bharathkv
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:58 pm

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:07 am

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 248):
sory to give DTWt2HYD some evidence but, from this article, http://m.hoganlovells.com/files/Publ...8198-992c320c7ba3/11_faa_iasa9.pdf , that was published in the international bar association in october 1997. This article questions the political impartiality in picking which countries the FAA was auditing at the time, such as not auditing China or Russia. But the article does not dispute the impartiality of the findings of the audit. So politics may play a role in these IASA audits.

Thanks a lot for pointing it out. I was also saying there is some politics involved but thanks for bringing some evidence. To all the US & FAA supporters are we guys on the same page at least now?

Quoting ytz (Reply 241):
That's the Indian mentality at work. They always think it's political and can be negotiated. Just like you can "negotiate" a speeding ticket or a seat belt fine with a cop in India. Everything is always negotiable. And that's why they didn't think there was any urgency in addressing the FAA's concerns.

Even after a weekend of debate between members here some still talk about Indian mentality etc. I mean can we stop talking about Indian mentality etc and acknowledge that you cannot blame a whole society by looking at a few incidents? I would appreciate it.
 
dtw2hyd
Topic Author
Posts: 7973
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:21 am

Quoting golfradio (Reply 247):
Looks like Cat 2 it is for a while.

Any one who involved in audits can easily read message US is trying to send in their observations. Either consultants(I am sure all major 4 US consulting firms are minting money from MoCA/DGCA) are not experienced with audits or they don't want to tell king has no clothes. DGCA still thinking they will be complaint in 30 days is a real concern.

I wish FAA told DGCA point blank, "you are no where close to being complaint".

It appears oversimplified rating system is the issue. While other countries are able to get away with just ramp inspections while pursuing their commercial interests, US is locked out.

For those "safety" is paramount concern, read these stats. See Table 10 fatality numbers for last 20 years.

http://www.ntsb.gov/data/aviation_stats.html

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 248):

Thanks. Read link in 245. I didn't want to this thread to become about other countries, so I didn't post the links earlier. Now this will get locked anyway.
 
RickNRoll
Posts: 1863
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:30 am

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:32 am

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 237):
A proper quality process is about being able to deliver a product that is safe and works as expected. Even if you are able to demonstrate that you are safe but the actual product turns out crappy and unsafe then that isn't acceptable and there is something wrong with the quality process. So, by that yard stick AI is unsafe compared to let's say SQ,EK,9W,BA and QF.

No, I was commenting on the idea that if things appear to be safe, then there is no need for demonstrating that safe procedures are being followed or that independent checks are required. A quality process requires all of these.
 
747megatop
Posts: 1780
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:56 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 249):
Err... the USA, UK, Russia, and China would create quite a furor if they started auditing each other. Basically, thanks to being on the 'right' side and a significant contributor to WW2, they are the ones who set the rules.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 249):

Btu, they are (mostly) also the ones who have proven they will police themselves.

Really? Sorry, i disagree about Russia. Do you have any evidence to the fact that Russia has proven they will police themselves? Some information that is publicly not available but you are privy to? The reason i ask is the publicly available information disproves that. Russia is one of the most corrupt nations out there along with other corrupt countries.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...russia-crash-idUSBRE83102N20120402
http://en.ria.ru/russia/20131205/185...r-2-Years--Chief-Investigator.html
http://worldblog.nbcnews.com/_news/2...h-leads-to-more-hand-wringing?lite

China, well, everything gets shoved under the carpet but their aviation safety is much better than India or Russia so they must be doing something right. Anyways, China has a huge clout in the world, they can make rules & change or bend rules as needed.
 
dtw2hyd
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Posts: 7973
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:20 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 249):
Necessary? If it is what is required to have the DGCA improve.

Are you sure. Lets see what India did so far.

1) Allowed A380.
2) India announced Visa on arrival for entire world (excluding 8 countries) at 26 airports.

US carriers won't be getting any additional revenue. DGCA never did any ramp inspection of foreign carriers. Now with additional FSI they want to do more checks. They are probably hiring paramedical to do medical inspection of foreign crews. FSI may be in short supply, but India has enough medical students.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: FAA Downgrades India

Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:43 am

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 251):
For those "safety" is paramount concern, read these stats. See Table 10 fatality numbers for last 20 years.

The rates for crashes are not good in India per this website:
http://www.airdisaster.com/statistics/

Please, its easy to find information on Australia, US, Canada, the UK, and New Zealand.
http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/32897/b20060002.pdf

Where is the *easy* to find data for India? My experience is that data that is hidden... is too ugly to see the light of day. The commercial aviation sector of India has a bad safety record... I wonder how GA is...

For the USA, I see a nice trend towards fewer accidents in general aviation (accidents per flight hour) from the #10 table. What are the equivalent numbers for India (please provide the link)?

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 253):
Do you have any evidence to the fact that Russia has proven they will police themselves?

There is a reason I put in "mostly." Russia gets an out due to very old WW2 rules (recall, ICAO was set up by the allies during the war). I know they have troubles. But the rules aren't about to change.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 253):
Russia is one of the most corrupt nations out there along with other corrupt countries.

Yes. All corrupt countries are dangerous. The corruption Index of India isn't so hot...

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 253):
China, well, everything gets shoved under the carpet but their aviation safety is much better than India or Russia so they must be doing something right.

Do you have charts of the statistics? Per my first link, China Airlines has a really bad *rate* of accidents... So I think China is included in 'corrupt countries have more aviation accidents.'

http://www.transparency.org/cpi2012/results

Higher is better for the 'corruption index' (no corruption is a score of 100):

New Zealand, Finland, and Denmark: 90 (tied for least corrupt nations in the world)
USA: 73
China: 39
India: 36
Mexico: 34 (an example many Americans are familiar with)
Russia, Iran: 28
North Korea, Somalia, and Afghanistan: 8 (tied for most corrupt nations in the world)

By the way, one can pretty much correlate a country's economic output per citizen with corruption index, level of education, level of infrastructure, and tax rates.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 254):
Are you sure. Lets see what India did so far.

1) Allowed A380.
2) India announced Visa on arrival for entire world (excluding 8 countries) at 26 airports.

What's that have to do with the DCGA improving safety inspections? That is more opening trade (bilateral) discussions. Corruption permeating through air safety creates problems such as the Air Tran crash.

And from my link, Air Tran has a statistically better safety record than AI, but Air Tran had to do a *major* overhaul to get people to keep flying it! Ok... irrelevant as they are now part of WN who has a great safety record, but it shows how far aviation safety in India needs to go.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 254):
US carriers won't be getting any additional revenue.

What's your point? The FAA is independent so they can make safety decisions without regard to such details. The DCGA should be equally independent.


Ligthsaber
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iowaman
Posts: 3864
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 2:29 am

RE: FAA Downgrades India

Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:20 am

Due to length, this thread will be archived. Part two is opened up here: FAA Downgrades India Part 2 (by iowaman Feb 5 2014 in Civil Aviation)

Any posts made after this one will be removed for housekeeping purposes and can be reposted in part two.

[Edited 2014-02-05 21:23:02]

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