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Delta777Jet
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Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:32 am

I was wondering why Hughes did not merge Hughes Air West with TWA and instead sold it to Republic in 1980 ! Hughes Air West would have been an nice addition to TWA Network back then in the West?
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Polot
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:38 am

Quoting delta777jet (Thread starter):
I was wondering why Hughes did not merge Hughes Air West with TWA and instead sold it to Republic in 1980 ! Hughes Air West would have been an nice addition to TWA Network back then in the West?

Hughes did not own TWA when he purchased Air West and died several years before Republic merged with Hughes Air West.
 
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:40 am

Basically Republic was stupid for buying Hughes Air West from the Summa Corporation which I think was a holding company for Hughes Tool Company. If I have my figures correct, Republic paid 25 million dollars for Hughes Air West and became responsible for the 825 million dollar debt that Hughes Air West owed. It nearly put Republic Airlines into bankruptcy.   
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:21 am

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 2):

Basically Republic was stupid for buying Hughes Air West from the Summa Corporation which I think was a holding company for Hughes Tool Company.

Summa was created as a holding company for Howard Hughes' business assets after selling off Hughes Tools in 1972. Summa in the years following Hughes' death sold off everything but their land holdings and became a real estate developer as Hughes had bought huge tracts of land in the Vegas Valley over the years. The company is best known for Summerlin, their planned community on the west side of Las Vegas and renamed themselves The Howard Hughes Corporation and over the years was acquired by Rouse and later General Growth before being spun off in 2010.

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 2):
If I have my figures correct, Republic paid 25 million dollars for Hughes Air West and became responsible for the 825 million dollar debt that Hughes Air West owed

$38.5 million was the price tag.
 
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:24 pm

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 2):
Basically Republic was stupid for buying Hughes Air West from the Summa Corporation which I think was a holding company for Hughes Tool Company. If I have my figures correct, Republic paid 25 million dollars for Hughes Air West and became responsible for the 825 million dollar debt that Hughes Air West owed. It nearly put Republic Airlines into bankruptcy.

IIRC North Central/Republic had loans tied to prime interest rate plus a point or two higher. Stephen Wolf came in and turned RC around, at the same time UA bought Pan Am's Asia routes. NWA was unhappy about that and approached RC. RC said lets's dance. It was a sad day when RC/NW combined, operations that first day was nuts. (I am a duck)
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:30 am

In those says, my only access to aviation news was AW&ST in the city library. I do remember a story where a Republic exec mentioned that Hughes made an over-the-transom offer for Republic to take the airline at a 'price they couldn't refuse'...

Thirry years on, two points come to mind: 1. If you have a M&A department worth its salt, there is no such thing as an over-the-transom offer, and 2. With an 825M USD debt, I would have found a way to refuse it...
 
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:54 pm

Quoting srbmod (Reply 3):
. The company is best known for Summerlin, their planned community on the west side of Las Vegas and renamed themselves The Howard Hughes Corporation and over the years was acquired by Rouse and later General Growth before being spun off in 2010.

Best known by whom? Summa has had its hands in many things, including "manganese nodules."  
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deltacto
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:56 pm

Republic's route map December 1, 1980

http://www.departedflights.com/RC120180.html

http://www.departedflights.com/RC120180r.jpg

Republic's route map April 28, 1985

http://www.departedflights.com/RC042885.html

http://www.departedflights.com/RC042885r.jpg

Hardly any of the Hughes Airwest routes left!
 
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:44 pm

The merger seemed to be pretty pointless considering all of Hughes Airwest was mostly gone within 5yrs. Why didn't Republic try to build a hub out west? PHX & LAS would have made decent hubs, with a focus city in BOI.
 
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:04 pm

Quoting thegoldenargosy (Reply 8):
The merger seemed to be pretty pointless considering all of Hughes Airwest was mostly gone within 5yrs. Why didn't Republic try to build a hub out west? PHX & LAS would have made decent hubs, with a focus city in BOI.

Airline history, particularly the past 25 years, is full of pointless mergers:

TW->AA
QQ->AA
OC->AA
PS->US
MC->WN
KN->WN
TZ->WN
UT->AF
NA->PA
YX->F9
FL->CO

Etc.

