ytz
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:10 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 194):
India released FAA IASA Audit findings. I guess now public can decide.http://www.dgca.nic.in/public_notice/PN-FAA.pdfIMO, there is no way India can hire 75 pilots (Flight Safety/Operations Inspectors) with Indian Citizenship before 3/31.India can not hire foreign pilots because FAA is mandating they have to full time (Indian Government) employees.

1) Sub-contract to an outside agency under DGCA supervision.
2) Nowhere in your own link does it say there is any requirement for the inspectors to be Indian nationals.
3) The link does not say that they must hire 75 by March. It just says there must be a long term plan with more permanent staffing to reduce turnover.

The DGCA is not bound to hire a bunch of full time inspectors themselves. They can contract out to a properly certified agency/company and simply monitor via guidelines that they have to meet.
 
ytz
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:14 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 200):
DGCA is a federal agency, so foreigners cannot be hired.

Well then, they will have to pass legislation to make exceptions. That's the beauty of these audits. They identify the problem and give you the solution. How you get from A to B is up to you. That every federal employee must be an Indian citizen is a self-imposed rule. They can either choose to amend the legislation or make exceptions. Or they can choose to spend whatever it takes to get and train appropriately qualified Indian nationals into those positions. It's their choice.
 
ytz
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:15 pm

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 199):
can we stop with the conspiracy theories please...

Curious why mods aren't calling out his unsubstantiated flamebait.
 
ytz
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:23 pm

Conspiracy theories aside, I'd like to see some guesses as to real impacts on AI, 9W and the LCCs (Indigo, SpiceJet., etc.).

Does this impact lease and insurance rates immediately? What does this do to any planned expansion? For example, how will 9W be restricted when operating via its AUH hub? Does the Cat II automatically forestall any future US expansion for 9W?

What is also incredibly curious to me is that they passed the ICAO audit and failed the FAA audit. Given that 89 countries have passed FAA audits, that tells me that there is something seriously wrong with the ICAO audit process.
 
747megatop
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:39 pm

Guys, i want to throw something out here on this forum, a different perspective and see what folks on both sides of the argument have to say.

I looked at this FAA link - http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/iasa/media/IASAWS.xlsx

The funny thing is these countries are CAT-1 countries and i find it hard to believe

Pakistan
Suriname
Uzbekistan
Fiji
Ethiopia
Guatemala
Russia
Nigeria


Especially Russia, which has been in the news quite a bit over the last 10 years that i can recall for air crashes (i am not counting terrorist related incidents in this). It is surprising to see Nigeria too on the CAT 1 list. So, this begs the question of what exactly does FAA base it's CAT-1, CAT-2 rating on. Canada, UK, France, Germany, Japan etc. being in CAT-1, absolutely no questions about that. But, since we are on this topic of India being downgraded to CAT-2, i find it hard to believe that Russia and the other countries listed above are CAT-1 when they should actually belong to CAT-2 or perhaps even lower. Thoughts? If folks are not convinced about my question of why Russia is CAT-1 then read this - http://www.airsafe.com/events/airlines/fsu.htm

[Edited 2014-02-03 14:46:22]
 
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:27 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 204):
there is something seriously wrong with the ICAO audit process.

pls read my questions posed in reply 205. There is something seriously wrong in all these audit processes. I am not sure it does anything to further aviation safety. There needs to be some set of standardized international guidelines and make everyone jump through that hoop. Giving Pakistan, Russia and Nigeria CAT-1 does not make any sense especially given that fact that Russia is notorious for air accidents. Who gives a damn about these Audits and category ratings when so many planes have crashed in Russia over the past 20 years and they have been given a CAT-1 rating?

To give an analogy, i am going off topic here....the Japanese bullet train is undoubtedly the safest in the world..having carried over 7 billion passengers in about 50 years without a fatality. As a passenger i don't really care what audits they have gone through and what their category rating is; the reality is that they have demonstrated in reality that they are the safest high speed rail system around and i would risk life and limb on their trains. So, applying that to Russia and India's case, i would say Russia should belong to category 3 or 4, who cares what audit they passed? their aviation system is unsafe. PERIOD. based on their crash statistics..bringing into question FAA's rating system.

Now back to topic, so, folks on both sides of the argument here are overlooking the fact that FAA has some explaining to do (and so does the ICAO). To further the cause of aviation safety i think these agencies need to get their audits in shape and of course needless to say DGCA needs to get it's house in order too. While definitely GOI needs to get it's house in order by fixing it's incompetent DGCA; to suggest there absolutely ZERO politics involved in this FAA downgrade is definitely not believable. The question of what % of politics is involved is anybody's guess.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:42 pm

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 207):
Giving Pakistan, Russia and Nigeria CAT-1 does not make any sense especially given that fact that Russia is notorious for air accidents.

