum required to get back and stay at that front, till the next time they're whipped and warned again to change.

Indian citizens shouldn't want such a lazy, uncommitted approach, right? Just because the government is too unmotivated or too inept (or whatever it may be) to effect tangible change to build the foundation for a high-quality aviation industry shouldn't mean that the people shouldn't be interested in such a change. India may have a good flight safety record now, but history tells us that inadequate oversight of a booming sector could change that quickly. I can't understand what the resistance is to wanting to provide the best oversight possible so that the industry can continue maintaining a good safety record. The bare minimum in a time of exponential growth directly translates to the festering of a poor safety culture -- then, it's just a matter of time before things get bad.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 144):
Interesting scenario... Plausible. I'm not saying that is what happened, but possible. In particular since the UAE has fewer airports, they could hire talent quicker to meet their needs.

The key difference is that countries like the UAE are more than willing to compensate these experts handsomely -- tax free, no less -- along with other perks which often come with roles of prominence, like free housing. They also pour money into the aviation sector, and in a system where money is no object, it makes their jobs far easier.

Whereas in India, they wanted to pay these guys less than half as much of what an Air Traffic Controller makes in the US each year. Experienced career pilots can easily make $200-300k or more per year depending on their background, so to settle for a sub-six figure salary in an environment apparently not too interested in promoting a top-notch safety culture would make them a little bit stupid to choose that over UAE et al. Now that India has agreed to compensate them competitively, I think their ability to find qualified inspectors will increase greatly.
 
dtw2hyd
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Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:50 pm

Quoting Rishul93 (Reply 142):
I think everybody is expecting this to get resolved by March or so

It is very unlikely India getting Cat-1 back anytime soon. Reasons have nothing to do with aviation safety. US wanted India's help with Afghanistan signing Bilateral Security Agreement(with immunity). Karzai is not signing, US thinks India is the trouble maker. So actually it is US behaving childishly by 1) Arresting Diplomat 2) Banning Ranbaxy and now 3) Downgrading India's safety rating. US tried everything it has, yet both India and Afghanistan are not budging and US forces have to leave the country.

Apologize to go off topic but have to explain the background what is going on with US-India relationship.

Now, under Cat-II, code shares are not allowed but interlining is allowed. So all code shares will be converted to interline agreements. *A is saying AI is not a problem, may be alliances have thought about this scenario and have a workaround for a Cat-II partner. There may be more ramp checks, AI/9W have to live with for foreseeable future, so does UA/DL.

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