[Edited 2014-02-03 14:07:37]
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deltacto
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:08 pm

I know this is a thread about Republic and Hughes Airwest, but Republic cut a lot of Southern's network in Atlanta

Southern served over 20 cities from ATL right before the NC/SO merger

http://www.departedflights.com/RC070179p2.html

By 1985, Republic served just MEM, MSP, and DTW

http://www.departedflights.com/RC042885p3.html


They built up MEM instead
 
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:33 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 9):
Airline history, particularly the past 25 years, is full of pointless mergers:

Well this was the first of the pointless mergers I guess.
 
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:38 pm

Quoting thegoldenargosy (Reply 11):
Well this was the first of the pointless mergers I guess.

Don't forget about Pan Am's acquisition of National in 1980.
 
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:57 pm

Quoting sunking737 (Reply 4):
Stephen Wolf came in and turned RC around, at the same time UA bought Pan Am's Asia routes. NWA was unhappy about that and approached RC.

Actually Stephen Wolf came in and tried to turn RC around. But with the purchase of new aircraft RC acquired a lot of debt of their own. Stephen Wolf realized that the finances were dire and the best thing to do for RC was to get it ready to be sold to NW. Hence the MTM livery. All NW would have to do is add a red tail to it.

First NC & SO merged. Then about a year later RW came into the fold. But RW had a lot of labor problems that came along with the airline. And after the NW merger there was quite a feeling of animosity between the "ducks" and the "red coats" due to how the RC employees were treated at the time of the merger with NW. That lasted for years.
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:39 am

Quoting type-rated (Reply 13):
And after the NW merger there was quite a feeling of animosity between the "ducks" and the "red coats" due to how the RC employees were treated at the time of the merger with NW. That lasted for years.

I know I was there. Enough said.
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:33 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 9):
Airline history, particularly the past 25 years, is full of pointless mergers:

TW->AA
QQ->AA
OC->AA
PS->US
MC->WN
KN->WN
TZ->WN
UT->AF
NA->PA
YX->F9
FL->CO

ATA (TZ) did not merge into Southwest, nor AirTran (FL) into Continental.
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:46 am

There are two things I have to say about the "useless" merger. First, I absolutly hated it. I was proud of how we had come from a carrier that had about 30 cities (Pacific) to what a merger of real Regionals had made. I hated it for the drastic changes we had to go through but on retireing I realized that I'd been with NW longer than any and all the predecessors. NW offered us the longest employment period under one banner we'd known. Possibly we at first were not the proudest lot but after 41 years in a career that's just does not seem available anymore, I sure appreciated that merger.
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:05 am

Quoting homsar (Reply 15):
ATA (TZ) did not merge into Southwest, nor AirTran (FL) into Continental.

Well I think WN obtained some TZ assest thru bk court, and in this case, FL refers to original Frontier I believe.

Also, I think KN-WN was a good one. Expanded their reach out west although some would say SLC didn't become what they had hoped, but that is OK.
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:35 pm

Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 17):
Well I think WN obtained some TZ assest thru bk court, and in this case, FL refers to original Frontier I believe.

The original Frontier did not merge with CO though. They merged with PeopleExpress, who CO purchased about a year later. I wouldn't call the PE/CO merger pointless because it led to the EWR hub (and at the time they still had a DEN hub so the FL operations were not completely pointless).
 
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:11 pm

Quoting homsar (Reply 15):
ATA (TZ) did not merge into Southwest, nor AirTran (FL) into Continental.

Yes.

Quoting Polot (Reply 18):
The original Frontier did not merge with CO though. They merged with PeopleExpress, who CO purchased about a year later.

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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:47 pm

A lot of these mergers were the result of airline CEOs acting like 7 year olds. They didn't need it, they didn't want it .... but they sure didn't wan't the "other guy" to have it either, so they jumped in.

I always shrugged at AA buying AirCal, and US buying PSA. It sure doesn't make sense now, but, it didn't make any sense then either. And as noted with the elimination of Hughes Airwest's routes by Republic, same thing happened post merger with AA and US. So ... why?

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 12):
Don't forget about Pan Am's acquisition of National in 1980.

This one actually did make sense, at the time.