You are missing the point. This is not about accident statistics.

What Russia has (and India not) is a developed regulatory regime for the oversight of its aviation sector.

India is missing portions of the required regulations, policies, and the appropriate staff to manage such. In otherwords, what India is being called out on is failing to have the basic foundation in place.
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747megatop
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:03 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 208):
You are missing the point. This is not about accident statistics.

I think you missed the point about about my post then. And in fact i am going to go out on a limb here and say that the FAA & ICAO audits are missing the whole point of aviation safety then by doing these audits and handing out these ratings. When you say it is not about accident statistics, then what is it about? Do the flying public and the aviation industry get to frame the certificate containing these ratings and proudly display it on some wall? To me, accident statistics are a direct correlation of the health of the aviation safety in a given country and going by those statistics Russian aviation is unsafe regardless of whatever oversight and documentation they have. If you are telling me it is not about accident statistics then these audits are just an eyewash   given which regardless of the aviation oversight, regulation, documentation etc....aviation is the same in USA,JAPAN,Nigeria,Russia,India,Europe,Mongolia etc......so why have these audits in the first place?

[Edited 2014-02-03 16:03:37]

[Edited 2014-02-03 16:06:07]
 
747megatop
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:10 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 208):
What Russia has (and India not) is a developed regulatory regime for the oversight of its aviation sector.

Sorry, disagree on this. If Russia had a developed regulatory regime then we would not have seen so many accidents in the past 20 years. Their aviation establishment would have been more functional and safer if they did have a working & functional developed regime. They may have a developed and regulatory regime on paper but certainly not in reality.
 
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:24 am

You can question the effectiveness of Russian governmental bodies, but as a nation and particularly in the aviation sector they have a very deep body of governance.

Call it bureaucracy, but Russia certainly has oversight regime and what is require to satisfactorily check off the boxes to meet international aviation standards. After all which Russia was a founder and very active participant in ICAO body to this day and virtually its entire civil aviation sector is built around ICAO guidance.

But I don't know why the point to bring up other nations, as if to deflect India's failure somehow. This thread is about India, and its short comings, not Nigeria, Mongolia or other nation. Feel free to start separate threads about those nations.
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:36 am

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 209):

Is it safer to drive a truck in Montana, Kentucky, or New Hampshire? It really does not matter, but each state must adopt and apply the same basic federal transportation rules and regulations for their trucking sector.

Aviation is rather similar. ICAO guidance is the baseline which all member nations must meet. Beyond that nations are free to add on their own layers as they see fit and hence you have differing regulations in US, Europe, Japan, Australia etc.

Russia has successfully (and to my knowledge always) been compliant with ICAO guidance. As just mentioned above many of the ICAO guidance actually were developed with lots of Russian input during the Cold War era.

We can argue about the ICAO guidance - my personal view is that they are very thin and leave tons of room for improvement but alas that is all the UN body has been able to come up with in unanimity.


So circling back to India, as this has nothing to do with Russia, failing to meet the elemental ICAO guidance is rather damming of ones aviation sector regulatory regime imo.
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:13 am

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 28):
I don't have any reason to visit India and don't ever plan to go. But if I did, I know AI would be my last choice. There are several world airlines I avoid, for various reasons, and safety is number one. AI should be banned from US airports until they clean up their act. NO FLY

I would love to know you view on airlines that are in bankruptcy and outsource a whole bunch of their jobs ? Please go on!
 
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:32 am

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 211):
But I don't know why the point to bring up other nations, as if to deflect India's failure somehow. This thread is about India, and its short comings, not Nigeria, Mongolia or other nation. Feel free to start separate threads about those nations.

The point is not to deflect failure of India. If you have read my posts i have stated in clear terms that India needs to fix the problems and get it's house in order. The point about my posts is also about what CAT-1 or CAT-2 means and i am just raising questions in the context of "politics" some folks have debated about here. I am also raising questions about what CAT-1 or CAT-2 means in terms of aviation safety since others have talked about aviation safety in this very thread as quoted below   and in doing so i am raising questions about the auditing process and how it really helps.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
Here is the FAA press release:

Revised Safety Rating for India
http://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId=15674

=

Quoting Revelation (Reply 5):
It'd be nice if safety was the name of the game, no?

  

Indians can be petty if they wish, but their priority should indeed be on safety, and figuring out how to rectify the identified deficiencies allowing them to meet the minimum international safety standards and practices for the benefit of their own citizens and own aviation sector.

And, last but not the least, you mention that this thread is not about Nigeria, Russia or about any other country; then why didn't i see any protests from about reply 40 since going by your statement this thread is not about Nigeria either.

Quoting SQ325 (Reply 40):
I think most intl. Pilots will second that India ist one the most challenging countries to fly to or through! I always feel like I am in Nigeria.

It seems like they are lacking everything, infrastructure, equipment, training and discipline and they have way to much traffic!

So I am not really surprised! But Rome wasn' t build on one day either  

Folks, obviously most folks here belong to the 1st 2 camps -

1) India screwed up. Needs to fix their issues (i agree 100% on this that India has to fix their issues). FAA is golden, their audit is unquestionable and folks don't see any issues there.
2) Nothing wrong with India (all politics by FAA). (I certainly don't belong to this camp.)
3) There is an issue with the audit process (both the current FAA and the previous ICAO audit) and what these categories mean and how it translates to aviation safety given the fact that Russia, Nigeria, Pakistan and other countries i have listed are categorized as CAT-1. To the general flying public and the general aviation inustry CAT-1,CAT-2 etc means nothing and are all the same. Not sure how many belong to this camp but i belong to this camp and stand by my view that FAA audits and their categories eventually translate to how safe a country's aviation establishment is.

[Edited 2014-02-03 18:29:13]
 
747megatop
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:01 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 212):
Is it safer to drive a truck in Montana, Kentucky, or New Hampshire? It really does not matter, but each state must adopt and apply the same basic federal transportation rules and regulations for their trucking sector.

Equally safe as driving in California i guess barring the weather. But, going farther than that, certainly not as safe as driving on a German autobahn (comparing with US highways). The regulations there in Germany are tougher (use left lane for passing only for example and this is strictly enforced) and it is much tougher to get a license for example.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 212):
Russia has successfully (and to my knowledge always) been compliant with ICAO guidance. As just mentioned above many of the ICAO guidance actually were developed with lots of Russian input during the Cold War era.

Sir, does it really matter that they passed ICAO and all other audits? It is of academic value. Did they circumvent the process somehow with underhand dealings or political pressure to earn their credits? If they indeed passed on their own merit and indeed have the high standards of oversight then their aviation establishment should be stellar.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 212):
So circling back to India, as this has nothing to do with Russia, failing to meet the elemental ICAO guidance is rather damming of ones aviation sector regulatory regime imo.

Who disagrees that India has to fix their issues? Other than of course one member on this thread? And why do you say though this has nothing to do with Russia? It has everything to do with this audit process that put Russia, India, Pakistan, Nigeria all of them in CAT-1 which tells me that all these countries have checks and balances along with the regulatory frameworks that Japan,Germany,UK and US have which is BS.



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 212):
ICAO guidance is the baseline which all member nations must meet. Beyond that nations are free to add on their own layers as they see fit and hence you have differing regulations in US, Europe, Japan, Australia etc.

I know that and understand that. There was a similar thread about DGCA vs Japan where this was mentioned.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 208):
You are missing the point. This is not about accident statistics.

Really? In reply 7 you talk about safety and let me repeat your own words here - "but their priority should indeed be on safety". So, to the average man (you and me included) safety = lesser accidents (elementary my dear Watson as Sherlock Holmes would say   ).

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
Here is the FAA press release:

Revised Safety Rating for India
http://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId=15674

=

Quoting Revelation (Reply 5):
It'd be nice if safety was the name of the game, no?

  

Indians can be petty if they wish, but their priority should indeed be on safety, and figuring out how to rectify the identified deficiencies allowing them to meet the minimum international safety standards and practices for the benefit of their own citizens and own aviation sector.


[Edited 2014-02-03 18:30:06]
 
747megatop
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:22 am

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 28):
But if I did, I know AI would be my last choice. There are several world airlines I avoid, for various reasons, and safety is number one. AI should be banned from US airports until they clean up their act.

First off, you can be at ease since AI (or for that matter 9W) will most probably (99%) anyways not fly to where you or me would want to go because they can't get their route network right for various reasons. An american carrier like UA/AA/DL will also most likely not fly to where you or me might want to go to (you will most proably go till their hub and beyond that it will be on their partner airline if you are not flying on one of their few US-India non stops).

Secondly, whether US bans Indian carriers or India bans US carriers it does not matter because the airlines on both ends don't really fly to that many points and haven't captured any significant market share; so the consumer is really not affected. Between EK,QR,EY,LH,BA,AF,CX and SQ; the India-US market is covered. Add in another airline like TK once they add more stations on both ends, it is pretty much a done deal and these airlines will only profit with all the bans that India and US can throw at each other.

Thirdly, If you are worried about safety you are better off taking LH,BA,SQ,EK,JAL or NH for your international flights. The legacy carriers that we have are certainly not shining examples of safety, i guess a simple research of accident statistics will put things in perspective and will be self explanatory.