Looking back, and seeing deregulation shortly after the merger, we now know it was not necessary. But, before the merger, and during the decades leading up to it, Pan American desparately wanted US domestic routes. And, applications after applications were denied. This was one way they could achieve that goal.
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:56 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 20):
I always shrugged at AA buying AirCal, and US buying PSA. It sure doesn't make sense now, but, it didn't make any sense then either. And as noted with the elimination of Hughes Airwest's routes by Republic, same thing happened post merger with AA and US. So ... why?

I can answer that question in one word, Southwest. Southwest came in, with its lower cost structure, and ran US and AA out of the West Coast. DL dropped what was left of Western's point-to-point flying. UA was the only carrier that decided to fight WN, with Shuttle by United.

That led WN to start flying longer routes instead of soley short hops.

Many times, a merger looks good on paper, but a recession comes along. Or an LCC starts to build up operations in a region.

The original Midway bought the old PHL hub of Eastern. Then the Gulf War and recession came along, which depressed traffic and drove ML into bankruptcy. If ML had done nothing, or if the buying opportunity had come a year earlier or later, it would have avoided bankruptcy.

If you look at the RP route map, before it boght RW, it was still primarily flying the northern Great Plains, the Great Lakes, the Deep South, and expanding service into the Northeast. Building a route structure west of the Rockies would have taken quite some time. Buying an establish carrier, on paper, made sense. But, you had AA expanding, with its purchase of Air Cal, UA with a long-time presence in the West, and Western with its SLC hub. NW had its large presence at SEA. Even DL had a presence on the West Coast. So, as RP created its hubs at MSP, DTW, and MEM, I'm not sure there was a place for the old RW operation to create a hub.
 
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:53 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 20):

This one actually did make sense, at the time.

Looking back, and seeing deregulation shortly after the merger, we now know it was not necessary. But, before the merger, and during the decades leading up to it, Pan American desparately wanted US domestic routes. And, applications after applications were denied. This was one way they could achieve that goal.

I would agree with you if Pan Am and National had merged ten years before. But surely the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978 and Pan Am's horrendous balance sheet at the time should both have made the deal seem unwise even at the time.
 
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:16 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 21):
I'm not sure there was a place for the old RW operation to create a hub.

I believe that initially after taking over RW, Republic had looked at PHX as a western hub. Hughes was well established in PHX and had begun to grow east from there (MKE, DSM, HOU) after deregulation.
Interestingly, I always look back at America West as the Hughes Airwest that might have been.

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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:55 pm

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 22):
Quoting longhauler (Reply 20):

This one actually did make sense, at the time.

Looking back, and seeing deregulation shortly after the merger, we now know it was not necessary. But, before the merger, and during the decades leading up to it, Pan American desparately wanted US domestic routes. And, applications after applications were denied. This was one way they could achieve that goal.

I would agree with you if Pan Am and National had merged ten years before.

Even 10 years earlier a Pan Am/National merger would have been a bad idea. Pan Am needed a carrier with an extensive domestic route system, especially between major west coast and interior U.S. cities cities and NYC. National's pre-deregulation route authorities were of little help to Pan Am.

National's 1969 route network:
http://timetableimages.com/ttimages/na/na69/na69-01.jpg
 
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:01 pm

Quoting Tomassjc (Reply 23):
Interestingly, I always look back at America West as the Hughes Airwest that might have been.

Very true....even more compelling is the AS route map today vs the RW of yesterday.
 
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:19 pm

Quoting deltacto (Reply 7):
Republic's route map December 1, 1980
Quoting N328KF (Reply 9):
Airline history, particularly the past 25 years, is full of pointless mergers:

UT->AF

Why do you consider the UT-AF merger pointless? It made a lot of sense in my opinion. It gave AF UTA's extensive African network, the South Pacific, and several significant destinations in Asia (Singapore and Jakarta for example). A single French carrier was also better able to compete with carriers like LH/KL/BA.
 
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:47 am

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 22):
But surely the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978 and Pan Am's horrendous balance sheet at the time should both have made the deal seem unwise even at the time.

Knowing what we know now, yes it does not make sense. But a few points ....

It is hard to look at the "time line" of the merger. The "hard stuff" may well have already been completed by the time deregulation was announced. So that they may not have been able to back out of the deal by the time they realized it was not necessary.