[Edited 2014-02-03 18:24:42]

[Edited 2014-02-03 18:31:50]
 
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lightsaber
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:37 am

Quoting ytz (Reply 188):
Exactly the point I made earlier. At this point cancelling 787 orders only hurts AI.

Exactly. You have it right. I will be amused if anything comes of this.

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 206):
Every time you reply to one of his blatant conspiracy theories, we get 5 more replies.

Stopped. Its too far off topic trying to split too many hairs.

  

It is amusing how India is always in the right.  

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usdcaguy
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:56 am

I question if the US government is trying to support the ME3 carriers by downgrading India. By making it difficult for AI to expand, traffic is more likely to flow over the Gulf. Combined with the CBP facility at AUH, I'm worried some crafty lobbyists representing EY/EK/QR have been at play in Washington. Things aren't always what they seem.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:08 am

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 213):
Equally safe as driving in California i guess barring the weather.

But its not equal safety.

Every US state must adopt the same Federal guidelines, but safety (accident rates) differ from state to state wildly.
For example states like Montana and Louisiana have almost twice the fatality rates of the safest states per mile driven.

Just like ICAO - same rules can be adopted in a 100 nations, the accident rates can and will vary wildly.

There is much more behind the scenes to accidents than just regulations. There is outside forces like weather, there are cultural issues, there are financial issues etc.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 213):
Sir, does it really matter that they passed ICAO and all other audits?

It matter absolutely.

I'd jump in a licensed cab in NYC before I would a gypsy cab. Atleast one is certified and abides by some basic standards.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 213):
Really? In reply 7 you talk about safety and let me repeat your own words here - "but their priority should indeed be on safety". So, to the average man (you and me included) safety = lesser accidents

Having a passing regulatory regime in place (the ICAO guidance) serves as the foundation for safety.
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747megatop
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:13 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 217):
It matter absolutely.

I'd jump in a licensed cab in NYC before I would a gypsy cab. Atleast one is certified and abides by some basic standards.

The fact that Russia passed ICAO (and other Audits) doesn't matter absolutely. In your New York cab example I would take my chances with either cab company knowing the fact that passing the certification on paper does not mean anything. I would rather take the Gypsy cab company if i know that it has a better safety record in reality as measured by it's accident rate. And, if we equate the Gypsy cab company with let's say India/Russia/Nigeria in the aviation world and then put it in the same bracket as the other cab company (let's equate this to USA/Japan/Germany in the aviation world) and then tell people that both have the same rating CAT-1; it is quite valid to question the certification process.

[Edited 2014-02-03 21:13:41]
 
StuckInCA
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:14 am

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 216):
I question if the US government is trying to support the ME3 carriers by downgrading India. By making it difficult for AI to expand, traffic is more likely to flow over the Gulf. Combined with the CBP facility at AUH, I'm worried some crafty lobbyists representing EY/EK/QR have been at play in Washington. Things aren't always what they seem.

Make it stop. Please. Make it stop.

It's been discussed ad nauseum. This should not be a surprise. The FAA laid it out way ahead of time.
 
747megatop
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:16 am

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 219):
Make it stop. Please. Make it stop.

It's been discussed ad nauseum. This should not be a surprise. The FAA laid it out way ahead of time.

   utter nonsense that US is trying to help the ME3 by downgrading India.
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:20 am

Can the Mods PLEASE lock this thread. It's getting more and more painful, and the flamebite is obscene. Any other thread and it would have been moderated extensively.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 204):
Fiji

That one is easy, Australia and New Zealand basically do everything for them. Fiji's standards are pretty much identical to Aus/NZ.
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:54 am

I agree with above posts it is time to LOCK this thead. Mods, please do so.
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:55 am

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 218):

Do as you wish. Fly Indian carriers then also as audits don't matter per your comments.

Rest of aviation world however abides by established standards and regulatory guidelines. They might not be perfect, but atleast they provide basis to be followed and can provide some uniformity. Something like adherence to ICAO is better than nothing.
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:10 am

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 223):
Do as you wish. Fly Indian carriers then also as audits don't matter per your comments

of course everyone of us does as they wish. I don't mind flying them compared to carriers of countries that are less safer. But if given a choice of flying SQ,LH,BA,9W,EK though I would definitely not fly AI and again this is just going by the safety record of the carriers.
And btw, just to show how preconcieved the notion on this thread is and how one sided the argument is; it really does not matter whether the carrier is Indian or not; i would not fly into India OR overfly India in any carrier. The audit is not just about Indian carriers right? The audit covers the entire spectrum of aviation operations in India - their airports, their ATC procedures, the oversight of the maintenance, etc. etc. so I think you should get that straight.