But ... you have to understand the spirit of what was going on during this time. Before deregulation, every single city pair in the US had to be approved. Both to start up and to shut down. Then after the application and approval process, it could take up to 2 years before flying could start. It was a very very cumbersome time for airlines. So, when deregulation began it was a time of extreme jubilation for the airlines.

It was such a change, and such a windfall for airlines no one thought it would last. A lot of airline CEOs thought that the government would change their minds, and when the music stopped, anyone left standing was out of luck. So, they thought it was best to get planes flying between these new cities as soon as possible. That is why Braniff went through the swift expansion they did .... Harding Lawrence feared he may lose his chance.

That being the case, I could see Pan American continuing with the acquisition of National even after it seemed not necessary. They wanted the access to aircraft and employees. If they had tried to expand without National, then they might not have had the routes in place when deregulation was cancelled.

Of course, we now know that did not happen. But they (BN and PA) sure didn't know it at the time. I am sure if they had known deregulation would become cast in stone, BN would have expanded slower, and PA night not have bought NA and expanded into the US market on their own.
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:17 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 27):
BN would have expanded slower

Harding Lawrence thought that the CAB would call for re regulation of the airline industry a few years after it started. He thought that any new expansion routes that BN added would be kept after the re regulation took place. This lead to him acquiring an "expand now or die on the vine" type of approach. Unfortunately for BN deregulation was here to stay.
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:50 pm

Quoting Tomassjc (Reply 23):
I believe that initially after taking over RW, Republic had looked at PHX as a western hub. Hughes was well established in PHX and had begun to grow east from there (MKE, DSM, HOU) after deregulation.
Interestingly, I always look back at America West as the Hughes Airwest that might have been.

That would have been interesting. The problem was that so much of RW's route system was in the Northwest. RW flew a lot of routes in Washington, Idaho, Oregon, and Northern California. IIRC, in the days of regulation, WA and RW were the two largest carriers at SLC. Each had about half of the gates on the south concourse, and RW did fairly quick turns.
 
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:39 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
National's 1969 route network:
http://timetableimages.com/ttimages/na/na69/na69-01.jpg

I always thought that was strange that National's route system pretty much hugged the coasts of the U.S., the furthest inland they flew was LAS. For all that matters, they could have been called "Coastal Airlines". Was there a reason for this route structure?
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:51 pm

Quoting type-rated (Reply 30):
I always thought that was strange that National's route system pretty much hugged the coasts of the U.S


You'll note their slogan at the time "Coast to Coast to Coast"
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:31 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 9):

Airline history, particularly the past 25 years, is full of pointless mergers:

In 'my book' Hughes Airwest -> Republic is certainly near the top of the more pointless mergers of the 1980s...following RW -> RC, it took all of 5 years for the ex-RW network to be totally abandoned. All RC really gained was a rapidly aging fleet of DC-9s and a handful of reasonably young 727-200s...for which they took on debt at record high interest rates. While National -> Pan Am was hands-down the most senseless "what's the point?" merger in U.S. airline history, RW -> RC ranks among the 'top 5' in the category.

On the other hand, it is helpful to keep in mind that 'back in the day' in the near-term aftermath of deregulation, "bigger is better" was the mantra of U.S. airlines. With the acquisition of RW, RC could claim to be #1 in cities served in the U.S. and jumped to #4 in overall size...at a time when profitability seemed to take a 'back seat' to glitzier statistics such as ASM, RPM, pax boardings and market share.

Would RC have survived had they not absorbed RW and instead chosen to grow from within? Probably not. Did absorbing RW hasten the demise of RC? Most likely yes.
 
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:32 am

Quoting type-rated (Reply 30):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
National's 1969 route network:
http://timetableimages.com/ttimages/na/na69/na69-01.jpg

I always thought that was strange that National's route system pretty much hugged the coasts of the U.S., the furthest inland they flew was LAS. For all that matters, they could have been called "Coastal Airlines". Was there a reason for this route structure?

Before deregulation adding any new destinations often took several years of red tape and hearings with no guarantee of success.
 
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:17 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 33):
Before deregulation adding any new destinations often took several years of red tape and hearings with no guarantee of success.