Folks are just arguing on the one track that India has not met ICAO guidlines and FAA so they are at fault and have to fix their issues (which i agree 100%); but, hey, it is ridiculous to be giving CAT-1 to the other countries that i mentioned. At least Fiji has been clarified by someone as beig taken care of by Australia/NZ; but it still leaves the other countries...and folks keep going on and on about how Russia has passed ICAO etc.
 
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:41 am

Will EY be able to use 9W 77W aircraft to operate their EY 103/100 flights AUH-JFK (2nd daily)?
 
RickNRoll
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:41 am

Quoting hohd (Reply 48):
India seems to be in the habit for waiting till the last minute.

Till after the last minute, I think. Indian nationals can be hard working and intelligent, I have worked with plenty. As a society there is a lot about it that is dysfunctional. Hopefully the new anti-corruption drive will get some real change happening.
 
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Revelation
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:15 pm

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 226):

Till after the last minute, I think. Indian nationals can be hard working and intelligent, I have worked with plenty. As a society there is a lot about it that is dysfunctional.

This thread gives me a good insight as to why many of the best and brightest chose to leave.

As in reply 5:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 5):
Quote:

The minister said 95 percent of issues raised by the FAA have been resolved, while the remainder were expected to be resolved by March

So it seems that the bulk of the concerns were valid and all are in the process of being addressed to the minister's satisfaction.

A simple matter, largely on its way to resolution, has been blown all out of proportions with so many unnecessary complications.

India has had 70 years to get over its post colonial paranoia. I'm wondering if it ever will.
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dtw2hyd
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:49 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 227):
A simple matter, largely on its way to resolution, has been blown all out of proportions with so many unnecessary complications.

It is a miscalculation on India's part. DGCA is thinking they are very close to compliance(95%) without understanding the conditions of audit. May be naive.

Just take one writeup on FSI/FOI positions
1) For every 10 aircraft they need one FSI. There are ~600-700 CA and ~400 GA, Helicopters-unknown.
2) FSIs for every aircraft type they have according to condition 1.
3) FSIs have to be full time federal employees (not contractors), i.e., Indian citizen pilots with 1500+ hours
4) FSIs have to be trained on every aircraft type(including GA/Helicopters) registered in the country

I don't see anyway DGCA achieving this by 3/31(date DGCA claiming they will be complaint)

Now, hiring 75 federal employees in a rush is a recipe for long term failure. There was a suggestion to rehire retirees, but federal permanent positions have a age limit for hiring. They cannot be fired.

It is very interesting how a fringe issue can downgrade entire country's aviation rating.
- AI has three 747s sitting around just to transport national leaders, DGCA not having a FSI is non-compliance.
- If a Billionaire buys G650 and DGCA registers without training one of their FSIs on G650 it is non-complaint.
- Any Indian can buy a GA kit plane, and DGCA registers it is non-complaint.

DGCA literally had no control on GA, they registered every possible aircraft type billionaires and charter operators purchased.

DGCA has to approach this issue differently. First they should de-register all the type they don't have FSIs. They should not allow any new registration without have sufficient FSIs for that type.

It would be better if they understand the extent of the task at hand, and do it properly. Just hiring 75 permanent employees in a rush and train them by 3/31 just to realize they are still not complaint. The way they are approaching come 3/31 will be a hard awakening with millions wasted.

[Edited 2014-02-04 05:45:56]
 
hohd
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:13 pm

The only question I have is when is the earliest that India can get back Cat I. Three months, 1 year or more. The longer this drags on, the worse it gets for Jet and it could also affect AI, especially being a future member of Star Alliance.

Also what happens to Jet's code shares on UA in domestic USA ? According to FAA guidelines, existing code shares can remain, only new ones cannot be approved. So it would mean that Jet can keep its code shares on UA and other airlines.
 
BestWestern
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:18 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 194):
ndia released FAA IASA Audit findings

Amazing how many things got 'done' in January.

Quoting hohd (Reply 229):
According to FAA guidelines, existing code shares can remain, only new ones cannot be approved. So it would mean that Jet can keep its code shares on UA and other airlines.

UA codeshares were already dropped.

http://www.business-standard.com/art...ct-jet-airways-114020200443_1.html
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dtw2hyd
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:36 pm

Quoting hohd (Reply 229):
The only question I have is when is the earliest that India can get back Cat I. Three months, 1 year or more.

I would say two years. Being complaint is not a one time achievement, it is a ongoing process. They have to keep up with number/type of CA/GA aircraft.

Quoting hohd (Reply 229):
The longer this drags on, the worse it gets for Jet and it could also affect AI, especially being a future member of Star Alliance.

It is not going to impact AI membership into *A. It impacts revenue for not being able to code share. If EU, Japan and Singapore also imposes ban *A membership may be useless, different topic.

Quoting hohd (Reply 229):
Also what happens to Jet's code shares on UA in domestic USA ? According to FAA guidelines, existing code shares can remain, only new ones cannot be approved. So it would mean that Jet can keep its code shares on UA and other airlines.

9W/UA code shares are already dropped. Probably all existing tickets are re-booked using interline agreement. Mainly impacts frequently flyer miles.
 
ytz
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:11 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 228):
- If a Billionaire buys G650 and DGCA registers without training one of their FSIs on G650 it is non-complaint.
- Any Indian can buy a GA kit plane, and DGCA registers it is non-complaint

Simple. Don't register the aircraft in India. Force them to register outside India with a competent authority.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 228):
- AI has three 747s sitting around just to transport national leaders, DGCA not having a FSI is non-compliance.

Many of us had argued that like every major country, the IAF should be handling VVIP transport. They can easily transfer the aircraft to the IAF and not have another burden on the DGCA.

This downgrade is finally going to compel some reasonable and rational thinking in Indian aviation. Perhaps, that's why some find it so hard to accept.
 
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atcsundevil
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:56 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 231):
It is not going to impact AI membership into *A. It impacts revenue for not being able to code share. If EU, Japan and Singapore also imposes ban *A membership may be useless, different topic.

I disagree. I think it could greatly impact their potential bid. For one thing, Star Alliance is very UA-centric, and given that UA wouldn't benefit anything with them in the alliance, there'd be further resistance beyond what already previously existed. Additionally, if EASA follows suit with the FAA, it means it would be of little benefit to LH (the difference-maker in all things *A) and others, and would place a further scourge on Indian aviation among the public and among fliers.

If HVFs are prevented from taking advantage of the addition to the alliance, then it's reasonably pointless to admit them. If AI is prevented from code sharing and travel agencies and companies do not permit their fliers to utilize AI, then their membership is meaningless. AI would potentially become quite literally a billboard for Star, and if there's a question of safety with Indian aviation and, by association, with AI itself, then Star will avoid that notoriety at all costs because it will taint their image. If Star is protective of ANYTHING, it is absolutely their image as being the pristine alliance known for quality, excellence, and safety.

Star has been very much on the fence about AI anyway, and the only reason they re-engaged in talks is because they don't like having a big blank space over India on their in-flight maps. Jet would have been the preferred choice, but they chose not to play ball. This downgrade and particularly any reciprocal action from EASA and others will almost certainly dampen things once again.
 
ElPistolero
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:06 pm

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 233):
Star Alliance is very UA-centric

More LH-centric than UA-centric in my opinion. FRA is the real *A hub; the US cities are more or less spokes for non-Americas travel. LH screwed up by courting AI over 9W.

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 233):
If Star is protective of ANYTHING, it is absolutely their image as being the pristine alliance known for quality, excellence, and safety.

Funny how many of the airlines that actually give *A a reputation for quality and excellence are at loggerheads with the thoroughly mediocre TA++ carriers. TK isn't getting along with LH; SQ is at odds with AC and UA....

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 233):
Star has been very much on the fence about AI anyway

It was almost entirely driven by LH. I don't think the others were too keen at all.

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 233):
Jet would have been the preferred choice, but they chose not to play ball.

By their own account, they wanted to join *A but LH asked for too much. So they went to one of LH' and *A's rivals. LH thought it could dictate terms to 9W. Didn't work out.

FWIW, Indian airlines didn't become any more unsafe because of this audit, and they won't become safer when India regains CAT 1. This was a DGCA problem, not a problem with the airlines in and of themselves. I'm glad they're being scrutinized - they surely needed it. But lets not pretend that AI is any unsafer today than it was yesterday.
 
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:35 pm

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 234):
FWIW, Indian airlines didn't become any more unsafe because of this audit, and they won't become safer when India regains CAT 1. This was a DGCA problem, not a problem with the airlines in and of themselves. I'm glad they're being scrutinized - they surely needed it. But lets not pretend that AI is any unsafer today than it was yesterday

No. A proper quality process is not just about being safe, it is being able to demonstrate that you are safe. Without the DGCA being properly staffed, they can't demonstrate safety. They should be safer because there will be independent monitoring and reporting on the status of the airlines.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:49 pm

EASA SAFA ban process appears very much different than FAA IASA downgrade. It has no categories, it is mainly focused on airline/aircraft combinations. So AI may not be banned at all. AI B787 has enough trained FOIs(Two). Same may be the case with 9W/A332s. So it may just ban the airlines/aircraft type with MSCs.
 
747megatop
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:32 am

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 235):
A proper quality process is not just about being safe, it is being able to demonstrate that you are safe.