Then why did National go out west to LAX, LAS, SFO before taking on the midwest or places like ORD, CLE, MSP, PIT, etc.
You would think they would get better aircraft utilization from those kinds of routes than going way out west?
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:33 am

Quoting type-rated (Reply 34):


Then why did National go out west to LAX, LAS, SFO before taking on the midwest or places like ORD, CLE, MSP, PIT, etc.
You would think they would get better aircraft utilization from those kinds of routes than going way out west?

The history of CAB route hearings is fascinating. In those days airlines would bid on almost anything that came up for a hearing, whether it made sense with their existing system or not. The Southern Transcontinental case was the one in the early 60's that enabled DL and NA to expand westwards. Virtually all the trunk lines at the time were hoping to grab a slice of the new routes. In one of the CAB's better decisions, AA/TW/UA/EA were excluded and the smaller lines DL/NA were awarded the new routes, DFW/ATL for DL and IAH/MSY/MIA/TPA for NA to the west.

In National's case they truly became a "national" carrier with these awards. NA applied for many other new routes to the areas you've mentioned but never scored the routes. Hence, their weird L-shaped route map.
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:06 pm

Quoting type-rated (Reply 34):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 33):Before deregulation adding any new destinations often took several years of red tape and hearings with no guarantee of success.
Then why did National go out west to LAX, LAS, SFO before taking on the midwest or places like ORD, CLE, MSP, PIT, etc.

In the late 1950s, National applied for routes from Florida to the Great Lakes / Midwest. However, the CAB chose to award the routes to airlines that were strong in that part of the country, so TWA was chosen in lieu of National for STL-TPA / MIA, Northwest was chosen in lieu of National for Chicago-Miami, and Capital was chosen in lieu of National for Cleveland / Pittsburgh - Miami.
 
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:13 pm

According to "The Anatomy of An Airline" the very readable history of National up to 1970, NAL was well-positioned to gain routes in the Midwest Service case. But in 1957, a scandal involving station WPST-TV, which was owned by National and bribing the FCC for the operating license ended any chance NAL was going to be awarded routes by another government agency.

http://fadedsignals.com/post/5005134...this-blog-looked-at-the-history-of

[Edited 2014-02-06 09:16:31]
 
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:26 pm

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 35):
The history of CAB route hearings is fascinating. In those days airlines would bid on almost anything that came up for a hearing, whether it made sense with their existing system or not.

The second Southern Transcontinental Route case, in the late 1960s, had (in my mind) the two most non sensical route awards ever: National was given SFO-ATL, even though they did not serve ATL and had minimal presence in SFO, and Northeast was given MIA-LAX. Logically, Eastern should have been given both routes; United (which had a small hub in ATL at the time) would have been another good choice for SFO-ATL.
 
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:47 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 38):
The second Southern Transcontinental Route case, in the late 1960s, had (in my mind) the two most non sensical route awards ever: National was given SFO-ATL, even though they did not serve ATL and had minimal presence in SFO, and Northeast was given MIA-LAX. Logically, Eastern should have been given both routes; United (which had a small hub in ATL at the time) would have been another good choice for SFO-ATL.

I agree. UA would have been a good fit on SFO-ATL. If I recall, it was in this case where UA was awarded LAX-MEM/HSV/BHM nonstops.

Tomas SJC
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:55 pm

Quoting italianflyer (Reply 25):
Very true....even more compelling is the AS route map today vs the RW of yesterday.

Not sure how you get that. The traditional RW was nothing like AS. No SEA to Bay Area or Los Angeles area non-stops. A few QX routes (very few) may overlap but there are almost no common routes between AS of today and RW of yesterday.
 
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:27 pm

Quoting Tomassjc (Reply 39):
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 38):The second Southern Transcontinental Route case, in the late 1960s, had (in my mind) the two most non sensical route awards ever: National was given SFO-ATL, even though they did not serve ATL and had minimal presence in SFO, and Northeast was given MIA-LAX. Logically, Eastern should have been given both routes; United (which had a small hub in ATL at the time) would have been another good choice for SFO-ATL.
I agree. UA would have been a good fit on SFO-ATL. If I recall, it was in this case where UA was awarded LAX-MEM/HSV/BHM nonstops.