A proper quality process is about being able to deliver a product that is safe and works as expected. Even if you are able to demonstrate that you are safe but the actual product turns out crappy and unsafe then that isn't acceptable and there is something wrong with the quality process. So, by that yard stick AI is unsafe compared to let's say SQ,EK,9W,BA and QF.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:43 am

Is there any real news on India/DGCA and the European EASA regulator?
http://www.financialexpress.com/news...eu-downgrades-dgca-experts/1222907

“We will have to wait and see whether the regulators from other countries downgrade DGCA or not. This would be a political move as many of the countries, who could potentially downgrade DGCA for failing to comply by the ICAO regulations, want more market access and bilateral ties with India. So we will be in a bargaining position and decisions by other regulators to downgrade us will be taken after a lot of considerations,” he added.

Sigh... I thought downgrades were about safety and not politics...

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 228):
- If a Billionaire buys G650 and DGCA registers without training one of their FSIs on G650 it is non-complaint.

India is in now way required to register the G650. That billionaire could afford to keep the registration in Switzerland or another nation that has the 'economies of scale' to register the G650. The DGCA shouldn't be registering types they do not understand. Every other nation faces the exact same issue (including the FAA for the USA). Many outsource to the FAA or EASA audits of aircraft that are in numbers too small to justify local hires and charge accordingly for the registration.

This scenario has too many easy solutions...

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 228):
- Any Indian can buy a GA kit plane, and DGCA registers it is non-complaint.

   Kit planes are under a very different set of rules per ICAO. There is a reason their insurance rates are much higher... Besides, all the DGCA needs to do is require "Experimental" be written above the door and the compliance issue goes away...

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 230):
Amazing how many things got 'done' in January.

But they weren't 'done.' To much required hiring and then training personnel. In many cases, only the approval to hire was completed in January. India didn't make nearly as much progress as they were making noise. But... the DGCA seems to be finally making preparations for the progress. With improved process and procedures in place,

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 234):
FRA is the real *A hub; the US cities are more or less spokes for non-Americas travel. LH screwed up by courting AI over 9W.

FRA is the "jewel hub" of *A. However, I don't think LH screwed up by courting 9W. LH couldn't have known EY would buy out enough of 9W to shirt their strategy dramatically away from any proposal to use a German hub. It was a strategic decision that was thrown a 'curve ball.'

It all depends on the EASA rating of India anyway. If EASA downgrades India, the code shares must cease which means no Indian airline would provide much value to an alliance except for partners in the Russian or Chinese registrations.

I personally hope this is resolved soon. Better processes and procedures in India will only benefit everyone in the long run.

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747megatop
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:34 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 239):
downgrades were about safety

Sigh, don't get me started again. Makes me wonder why India was in CAT-1 to begin with. And, I don't want to repeat myself on why some other countries I listed earlier on were in CAT-1. I think we need a separate thread to dicuss FAA&ICAO audits; how CAT-1, CAT-2 translate to safety (actually working safety in terms of lesser crashes and not just demonstrated on paper in an audit). Obviously some folks here did not like it so i rest my case  .

[Edited 2014-02-04 20:38:50]
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:10 pm

Singapore CAAS starts more stringent ramp inspections, no restrictions.

"Indian carriers flying to Singapore are subject to more stringent inspections following US Federal Aviation Administration's decision to downgrade India's safety ranking. However there are no restrictions imposed on Indian carriers, the Civil Aviation Authority of Singapore has said. "

http://www.business-standard.com/art...s-in-singapore-114020501140_1.html

Now that Singapore found a work around, EASA, JCAB will probably do the same. UAE GCCA and Qatar CAA are going to ignore completely. Transport Canada is going ban India, but as per Colin Quinn not a big issue.

[Edited 2014-02-05 06:43:18]
 
ytz
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:26 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 238):
Sigh... I thought downgrades were about safety and not politics...

That's the Indian mentality at work. They always think it's political and can be negotiated. Just like you can "negotiate" a speeding ticket or a seat belt fine with a cop in India. Everything is always negotiable. And that's why they didn't think there was any urgency in addressing the FAA's concerns.
 
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Revelation
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:29 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 239):
The DGCA shouldn't be registering types they do not understand.

You expect DGCA to be about aviation or something?

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 240):
Singapore CAAS starts more stringent ramp inspections, no restrictions.

You see, Singapore does hate India, and is in cahoots with the ME3.
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:43 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 5):
Seems to be pretty easy to resolve, no?

Can Regulatory offer the salary scale as Airlines....

Quoting golfradio (Reply 13):

It would be in India's best interest to get back Cat 1.

True.
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ytz
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:16 pm

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 216):
I question if the US government is trying to support the ME3 carriers by downgrading India.

By giving Indian authorities a headstart with warnings over several years and from other international regulators as well?
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:41 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 238):
Sigh... I thought downgrades were about safety and not politics...

Not always. Politics and commercial interests take preference. Once the sanctity of audit is gone it is just a political game.

I never said India/DGCA is not at fault and shouldn't fix issues. If other countries find a workaround (it appears they are) and India invokes reciprocity, US carriers and aviation sector are going to loose major share in a growing market. Is it really necessary?

Read this article by one of our members.
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalk...nearly-lost-its-air-safety-rating/
Now there is talk CASA still didn't address those issues.

Here is an excert from WSJ article
"The U.S. agency previously prodded Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and other countries to fix similar shortcomings without taking formal action or singling them out for downgrades. "

Read WSJ article about "FAA Downgrades India's Safety Ranking" It is behind paywall.

Talking about safety, every year there are 400+ fatalities in 1400+ GA accidents here. NTSB is trying address this situation for a decade.

[Edited 2014-02-05 14:50:51]
 
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:20 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 245):
Once the sanctity of audit is gone it is just a political game.

Right, the bad bully US really has nothing better to do with its time than push sacred India down.

Give it a rest....
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golfradio
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:40 am

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 245):

There's the FAA's story on one side and the DGCA's story on the other. The real truth lies somewhere in between. Only people in the know can comment about motives and such. We can just speculate and get our knickers in a knot. FAA has made it's decision and it's rightfully there's to make (motives not withstanding). If India thinks it is in it's best interest to play along then good or it can flip the finger and let the chips fall where they may. It sure will be interesting to see what they do. Honestly I do not think there is any way the DGCA is going to be able to hire 75 inspectors. The airlines themselves are so short of qualified captains that they are hiring retired pilots now. My own uncle has been recalled by AI out of retirement. So even that pool is drying up. The only way would be to outsource the inspection which I doubt is going to be easy to pass through the parliament. Just look at the storm that expat captains cause in the country. Looks like Cat 2 it is for a while.
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Web500sjc
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:14 am

Quoting golfradio (Reply 247):
There's the FAA's story on one side and the DGCA's story on the other. The real truth lies somewhere in between. Only people in the know can comment about motives and such. We can just speculate and get our knickers in a knot. FAA has made it's decision and it's rightfully there's to make (motives not withstanding). If India thinks it is in it's best interest to play along then good or it can flip the finger and let the chips fall where they may. It sure will be interesting to see what they do. Honestly I do not think there is any way the DGCA is going to be able to hire 75 inspectors. The airlines themselves are so short of qualified captains that they are hiring retired pilots now. My own uncle has been recalled by AI out of retirement. So even that pool is drying up. The only way would be to outsource the inspection which I doubt is going to be easy to pass through the parliament. Just look at the storm that expat captains cause in the country. Looks like Cat 2 it is for a while.



sory to give DTWt2HYD some evidence but, from this article, http://m.hoganlovells.com/files/Publ...8198-992c320c7ba3/11_faa_iasa9.pdf , that was published in the international bar association in october 1997. This article questions the political impartiality in picking which countries the FAA was auditing at the time, such as not auditing China or Russia. But the article does not dispute the impartiality of the findings of the audit. So politics may play a role in these IASA audits.


does any one know how often the FAA conducts audits of countries?
I found an FAA source from 2000 that said biennially, but I don't think that holds true any more. I assume that the FAA won't come back 3 months after the last audit in order to give a country their Cat 1 back.

edit name

[Edited 2014-02-05 17:19:15]
Boiler Up!
 
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lightsaber
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:56 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 242):
You expect DGCA to be about aviation or something?

   I needed that.  
Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 248):
such as not auditing China or Russia.

Err... the USA, UK, Russia, and China would create quite a furor if they started auditing each other. Basically, thanks to being on the 'right' side and a significant contributor to WW2, they are the ones who set the rules. Btu, they are (mostly) also the ones who have proven they will police themselves.

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 248):
I assume that the FAA won't come back 3 months after the last audit in order to give a country their Cat 1 back.

The audits are every 2 years to keep CAT 1. They can be more often to recover. But the FAA won't send a team until they have paper showing its worth returning. e.g., the DGCA hired enough people.

Quoting golfradio (Reply 247):
The only way would be to outsource the inspection which I doubt is going to be easy to pass through the parliament.

That is the GoI's call.

I'm still waiting for the responses from EASA and Japan...

Singapore's response works well for them. Not to see about AI and *A. EASA isn't just LH, so I would expect AB and AF/KL to play spoiler... This will get interesting.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 245):
I never said India/DGCA is not at fault and shouldn't fix issues. If other countries find a workaround (it appears they are) and India invokes reciprocity, US carriers and aviation sector are going to loose major share in a growing market. Is it really necessary?

Necessary? If it is what is required to have the DGCA improve.

It will be interesting to see how US carriers react thanks to the loss of code shares. AA is not liking this due to 9W... I'm not sure about DL... UA is hurting a number of ways.


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