You are correct, Tomas. Before this case, the southern end of UA's old Capital routes in the southeast US was not linked to any of UA's cities in the western US; aircraft had to turn around and head back north. After the route award, aircraft flying south on the old Capital routes could flow west to LAX.
 
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:29 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 40):
Not sure how you get that. The traditional AS Fluggeselischaft mbH">RW was nothing like AS. No SEA to Bay Area or Los Angeles area non-stops. A few QX routes (very few) may overlap but there are almost no common routes between AS of today and AS Fluggeselischaft mbH">RW of yesterday.

However,you can't deny that many AS/QX cities were at one time or another served by Air West. RW did serve SJC/OAK-SEA nonstop for awhile with a mix of DC9s and 727-200s
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 41):
After the route award, aircraft flying south on the old Capital routes could flow west to LAX.


I do remember being on a UA 727-100 in the mid 70s SFO-LAX that wound up in DCA after stops in MEM and maybe TYS (?) retracing the old Capital route.

[Edited 2014-02-06 13:31:15]

[Edited 2014-02-06 13:32:01]
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:08 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 38):


The second Southern Transcontinental Route case, in the late 1960s, had (in my mind) the two most non sensical route awards ever: National was given SFO-ATL, even though they did not serve ATL and had minimal presence in SFO, and Northeast was given MIA-LAX. Logically, Eastern should have been given both routes; United (which had a small hub in ATL at the time) would have been another good choice for SFO-ATL.

The "logic" of the CAB was often called into question. NE made a little sense as they served MIA at the time and were desperate for anything outside of their thin routes in New England. Never a CAB favorite, NE somehow scored MIA-LAX. Later, when DL merged with NE, that particular route was never transferred to DL, it went to Western after much hemming and hawing. Earlier, NW refused to merge with NE unless that route was part of the deal. CAB said no, NW walked away.

That SFO-ATL route for NA was always a head scratcher. IIRC UA/AA/TW lobbied hard to keep EA off the west coast at the time.
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:19 am

I think another reason RC wanted RW is that it gave them a west coast presence. But the biggest problem is that they had a bunch of DC9's, a few 727s, Convair 580's and some FH-227's. RC knew that they needed larger aircraft with better range to make use of a coast to coast route system so they ordered some 757's. They already had too much debt from the previous airlines they absorbed and new aircraft were too expensive to acquire. Did RC ever look at the 767 or DC10?
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:37 am

Quoting type-rated (Reply 44):
I think another reason RC wanted RW is that it gave them a west coast presence. But the biggest problem is that they had a bunch of DC9's, a few 727s, Convair 580's and some FH-227's.

RW never operated the FH-227, only the license-built Fairchild F-27. Their predecessor West Coast Airlines, which merged with Pacific Air Lines and Bonanza Air Lines in 1968 to become Air West (Hughes Airwest in 1970), was the world's first F-27 operator in 1958, a couple of months before the first Fokker-built F27 went into service.

And RW didn't operate the Convair 580.
 
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:05 am

I didn't say RW operated the Convair 580, but I did say that RC did. The only thing I mentioned about RW was the west coast presence. FH27/FH227 just a variant.
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:08 am

Quoting type-rated (Reply 46):
I didn't say RW operated the Convair 580, but I did say that RC did. The only thing I mentioned about RW was the west coast presence. FH27/FH227 just a variant.

Your second sentence wasn't very clear whether "they" was referring to RC or RW. I guessed wrong.
 
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RE: Why Was Hughes Airwest Taken Over By Republic?

Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:43 pm

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 43):
Earlier, NW refused to merge with NE unless that route was part of the deal. CAB said no, NW walked away.

That SFO-ATL route for NA was always a head scratcher.

Ironically, after the failed NW / NE merger, Northwest and National agreed to merge. Northwest flew from ATL to TPA and MIA (as an extension of their ORD-ATL route), and if NW and NA had merged, the merged airline could have flown SFO-ATL-TPA / MIA using a combination of NA's and NW's routes.

Northwest's 1971 annual report, which shows up on Ebay from time to time, has a map of what the combined NW / NA's routes would have looked like, in the same style as the NW route maps in NW timetables from the 1970s. The two airlines would have fit together surprisingly well.

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